Is Polymorph any Object supposed to work like this?

[gooddragon1]

1>Find a rock. (Use magnets for faster acquire)
2>Take said rock and make it into a bigger rock (+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same or lower INT)
3>Break big rock into many smaller rocks (keep one in pocket)
4>Change each smaller rock into a greater stone golem (+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same or lower INT)
5>Retrieve rock from pocket and use as said rock in step 2 then rinse and repeat.
6>???
7>Profit.
8>Make the golems dance thriller.


A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his or her absence. The golem’s creator can order the golem to obey the commands of another person (who might in turn place the golem under someone else’s control, and so on), but the golem’s creator can always resume control over his creation by commanding the golem to obey him alone.

Of course, it won't be an elemental being bound into the golem... but since PaO can make intelligence it can definitely make something like a golem.

So now, you have an army of golems who are immune to most magic (can't be dispelled and also immune to AMF's), completely obedient, have a slew of immunities, are very strong, etc.

Is PaO supposed to be able to do this?

[Zaq]

PAO is pretty much one of the single most broken spells in the entire game, and I'd go so far as to say it's probably the single worst offender below level 9 (though there's some tough competition, no denying that). At this point I honestly have no idea what it's "supposed" to do.

I do think I missed a step, though . . . why not just start with a boulder or a pile of rocks instead of PAOing the first rock into a boulder? I don't see where that benefits you at all.

[BobVosh]

Supposed to? No.

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell.
Also that line would definitely make me rule against making golems.

[Zaq]

Supposed to? No.

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell.
Also that line would definitely make me rule against making golems.

Golems aren't items. They're creatures. And the spell CAN turn objects into creatures.

[gooddragon1]

On second thought:
1>PaO self into self with following improvements:
_X divine ranks (this one is okay though)
_X ability scores (so is this one)
_LoLwut ability (maybe not this one just yet because you don't get abilities)
(+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same size, +2 related)
2>???
3>Profit

4(Optional)> If paranoid, use divine ranks to grant wish to self of effect being instantaneous instead of permanent.

Pazuzu x3->wish for item of PaO 1 use (use activated)->follow steps 1 through 4... pun-pun? With core only?

[Yahzi]

Is PaO supposed to be able to do this?
In the 2E text description of the spell, it specifically stated two examples: turning a Zombie into a puppy dog, and turning a sand grain into a beach.

So, ya.

PaO is supposed to be broken.

[Runestar]

What do you expect from a spell where the least broken thing you could do is give the wizard base 30 int? :smallamused:

[gooddragon1]

What do you expect from a spell where the least broken thing you could do is give the wizard base 30 int? :smallamused:

I know... but pun-pun? Seriously? In core? Can divine ranks even do that?

[Grendus]

1>Find a rock. (Use magnets for faster acquire)
2>Take said rock and make it into a bigger rock (+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same or lower INT)
3>Break big rock into many smaller rocks (keep one in pocket)
4>Change each smaller rock into a greater stone golem (+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same or lower INT)
5>Retrieve rock from pocket and use as said rock in step 2 then rinse and repeat.
6>???
7>Profit.
8>Make the golems dance thriller.



Of course, it won't be an elemental being bound into the golem... but since PaO can make intelligence it can definitely make something like a golem.

So now, you have an army of golems who are immune to most magic (can't be dispelled and also immune to AMF's), completely obedient, have a slew of immunities, are very strong, etc.

Is PaO supposed to be able to do this?

It should work. Expect a DMG to the head though, that's an exploit on the level of chain gating solars.

[Starbuck_II]

8>Make the golems dance thriller.

Is PaO supposed to be able to do this?

No, sadly, it can't make them able to dance. You need Animate Object for that.

[Cruiser1]

4>Change each smaller rock into a greater stone golem (+5 same kingdom, +2 same class, +2 same or lower INT)

Sorry, not allowed the way I understand it. The Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) spell works the same as Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) except where stated differently. See first sentence of Polymorph Any Object spell. The main "stated differently" parts in Polymorph Any Object are the alternate duration times (potentially permanent), and the option to polymorph to or from an inanimate object. Parts that aren't specifically stated differently work the same as Polymorph, including the restrictions on creature type and HD when changing to a creature. Polymorph can't change to the construct type, and can't change beyond 15 HD. A Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#greaterStoneGolem) is a construct with 42 HD, which is two reasons why you can't change something into one.

Similarly, a Wizard can't use Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon) to get 32 base INT, because such a dragon has 38 HD. The caster could at least turn something into a Young Gold Dragon (16 INT) because that has 14 HD.

[sreservoir]

Sorry, not allowed the way I understand it. The Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) spell works the same as Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) except where stated differently. See first sentence of Polymorph Any Object spell. The main "stated differently" parts in Polymorph Any Object are the alternate duration times (potentially permanent), and the option to polymorph to or from an inanimate object. Parts that aren't specifically stated differently work the same as Polymorph, including the restrictions on creature type and HD when changing to a creature. Polymorph can't change to the construct type, and can't change beyond 15 HD. A Greater Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#greaterStoneGolem) is a construct with 42 HD, which is two reasons why you can't change something into one.

Similarly, a Wizard can't use Polymorph Any Object to turn into a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon) to get 32 base INT, because such a dragon has 38 HD. The caster could at least turn something into a Young Gold Dragon (16 INT) because that has 14 HD.

what, and disregarding half the examples given? one meaningless example, possibly an editing error. four? clearly that wasn't the intent.

[Jack_Simth]

Is PaO supposed to be able to do this?Couple of things...

1) Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) and it's Greater Counterpart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm), as well as the Final Word in the Series (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) are all "Spell Resistance: No", while the magic immunity for a Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem) says "A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance" - so your creation is not immune to Dispelling.

2) Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) inherits a 15 Hit Die limit from Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), which puts the Greater Stone Golem out of reach.

3) Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) inherits a type restriction from Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm), so you're only allowed "the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin" - Objects are not Constructs, so the Stone Golem (or any golem, for that matter) is out of reach, unless you've already got a Construct (rocks are Objects, not Constructs).

So no, it doesn't do that.

[Urpriest]

what, and disregarding half the examples given? one meaningless example, possibly an editing error. four? clearly that wasn't the intent.

That may contradict some 2E examples, but it doesn't contradict any of the 3.5 ones.

[sreservoir]

should PAO not inherit "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level"?

... actually, you know what, PAO is just broken.

[ericgrau]

The duration modifiers seem a bit generous compared to the examples in the spell description. For example a wool coat isn't even counted as the same class or kingdom as a sheep. Likewise I doubt that would work for stone and a stone golem. "Shrew to manticore" for 1 week seems like the practical duration limit for making something better. Gaining control of the resulting creature is another problem. So no thriller.

Typical ways to abuse it involve casting it twice to then get the duration permanent. Though I don't think it should actually stack with itself. If not by RAW (which might say no depending on your interpretation of the spell stacking rules), then at least by RAI or RAMS.



should PAO not inherit "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level"?

... actually, you know what, PAO is just broken.
It does, by the line that says it works like polymorph. By the rules that polymorph inherits, and the rules that that spell inherits, there's actually about a page or 2 of rules for PAO.

[Chilingsworth]

Pazuzu x3->wish for item of PaO 1 use (use activated)->follow steps 1 through 4... pun-pun? With core only?

Pazuzu isn't Core. :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

should PAO not inherit "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level"?

... actually, you know what, PAO is just broken.

If that was true, how much hp does a rock turn into a Manticore have? Remember rocks don't have HD.

[sreservoir]

If that was true, how much hp does a rock turn into a Manticore have? Remember rocks don't have HD.

in short, somehow I doubt the designers understood the rules they were writing, and as such there really isn't much meaning in how they're "supposed" to work.

[Shotaro]

I'd used it to turn a full plate set of armour into an Iron Maiden before which killed the occupant quite happily (was amazed the DM let it go but I'm not going to complain). I think getting golems to dance thriller is the least broken thing that spell can do

[Jack_Simth]

If that was true, how much hp does a rock turn into a Manticore have? Remember rocks don't have HD.
While not explicit, it's presumed an item with Hit Dice "-" is treated as having an appropriate number of Hit Dice when turned into something.

Hit Points, however, are fine - objects in D&D have hit points, and so can keep them.


I'd used it to turn a full plate set of armour into an Iron Maiden before which killed the occupant quite happily (was amazed the DM let it go but I'm not going to complain). I think getting golems to dance thriller is the least broken thing that spell can do
Fort Negates (Object). Attended objects use the wielder's saves if higher than their own. That's your basic Fort save or die.

[ericgrau]

Plus iron maidens should probably deal massive damage not insta-kill and you can't even tag magical full-plate. Complete warrior says its 5d6 per round.

The odd thing if you use the object's HP for the new creature is when you polymorph a boulder with hundreds of hit points. I think you're looking at about about 180 HP per caster level if you can find one at exactly the maximum size nearby. The problem is having one nearby that's sufficiently huge. If you shrink item one you're limited to 3.6 HP per caster level. 10'x10'x1" is 15 HP and 8-1/3 cubic feet.

It's a pretty cool spell by flavor and I think something between the rules and common sense might yield something usable.

[gooddragon1]

Pazuzu isn't Core. :smalltongue:

Tooshy.

Still a lot fewer books than normal pun-pun requires.

The rock example shows a lack of HD limit by exception (functions "like" polymorph).

Also, once you have pun-pun esque power


Tenacious Magic [Epic]
Prerequisites

Spellcraft 15 ranks.
Benefit

Choose one spell you know or spell-like ability you possess. Whenever the chosen form of magic would otherwise end due to a dispel effect, the magic is instead only suppressed for 1d4 rounds. The magic still ends when its duration expires, but the suppressed rounds do not count against its duration. You can dismiss your own spell or spell-like ability (if dismissible) or dispel your own tenacious magic normally.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different spell or spell-like ability.

Select PaO. :D

EDIT:
Iron Collosus


Magic Immunity (Ex)

An iron colossus is immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. An electricity effect restores 1 hit point to the iron colossus for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal.

Piece of iron (or currency) into iron colossus (cuz it's cooler than stupid stone colossus)

Any1 want to buy an iron colossus for 1cp? It's a great deal!

[Grendus]

EDIT:
Iron Collosus



Piece of iron (or currency) into iron colossus (cuz it's cooler than stupid stone colossus)

Any1 want to buy an iron colossus for 1cp? It's a great deal!

96 hit dice! Even if we assume the upper limit on PaO is uncapped, that's a really, really high CL. By the time you can hit that, well, let's just say there are easier ways to get more power.

[Incanur]

Polymorph any object is super weird. There's no clarity at all on what happens when you turn something without hit dice into something with hit dice. Judging by the polymorph rules, a lizard turned into manticore still only has half a d8. Given this example, it would be mighty strange if pebbles turned into stone golems had 14 hit dice. There's also no guidance given on how new created being regard the caster.

[ericgrau]

I dunno I find it kind of amusing to turn a few pebbles into stone golems to make your foes piss themselves, and then have them each drop in a single hit revealing a shattered pebble.

[Incanur]

I dunno I find it kind of amusing to turn a few pebbles into stone golems to make your foes piss themselves, and then have them each drop in a single hit revealing a shattered pebble.

Yeah, I think this is best way to run it. The line between transmutation and illusion blurs. But we again come to the question of how newly created creatures behave. Nothing suggests pebbles turned into stone golems would obey the caster.

[gooddragon1]

Yeah, I think this is best way to run it. The line between transmutation and illusion blurs. But we again come to the question of how newly created creatures behave. Nothing suggests pebbles turned into stone golems would obey the caster.


A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator.

Marionette to human does not specify what class levels it has. It could theoretically be a level 9001 Super Saiyan (XD (but in all honesty, there's no way that can be right... can it?)). By extension it does not matter what your CL is for the purposes of this spell creating things with lolsome HD.

[Incanur]

The quoted line from the Monster Manual refers to creating golems in laborious fashion describe there.

[gooddragon1]

The quoted line from the Monster Manual refers to creating golems in laborious fashion describe there.

That's cool, but it still mentions that it's "creator" can command it. You made it so you get to command it. Doesn't matter how you made it I'd say.

[gooddragon1]

On a side note, what book does it say pazuzu grants a wish in?

[ericgrau]

That's cool, but it still mentions that it's "creator" can command it. You made it so you get to command it. Doesn't matter how you made it I'd say.
That's being a bit overly literal lol, like drowning to heal. I'd say if you didn't magically program it you don't control it.

[gooddragon1]

That's being a bit overly literal lol, like drowning to heal. I'd say if you didn't magically program it you don't control it.

Still RAW though. If that's not good enough just say that you create them with an (obedience) subtype that makes them completely obedient to you.