Durkon the faithless?

[Dalek-K]

I'm starting to notice that Thor isn't really a good god to cleric for (many examples throughout the comic). Sure sometimes he comes through in a great way (control weather) but most of the time it seems like him and (and his family/pantheon) doesn't care much for him.

I know they are gods but still to have a believer who spreads your will and word and you basically ignore him or just thrown him random spells. Granted this would be a neat domain power (run out of spells and have your deity send you a random one) but it just isn't very practical.

I would like to see Durkon become a Cleric of an idea and shy away from his god Thor. This would be a huge in terms of character development.

I doubt this would happen but Durkon spent all that time researching a spell and Thor throws him "Mass Debt Gourd" ... I could see this being a huge downer. Maybe even turning closer to Loki's alignment and switching over to a follower of his (thus queuing in Helga ;) ).

Not likely but seeing Durkon go against Thor would be nice, or even becoming an atheist would be awesome.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm starting to notice that Thor isn't really a good god to cleric for (many examples throughout the comic).

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/thor_concept_art_chris_hemsworth_01.jpg

You dare invoke my wrath?

It's a comedy webcomic. That's part of the joke.

[Tetsujin-28]

I think it's very unlikely that Durkon would stop worshiping Thor (Rule of Funny), and even if he did, he would not worship a Chaotic Evil deity like Loki.

[Dr.Epic]

I think it's very unlikely that Durkon would stop worshiping Thor (Rule of Funny), and even if he did, he would not worship a Chaotic Evil deity like Loki.

http://0.tqn.com/d/movies/1/0/L/Q/X/thor-photo-tom-hiddleston3.jpg

What's that supposed to mean?

Also, switching deities this high level would be dumb since you'd pretty much have to start all over class-wise.

[Dalek-K]

Would switching deities really cause you to start back over?

I haven't seen any mechanics on that one... Can anyone show me a link to some info on that? Paladins would loose their abilities till they got an atonement spell. But I'm sure other deities would love to snatch up a high level character (there aren't many in the OoTS universe). Clerics only have to worship a god OR an idea so why couldn't Durkon say "Bye Thor, I now worship the idea of being a dwarf"

Also Durkon could be Chaotic Neutral and still worship Loki.

[raymundo]

Clerics only have to worship a god OR an idea so why couldn't Durkon say "Bye Thor, I now worship the idea of being a dwarf"

Also Durkon could be Chaotic Neutral and still worship Loki.

Really? Because it would suck. This is a P&P based webcomic with RPG background.. your idea, in my humble opinion, is a pile of "gee, I gotta totally be more powerful bla whoncares about story"-stuff. I'd love to be wrong about you.

[Steward]

I'm not sure your idea is plausible. Durkon is extremely conservative and I don't really see why that would abruptly change now, especially since he'll probably blame himself or blame Nale's enervation. (The celestials in the last panel honestly didn't seem to know what a 'mass death ward' would even look like -- which might be a problem with the idea of a cleric trying to design a new divine spell in this universe; your deity might not understand how to make it work!)

[Mr. Snuggles]

Durkon loves Thor (in a strictly heterosexual "buddies" kind of way) and is a devout worshiper. Becoming an atheist would be totally at odds with his character. It would be like Xykon seeing the error of his ways and devoting his existence to healing.

Thor is a god of thunder and immense strength. He loves his worshipers and will try to do whatever they ask, including granting spells while Surtur ravages a defenseless town, and intruding on the territory of the Southern gods. When he appears, it's usually in the context of a joke. You can't take punchlines seriously.

[recluso]

For most part OOTS is a story taking its characters serious.
Unshakable beliefs do exist. Durkons belief can be take serious.

Some parts however are only jokes (often by being a parody on D&D), especially the running jokes. It is best to laugh a moment and then ignore it - Flumphs for instance.

The interactions between Durkon and Thor are mostly rule jokes.
If Durkon weren't leveldrained his Mass Death Ward would have worked.
Once he recovers MDW will work.
Rich choose to explain spellloss due to leveldraining as bad transmission.

SRD Ex-Clerics: A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, (except armor/shield/weapons).
No longer believing is very likely a gross violation of code of conduct.
Having fewer believers weakens a God.

[theNater]

I would like to see Durkon become a Cleric of an idea and shy away from his god Thor. This would be a huge in terms of character development.
Given that sticking with tradition, even when it's incredibly unpleasant or zany, is a major part of Durkon's character it sure would be huge. On the order of Belkar ceasing to be a completely heartless sociopath(or psychopath, or whatever the appropriate term is), in fact. So it would require at least as much build-up, and we haven't seen any yet.

It's not impossible that it could happen eventually, but it seems unlikely.

Also Durkon could be Chaotic Neutral and still worship Loki.
Remember, Durkon is Lawful Good right now. Chaotic Neutral is a heck of long way off.

[ThePhantasm]

I don't want to see Durkon develop that drastically. A little character development is fine but I actually enjoy Durkon being the consistent guy on the team. He is one of my favorite characters.

[Dalek-K]

SRD Ex-Clerics: A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, (except armor/shield/weapons).
No longer believing is very likely a gross violation of code of conduct.
Having fewer believers weakens a God.

Yes but if Durkon started worshiping any other deity (thus following their code of conduct) he can get all his spells and class features back. He has the experience and the level to have them after all.

Heck in D&D terms its like making a 15-17 level character (giving him stats first and the exp) then saying "I want him to be a cleric of X"

You also forgot this part of the EX-Clerics entry "He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)." Which seems to mean to me that hi god just wouldn't give him the spells and class features till he said "sorry" (yes like the BP man from south park XD)

So if he was an EX-Cleric of Thor and went to say.... One of the southern gods and they allowed him to be a cleric I wouldn't see why he would have to start over at level 1.

When a paladin becomes a blackguard he/she gets bonuses for once being a paladin (thus they broke his/her code and when they went to another deity that one allowed the ex-paladin to stay the level they were sort of).

Why wouldn't that be the same way for Clerics (who in most purposes are better paladins than paladins)?

I understand that Thor is for humor. However he is still interacting with Durkon and that he tends to cause more problems. It is like Elan and Roy, Elan is funny but Roy was going to leave him at the bandit camp due to how troublesome he was.

I'm not saying for the rest of the comic, but it would be cool to see Durkon go through a phase of worshiping another god (maybe twin god named death and destruction that he thinks is against trees?).

Also you could be atheist in the D&D world, you just have to believe that the "gods" are actually high level wizards that are mortal and with tons of buffs in another plane and that there is no real afterlife but an illusion etc etc etc.

[The Dark Fiddler]

It's a comedy webcomic. That's part of the joke.

That doesn't make Thor any better of a god.



Also, switching deities this high level would be dumb since you'd pretty much have to start all over class-wise.

Except for the part where that doesn't happen at all, you mean? :smallconfused:

[narwhal97]

Not likely but seeing Durkon go against Thor would be nice, or even becoming an atheist would be awesome.

You are going to get smited... :smallsmile:

I don't think Durkon is thinking much about what his deity is doing wrong, mainly what he's doing right. He's never expressed anger at Thor before this, so I don't think he would suddenly leap over to Loki.

[Dalek-K]

I just used Loki as an example. Any other deity would do...

And Durkon could be bottling up his rage, and as he holds it back more and more then backlash will be bigger and bigger.

About the only thing Thor does right would be bending the rules (control weather) for his own amusement (though Durkon wouldn't know its for his own amusement).

But now that he researched a great spell that will help defeat the number one evil in the world (that he knows of) and his god gives him Mass Depth Gourd .. I could see that being a breaking point.

[Asta Kask]

I don't want to see Durkon develop that drastically. A little character development is fine but I actually enjoy Durkon being the consistent guy on the team. He is one of my favorite characters.

I agree. He and Roy form the iron girder on which the other characters are hung.

[Dalek-K]

He can still be durkon, just tired of having a flaky god.

He is mature enough to not even throw a hissy fit like most people would and just say something like "You know what, I'm done" and then research other faiths (like his new friend's faith? hmmm)

[recluso]

My objections were more based on what I feel as right, than anything else, still i have some defense.


Yes but if Durkon started worshiping any other deity ... he can get all his spells and class features back. [...snip... ] You also forgot this part of the EX-Clerics entry "He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description)."
A little defense around that "forgotten" part...
In short: I skipped it because IMO it does not change the issue.
Atonement states under "Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers": A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid.

I admit - the mentioned rule doesn't explicitly forbid deity change.
Neither does it explicitly offer the option (only to get back to the same God).
The switch Paladin to Black Guard differs: The offer is explicitly given.

I admit my objection to a switch for Durkon caused me to object a bit too much to deity switching in general: completely forbidding any GM to allow it does not improve D&D. However I think the SRD doesn't guarantee it is possible.


I understand that Thor is for humor. However he is still interacting with Durkon and that he tends to cause more problems. It is like Elan and Roy, Elan is funny but Roy was going to leave him at the bandit camp due to how troublesome he was.
Elan is written to be childish/stupid, not much of that is a throwaway joke.
Plenty characters are smarter.
A lot of the spell trouble isn't Thor's fault. It is D&D mechanic sillyness. Another God or cause couldn't have given Mass Death Ward either (due to level draining), acquiring spells would be a hassle too with another God.


I'm not saying for the rest of the comic, but it would be cool to see Durkon go through a phase of worshiping another god (maybe twin god named death and destruction that he thinks is against trees?).
I feel Durkon's tree hate is a bit a weaker part of the comic. For me, for Durkon to switch Gods, he would need to switch from duty-masochism to hedonism simultaneously. That would need a lot of build-up, yet it's possible and possibly an enjoyable read.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also Durkon could be Chaotic Neutral and still worship Loki.So he'd become more like Thor? (Ignoring the 1-step rule, I can't see how Thor is anything but Chaotic.)

[ORione]

So he'd become more like Thor? (Ignoring the 1-step rule, I can't see how Thor is anything but Chaotic.)

Could be that in OotS verse, Thor balances his Chaotic acts with lots of Lawful acts, but we don't see them because they aren't funny. That would put him at NG.

[Dalek-K]

Based on Durkon's alignment the only possibility of Thor's alignment would be NG due to Thor's actions. Though I guess Durkon could be SOOO chaotic that he is pretending to be lawful till the time is right.

I will post more later... bedtime for me.

[Mastikator]

He wouldn't be much of a true believer if a few fizzled spells would turn him away. I mean isn't Thor supposed to be his true calling and all that?

[Querzis]

Could be that in OotS verse, Thor balances his Chaotic acts with lots of Lawful acts, but we don't see them because they aren't funny. That would put him at NG.

...He got drunk and started throwing lightning randomly everywhere. I just do not see how any lawful action could balance that. Hes definitly chaotic, in pretty much all the mythology about him Thor and Loki are the very essence of chaos (if on different ends of the moral spectrum.) Rich probably just got rid of the stupid 1-step rule like he got rid of dozens of stupid rules before in the comic, I dont see why that would surprise you. Mind you, I see perfectly why would a good cleric be unable to server an evil god (and vice-versa) but I really dont get why would Chaos and Order have anything to do with it.

Anyway so yeah, as many people have said before me, most of the reason you said Thor isnt good for Durkon would apply to pretty much every other god and I dont think many other gods would be ok with bending the rules of Control Weather on another gods pantheon territory just to help one follower. Beside, it would just be very out of character for Durkon and we havent seen any buildup toward that yet.

Oh and by the way, yes I would agree that you would lose all your powers and start back to level 1 if you switched deity. As its been explained, they say pretty clearly in the SRD that your god can take away your powers and that all of your powers come from your god. Switching gods isnt discussed anywhere because its just not supposed to happen. And here I'm not saying that its not possible to switch but why would another god give you the same level of power as the old one was giving you, especially when you're actually known to switch between the deities you follow?

[Gettles]

What exactly would be awesome about Durkon being an atheist? He'd come across as crazy going around saying that gods don't exist in a world where there is literal proof that gods not only exist, but have a very real impact on the world at large. He might as we say the world is flat.

The rest of the order would think he lost his mind.

[Querzis]

What exactly would be awesome about Durkon being an atheist? He'd come across as crazy going around saying that gods don't exist in a world where there is literal proof that gods not only exist, but have a very real impact on the world at large. He might as we say the world is flat.

Oh no, the whole point of being an atheist in a world like D&D is that you either: Think no gods deserve worship since your perfectly realize that they actually get stronger the more followers they have or Think that while 'gods' exist, they arent really gods. As in, they can be killed, a mortal can become a god if he got enough followers and there is no proof that they actually created the world, they were probably just born on it like everyone else.

[rewinn]

Gods are not laws of nature to be commanded to sit down, shut up and perform. If you want that sort of power, go be a wizard.

[silvadel]

Durkon is probably higher level now than the current "High Priest of Thor"

[Deliverance]

I'm starting to notice that Thor isn't really a good god to cleric for (many examples throughout the comic). Sure sometimes he comes through in a great way (control weather) but most of the time it seems like him and (and his family/pantheon) doesn't care much for him.

Being a cleric isn't a job - it is a vocation founded on faith and belief, and Durkon's faith is strong. He is a servant of the divine, not its master, and his god moves in mysterious ways.

[Sholos]

I've never understood the idea of a cleric who didn't have a deity. I certainly don't allow clerics without one in my games. Then again, I also actually limit a cleric's spell list based on his deity. I'm a fan of a cleric's faith actually meaning something. As for Durkon, I'd be extremely disappointed if he suddenly abandoned the faith that he's followed his entire life, and certainly wouldn't see it as a positive direction for the character.

[Dr.Epic]

That doesn't make Thor any better of a god.

By comparison it does. You think the other gods will be more competent? It's a comedy. Failure and incompetence is a recurring theme. Not to mention Thor has gone beyond and above for Durkon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)


Except for the part where that doesn't happen at all, you mean? :smallconfused:

Except for the part where it does happen. Quoted from the PHB:


A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god
(generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or
purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and
shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.

I'm no ruleslawyer, but I'm pretty sure switching gods and alignments would count as violating this code of conduct, and he'd lose all his class abilities. You can't just switch deities and expect to have the same class features as if you had worshiped that god from the start.. Classes don't work like that.

[mrmcfatty]

the only thing i have to add is that every time durkon has ever cast a spell it was because of thor. He gets his powers from thor and 99% of the time they work just fine or bend the rules in his favor.

maybe the few times thor has messed up was just a homebrewed way to give a 5% spell failure or something of the sort.

another thing is the gods are people that have ascended to god-hood, so it could be assume that sense they are "human" they can mess up from time to time.

[Gullintanni]

...He got drunk and started throwing lightning randomly everywhere. I just do not see how any lawful action could balance that. Hes definitly chaotic, in pretty much all the mythology about him Thor and Loki are the very essence of chaos (if on different ends of the moral spectrum.)


Okay...I would easily agree with you that Rich would toss the 1-step rule if it was inconvenient for the story, but the Thor of mythology is not, IMO, Chaotic by any measure. He's lightning-tempered and vengeful, but also noble and devoted.

The core of Thor, the deity, is duty. Thor stands vigil by the walls of Asgard and wages tireless war against its Giant assailants. One definition of Lawful suggests that one obeys the laws and order of the land. Another definition of Lawful within the D&D handbook suggests living by a rigid personal code regardless of the laws. In the former sense, Thor is anything but lawful, but in the latter sense, he's almost an ideal candidate. His single purpose is the defense of the Æsir, and to that end he devotes himself entirely.

His vicious temper and general dim-wittedness see him often manipulated and forced into situations where his actions are not necessarily in keeping with either his own code of conduct or within the laws of the land, but Thor himself is utterly predictable when left to his own devices. If not for his temper, and his early kinship with Loki, I'd put him as firmly Lawful. As it is, he's pretty neutral.

EDIT: To the example given, getting drunk does not a chaotic alignment make. Getting drunk certainly causes chaotic behaviour, but addiction notwithstanding, mind altering substances don't change who you are when you're sober.

[ORione]

EDIT: To the example given, getting drunk does not a chaotic alignment make. Getting drunk certainly causes chaotic behaviour, but addiction notwithstanding, mind altering substances don't change who you are when you're sober.

I agree with you there. Durkon loves beer, and he's definitely Lawful.

[dps]

The problem for Durkon is that he's Lawful Good, and Thor appears to be Chaotic Good. I'm not particularly familiar with the Norse pantheon, and even if I were, I'm not sure exactly how it translates to OotS, but it would appear that none of the gods in that pantheon are more Lawful than Thor, so Durkon doesn't really have any options. I suppose he could start worshipping a god in one of the other pantheons, but that wouldn't be character development, it would just be out of character.

[Hamiltonz]

I'm starting to notice that Thor isn't really a good god to cleric for...

I have to disagree. Thor has to have hundreds of thousands of follows if not millions. He gives Durkon way MORE personal attention than most (if not all) of his other followers.


Durkon is probably higher level now than the current "High Priest of Thor"

Which, in my opinion, is why it makes sense that Durkon would receive more attention.

[Mr. Snuggles]

I have to disagree. Thor has to have hundreds of thousands of follows if not millions. He gives Durkon way MORE personal attention than most (if not all) of his other followers.
How do you know that's not happening offscreen? Gods are omnipotent and omniscient, you know. It's not a big deal for an honest-to-God god to keep track of millions of individual lay worshipers, much less have a personal relationship with thousands of clerics who receive their spells directly from their deity, much less be acquainted with a couple dozen highlevel priests, some of whom are engaged on world-saving campaigns.

I look forward to the strip in which (sometime around the year 2015 :smallannoyed:) Durkon finally arrives back home and discovers he's much higher level than the High Priest o'Thor and all the other clerics who hung around the dwarven caves.

[Gullintanni]

The problem for Durkon is that he's Lawful Good, and Thor appears to be Chaotic Good. I'm not particularly familiar with the Norse pantheon, and even if I were, I'm not sure exactly how it translates to OotS, but it would appear that none of the gods in that pantheon are more Lawful than Thor, so Durkon doesn't really have any options. I suppose he could start worshipping a god in one of the other pantheons, but that wouldn't be character development, it would just be out of character.

Richs take on Thor may appear Chaotic Good, but again...that's either a handwave of the 1-step rule, or Thor does his lawful stuff off screen.

My guess would be that Rich doesn't have a specific alignment in mind for Thor. His Thor just happens to do what's comedically appropriate in the moment and the 1-step rule be damned. Cause the narrative is more important than alignment mechanics.

[SoC175]

If Durkon weren't leveldrained his Mass Death Ward would have worked.
Once he recovers MDW will work.Actually it was just supposed to be a joke about researching a brand new spell that the deity himself didn't know about.

The Giant chose MDW because he did not know that it was actually an existing spell in D&D. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11878742&postcount=50)

About the only thing Thor does right would be bending the rules (control weather) for his own amusement (though Durkon wouldn't know its for his own amusement). And of course each and every time Durkon just uses his spells without anything special. Just because the comics used a couple of special occasions for a joke doesn't invalid the 99.9% of times when nothing unusual happens to Durkon's daily spells

How do you know that's not happening offscreen? Gods are omnipotent and omniscient, you know. Not in D&D and neither in OotS

[Tirian]

The thought that Durkon would optimize his build by throwing away his lifelong faith is completely out of character. Perhaps you're thinking of the other spellcaster in the party.

[ORione]

The thought that Durkon would optimize his build by throwing away his lifelong faith is completely out of character. Perhaps you're thinking of the other spellcaster in the party.

Don't be silly, Elan's devotion to Banjo is absolute.

[Dalek-K]

Isn't one of the powers in D&D for the gods to know everything that is happening that is related to them? I could have sworn Corellon or Grumish had something like that... Something long that line, so that if you want to kill a god you have to hide yourself as you plan it (etc etc). of course that information came from a previous DM who might have made that up >.>

When people fall from religion they tend to fall hard and for a reason someone on the outside would say "oh..really?" I've seen many people lose faith over little things and big thing. Usually they gain it back but sometimes they don't.

Here is a Dwarven Man in his hour of need (err round of need) that gets a fizzle (slight pain) and a weird unwanted useless spell. That seems like a slap in the cheek to me. Maybe Durkon will go through a period where he doesn't want to rely on Thor (even though his spells are what makes him top dog) and tries to rely on his own dwarven strength, I'm sure a deity will notice when one of the highest level clerics in the world stops casting spells.

Being a cleric is a job. Maybe he feels devoted to his cause or his people but being a cleric is what he does for a living.

It seems like the angels give Durkon a lot of attention (which there could be millions of) and when they don't know what to do they ask Thor (who either gets interested and bends the rules or goes "meh")

Heck they even have a caller help line (that fails) :smallbiggrin:

Now what would be great is if the Lawyers to get back at Durkon for causing them to have a statue dropped on them (:smallconfused:) explains that Thor is CG and Durkon can't receive spells due to being LG (two steps away). :smallbiggrin:

[SoC175]

Isn't one of the powers in D&D for the gods to know everything that is happening that is related to them? Yes, but only greater deities and only for 16-20 weeks in advance.

However that doesn't give them the omnipresence and unlimited time to deal with everything they sense this way (deities can handle 1-20, depending on power level, tasks simultaneously, thus talking personally to a thousand clerics takes time, even for a greater deity)

[Dalek-K]

Super advance time stop?

[BlackestOfMages]

also, I would like to point out Durkon dosen't know how Thor is acting, as he can't see him/know what he's saying. the only time Durkon knows something went wrong was the answering machine early on in the strip.

and yeah, every time Thor's not been perfectly perfect has been a joke, which - since this is a comedy parody of DnD - is far far greater than silly little rules mechanics etc

also, only one of the members of the OoTS really thinks about their build is V, and maybe elan (though he's not all that good at it)

[SoC175]

Super advance time stop?Since 3e timestop doesn't actually stop time but accelerates the caster that it appears to him that time has stopped while it's flowing normally for everybody else. So even if they actually had such a spell, no cleric would understand what their deity just said speaking insanely fast during the split-second she appeared to him :smallbiggrin:

[BlackestOfMages]

Since 3e timestop doesn't actually stop time but accelerates the caster that it appears to him that time has stopped while it's flowing normally for everybody else. So even if they actually had such a spell, no cleric would understand what their deity just said speaking insanely fast during the split-second she appeared to him :smallbiggrin:

super-advanced time stop that actually stops time temporarily :smalltongue:

[Nevereatcars]

super-advanced time stop that actually stops time temporarily :smalltongue:

Wouldn't that encourage Olber's Paradox?

[Nimrod's Son]

How do you know that's not happening offscreen? Gods are omnipotent and omniscient, you know. It's not a big deal for an honest-to-God god to keep track of millions of individual lay worshipers, much less have a personal relationship with thousands of clerics who receive their spells directly from their deity, much less be acquainted with a couple dozen highlevel priests, some of whom are engaged on world-saving campaigns.
Thor, being omnipotent and omniscient, earlier. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)

[derfenrirwolv]

Thor is definitely chaotic.

Either the pantheon function mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html)
allows lawful good followers to tap into chaotic good gods, or Thor is simply SO chaotic that he doesn't follow the rule about only having followers that are 1 step away from him.

[Tebryn]

http://0.tqn.com/d/movies/1/0/L/Q/X/thor-photo-tom-hiddleston3.jpg

What's that supposed to mean?

Also, switching deities this high level would be dumb since you'd pretty much have to start all over class-wise.

This is patently wrong. You keep your levels, you just need an atonement spell as per the rules.

[Querzis]

This is patently wrong. You keep your levels, you just need an atonement spell as per the rules.

We have discussed this a lot and yes, you lose your damn levels. They make it very obviously clear in the PHD that clerics get ALL their powers from their god and that their god can take it all away whenever they want. Why the hell would your new god give you exactly the same level of power as your old one did, especially when you're known to switch between the gods you follow? Also this is how atonement spell work:

«Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP. »

Note the «cleric of the same deity». If you're really sorry about what you did and wanna go back to your old deity then yes, atonement can allow you to recover all those levels. But you most definitly cannot atone to your new deity for abandonning your old deity, thats not how atonement works and not just because if you switch deity, then you're obviously not sorry about the transgression you did to your old one.

I know that by the rules, Cleric really end up doing the same thing no matter who their god is but really, switching god for a cleric would be exactly the same thing as switching class for anyone else. You got all those powers from your devotion to your god and because you advanced his cause, if you stop devoting your life to that god then yes, you can be sure as hell you lose all your level you gained while serving under him.

[hamishspence]

In Defenders of the Faith, and in Player's Handbook 2, it explains that it is possible for a fallen cleric who switches deities, to regain full clerical abilities, and new domains in place of their old ones.

So- the rules do exist to allow a cleric to switch deities, and not have to start again from scratch.

[rbetieh]

Thor is definitely chaotic.

Either the pantheon function mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html)
allows lawful good followers to tap into chaotic good gods, or Thor is simply SO chaotic that he doesn't follow the rule about only having followers that are 1 step away from him.

If Thor was chaotic, Roy would not have died. Thor would have said "screw you, southern gods, Im helping my cleric durkon with whatever he prays for and you can sit there like a good dog and watch!"

[Querzis]

In Defenders of the Faith, and in Player's Handbook 2, it explains that it is possible for a fallen cleric who switches deities, to regain full clerical abilities, and new domains in place of their old ones.

So- the rules do exist to allow a cleric to switch deities, and not have to start again from scratch.

Still doesnt make any sense as far as I'm concerned and still go against the rules in the frigging PHD but hey, I suppose it doesnt especially matter as its still not something Durkon is gonna do anytime soon.


If Thor was chaotic, Roy would not have died. Thor would have said "screw you, southern gods, Im helping my cleric durkon with whatever he prays for and you can sit there like a good dog and watch!"

Ok so apparently you think chaotic automatically means Chaotic Stupid...nah way, even for a chaotic stupid character this would be too stupid so let me rephrase that: apparently you think chaotic means screw the entire world and everyone in it and screw any consequence my actions might bring (even if, in this case, the consequence involve getting killed by the Snarl if the god start bickering again). Oh and also, Durkon serve Thor, not the other way around. I mean your definition of chaotic is just so weird, its someone whos dutiful and servile enough that he'd accomplish everything Durkon said while at the same time giving the finger to all the others gods and the God-Killing abomination. What?

[hamishspence]

Still doesnt make any sense as far as I'm concerned and still go against the rules in the frigging PHD but hey, I suppose it doesnt especially matter as its still not something Durkon is gonna do anytime soon.

The rules in the PHB don't forbid it- they simply make no provision for it.

The first example of such rules was in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Then Defenders of the Faith got it, then Player's Handbook II did in 3.5.

From the point of view of a player- having to start all over again as a 1st level cleric, at 20th level or so, after a dramatic Fall arc, would be far too restrictive.

From the point of view of the gods- the greatest heroes, when they fall, make for the greatest villains- so they're not going to short them on power.

In Star Wars, Vader doesn't have to start off as a "Sith Trainee" when he falls- he goes straight from Jedi Knight to Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Tebryn]

We have discussed this a lot and yes, you lose your damn levels. They make it very obviously clear in the PHD that clerics get ALL their powers from their god and that their god can take it all away whenever they want. Why the hell would your new god give you exactly the same level of power as your old one did, especially when you're known to switch between the gods you follow? Also this is how atonement spell work:

«Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of his or her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric loses 500 XP for his intercession. If the transgression was unintentional, he does not lose XP. »

Note the «cleric of the same deity». If you're really sorry about what you did and wanna go back to your old deity then yes, atonement can allow you to recover all those levels. But you most definitly cannot atone to your new deity for abandonning your old deity, thats not how atonement works and not just because if you switch deity, then you're obviously not sorry about the transgression you did to your old one.

I know that by the rules, Cleric really end up doing the same thing no matter who their god is but really, switching god for a cleric would be exactly the same thing as switching class for anyone else. You got all those powers from your devotion to your god and because you advanced his cause, if you stop devoting your life to that god then yes, you can be sure as hell you lose all your level you gained while serving under him.

You're wrong.


Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

[hamishspence]

His argument is that this line:


He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

means that atonement will only restore casting, and the ability to gain levels, for the original deity.

If you choose to worship another deity, you must start over as a 1st level cleric of Hextor/20th level Ex-Cleric of Heironeous, for example (cleric of Heironeous falls and starts worshipping Hextor).

PHB2 makes it clear that this is not a requirement- it is possible to go from 20th level cleric of Hieroneous to 20th level Ex-cleric of Heironeous to 20th level cleric of Hextor, as long as you complete a quest on Hextor's behalf.

(Pick whatever deities you like in place of those two).

[rbetieh]

Ok so apparently you think chaotic automatically means Chaotic Stupid...nah way, even for a chaotic stupid character this would be too stupid so let me rephrase that: apparently you think chaotic means screw the entire world and everyone in it and screw any consequence my actions might bring (even if, in this case, the consequence involve getting killed by the Snarl if the god start bickering again). Oh and also, Durkon serve Thor, not the other way around. I mean your definition of chaotic is just so weird, its someone whos dutiful and servile enough that he'd accomplish everything Durkon said while at the same time giving the finger to all the others gods and the God-Killing abomination. What?

No, Thor is not Omniscient. You know now that Xykon would fail, Thor did not know then that Xykon would fail, or he wouldnt have run up to the border with Odin as he did. Durkon is the highest level Cleric on the battlefield, giving him a little extra power would in fact be more effective than giving any other cleric power. Not only that, but the only cleric Thor can affect in this battle is Durkon. If Xykon gets the gate, all of Thors followers are threatened. If he were of chaotic alignment, these facts alone justify acting first and aplogizing later. So yes, he should have said "screw the rules, this IS bigger than you, and I AM acting, regardless of the consequences". The fact that he didnt shows that he respects the rules made with the Gods enough to let the cards fall as they may, even when his own followers are threatened, that is not chaotic. It might be Neutral, but it is not Chaotic.

[veti]

So yes, he should have said "screw the rules, this IS bigger than you, and I AM acting, regardless of the consequences". The fact that he didnt shows that he respects the rules made with the Gods enough to let the cards fall as they may, even when his own followers are threatened, that is not chaotic. It might be Neutral, but it is not Chaotic.

If you're using the word "should" to direct the actions of any strongly chaotic person, let alone a god, you're doing it wrong.

What makes you think he could even have done it? If the Twelve Gods felt strongly enough to actively obstruct him, why would Thor be stronger than all of them working together?

As to the OP: to suggest that Durkon might abandon Thor over a misfired spell is a bit like suggesting that a married couple of 40 years should break up because she left the milk out of the fridge. It's ridiculous.

[derfenrirwolv]

If Thor was chaotic, Roy would not have died. Thor would have said "screw you, southern gods, Im helping my cleric durkon with whatever he prays for and you can sit there like a good dog and watch!"


-Thor did that with Durkon, and the tiger god showed up at the border and started getting growly.

Remember that the world comes apart and everyone dies from deistic discord, so alignment doesn't enter into it, NO ONE wants god on god conflict that will rip the world apart, kill everyone, and set the god killing abomination loose.

[Killer Angel]

He can still be durkon, just tired of having a flaky god.


I don't recall Durkon tired of Thor, neither of his faith.

[SoC175]

The fact that he didnt shows that he respects the rules made with the Gods enough to let the cards fall as they may, even when his own followers are threatened, that is not chaotic. It might be Neutral, but it is not Chaotic.Or it simply shows that he was not willing to get into a divine brawl with the southern pantheon that even if he would actually win would certainly take longer than the battle of Azue City anyway

[Tirian]

I don't recall Durkon tired of Thor, neither of his faith.

At best, he is skeptical of his WWTD bracelet.

[Wardog]

If obeying any rule anywhere, ever, makes you lawful, and getting drunk and/or doing something foolish or badly planned makes you chaotic, then most people - mortals and gods alike - would be changing alignment all the time.

[Sir Conkey]

Oh no, the whole point of being an atheist in a world like D&D is that you either: Think no gods deserve worship since your perfectly realize that they actually get stronger the more followers they have or Think that while 'gods' exist, they arent really gods. As in, they can be killed, a mortal can become a god if he got enough followers and there is no proof that they actually created the world, they were probably just born on it like everyone else.

That's not atheism though... I think I've heard that called nay-theism.
Not saying atheism isn't possible in a D&D world, read The Cleric Quintet if you want a good description of fantasy atheism. Cadderly is a pseudo-atheist for awhile.

[ORione]

If obeying any rule anywhere, ever, makes you lawful, and getting drunk and/or doing something foolish or badly planned makes you chaotic, then most people - mortals and gods alike - would be changing all the time.

Do you mind if I put that in my signature?

[Fishman]

I do not think a moment of undirected frustration under fire counts as "faithlessness", since he does not know WHY it doesn't work, and, indeed, gods are a pretty fickle lot at best and a certain amount of inattention appears to be expected.


You can't just switch deities and expect to have the same class features as if you had worshiped that god from the start.. Classes don't work like that.There is some precedent that implies that clerics can, indeed, convert to a different god, although the cost of doing so is unknown. Evil gods, in particular, would probably pick up their clerics fairly often like this. Otherwise, no one would ever switch sides when it meant the complete loss of everything. If you were a high level cleric, absolutely nothing could persuade you to switch sides and turn to the dark side if it meant that you would lose all of your powers and start over at level 1! Yet, we know it happens, and we know that such defectors remain high-level adversaries for the party.

In any event, atheism is a nonsensical position in a universe where gods are demonstrably real and possess actual powers. Being an atheist in a D&D universe puts you on the mental level of flat-Earthers.

[hamishspence]

"Any sufficiently advanced wizard is indistinguishable from a deity" so to speak. This is one position the Athar (misotheistic group) from Sigil may advance when tasked with why they don't believe the gods are "real gods".

In a world of magic, divine magic may not look all that different from other forms.

[Wardog]

Do you mind if I put that in my signature?

No problem. (Although there should be an "alignment" in there - I've just edited the original).