D2 crusader?

[The Underlord]

So how does this work exactly? I know it gets infinte attacks but how?

[shadow_archmagi]

It doesn't get infinite attacks, it gets infinite damage via a combination of a Crusader stance and a (Cleric spell?).

One of them lets you reroll max damage and add the new roll to the total, and the other lets you reroll 1's.

IE:

Roll a 1, reroll
Roll a 2, add 2 damage and reroll

EDIT: The Imbued Healing spell lets you treat 1's as 2's, not reroll.

[sreservoir]

it does not. its attacks do unresolvable damage.

receive imbued healing (complete champion) on luck domain, activate the 6th level devoted spirit stance aura of chaos, hit something with a d2 weapon. 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 2+d2, and you end up with 2+2+2+...+d2 damage.

kind of doesn't work because a) the die isn't showing its maximum, as aura of chaos says, or b) you can't stop rolling.

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, that's about it.

[flabort]

Kind of a simple trick. Kind of disappointing.

Now Add aptitude weapons + lightning maces :smalltongue:
And whatever else was required in that infinite hits/round build. I recall it having to do with a 2-20 threat range, getting extra attacks on crits, and treating 1's as 20s, as well as auto confirming crits.

Combine that with this, and wow. Only thing that can beat you is Pun-Pun. Now THAT's TO. :smalltongue:

I'm joking, of course. Still, that's a cool trick. I can't see any DM allowing any crusader to use a d2 weapon anymore, now, though. That trick or no.

[Qwertystop]

Kind of a simple trick. Kind of disappointing.

Now Add aptitude weapons + lightning maces :smalltongue:
And whatever else was required in that infinite hits/round build. I recall it having to do with a 2-20 threat range, getting extra attacks on crits, and treating 1's as 20s, as well as auto confirming crits.

Combine that with this, and wow. Only thing that can beat you is Pun-Pun. Now THAT's TO. :smalltongue:

I'm joking, of course. Still, that's a cool trick. I can't see any DM allowing any crusader to use a d2 weapon anymore, now, though. That trick or no.

Why would it matter whether you get infinite hits? You already do infinite damage.

[sreservoir]

Why would it matter whether you get infinite hits? You already do infinite damage.

the fact that you won't necessarily hit.

(of course, pun-pun has NI AC and "no, you can't hit me (ex)" so.)

[flabort]

Why would it matter whether you get infinite hits? You already do infinite damage.

Yo, Dawg. :smalltongue:

[Qwertystop]

the fact that you won't necessarily hit.

(of course, pun-pun has NI AC and "no, you can't hit me (ex)" so.)

But doesn't the infinite-hits thing require that you crit (and therefore hit) with one attack to get the bonus one (which then does the same)? If you can't hit, you won't get the extra attack.

[Knaight]

Why would it matter whether you get infinite hits? You already do infinite damage.

To one target. If you can get infinite hits, you can kill everyone in range. And considering how easy it is to make "in range" a rather large number, that vastly increases power.

[Qwertystop]

To one target. If you can get infinite hits, you can kill everyone in range. And considering how easy it is to make "in range" a rather large number, that vastly increases power.

Ah. That makes more sense. So it's not "extra hits" so much as "extra attacks"?

[The Underlord]

A flaw is even if you auto confirm, it doesnt mean you aout hit.

a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit

[Dusk Eclipse]

A flaw is even if you auto confirm, it doesnt mean you aout hit.

IIRC Lighting maces (the cornerstones of this trick) only need a crit, not a confirmation to generate the extra attack.

[flabort]

It's more of, I CAN KILL EVERYONE, EVER, IN A SINGLE ROUND!!!!!1!!1!1!1!1!!!one!!!! WHOOOOOO!!

especially if you find a way to increase your range. Like, shuriken with that ability that lets you hit anything you see.

But yes, more "Extra attacks" than extra hits.

Also, against Pun-Pun, you'll still get your extra attack if you confirm the crit, even if you technically missed. And everything threatens a crit, and crits auto hit. So eventually you'll get a 20 to hit... and deal NI damage, despite his NI AC and NI DR. So really, it's a matter of who can think of a higher number faster. :smalltongue:

edit: Double ninja

[The Underlord]

It wont guarentee the extra attacks will hit though.

[flabort]

But the extra attacks are guaranteed to threaten, eh? So even if their not guaranteed to hit, their guaranteed to generate further attacks. :smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

And with an infinite number of attacks, you generate an infinite number 20's, which auto-hit.

[Yuki Akuma]

And with an infinite number of attacks, you generate an infinite number 20's, which auto-hit.

Only if all of the attacks are independent of one another. Each additional attack in the chain is dependent on the last one scoring a critical hit.

(Oh, and by the way, rolling a 20 is not enough. You still need a critical confirmation to get the extra attack. You need a critical hit, not a critical threat.)

Also, no, crits do not auto-hit. You have to actually hit your target's AC to provoke a critical threat - only a 20 is an auto-hit.

[TroubleBrewing]

Only if all of the attacks are independent of one another. Each additional attack in the chain is dependent on the last one scoring a critical hit.

Well, yeah. But with multiple attacks, the longer the chain gets, the closer the chance of failure gets to 0.



(Oh, and by the way, rolling a 20 is not enough. You still need a critical confirmation to get the extra attack. You need a critical hit, not a critical threat.)

Here you are incorrect. The Lightning Mace style specifies a critical threat.



Also, no, crits do not auto-hit. You have to actually hit your target's AC to provoke a critical threat - only a 20 is an auto-hit.

I am aware. This is why I specified '20' in my comment, not merely a threat scored.

[Greenish]

Here you are incorrect. The Lightning Mace style specifies a critical threat.Yeah, but "Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat."

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, yeah. But with multiple attacks, the longer the chain gets, the closer the chance of failure gets to 0.

Uh....

What? No. That's not how math works at all.

The longer the chain comes, the chances of missing approaches 1.

You seem to be misunderstanding what 'infinite' means. If you have a chain of events, and the success of each step in the chain generates a new event, you can feasibly get an arbitrarily high number of events. But if there is even the tiniest chance of failure, you cannot reach infinity.

The chance of failure might approach 0 (I don't see how you could think it does), but it can't ever reach 0.

In fact, you can't count to infinity anyway, because it's not a number.

[Escheton]

Unfortunately this all just leads to your crusader infinitely delaying when combat starts due to unresolved attackissues and the lvl 1 kobold gibbing him.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If twenty D2 Crusaders managed to attack Pun-Pun, he would be taken down to 0 HP, because infinite-infinite=0, and one of them rolled a 20. Then someone else just has to roll a 20 to bring him down to -10. Of course, Pun-Pun would win initiative, but I don't see any speed boosts on him, so if they had a barbarian dip, the Quick trait, and boots of striding and springing, then they could all chase him down.

[sreservoir]

If twenty D2 Crusaders managed to attack Pun-Pun, he would be taken down to 0 HP, because infinite-infinite=0, and one of them rolled a 20. Then someone else just has to roll a 20 to bring him down to -10. Of course, Pun-Pun would win initiative, but I don't see any speed boosts on him, so if they had a barbarian dip, the Quick trait, and boots of striding and springing, then they could all chase him down.

infinity does not work that way.

anyway, even if the d2 crusader did resolve to infinite damage, that infinite damage is greater than pun-pun's non-infinite hp. but pun-pun would survive that, of course.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Infinity is not a number; you can't just add and subtract it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Infinity is not a number; you can't just add and subtract it.

But it matches itself. If you have infinity, then you take away infinity, what do you have?

[Urpriest]

But it matches itself. If you have infinity, then you take away infinity, what do you have?

Whatever the experimentalists tell you you're supposed to have, in practice.[/renormalization in quantum field theory]

[sreservoir]

But it matches itself. If you have infinity, then you take away infinity, what do you have?

you don't.

[flabort]

Actually, here's the weird thing.
Because Infinity+Infinity=Infinity (Not 2xInfinity), Infinity-Infinity=Infinity, it just has to. It works a bit like 0 that way, in that anything you multiply or divide it by just results in itself, and adding or subtracting it from/to itself results in itself. The difference between 0 and infinity, is that if you add or subtract something else from 0, it changes value. Infinity always remains infinity, no matter what you do to it.
Infinity/Infinity=Infinity. It's just that indivisible. It can't even divide itself.

(By the way, I figured out that since X/Y=Z, and the lower Y was the higher Z gets, and as Y approaches 0, Z approaches infinity, that would make X/0=Infinity. I'm pretty sure. I know it's an unresolvable calculation, that's what a D2 Crusader is, it makes sense, right?)

[ThiefInTheNight]

Infinity is not a number.

The operations of addition, subtraction, etc. etc., are not defined for infinity.

This is because what you have when you say "infinity" is that you're talking about some expression that goes to infinity (is unbounded). This leads to different types of infinity: x and x2 both go to infinity, but x2 goes there much faster.

So in math terms, it would be something like this:

lim(x→∞) x - x2 = -∞ [x goes to infinity slower than x2, so -x2 dominates and forces the function to decrease despite +x.]

While:

lim(x→∞) x2 - x = ∞ [Opposite of the above.]

And the obvious:

lim(x→∞) x2 - x2 = 0 [Now x2 and -x2 increase (decrease) at the same rate, canceling each other out.]

In all cases, the "∞" symbol is not a number, but shorthand for "increasing without bound", while "-∞" is "decreasing without bound". The statement "∞-∞" is mathematically meaningless; we'd need to know something about the particular functions that are going to infinity.

To bring this back to D&D terms, the d2 Crusader's damage goes to infinity relatively slowly. It's safe to assume that Pun-Pun's HP increases faster than that, or more realistically, that he has replaced his HP number with "yes".

[Talya]

But it matches itself. If you have infinity, then you take away infinity, what do you have?

Say you have an infinite number of doohickeys. Now, I come along and take away every third doohickey you have. I've taken away 1/3 of your doohickeys.

∞ * 1/3 = ∞

So, now i've taken ∞ away from your ∞.

You're left with ∞. I also have ∞. Yet you have twice as many doohickeys as I do.

Ah, the paradoxes of infinity used as a number...

[Radar]

Actually, here's the weird thing.
Because Infinity+Infinity=Infinity (Not 2xInfinity), Infinity-Infinity=Infinity, it just has to. (...)
Nope! Infinity-Infinity is an undefined expression. You can rig it, to get any outcome the same way as 0/0. Look at this way: n+Infinity=Infinity, where n is an arbitrary real number. Therefore we can have Infinity-Infinity=n.

The Lightning Maces trick not only achieves Infinite damage - it achieves 2^Aleph_0 damage, which can be important, if you are dealing with someone, who has infinite CON score.


You're left with ∞. I also have ∞. Yet you have twice as many doohickeys as I do.
Nope! You both have the same ammount of doohikeys, since there exists a bijection between the sets.

[Corolinth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form

[tyckspoon]

Uh....

What? No. That's not how math works at all.

The longer the chain comes, the chances of missing approaches 1.


While correct for just Lightning Mace alone (assuming a 2-20 threat range it peters out at some large but distinctly non-infinte value), the infinite-attacks chain that I remember also uses Roundabout Kick, which gives you an additional attack when you successfully crit. So you get normal threat = sustained chain, 1 on the original attack roll = lose an attack, chain gets closer to ending, and crit = gain an additional attack, chain gets closer to exploding to infinite. Been a while since I saw the thread where it got mathed out properly, but I do recall the result was that while an early run of 1s can end it, it otherwise doesn't take too long for the crits to stack up enough buffered extra attacks that the chances of rolling enough consecutive 1s to kill the chain becomes infinitesimal.

[prufock]

If twenty D2 Crusaders managed to attack Pun-Pun, he would be taken down to 0 HP, because infinite-infinite=0, and one of them rolled a 20. Then someone else just has to roll a 20 to bring him down to -10. Of course, Pun-Pun would win initiative, but I don't see any speed boosts on him, so if they had a barbarian dip, the Quick trait, and boots of striding and springing, then they could all chase him down.

Yeah, as others said, infinity minus infinity is undefined. In fact, INF - INF = ANY REAL NUMBER. Wrap your brain around that one.

That isn't to say you can't every use INF with operations, just that some of them don't work.

EDIT for obvious kill-stealers.

[ericgrau]

INF - INF = any number because the two infinites aren't necessarily equal. Most paradoxes stem from this; the undefinedness of the infiniteness (yes I realize neither of those are real words). Thus the difference could be anything at all. Consider for example that INF + INF = INF, or INF + 1 = INF.

Can you use swift actions in the middle of a full attack? Maybe then you could figure out a way to get a swift enlarge person or expansion to increase the die size of your weapon and stop the infinite rolling once you reach the desired amount of damage.

[Urpriest]

Can you use swift actions in the middle of a full attack? Maybe then you could figure out a way to get a swift enlarge person or expansion to increase the die size of your weapon and stop the infinite rolling once you reach the desired amount of damage.

I don't think there's any need for that. Doesn't one of the abilities involved use the word "may" or "can"?

[Yuki Akuma]

While correct for just Lightning Mace alone (assuming a 2-20 threat range it peters out at some large but distinctly non-infinte value), the infinite-attacks chain that I remember also uses Roundabout Kick, which gives you an additional attack when you successfully crit. So you get normal threat = sustained chain, 1 on the original attack roll = lose an attack, chain gets closer to ending, and crit = gain an additional attack, chain gets closer to exploding to infinite. Been a while since I saw the thread where it got mathed out properly, but I do recall the result was that while an early run of 1s can end it, it otherwise doesn't take too long for the crits to stack up enough buffered extra attacks that the chances of rolling enough consecutive 1s to kill the chain becomes infinitesimal.

And so you end up with an arbitrarily high amount of attacks, but not infinite, because eventually there will come a time when you roll hundreds of 1s in a row. The laws of probability makes infinity a physical impossibility to achieve, even if you could count to it (which you can't).

(Also, Pun-Pun's HP is arbitrarily high, not infinite. Just so you know. d2 Crusader can kill him, if he does indeed deal infinite damage.)

[tyckspoon]

And so you end up with an arbitrarily high amount of attacks, but not infinite, because eventually there will come a time when you roll hundreds of 1s in a row. The laws of probability makes infinity a physical impossibility to achieve, even if you could count to it (which you can't).

(Also, Pun-Pun's HP is arbitrarily high, not infinite. Just so you know. d2 Crusader can kill him, if he does indeed deal infinite damage.)

*shrug* You'd have to take that one up with whoever actually did the math. I'm just reporting from memory, which was that the result was "ok, I MatLab'd the function, and up to *this* point there's a small but realistic chance of terminating, while after it the expected number of attacks goes to infinity."

(Doesn't matter, there's at least two or three ways to either be immune to HP damage or to remain functional at -INF HP, and Pun-Pun can trivially have all of them going.)

[The Underlord]

Pun-Puns health is not infintie, is a very large number(his constititionis usuall10,000+) so the d2 crusader would kill him, if Pun-Pun didnt kill him first.

[Escheton]

Doesn't punpun have all racial and class features or something?
So can't he just have the stance that makes him unkillable if he keeps making fortsaves?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Doesn't punpun have all racial and class features or something?
So can't he just have the stance that makes him unkillable if he keeps making fortsaves?

Pun-Pun basically has the (Ex) Ability: I get whatever ability I want, whenever I want, yes even that one, no I don't care it doesn't exists in a printed book.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I thought for this exercise that all 1's counted as 20's for crits as stated in a post on page one. We're using the 2-20 part of the post, so why not the other bit?

[sreservoir]

I don't think there's any need for that. Doesn't one of the abilities involved use the word "may" or "can"?

imbued healing just does it, and aura of chaos is ... strangely worded. it does indeed say "You can continue to reroll," but it also says "When one or more of your damage dice show a maximum possible result, reroll" without giving a choice.

using a swift/free action to change your weapon die seems to work, though, I guess?

[flabort]

Wow, what a heated debate about what defines Infinity. I just define it as "Way past what I care to calculate", and say "Doing math with infinity just results in infinity".

Also, as you get more attacks, yes, your chances of rolling a 1 increase. But when rolling a 1 auto-hits and threatens as if you'd rolled a 20, as I remember the TO build we're discussing doing....
I believe it used something called Blood in the Water to do it. If I'm wrong, it still used that to do something else, I'm fairly sure.

As to your attack never resolving, when you've rolled enough damage to kill whatever it was, even pun-pun, you can just drop your weapon, and quick-draw another, to give you a broader range than "1 or 2", giving you a middle option to break off that first attack, so you can move on to your second attack for the round. :smalltongue:

[ThiefInTheNight]

Wow, what a heated debate about what defines Infinity. I just define it as "Way past what I care to calculate", and say "Doing math with infinity just results in infinity".
Uhh... there was no debate, only corrections. And your second quote is incorrect; there are plenty of cases (including an example in my post) where you can get non-infinite answers while working with infinite things.

A popular (and fun!) example:

sumn=0∞ 1/(2n) = 2

That is, the sum 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ...infinitely repeated = 2.

[sreservoir]

and don't forget, 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... such that x = 1 + 2x evaluates to -1!

yup, you just added an infinite number of positive numbers, and got a finite negative.

infinity is just a mathematical abstraction, and abstractions don't really care much for sanity. you can't just pretend they work like everything else.

[Greenish]

I thought for this exercise that all 1's counted as 20's for crits as stated in a post on page one.Why would 1's count as 20's?

The base of d2 crusader is that 1's on the damage dice (1d2) are counted as 2's.

[TroubleBrewing]

Why would 1's count as 20's?

The base of d2 crusader is that 1's on the damage dice (1d2) are counted as 2's.

Yes, but as a humorous addition to the build, it was suggested that Lightning Mace be used with a D2 crusader. The implication was "infinite attacks, all of which deal infinite damage lol".

[ThiefInTheNight]

and don't forget, 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... such that x = 1 + 2x evaluates to -1!

yup, you just added an infinite number of positive numbers, and got a finite negative.

infinity is just a mathematical abstraction, and abstractions don't really care much for sanity. you can't just pretend they work like everything else.
What?

Uh. No? 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... should continue to increase (in fact, should accelerate) the more numbers you add. If you do it infinite times, the sum does not converge (come to a single finite value, the way the reciprocals would).

sumn=0∞ 2n = ∞

sumn=0∞ 2-n = 2

I'm not even sure where x is coming into play there. If x = 1 + 2x, then yes, -1 is the value of x, but that statement has nothing to do with the infinite sum you posted before it, so far as I can tell. Am I missing something here?

[Greenish]

Yes, but as a humorous addition to the build, it was suggested that Lightning Mace be used with a D2 crusader. The implication was "infinite attacks, all of which deal infinite damage lol".And how does Lightning Mace allow treating 1's on attack rolls as 20's? :smallamused:

[Kamai]

As to your attack never resolving, when you've rolled enough damage to kill whatever it was, even pun-pun, you can just drop your weapon, and quick-draw another, to give you a broader range than "1 or 2", giving you a middle option to break off that first attack, so you can move on to your second attack for the round. :smalltongue:

Is this something you can actually do? I thought all of the 1d2 rolls were a single attack with this monstrosity.

[flabort]

And how does Lightning Mace allow treating 1's on attack rolls as 20's? :smallamused:

It's not lightning maces, it's another part of the "Famous" build where lightning maces with aptitude rapiers is the key component. I believe the part which allows it is called Blood on the Water, but I may be wrong.
Anyways, it's a feat that lets you treat 1's on attack rolls as 20s. I'm not sure what you sacrifice for it, possibly just requires a few throw-away feats.

And yes, the implication was "infinite attacks at infinite damage, lol".

Edit: (About swapping weapons mid attack) I'm not sure. That's what I'm assuming, that's what I'd interpret. RAW probably says no, and I'm sure RAI has no place in this thread :smalltongue: Actually, swapping weapons would be used for different attacks. So maybe definitely no.

[Radar]

And so you end up with an arbitrarily high amount of attacks, but not infinite, because eventually there will come a time when you roll hundreds of 1s in a row. The laws of probability makes infinity a physical impossibility to achieve, even if you could count to it (which you can't).
It would be true, if we'd be talking about a single chain of attacks. The thing is, number of such chains increases exponentially with each iteration thanks to Roundabout Kick. In such a case there is a non-zero probability for infinite attacks.

[Yuki Akuma]

Blood in the Water is a martial stance. All it does is give you a bonus to damage when you score critical hits.

And no, you can't swap weapons while resolving damage. Jesus.

[Orran]

I beleive the natural 1 to natural 20 feat is called Better Lucky than Good, from complete scoundrel(?) which 1/day allows you to treat a natural 1 as a natural 20. It has some harsh prereqs as well, 3 other luck feats I think. All from memory, but should be enough for the discussion.

[flabort]

Blood in the Water is a martial stance. All it does is give you a bonus to damage when you score critical hits.

And no, you can't swap weapons while resolving damage. Jesus.

Alright. It occurred to me after I'd posted that you couldn't swap weapons at that time. it cued a very rapid face-palm/head-desk montage. As you can imagine, my hand did get between my head and desk.

OK, so the thing that let you treat 1s as 20s.... It may have been a feat in complete scoundrel, or something... Better Lucky than Good. That's one example of such a feat. So that feat is once per day... :smallfrown: But I'm sure there are others that do the same.

Edit: ninja. It's only two luck feats, but still.

[Greenish]

Blood in the Water is a martial stance. All it does is give you a bonus to damage when you score critical hits.Bonus to attack and damage. Won't help with nat 1's, though.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think the original point got lost somewhere along the way. The whole "infinite attacks that deal infinite damage lol" thing was just sort of humorous suggestion of rediculosity, not a real idea.

Although, now that I think about it... Anybody got a build in mind?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Pun-Puns health is not infintie, is a very large number(his constititionis usuall10,000+) so the d2 crusader would kill him, if Pun-Pun didnt kill him first.
And he can't make his con score infinite. Especially not when the D2 Crusader is dealing all that damage as soon as he touches him with a weapon.

Doesn't punpun have all racial and class features or something?
So can't he just have the stance that makes him unkillable if he keeps making fortsaves?

It doesn't work that way. You can only avoid being reduced to 0 three times before getting kicked out of the stance.

[Urpriest]

What?

Uh. No? 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... should continue to increase (in fact, should accelerate) the more numbers you add. If you do it infinite times, the sum does not converge (come to a single finite value, the way the reciprocals would).

sumn=0∞ 2n = ∞

sumn=0∞ 2-n = 2

I'm not even sure where x is coming into play there. If x = 1 + 2x, then yes, -1 is the value of x, but that statement has nothing to do with the infinite sum you posted before it, so far as I can tell. Am I missing something here?

Well the poster you're quoting may be thinking of the fact that 1+2+3+4+5+...=-1/12 when properly regularized, which is part of the proof that bosonic string theories can only exist in 26 dimensions.

[tyckspoon]

And he can't make his con score infinite. Especially not when the D2 Crusader is dealing all that damage as soon as he touches him with a weapon.


It doesn't work that way. You can only avoid being reduced to 0 three times before getting kicked out of the stance.

Not that it matters, because practically speaking Pun-Pun will have both the Regeneration+Immune to Non-lethal (yoink the Tarrasque's regen or a similar 'no, nothing actually beats this' one) and Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity tricks running; he's immune to HP damage and if you can find a way to inflict HP damage through that anyway he can function normally at any arbitrary HP value, positive or negative. And that's just readily available pre-existing abilities; if you grant the ability to just make stuff up, you're looking at "Pun-Pun Cares Not For Your Puny Attacks: Pun-Pun's HP value cannot be changed except by Pun-Pun's will" or similar.

[sreservoir]

just have "Delay Death (Ex): Pun-pun is continuously under the effects of a delay death spell. As an extraordinary ability, this effect cannot be dispelled or negated by an anti-magic field."

or really, just immunity to daze (ex), greater celerity (ex) at will, delay death (ex) at will. or something like that.

[gooddragon1]

Timeless Body
Psychoportation
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
Power Points: 17

Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects, beginning when you finish manifesting this power and ending at the end of your next turn. While timeless body is in effect, you are invulnerable to all attacks and powers.

This power cannot be quickened.

Pun-pun has this except all the time, can't be dispelled, and doesn't ignore helpful.

[sreservoir]

Pun-pun has this except all the time, can't be dispelled, and doesn't ignore helpful.

wouldn't it be easier to just have it toggled by a free action which can be performed even during another's turn?

[gooddragon1]

wouldn't it be easier to just have it toggled by a free action which can be performed even during another's turn?

Nah, having a non-impeding version of it up all the time cannot have downsides.

[flabort]

Not to mention Pun-Pun has an ability that lets him use 27 different martial stances at once, has an ability granting him 3 full-round actions (or two moves and a standard for every full round he gives up) each round, he's constantly under the same effects that our theoretical D2 Roundhouse Lightning Maces Crusader uses, and should you actually kill him by getting past his (almost) infinite number of defenses, every grain of dirt, sand, or ice in the world, ever, functions as a phylactery for him, except he's not undead, and they didn't cost anything to make.
Did anyone mention he can craft any magic item ever for free? He has Negate Crafting Costs (Ex), so he doesn't need to pay gold, or XP. And Negate Prerequisites (Ex). And so he's got a +3241 longsword, with enough enchantments that it would normally cost as much as a +9423 longsword. And he's got thousands of shuriken and other throwing weapons enchanted just as high.

[Chess435]

Well the poster you're quoting may be thinking of the fact that 1+2+3+4+5+...=-1/12 when properly regularized, which is part of the proof that bosonic string theories can only exist in 26 dimensions.

Could you please link this? I'm a physics major and it sounds really interesting....

[Urpriest]

Could you please link this? I'm a physics major and it sounds really interesting....

This page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_function_regularization) explains how it works. This (http://www.physics.thetangentbundle.net/wiki/String_theory/bosonic_string/lightcone_quantization) shows the light-cone quantization of string theory where it shows up. You end up needing A in that last link to be -1 in order to get massless photons for N=0.

[Chess435]

This page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta_function_regularization) explains how it works. This (http://www.physics.thetangentbundle.net/wiki/String_theory/bosonic_string/lightcone_quantization) shows the light-cone quantization of string theory where it shows up. You end up needing A in that last link to be -1 in order to get massless photons for N=0.

Thanks a lot! It looks like it'll take me a while to work it all out, as I'm only up to basic calculus so far. :smalltongue:

[chaos_redefined]

Well the poster you're quoting may be thinking of the fact that 1+2+3+4+5+...=-1/12 when properly regularized, which is part of the proof that bosonic string theories can only exist in 26 dimensions.

More likely...

1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = x
Multiply each side by 2 to get:
2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + ... = 2x
Add 1 to both sides:
1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = 2x + 1
Note that the left hand expression of the first and third equations are the same thing, and therefore:
x = 2x + 1
Basic arithmetic:
x = -1.

Therefore, 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1.

[tyckspoon]

More likely...

1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = x
Multiply each side by 2 to get:
2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + ... = 2x
Add 1 to both sides:
1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = 2x + 1
Note that the left hand expression of the first and third equations are the same thing, and therefore:
x = 2x + 1
Basic arithmetic:
x = -1.

Therefore, 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1.

This is of course the same kind of 'math' that lets you determine that 1=-1. :smalltongue: Substitution in the third step is faulty; 1 + 2(doubling string) is not the same value as the original doubling string, and so cannot be replaced with that original x.

[sreservoir]

This is of course the same kind of 'math' that lets you determine that 1=-1. :smalltongue: Substitution in the third step is faulty; 1 + 2(doubling string) is not the same value as the original doubling string, and so cannot be replaced with that original x.

that's not the faulty step. the faulty step is a) treating it as a convergent series when it's divergent, b) expecting sanity from infinite series. if you couldn't do that substitution, 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + ... wouldn't converge to 2, either, which it clearly does. things that aren't actually numbers shouldn't be treated like ordinary numbers.

on a related note, the d2 crusader does -1/6 damage on each hit. obviously.

[flabort]

on a related note, the d2 crusader does -1/6 damage on each hit. obviously.

BUH?! :smalleek:
I'd like to see the logic defending THAT claim.

[Wings of Peace]

Since I don't recall seeing this mentioned, Lightning Maces alone isn't what makes the infinite attack combo. It's combining Lightning Maces with a high crit range Aptitude weapon and then stacking crit range extenders like Disciple of Dispater. Granted I don't think I've ever seen a build that goes all the way down to threat range 1, but if you dual wield some manner of metal hand crossbows with Splitting (in addition to Aptitude) and take the feat Handcrossbow Focus you can get enough attacks that the fact it isn't infinite stops mattering.

[sreservoir]

BUH?! :smalleek:
I'd like to see the logic defending THAT claim.

sorry, confusing my math.

[NoldorForce]

While correct for just Lightning Mace alone (assuming a 2-20 threat range it peters out at some large but distinctly non-infinte value), the infinite-attacks chain that I remember also uses Roundabout Kick, which gives you an additional attack when you successfully crit. So you get normal threat = sustained chain, 1 on the original attack roll = lose an attack, chain gets closer to ending, and crit = gain an additional attack, chain gets closer to exploding to infinite. Been a while since I saw the thread where it got mathed out properly, but I do recall the result was that while an early run of 1s can end it, it otherwise doesn't take too long for the crits to stack up enough buffered extra attacks that the chances of rolling enough consecutive 1s to kill the chain becomes infinitesimal.With a large enough crit range (9-20), two different abilities that granted extra attacks (one on threat, one on crit), and Choose Destiny (roll d20 twice and choose your roll), things were such that there was a significant (over 50%) chance of gaining an unbounded number of extra attacks. I don't recall the precise probabilities (though I could work them out with some work), but this was just an extension of the gambler's ruin problem; you would just take the limit of one side going to infinity.

Edit: Ah, found my post (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861974/Potencially_Endless_Attacks_in_a_Single_Full_Attac k_Action&post_num=126#348759957) where I showed the math before.

As per this initial post (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861974/Potencially_Endless_Attacks_in_a_Single_Full_Attac k_Action?pg=1), we would start with eight attacks on a full attack. Each critical threat (which requires a 9 or above) grants an extra attack, and each confirmed critical hit (which requires an extra 2 or above) also grants an extra attack. We may assume that we only miss on a 1, via numerous attack-boosting effects. For each attack, we may either (as a net effect after expending said attack) lose an attack (no threat, no crit), break even (threat but no crit), or gain an attack (crit). As the probabilities of each result are invariant, we can ignore breaking even and compare the losing/gaining situation to gambler's ruin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_ruin).

As "Player 1" in the situation (arbitrarily), our chances of winning and losing the "flip" are 57/97 (p) and 40/97 (q), respectively. Our "bankroll" (n1) starts at eight, while that of "Player 2" is...well, let's just leave it indeterminate at n2=? for now. So what is the probability of us "winning", i.e. having 8+n2 additional attacks to be made at some point in the sequence? If n2=5, about .9507 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281-%2840%2F57%29^8%29%2F%281-%2840%2F57%29^13%29). If n2=500, our chances of "winning" are still about .9412 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281-%2840%2F57%29^8%29%2F%281-%2840%2F57%29^508%29). (Both values are instances of P2, the probability that Player 2 runs out before Player 1 can.) Let's take the limit of this, then, as n2 approaches infinity; our chances then of "winning" (having unbounded money/additional attacks) are... (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=limit+as+x+goes+to+infinity+of+%281-%2840%2F57%29^8%29%2F%281-%2840%2F57%29^%288%2Bx%29%29) about .9412 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=104875557112001%2F111429157112001&lk=1).

As noted in the other thread, that's a staggering combo to pull off. Not only do we have a nonzero probability to get infinite attacks, but the median situation is to have infinite attacks. You might as well roll the d20 and declare infinite attacks so long as it doesn't come up with a 1.

Oh, and if we assumed Choose Destiny were available (possible with various shenanigans), things would get more wild. Well, wild in the sense that your chances of being killed by lightning in a year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike#Epidemiology) are about double that of NOT going infinite on the attack sequence (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281-%281600%2F8379%29^8%29%2F%281-%281600%2F8379%29^inf%29).