View Full Version : Psionics and Incarnum only.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-24, 11:02 PM
Has anyone run a campaign that only allows psionics and incarnum? How well did it work?
If only classes of tier 3 and lower are allowed how effective/balanced would this system be? Is there a proper exchange rate between essentia and power points that could be implemented?
kestrel404
2011-09-24, 11:12 PM
Has anyone run a campaign that only allows psionics and incarnum? How well did it work?
If only classes of tier 3 and lower are allowed how effective/balanced would this system be? Is there a proper exchange rate between essentia and power points that could be implemented?
I have not, but I am familiar with both systems.
The issue with an all t3 group for this setup is that there is only one psionic tier 3 class - the psychic warrior. The wilder, psion, and ardent are all t2, with the erudite and psi-artificer at tier 1, with all the other psionic classes coming in at tier 4 due to sucky power selections (if I am remembering correctly).
And the issue with converting essentia to power points is that pp are meant to be expendable, per-day resources, while ess are continuous use resources (like at-will powers) making it a huge deal to give up essential for pp.
When you say psionics and incarnum only, do you mean ONLY only, or with those two as the only sources of magic? Because I've run pretty close to the latter (I also allowed Tome of Magic, and if you count the supernatural parts of Tome of Battle as magical as well, ToB was on the table too), and it worked reasonably well. (It was part of an effort to get my group to branch out and accept other books/classes. It worked.) Figuring out what items would and wouldn't exist in a world in which (in my case) arcane and divine casting was dangerous and highly forbidden was a bit of a challenge (I eventually said that the Healer wasn't divine, but was instead just manipulation of pure positive energy, just so that the players could buy Healing Belts), but other than that, it was pretty fun. The party was relatively balanced, though of course player skill always leads to variance (like the PsyWar who always forgot his nice swift action buffs and usually spent at least two rounds casting standard action powers on himself before actually doing anything useful). It was a fun game overall. It got really weird at the end, but I'd consider doing it again.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 12:34 AM
Well I was hoping to run a scifi one where the players live in two dimensions; a magic world when they sleep that is low tech and filled with monsters, and a technology world when they are awake that is a post-robot/zombie apocalypse. Every hour spent asleep on the tech world is 3 hours awake on the magic world, and every 24 hours spent awake on the tech world is 8 hours asleep on the magic world.
Each time the party sleeps in one world they live in the other, and they take the opposing energy from one world to the other. So spending 8 hours asleep in the tech world grants them enough magical energy that when they wake up they have replenished their powers, and vice versa.
Incarnum and Psionics are the two different ways you can learn to spend the opposing forces. I picked them because they are similar to scifi psionics and because they each have a pool of energy to draw from.
ThiefInTheNight
2011-09-25, 12:53 AM
Like most attempts to excise (Divine) spellcasting, healing, especially non-HP healing, will be hard to come by.
Otherwise, looks good to me.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 02:23 AM
Like most attempts to excise (Divine) spellcasting, healing, especially non-HP healing, will be hard to come by.
Otherwise, looks good to me.
Do you think I could make all of the none HP damage temporary, and just let them heal it off by resting? Like one stat recovered a day, and any sickness effects lasting only a week?
I have not, but I am familiar with both systems.
The issue with an all t3 group for this setup is that there is only one psionic tier 3 class - the psychic warrior. The wilder, psion, and ardent are all t2, with the erudite and psi-artificer at tier 1, with all the other psionic classes coming in at tier 4 due to sucky power selections (if I am remembering correctly).
Isn't the Wilder a really low 2 though? I thought it was a hovering class, which would make it okay to grab. Also there is psychic Rogue which is tier 3.
Isn't the Wilder a really low 2 though? I thought it was a hovering class, which would make it okay to grab. Also there is psychic Rogue which is tier 3.
Wilders are basically the rock bottom of T2, but bottom T2 is still T2. They get 95% of the game-breaking powers that Psions do (and nobody disputes that Psions are solid T2), and in many cases, they're able to cast them better . . . they're just very, very limited. Still T2.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 02:37 AM
Wilders are basically the rock bottom of T2, but bottom T2 is still T2. They get 95% of the game-breaking powers that Psions do (and nobody disputes that Psions are solid T2), and in many cases, they're able to cast them better . . . they're just very, very limited. Still T2.
Fair enough... Maybe I will brew a psionic bard up. Keep the singing and melee, switch its casting for a slower wilder casting. Or something.
Fair enough... Maybe I will brew a psionic bard up. Keep the singing and melee, switch its casting for a slower wilder casting. Or something.
The Psywar progression would be basically perfect. You just have to come up with a good power list for them. As written, psionics aren't very good at party buffing. Self-buffing, sure, but not so much at directly boosting their teammates. I've been told that there's some good third party stuff out there that fills this niche, but you'll have to do some digging and cherry-picking to get it from WotC.
Also, I personally heavily associate Bards with illusions, which psionics just flat out doesn't do. I don't recommend just tacking illusions onto psionics (since we want them to still be different, after all), but that's a consideration.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 02:49 AM
Hmmm, but they do have debuffing powers. I suppose I could make a debuffing focused one that buffs with class abilities and debuffs with powers. Maybe make a system where they can only buff one person a round, and the buff only lasts a round, but its a swift action to do it and the buffs get better over time.
ThiefInTheNight
2011-09-25, 08:35 AM
Do you think I could make all of the none HP damage temporary, and just let them heal it off by resting? Like one stat recovered a day, and any sickness effects lasting only a week?
If your game can handle long downtimes like that fairly often, sure. Most plotlines would be seriously messed up if the heroes were forced to spend a week off at a time that frequently (since those sorts of things become fairly common as you get higher in level).
Of course, as DM, you can also control the other side of the equation by not using those things as often, but that will require some care on your part.
Fair enough... Maybe I will brew a psionic bard up. Keep the singing and melee, switch its casting for a slower wilder casting. Or something.
Actually, now that you mentioned it, Dreamscarred Press has a lot of OGL material that may help you (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/home). Including both a Psionic bard (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/thoughtsinger) and a Psionic healer (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic).
Essence_of_War
2011-09-25, 08:46 AM
You could do a sort of modified VP/WP system to make the healing not miss divine magic, maybe?
I never liked how critical hits are supposed to go straight to wounds though. Maybe a further modification that everything goes to VP, crits are multiplied as normal and go to VP, and WP are only touched when your VP are totally expended?
Combine with Armor as DR variants to taste?
Devmaar
2011-09-25, 09:02 AM
A Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) is a psionic healer, if you can wait 'til mid levels.
Before then a Life mantle Ardent is at least partway competent
kestrel404
2011-09-25, 10:12 AM
If you want to make a few more Tier 3 psionics classes, it's not actually all that hard.
Wilder, as stated, is rock-bottom T2. You can easily pull that back down into T3 by banning a handful of the powers (I don't have a full list, but a good starting point would be broken powers from spellcasters with the equivalent powers in psionics, such as polymorph and summon monster).
Alternately, you could give the Wilder the ability to choose mantles like an Ardent (they get the mantle powers, but are limited in their selection). If you ban the astral construct-based mantle and the Time mantle, they should end up as a strong T3 class
Also, the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is a very strong T4 class. If you gave them 1 power off the Psy-war list at ever odd level and a handful of PP (say, 1/2 the psy-war, bonus PP for having a high charisma) then they'd be a T3 class as well.
Hope that helps.
DeAnno
2011-09-25, 11:15 AM
Every hour spent asleep on the tech world is 3 hours awake on the magic world, and every 24 hours spent awake on the tech world is 8 hours asleep on the magic world.
So, this can cause a paradox. Assume on the tech world everyone goes to sleep, and one person stays up all night to keep watch. The person staying up stays up for 6 hours and then goes to bed, which should count for 2 extra hours of magic-world sleep as per the second rule. On magic world however, after 2 hours have gone by and the guard wakes up, by their reckoning only 2/3 of an hour have gone by on tech world, not 6! The watchman can tell them to go to bed, and to contact him in his own past when they wake up 40 minutes into his watch.
When you have two elements in direct contact and able to share information freely, you can't give their timelines non-compatible exchange rates.
Qwertystop
2011-09-25, 11:29 AM
The Psywar progression would be basically perfect. You just have to come up with a good power list for them. As written, psionics aren't very good at party buffing. Self-buffing, sure, but not so much at directly boosting their teammates. I've been told that there's some good third party stuff out there that fills this niche, but you'll have to do some digging and cherry-picking to get it from WotC.
Also, I personally heavily associate Bards with illusions, which psionics just flat out doesn't do. I don't recommend just tacking illusions onto psionics (since we want them to still be different, after all), but that's a consideration.
Maybe do a kind of illusion based on Phantasms (so they can be seen by the target, not anyone who happens to be around). That would fit nicely into Telepathy, keep some of the illusion-y-ness, and keep it different from magical illusions (since there are very few illusions that are Phantasms in normal magic, and they're usually combat-based).
Psyren
2011-09-25, 02:12 PM
Well I was hoping to run a scifi one where the players live in two dimensions; a magic world when they sleep that is low tech and filled with monsters, and a technology world when they are awake that is a post-robot/zombie apocalypse. Every hour spent asleep on the tech world is 3 hours awake on the magic world, and every 24 hours spent awake on the tech world is 8 hours asleep on the magic world.
Each time the party sleeps in one world they live in the other, and they take the opposing energy from one world to the other. So spending 8 hours asleep in the tech world grants them enough magical energy that when they wake up they have replenished their powers, and vice versa.
Incarnum and Psionics are the two different ways you can learn to spend the opposing forces. I picked them because they are similar to scifi psionics and because they each have a pool of energy to draw from.
This.... is really cool :smallsmile:
You could probably squeeze Binder into this concept if you really want another T3, especially since they can get pretty psionic themselves. (Three psionic vestiges and a psionic PrC.)
The issue with an all t3 group for this setup is that there is only one psionic tier 3 class - the psychic warrior.
Psychic Rogue is also T3
Without Mind's Eye stuff (custom mantles and Dominant Ideal), is the Ardent T2 or T3? I know that with all their options open, they're solid T2, but if you actually have to use the mantle system instead of just getting whatever powers you damn well please, are they limited enough to bring them down to (strong) T3 (on par with, say, the Beguiler), or are they still sitting with the Psion?
BlueInc
2011-09-25, 02:37 PM
Well I was hoping to run a scifi one where the players live in two dimensions; a magic world when they sleep that is low tech and filled with monsters, and a technology world when they are awake that is a post-robot/zombie apocalypse. Every hour spent asleep on the tech world is 3 hours awake on the magic world, and every 24 hours spent awake on the tech world is 8 hours asleep on the magic world.
Each time the party sleeps in one world they live in the other, and they take the opposing energy from one world to the other. So spending 8 hours asleep in the tech world grants them enough magical energy that when they wake up they have replenished their powers, and vice versa.
Incarnum and Psionics are the two different ways you can learn to spend the opposing forces. I picked them because they are similar to scifi psionics and because they each have a pool of energy to draw from.
That is SO. FREAKING. AWESOME.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 02:46 PM
This.... is really cool :smallsmile:
You could probably squeeze Binder into this concept if you really want another T3, especially since they can get pretty psionic themselves. (Three psionic vestiges and a psionic PrC.)
Psychic Rogue is also T3
Thank you! :smallbiggrin:
Hmm, Binder would be tricky to refluff, since they don't really need to switch from world to world to make pacts with things. Unless they need time for their bodies to purify the taint of contact each day, but their souls are immune so they can bind different ones in each world.
That is SO. FREAKING. AWESOME.
:smallbiggrin: I am surprised that this idea has garnished interest.
ThiefInTheNight
2011-09-25, 03:07 PM
Binder [...] psionic PrC.
There is? Not in Tome of Magic, so I assume it was a Mind's Eye thing? Link, please! I love Binders.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 03:09 PM
There is? Not in Tome of Magic, so I assume it was a Mind's Eye thing? Link, please! I love Binders.
Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a)you go.
ThiefInTheNight
2011-09-25, 03:10 PM
I knew about the Vestiges, but Psyren mentioned a PrC?
sreservoir
2011-09-25, 03:41 PM
I knew about the Vestiges, but Psyren mentioned a PrC?
anima mage. it has an adaptation.
ThiefInTheNight
2011-09-25, 03:41 PM
Ahhh, ok. I thought there was a separate one. That works just as well, though, seeing as Anima Mage is a good class.
Psyren
2011-09-25, 03:50 PM
I knew about the Vestiges, but Psyren mentioned a PrC?
Anima Mage has a psionic adaptation (ToM pg. 53). You have to convert the class features yourself, but even if you don't it's still 10/10 manifesting and 10/10 soul binding, which is good enough on its own.
Without Mind's Eye stuff (custom mantles and Dominant Ideal), is the Ardent T2 or T3? I know that with all their options open, they're solid T2, but if you actually have to use the mantle system instead of just getting whatever powers you damn well please, are they limited enough to bring them down to (strong) T3 (on par with, say, the Beguiler), or are they still sitting with the Psion?
Honestly I'd say they're still T2. You can still access the broken stuff without mantle substitution (Polymorph, Time Stop, Feat Leech), you can still end the campaign by autosolving mysteries (Metafaculty, Hypercognition, Psychometry), you can still get the party past numerous obstacles (teleporting, plane shifting, time hopping barriers away etc.) Going through the psionic tricks handbook, there are very few that Ardents can't do (off the top of my head, the ones that require Affinity Field.)
Then you have the Magic Mantle, which is just poorly defined and can nearly turn you into a psionic artificer by itself. In fact, with the Magic Mantle they can actually perform some tricks more easily than a Psion can, e.g. the Save Game trick.
Godskook
2011-09-25, 05:35 PM
Isn't the Wilder a really low 2 though? I thought it was a hovering class, which would make it okay to grab. Also there is psychic Rogue which is tier 3.
The wilder has all the manifesting 'power' of a tier 1, while being incredibly limited in a small number of powers. That's definitive tier 2.
Its actually kinda hard to stradle the tier 2/3 boundary, especially if you're getting 9ths.
Without Mind's Eye stuff (custom mantles and Dominant Ideal), is the Ardent T2 or T3? I know that with all their options open, they're solid T2, but if you actually have to use the mantle system instead of just getting whatever powers you damn well please, are they limited enough to bring them down to (strong) T3 (on par with, say, the Beguiler), or are they still sitting with the Psion?
1.Psion is actually on the fence into tier 1 territory with his massive powers known. Frankly, I think he's only shunted to tier 2 by default of terminology, rather than actual threat level.
2.Tier 1 and 2 have the same max power potential(with tier difference being one of versatility), and nobody of a lower tier really matches them ever.
3.Ardents have the same max power potential as Psions, so decidedly tier 2.
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 07:24 PM
So it sounds like I am going to need some homebrews to do this. Anyone know of any really good ones? I like the psionic bard and healer, but I need moar!
candycorn
2011-09-25, 07:52 PM
:smallbiggrin: I am surprised that this idea has garnished interest.
I'm not. Read Piers Anthony, the Apprentice Adept series.
tyckspoon
2011-09-25, 08:15 PM
A Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) is a psionic healer, if you can wait 'til mid levels.
Before then a Life mantle Ardent is at least partway competent
Sangehirn doesn't really solve the issue. Getting to Body Adjust and Vigor other people instead of just yourself is nice (especially Vigor, as I'm pretty sure it's about the most efficient source of temp HP in the game, and getting Body Adjustment as level 2 instead of 3 helps a bit), but psionic healing's biggest problem is really that the psionic healing powers aren't very good; there's no psionic power that offers the efficiency of even a Cure Light Wounds, let alone the fast-healing Vigor line, and nothing that gives the single-action burst of a Heal spell.. nevermind the "oh, was that status effect bothering you? 'k it's gone" cleansing that rides along on Heal. If you want good psionic-based healing, you really do have to homebrew something (or go 3rd party; Dreamscarred Press does have some decent options in there.)
Qwertystop
2011-09-25, 08:19 PM
I'm not. Read Piers Anthony, the Apprentice Adept series.
I just can't believe I missed that...
Maybe because I read more of his Xanth books than the Apprentice ones (sorta unavoidable, considering series size).
Tvtyrant
2011-09-25, 08:43 PM
... I have never read those, but the magic world is almost exactly what I was thinking. Now I am bummed out. :(
Oh well, at least my tech world is different (post-apocalyptic).
NNescio
2011-09-25, 08:50 PM
I'm not. Read Piers Anthony, the Apprentice Adept series.
Just hope you never be a Paladin in any one of Anthony's worlds. Or any Lawful character, really.
<inserts comment about anal-retentive DMs with twisted senses of morality.>
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