Spellcaster for the Evil Empire?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, in my current game, a Hobgoblin Evil Empire has taken over the PCs city.

The rank and file of their army is Warblades and Swordsages, with a Crusader/Marshal/Bard captains and such.

But they need casters. I'd like to keep it to the lower tiers, since this isn't a Tippyverse; the magic should fit smoothly into an organized and intelligent army as one component of many, like the Combined Arms policy of the Wehrmacht.

(Note: The Evil Empire doesn't do necromancy.)

Warlock is an obvious choice; it shoots better than an archer, but has minimal out-of-combat utility, which is also a bit of a drawback, since a Warlock is essentially an archer with a couple debuffs.

Beguiler doesn't really make sense for them, since they're not big on propaganda or mind-affecting stuff, and would probably see it as very Chaotic and something to be suppressed.

Dragon Fire Adept means dragons, or interaction with dragons, and I think the Empire is pretty much anti-dragon. If there were any dragons left, that is- Even I'm still not sure if they've faded forever into the mysty fogs of legend (OR MAYBE I AM JUST SAYING THAT TO THROW YOU OFF, PLAYERS)

Truenamer could be interesting, but requires finding and researching homebrew, or fixing it myself.

What else is there?

[flumphy]

Anything wrong with War Mage? Also not the best at out-of-comabt utility, but it seems like something an evil goblin empire would have.

[sreservoir]

Anything wrong with War Mage? Also not the best at out-of-comabt utility, but it seems like something an evil goblin empire would have.

possibly because it's a third-party prestige class.

(you meant the warmage, from miniatures handbook and complete arcane, I think, not the war mage in age of mortals.)

[shadow_archmagi]

possibly because it's a third-party prestige class.

(you meant the warmage, from miniatures handbook and complete arcane, I think, not the war mage in age of mortals.)

Warmage in Carc is okay, but it seems a bit bland. Plus, in a large-scale engagement fought at level 5ish, spells per day would definitely become a limitation; a battle that lasted for hours would leave the warmage with plenty to not do.

I'd definitely say Warlock is a better war-mage than Warmage.

[Runestar]

If you have MM5, the hobgoblin warsoul and warcaster may be precisely what you need. In summary, they are monstrous humanoids with wiz9 and wiz4 spellcasting respectively, and some other abilities like sr.

Duskblades are technically spellcasters, though they lack utility spells.

What's stopping you from simply playing a wizard or sorc, and choosing only thematically suitable spells? A transmuter could focus on buffs (always welcome in an army). So in battle, they would hang back and cast spells like mass enlarge, haste, snake's swiftness and mass bull's str (from a scroll) to augment the fighters.

The higher lv ones could be gishes (either eldritch knights or abjurant champions).

If you want to enforce this ingame, play a focused specialist transmuter and ban necromancy, enchantment and maybe illusion?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warmage with the Fiery Burst reserve feat from CM. Get Versatile Spellcaster at 1st for early access to the next higher level of spells so they can take that at 3rd, and at level 4+ they can spam 3d6 5-ft. AoEs at will as long as they have two 2nd level spell slots available. Reserve feats are supernatural abilities, so their Warmage Edge won't apply to it unless you modify it for them.

You could do exactly that, make some sort of racial substitution for Hobgoblin Warmages that allows any Reserve feats they take that deal damage to count as spell-like abilities so they benefit from the Warmage Edge. They'll provoke an AoO unless used defensively and won't ignore SR any more. That probably wouldn't cost them anything extra since there's already enough of a drawback by making it spell-like instead of supernatural. Its spell level would count as that of the available spell that allows its use, since that's what determines the DC of a reserve feat anyway.

With Versatile Spellcaster a Warmage 6 can use Evard's Black Tentacles, unless you decide that they need something like Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell to get access to the next higher level of spells known, in which case none of the above will work anyway.

[sreservoir]

Warmage in Carc is okay, but it seems a bit bland. Plus, in a large-scale engagement fought at level 5ish, spells per day would definitely become a limitation; a battle that lasted for hours would leave the warmage with plenty to not do.

I'd definitely say Warlock is a better war-mage than Warmage.

properly done, the warmage took versatile spellcaster at 1, one of the damage reserve feats at 3, and is doing 3d6 or 3d4 element at will, and is one die ahead about half the time from then on.

warmage default fluff is also decidedly easier to fit into an army.

[Coidzor]

Beguiler doesn't really make sense for them, since they're not big on propaganda or mind-affecting stuff, and would probably see it as very Chaotic and something to be suppressed.

Well, a bit debatable, since the Red Hand of Doom has them employing Mindbenders.

And when you say they don't do necromancy, do you mean they don't use any spells from the necromancy school or they don't use undead?

[sreservoir]

telepathy should be quite useful on a battlefield, if you can cover enough of it. bard 5/mindbender 1 is seems about right totemist 5 can do it with no permanent investment by binding shedu crown to crown, and incarnate 2 with shape soulmeld (shedu crown) is I think the earliest telepathy available, though the fact that shedu crown is [good] might not work for an Evil Empire.

(I prefer pragmatic evil, and would use the totemists, but.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make them Dragonfire Adepts with Endure Exposure, See the Unseen, Lightning Breath, and Shaped Breath by 5th level. They can wear heavy armor and use tower shields nonproficient with no drawbacks, since they won't be making any attack rolls. Give them Entangling Exhalation and Ability Focus: Breath. That makes a 15-ft. cone or 30-ft. line of fire or electricity at will for 3d6 damage, they can pick squares to be unaffected so they don't hit allies, and they can entangle foes for 1d4 rounds, which deals half damage initially but then adds 1d6 per round of the entangle duration. Entangle is actually a fairly severe debuff to be spamming on every opponent, and their damage can add up quickly. Much better than Warlocks for this type of thing.

[sreservoir]

an army of binders would be interesting.

at level 1 (binder 1): amon gives needless darkvision, but also a useful fire breath and a decent ram attack; aym improves damage output and makes low-level enemies really not want to hit you in melee; leraje makes decent archers; naberius is probably not useful in combat but is decent socially; ronove is somewhat usable.

at level 2 (binder 1): dahlver-nar gets small amounts of natural armor, and shield self; haagenti gives confusion, but unfortunately only as touch; MALPHAS IS AMAZING with both invisibility and sudden strike and a bird for scouting; SAVNOK = FREE ARMOR, makes positioning easier, and DR/piercing.

at level 3 (binder 3): andromalius' hideous laughter and sneak attack are good for combat, see invisibility is situationally useful, and locate item is okay utility; focalor's breath and lightning are great, and the aura is situational; karsus can dispel competently and use wands, though wands are perhaps too expensive; PAIMON gives dance of death and also gives just enough to dexterity and tumble to let you use it without provoking, and you don't even have iteratives yet.

level 4 and higher require at least binder 5, which might be a bit high for an army. at least one binding buer can help with healing, though.

yeah, an army of binder 1 with improved binding would be dangerous. and could do miscellaneous utility on off days.

[Claudius Maximus]

They can wear heavy armor and use tower shields nonproficient with no drawbacks, since they won't be making any attack rolls.

They'll be penalized on initiative too, which I think they'd care about more.

And the OP said the empire was anti-dragon, so I'm not sure if DFA would be kosher.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, a bit debatable, since the Red Hand of Doom has them employing Mindbenders.

And when you say they don't do necromancy, do you mean they don't use any spells from the necromancy school or they don't use undead?

I was referring to this specific evil empire, not hobs as a whole.

Since we've already got a player that's a binder, binder might definitely be interesting. Hmm.

I'd also forgotten the reserve feats; those are also very interesting.

Wizards with thematically appropriate spells *is* always an option, but I feel like that's forcing the omnipeg into the square hole.

@Biff: Like I said, I'm not sure DFAs are flavor-appropriate for these guys.While I could refluff the class, it seems a bit odd to say that these firebreathing guys are not dragons at all, unlike the firebreathing guy in the party who is identical to them in all ways and is definitely part dragon.

[Starbuck_II]

So, in my current game, a Hobgoblin Evil Empire has taken over the PCs city.

The rank and file of their army is Warblades and Swordsages, with a Crusader/Marshal/Bard captains and such.


Healer? They have to heal even evil creatures (or lose their powers) while good.

Is Pathfinder allowed? Summoner is a good Conjurer type.
Bard: they have a little bit of everything.
Shujenga aren't bad.
Suprised there is no Abjurer/Diviation/Transmutation specialist classes ever made in D&D.

[Kol Korran]

Warmage in Carc is okay, but it seems a bit bland. Plus, in a large-scale engagement fought at level 5ish, spells per day would definitely become a limitation; a battle that lasted for hours would leave the warmage with plenty to not do.

I'd definitely say Warlock is a better war-mage than Warmage.

well, it depends. in a large scale engagements, sure, warmage would run out of spells, but melee guys would run out of hit points, and so on.
the idea in most battles in not just to endure (though such battles have their share) but to bring great force at a decisive point, andtake your enemies down FAST, and HARD. true, a warlock can spew 3d6 ranged attacks, but a few archers can do pretty much the same (more arrows), and a reasonably experienced archer (ranger? focused fighter?) with a slightly magical bow can do even better. but a warmage can bring more damage, to more enemies (area effects) in far shorter, which is often crucial in big fights. also, thanks to the orb spells having no SR, it can deal with those few rare (but highly dangerous) enemies that have SR. (while a warlock may be borked.

everyone has their limits, it's part of the fun. besides, a partially charged wand of scorching ray (say... 20-25 charges?) can keep the warmage going on for quite a bit, and outdoing the warlock's damage.

of course, the reverse can be said- a warlock with enough UMD can get wands to replicate warmages spells and so on.

so in my (inexpert opinion) it may come down to the following three questions:
1) how do you fluff the existence of warlocks and warmages in the campaign? arguably the warmage are easier to explain- a martial school of magic. seems fitting for a goblinoid empire. but an interesting twist could be some cult/ order/ priesthood that makes special sacrifices/ deals/ whatever with some power, to grant their troops the fell gifts. that could add to the flavor of the empire, no?

2) since both classes can partially overcome their shortings (area effects for warlock, lasting long for warmage), the question comes to- how much resources does the empire allocate to it's casters? are they generous, or cheap? if cheap, i'd go with the warmage- heavy damage (most of it's spell outpace the warlock) and area spells are very importent for an army. if they want a glorified archer, train archers.

3) the warlock shines mostly in one area however- the invocations. true, they are few, and weak, but they have interesting results. also- different warlocks can have different invocations, where the warmages are not that versatile (despite advanced learning). this may call for the Warlocks to be more "buffers/ utility/ special agents) rather than blasters (again, hire damn archers) but it might signify them more in PC's eyes, making them interesting tactical targets.

you can however, easily "fix" warmages to the same effects. i allowed in my game for warmages to take spells from other school (i think transmutation, abjuration, and maybe something else?) for their advanced learning spells. this give them 1-2 (depending on the level) extra "non damagey" spells that makes them more versatile just a bit, but not overwhelming. i think they'll be in par with invocations, though less uses a day.

so it's your choice. however, i;ll make two suggestions:

why just one type of caster? have both? one can be more "rank and file heavy artillery" (warmages), and the other special agents, and varied magic items utilizers (warlocks). the empire shouldn't be limited to just one type of caster, they are a bloody empire! also, it becomes boring, very fast.

i'd suggest to also include either low level (3-4) favored souls or spirit shamans (depending how you flavor the empire). spiritual influence is important to most troops, and it enables you to add a bit to the mix, giving more options to the army, and also maybe adding some more flavour to the empire. combining the background of warlocks and favored souls can be interesting indeed.

the second suggestion- make the regular casters level 6. this give the warlock a lesser invocation (which are really interesting, and fit well with "special agent" stuff, and the warmage 3rd level spells and another advanced learning. (which are really important for large scale battles). it makes them more versatile, more powerful, and still some sort of threat at higher levels.

Edit: i just read Starbuck II's suggestion of bards and remembered- in Eberron the goblinoid Emprie traditionally uses bards (called Dirge singers") who act in a complex role of lorekeepers, sort war advisors, giving inspiration to the troops and buffing, sort of judges, also special agents due to their many skills, and light healing. (not much focus on that)

i'm not sure, but i think there is a web article about them somewhere on the web, including nice feats, and a few low level items that they use to help armies.

just a though.

those are my thoughts, hope it helps.
kol.