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The Troubadour
2011-09-23, 10:29 PM
This is a new Essentials-style class I'm making for a Norsemen campaign. Any comments and criticisms are more than welcome! :-)

BERSERKER

CLASS TRAITS:
Role: Striker.
Power Source: Martial/Primal.

Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather, Hide, Chainmail.
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple Melee, Military Melee.
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude.

Hit Points at 1st Level: 17 + Constitution score.
Hit Points per Level Gained: 7.
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier.

Class Skills: Athletics (STR), Endurance (CON), Heal (WIS), Intimidate (CHA), Nature (WIS).
Trained Skills: Three trained Skills at 1st level.

Class Features: Battle Reaver, Warrior's Madness, Weapon Talent, Aspect of the Wild, Extra Aspect of the Wild [7th level], Power Strike, Improved Power Strike [3rd level], Weapon Specialization [7th level], Battle Rage.

BERSERKER CLASS FEATURES:

Battle Reaver: Once per turn when you hit with a melee basic attack, one enemy adjacent to you (two at 11th level, three at 21st level) takes 1d6 damage (or 1d8 damage if you are wielding a two-handed weapon). This damage increases to 2d6 at 11th level (or 2d8) and 3d6 at 21st level (or 3d8).

Warrior's Madness: You gain a +2 bonus to Will against attacks with the Charm or Fear keyword. This bonus increases to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 21st level. In addition, you gain a +5 bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects.

Weapon Talent: As Knight/Slayer class feature.

Aspects of the Wild: You gain two of the following powers of your choice: Aspect of the Hunting Wolf, Aspect of the Lunging Serpent, Aspect of the Majestic Eagle, Aspect of the Raging Bear.

Aspect of the Hunting Wolf (Fighter Utility) - At-Will; Primal, Stance; Minor Action; Personal.
Effect: Until the stance ends, you gain the following benefits: you gain a +2 power bonus to Stealth checks; you gain a +5 power bonus to Perception checks to find tracks; whenever you attack an enemy against whom you have combat advantage with a melee basic attack, you gain a +2 bonus to the damage rolls (+4 at 11th level, +6 at 21st level).

Aspect of the Lunging Serpent (Fighter Utility) - At-Will; Primal, Stance; Minor Action; Personal.
Effect: Until the stance ends, you gain the following benefits: when you shift, you can shift 2 squares; whenever you shift before making a melee basic attack, you gain a +2 power bonus to the attack roll.

Aspect of the Majestic Eagle (Fighter Utility) - At-Will; Primal, Stance; Minor Action; Personal.
Effect: Until the stance ends, you gain the following benefits: you gain a +2 power bonus to Speed; you gain a +5 power bonus to Athletics checks to jump; you gain a +4 power bonus to AC against all opportunity attacks provoked by moving.

Extra Aspect of the Wild: As Hunter/Scout class feature.

Power Strike: As Knight/Slayer class feature.

Improved Power Strike: As Knight/Slayer class feature.

Weapon Specialization: You gain one of the following benefits of your choice: Biting Fang, Crushing Paw, Lunging Spear, Reaving Talon, Soaring Blade.
Biting Fang - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with a heavy or light blade, the targettakes ongoing 3 damage (save ends). The ongoing damage increases to 6 at 11th level, and 9 at 21st level.
Crushing Paw - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with a hammer, you push your target 3 squares.
Lunging Spear - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with a spear or staff, the target is slowed and takes a -2 penalty to AC and Reflexes until the end of your next turn.
Reaving Talon - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with an axe, each enemy adjacent to you (including the target) takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Soaring Blade - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with a heavy or light blade, you can immediately shift 2 squares and make a melee basic attack against a different enemy as a No Action.

Battle Rage - You gain the Battle Rage power.
Battle Rage (Fighter Utility) - Daily; Primal, Rage; Minor Action; Personal.
Effect: Until the rage ends, you deal an extra 1[W] damage with your melee basic attacks. This extra damage increases to 2[W] at 15th level.
In addition, you can make saving throws at the start of your turn against the Dazed, Dominated, Immobilized and Stunned conditions, even if they are against effects that a save can't end. On a save, the effects immediately end, preventing them from affecting you in your current turn.
If you fail your saving throws, you can still make saving throws against the effects at the end of your turn.
Special: You gain one more use of Battle Rage per day at 5th level, and one more use at 9th level.

Mando Knight
2011-09-24, 12:30 AM
I was under the impression that none of the Essentials sub-classes gained any more HP than the other subclasses. Also, that's a lot of HP for a Striker. Especially one as simple as an Essentials Fighter, since they can easily also pump up their AC with either buying Scale proficiency or getting high Dex.

In addition, this class has extreme overlap with the Barbarian.

Furthermore, an attack should never be "no action" since actively doing something like swinging a sword is an action. It should be a free action.

The Troubadour
2011-09-24, 06:47 AM
Thanks a lot for the comments! :-)


I was under the impression that none of the Essentials sub-classes gained any more HP than the other subclasses.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean? If it is "no Essentials subclass has higher HP than the base class", the Bladesinger already has. If it's "no Essentials subclass has higher HP than a standard Defender", I am aware that I'm breaking the mold a bit. Do you think a Striker with Warden-level HP is inherently unbalanced?


Also, that's a lot of HP for a Striker. Especially one as simple as an Essentials Fighter, since they can easily also pump up their AC with either buying Scale proficiency or getting high Dex.

I think AC 17 for a feat is acceptable for a Striker, particularly considering the Monk and the Avenger can easily get higher AC.
As for the HP, a Barbarian - depending on his choice of powers - can easily have a lot more effective HP, considering the amount of temporary Hit Points he can generate for himself.


In addition, this class has extreme overlap with the Barbarian.

As a part-Primal Striker subclass, I'm not surprised by that. I was even considering turning it into a Barbarian Essential subclass. Do you think that would be best?

Seb Wiers
2011-09-24, 12:01 PM
On Battle Rage - the effect lasts "until the rage ends" - when does that happen? Also as a class feature, its available at level 1? I don't think essentials characters typically get a daily at level 1 / as a class feature.

What does "Aspect of the Raging Bear" do?

Soaring Blade - gads, why would anybody take anyting else? Shift AND make a basic attack? Just the shift would be good enough, especially since heavy / light blade offers more versatility than the other specializations (Biting Fang aside, which has a much more moderate power level- isn't useful vs multiple targets, doesn't let you escape grabs, etc).

The Troubadour
2011-09-24, 02:49 PM
On Battle Rage - the effect lasts "until the rage ends" - when does that happen?

All rages last until the end of the encounter.


Also as a class feature, its available at level 1? I don't think essentials characters typically get a daily at level 1 / as a class feature.

Hmmm... True, but I don't want to remove Battle Rage either. Is it overpowered for the Berserker to have both a Striker feature and a Daily power?


What does "Aspect of the Raging Bear" do?

Ooops! Can't believe I forgot it! Here it is:

Aspect of the Raging Bear (Fighter Utility) - At-Will; Primal, Stance; Minor Action; Personal.
Effect: Until the stance ends, you gain the following benefits: you gain a +2 power bonus to Endurance checks; whenever an effect forces you to move through a push, pull or slide, you can move 1 square less than the effect specifies; whenever you hit an enemy with a melee basic attack, you gain 3 temporary Hit Points (6 at 11th level, 9 at 21st level).


Soaring Blade - gads, why would anybody take anyting else? Shift AND make a basic attack? Just the shift would be good enough,(...)

Hmmm... So, if I just removed the additional attack, would it be ok, then?
And in that case, what if I changed Reaving Talon to:

Reaving Talon - Benefit: When you use Power Strike with an axe, each enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

The Troubadour
2011-09-24, 03:22 PM
Brainstorming some new ideas:

Battle Reaver: Once per turn when you hit with a melee basic attack, two enemies (three at 11th level, four at 21st level) adjacent to you other than the target take 2d6 damage (or 2d8 damage if you are wielding a two-handed weapon).

(Would this lower the Berserker's single-target damage too much - enough that it will hurt his performance as a Striker?)

And another one:

Animistic Totem (level 1 feature): Choose one of the following: Bear, Eagle, Serpent, Wolf.
Bear: When you use Power Strike with an axe or hammer, you push the target 3 squares and he takes extra damage equal to your Constitution modifier.

Eagle: When you use Power Strike with a heavy or light blade, the target takes extra damage equal to your Dexterity modifier and you shift 2 squares.

Serpent: When you use Power Strike with a spear or staff, the target is immobilized until the end of your next round and takes extra damage equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Wolf: When you use Power Strike with a heavy or light blade, the target takes extra damage equal to your Dexterity modifier and ongoing 3 damage (save ends). The ongoing damage increases to 6 at 11th level, and 9 at 21st level.

(In this case, instead of Weapon Specialization, the Berserker would gain another use of Power Strike at level 7.)

Mando Knight
2011-09-24, 04:05 PM
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean? If it is "no Essentials subclass has higher HP than the base class", the Bladesinger already has. If it's "no Essentials subclass has higher HP than a standard Defender", I am aware that I'm breaking the mold a bit. Do you think a Striker with Warden-level HP is inherently unbalanced?
I thought the Bladesinger might have more HP, but I don't have access to it so I wasn't sure.

Yes, giving a Striker both more HP than most Defenders and the ability to easily ramp up its defenses to at least average for its role and level without strong drawbacks (Barbarians have an incentive to stick to lighter armor, and their AC is usually relatively low because of it) is essentially inherently unbalanced. Remember that your base HP determines your healing surge value as well. It may only be a couple of points at first, but it'll add up fairly quickly, especially compared to other characters with similar AC.

On top of this, you give them a scaling bonus to Will (though admittedly against a rather limited set of powers) and increased accuracy.

My real question, though is this: why? What makes this sub-class in particular different enough from the Barbarian and the existing Fighter sub-classes to justify its creation?

The Troubadour
2011-09-25, 01:14 AM
Yes, giving a Striker both more HP than most Defenders and the ability to easily ramp up its defenses to at least average for its role and level without strong drawbacks (Barbarians have an incentive to stick to lighter armor, and their AC is usually relatively low because of it) is essentially inherently unbalanced.

Hmmm... Well, better to err on the side of caution - I'll lower his HP to Fighter levels again.


On top of this, you give them (...) increased accuracy.

The Slayer and the Scout also have the same accuracy bonus. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, theirs even increases at higher levels.
By the way, what if Warrior's Madness stopped at a fixed +2 Will, instead of scaling with tier?


My real question, though is this: why? What makes this sub-class in particular different enough from the Barbarian and the existing Fighter sub-classes to justify its creation?

I wanted a class to represent - both conceptually and mechanically - the legendary berserkers of Norse mythology. The Battlerager Fighter isn't enough of a Striker and lacks the primal elements, while the Barbarian is too overtly fantastic with its rages and plays a bit too erratically - he's either knee-deep in the enemies' blood, full of temporary HPs and charging like crazy, or he's surrounded and being mercilessly whacked by Team Monster.

Some of those elements will only be represented by new Berserker Utility powers, admittedly, but I want a class that can consistently take a hit AND be good at facing several enemies at once (something the Slayer isn't, at least not at base level) AND display meaningful - in terms of both fluff and mechanics - "animal abilities", up to and including shapechange.

I don't know. Perhaps I could simply make a class feature for the Weaponmaster Fighter that replaces Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority with something like Battle Rage? And/or turn this into a Theme?

Yakk
2011-09-25, 07:31 AM
First, I'd rewrite your features as powers. It is more essentials-esque, and it reduces verbage a lot.

Warrior's Madness: Just make it a bonus to will. As it stands it is fiddly (for a defence booster).

Battle Reaver: Make this a power that is a free action, once per (turn) or (round).

This is also a lot like the monk flurry.

The two/one handed weapon stuff: is this intended to make a viable one-handed version? If so, how?

Your stances look like Ranger stances.

You tossed on a nearly full-power daily stance on top of an essentials based martial class.

Soaring Blade: free action attacks are limited to 1/turn on purpose. You do know that as written, and with two targets, you could attack each twice on your first turn?

---

I'd back up a moment and think of a mechanical concept to base the class around.

It looks to me like you said "lets take slayer and hunter, and mix them up, then add in an essentialized barbarian rage".

Mando Knight
2011-09-25, 01:33 PM
The Slayer and the Scout also have the same accuracy bonus. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, theirs even increases at higher levels.
I'd have to double-check that. Slayer has a relatively weak Striker mechanic compared to the stronger Strikers, though (unless you really pump Dex), and they don't have Warden-level HP. Knocking the Berserker's HP back down to Fighter level would be good enough for me at this point.

By the way, what if Warrior's Madness stopped at a fixed +2 Will, instead of scaling with tier?
A fixed bonus would be much better. Less fiddly, and at higher levels represents a relative resistance to such effects rather than "Tiamat? Ha ha, yeah, sorry. Not scared."

I wanted a class to represent - both conceptually and mechanically - the legendary berserkers of Norse mythology. The Battlerager Fighter isn't enough of a Striker and lacks the primal elements, while the Barbarian is too overtly fantastic with its rages and plays a bit too erratically - he's either knee-deep in the enemies' blood, full of temporary HPs and charging like crazy, or he's surrounded and being mercilessly whacked by Team Monster.
This Berserker is fairly overtly more fantastic than the Norse berserkers, as well. Adds in a bit more totemic influence than I thought they actually had. And actually, the Barbarian's swingy nature (either topped up on tHP and hacking away, or chewed on like he's Worf) is pretty close to what I think of when I think of berserkers: either unstoppable and crazy or a chewy bag of meat, depending on whether or not he's in a rage.

Also, the Slayer, though it lacks the primal bits, does function pretty well as a berserker-type Fighter. Several of their more damage-heavy stances refer to some kind of battle-rage, and they're strong, fast, tough, and use the biggest weapon they can get their hands on. Then you can just MC Barbarian to pick up a bit more primal influence if you need it...

The Troubadour
2011-09-25, 01:36 PM
I'd back up a moment and think of a mechanical concept to base the class around.

It looks to me like you said "lets take slayer and hunter, and mix them up, then add in an essentialized barbarian rage".

Well, I suppose I'd like to build a class around the following mechanical concepts, in order of importance:

1) a stance-like power that gives out free saving throws/saving throw bonuses against hindering effects - things like daze, dominate, immobilize and stun;
2) ability to fight multiple opponents at once - not as an AOE blaster like the Sorcerer - instead of being an expert at focusing fire like the Ranger;
3) staying power, either through naturally high HP, damage resistance of some kind or temporary HP generation.

I'd also like to liberally sprinkle the class with Primal flavour in the form of Utility powers - powers closer to the Druid's in form and function than the Barbarian's or Ranger's.

So far, it seems like it would be easier for me to Essentialize the Fighter - or perhaps the Barbarian - to achieve those objectives. Am I wrong?

The Troubadour
2011-09-25, 02:06 PM
A fixed bonus would be much better. Less fiddly, and at higher levels represents a relative resistance to such effects rather than "Tiamat? Ha ha, yeah, sorry. Not scared."

I added the scaling because, at first, the Berserker would be strongly encouraged to always pump Strength and Constitution, which would leave his Will behind and render the bonus meaningless past the Heroic tier.


This Berserker is fairly overtly more fantastic than the Norse berserkers, as well.

Well, of course! This is D&D, after all, it has to be at least somewhat fantastic. :-) But there's a difference between, say, a supernatural resistance to being mind-controlled, and emitting silvery flames from your every pore while raging.


Adds in a bit more totemic influence than I thought they actually had.

Hmmm... Sort of. The bear, the eagle, the serpent and the wolf, they're all animals associated with Odin, and while this is still a debated topic in History, at least in Literature the berserkers were presented as being strongly linked to both Odin and animal totems.


Also, the Slayer, though it lacks the primal bits, does function pretty well as a berserker-type Fighter. Several of their more damage-heavy stances refer to some kind of battle-rage, and they're strong, fast, tough, and use the biggest weapon they can get their hands on. Then you can just MC Barbarian to pick up a bit more primal influence if you need it...

The Slayer is also a top-notch archer and expected to wear heavy armor. And for every stance that refers to a kind of battle-rage, there's another that refers to cunning tactics, duellist's prowess or something of the sort. And the Barbarian's "Primal-ness" involves generating extra HPs, marking enemies, shouting with the voice of thunder, things like that; I want something more like "partly becoming an animal until you actually do become an animal".

Mando Knight
2011-09-25, 02:23 PM
I added the scaling because, at first, the Berserker would be strongly encouraged to always pump Strength and Constitution, which would leave his Will behind and render the bonus meaningless past the Heroic tier.
Not really. Yes, his Will will lag, but there's plenty of means to boost it, and it won't be too far behind other characters that boost stats other than their Wis/Cha.

Also, there really isn't any reason for the Berserker to go with Str/Con, except that it'll boost his HP and not require him to get Melee Training. Con/Dex, Str/Dex, Str/Wis, etc. are also valid choices, since they boost two NADs instead of just one, and the class's only stat dependency is for its melee basic attack.

and emitting silvery flames from your every pore while raging.
That is mostly fluff, and you can usually just pick a different Rage instead.

The Troubadour
2011-09-25, 03:22 PM
Also, there really isn't any reason for the Berserker to go with Str/Con, except that it'll boost his HP and not require him to get Melee Training.

There used to be, and I'm thinking of making it so again. In fact, I'm thinking of tying the Berserker to three builds: Str/Con, Str/Dex or Str/Wis.


That is mostly fluff, and you can usually just pick a different Rage instead.

Not really. Elemental attacks have definite crunch consequences involved with them.

Mando Knight
2011-09-25, 04:38 PM
In fact, I'm thinking of tying the Berserker to three builds: Str/Con, Str/Dex or Str/Wis.
...I'd recommend against it. The Mage has so many different builds because it's an iconically broad class. Berserkers, not so much. The Slayer and the Knight each use one pair of stats for their builds. The Barbarian also covers those stat spreads, but also has access to more diverse options than an Essentials Martial-ish class does.

Also, your Aspects of the Wild are far too skirmish-y for a berserker. Barbarian types are usually more Brute-style (except for the Whirling Barbarian, but they're different), charging in and smashing it up. I'd recommend basing your stances more on the Slayer and Barbarian than the Scout.

Furthermore, while I'll still stress that they should have "only" standard Fighter HP (seriously, you don't know how much HP a Defender gets until you realize that your "slightly injured" level of HP is often near your allies' full HP), Berserkers are known for their fairly insane durability... probably best shown through temp HP, since it's more of ignoring pain and injury rather than actual immunity.

The Troubadour
2011-09-26, 09:25 AM
Hmmm... Lots of good suggestions, Mando Knight. Guess I'll have to bring the class "back to formula". :-) Thanks for the help! :-D