Reaching the Perfect Self: A Challenge

[The Pale Knight]

Okay, Playgrounders.

What I am asking is tricky, no doubt about it. But I'm sure that such great strategic and intellectual prodigies as your fine selves are more than willing to give it a try :smallsmile:

Okay, flattery over: build me a monk :smalltongue:

Build me, using only Core materials (PH, DMG, MM), a monk that can well and truly contribute to a party without being overshadowed by the other members (except, y'know, clerics.... wizards... druids... maybe sorcerers... the Gods). A monk who can be proud of his class and calling, without having to break his ascetic vows with chocolate chip ice-cream every night on the floor of his bathroom, weeping :smallfrown:
I know there's only so much you can do with a class that is so completely antithetical to the idea of optimization and, well, being GOOD, but I'd really appreciate any ideas on the matter, for I intend to play one :smallbiggrin:
Multi-classing is okay, as long as it's not something along the lines of monk1druid19.
Even general suggestions as to gear, stat placement (assuming point buy) and nifty little tricks that can boost his usefulness would be much appreciated.
Good luck :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

What's that core build that doesn't use the monk class at all to do everything the Monk does, again? Someone trot that one out.

[Zaq]

You're going to have to remove at least a few of those restrictions, frankly. There's absolutely no way that a core-only Monk can keep pace with a Druid who isn't drooling on themselves. Period. It cannot be done. Not even with partially charged wands.

My best advice is to play some ridiculous high-LA creature and basically treat that as your class. You'll get nearly as much out of being an ogre as you will out of being a Monk.

[The Pale Knight]

Yeah, it's not promising, is it...
I don't expect a monk to be able to keep up with a druid, but in a more low-op party, even melee-focused, they still don't measure up - any way to fix that?
An ogre monk does sound pretty badass though, no denying that :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Gavinfoxx, any idea where I can find that build? Sounds like an interesting read.

[Eldariel]

Mock Monk is just Fighter using all its feats on Unarmed Strikes. Which sadly enough can kinda match a Monk in melee combat.

Anyways, the ways to optimize a Monk:
- Take 2 levels of Monk and leave the class.
- Take 6 levels of Monk and leave the class.

Since that's probably not what you want:
- Have insane point buy/rolls. This is the most important part! You need 3 18s and one 14-16 to compete with the other melee classes early on - later on you could do semi-decently with a Dex-focused build and not need as much Str but that wastes Improved Grapple and Improved Trip so better just suck it up and roll really well.
- Use your bonus feats to pick up Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes & Improved Trip. Pick Stunning Fist manually on 3 (it's not very useful before then anyways).
- Pick Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike ASAP (this would be level 6 though you might want to wait until level 9-12 for other feats).
- Pick up Ability Focus: Stunning Fist ASAP. Both, Ability Focus and Improved Natural Attack are in Monster Manual BTW.
- Leadership on level 6. Pick up a Wizard cohort to cast Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, Greater Magic Weapon, Polymorph & co. on you. Congratulations, now you are strong. Provided this is not possible it's imperative you seek for a source of Enlarge Person (it can be Permanencied tho beware Dispels if you go that route), Mage Armor and Greater Magic Fang/Weapon. Do note that Greater Magic Fang can also be Permanencied and a 20th level casting is unlike to get Dispelled (which you want anyways for +5 to hit) so that's something to consider.
- You don't need your hands free for Unarmed Strikes so it makes sense to have something else, e.g. a reach weapon that can trip (you don't even need proficiency; Guisarme or Spiked Chain are fine), in your hands. This is doubly true since you already have Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.

Rest is WBLmancy. You need:
- Flight
- Something to Incorporeals and maybe even Ethereals with
- Some ways to penetrate DR/Silver, /Cold Iron, /Slashing & /Piercing. Carry some weapons for those jobs, or get Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) with some useful properties. Necklace is not Core, mind. You also need Bless Weapon in scroll or something to pierce DR/Good.
- AC Boosters & stat boosters. You particularly need Str, Dex, Con & Wis boosters and all types of AC increasers you can find (since you can't use Shields anyways so you're automatically behind).

[Alleran]

Rest is WBLmancy. You need:
- Flight
The Feathered Wings graft should fix that, and they can't be suppressed either.

[Runestar]

It's hard, considering the monk can be replaced with a single spell (at 5th lv, a druid can use SNA to bring in a dire wolf that is pretty much superior to the monk in every way). :smallfrown:

In short, I don't even know where or how to begin. :smallsigh:

[The Pale Knight]

Thanks so much Eldariel, some great ideas there!
Perhaps I could try working the 20th Level Permanancied Greater Magic Fang into my backstory :P "Oh, yeah, my dad was an archmage... no big deal, didn't I tell you? Hmm, mustn't have come up..."
As to the whole "get as few monk levels as possible" school of thought, any suggestions as to other classes that complement monk levels without differing too much from the general archetype?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Awright... let's see if I can do this.

First off, we need to realize what we are dealing with, so we know what we need to take advantage of, and what we need to... umm... compensate for.

On paper, Monk actually has solid damage output, if we're talking straight Core and no full casters. The problem is... it's all on paper. If you can get a monk into position so that he can apply his flurry, and enough bonuses that it's actually a flurry of BLOWS rather than misses... he doesn't do too bad at this job.

Unfortunately, the problem with Flurry is that it requires a full attack. Which is tough to get while not getting yourself killed.

So what we need is a Core Monk who can get into position easily. This will be step one in our nefarious plot.

Step 2 deals with Reach. Specifically, monks don't have it, and are going to need it. Besides, reach is a pretty handy thing to have anyways. You generally get this by being Large.

There's two ways to get Large. 1) Be a large race (with a suitable LA and possibly RHD), or 2) get Enlarge Person permanencied on yourself.The latter throws WBL at the problem, but may be dispelled. The former never goes away.


Step 3 is survivability. Quite bluntly... monks only have a quarter of the equation. They've got good saves, granted. But that's *ALL* they have, in one of the most MAD classes around. They've even got Evasion if people are tossing Blastomancy at them. But their AC sucks unless their stats are astronomical. This will be something we can throw WBL at, to a limited extent.

So, how do we put it all together? Let's see if we can do it.

Well, the very first go-to for getting into place quickly is a Blink Dog, however technically you're not supposed to be able to be one. If you can get that hand-waved, it's 4RHD and +2 LA for a free-action Dim-Door to get into position. Or, we can Polycheese. Polymorph is a 4th level spell, which means it (barely) fits into a Wand.

Chokers are another fun go-to for playing unfair with the action economy. They get a free standard OR move action. This is also an option with Polycheese.

Pounce is another good way to get a full attack and move at the same time. Getting it will require Polymorph, but there's several forms which give you Pounce, most of them animals or dinosaurs.

Too bad you can't get Assume Supernatural Ability in Core, or Ethereal Filcher would be great. Go in Ethereal, go out of ethereal as part of your move action, hit him, then go ethereal as a free action to keep him from hitting you.

Minotaur. It's got 6RHD and +2 LA. That means you've only got 12 levels of Monk. Fortunately, the best ability you're going to want is at level 11. Even better, it gets a hefty bonus to Str, a +5 Natural Armor bonus, Large size for reach, and something it can do on a charge that isn't completely worthless.

Pixie. It's got a +4 LA, and it's only a small size, but there is something to be said for permanent invisibility. At least you have a chance of closing with your opponents now, even if your melee attacks now suck. But hey, landing sucky hits is better than not landing anything at all.

Vampire. Sure, it's a +8 LA, but again, our best class feature comes up at level 11, so that's no so bad. Negative levels on every hit, however, is exceedingly attractive. Sure, you're gonna need some way of protecting yourself from the sunlight. Best of all, you can go gaseous then dismiss the effect as a free action and make a full attack without having to worry about closing. And that Dominate Person thing? Perfect for negotiations.

So, let's see what we're getting here.

As a Vampire Monk12, you gain:

Perfect Flurry. Two extra attacks on a full attack, for a total of 4 attacks
Base 2d6 damage, that goes up to 2d8 with a Monk's Belt.
2 negative levels per hit.
+6 Natural Armor bonus
Ability to go Gaseous as a standard action (dismissing is always a free action)
Dominate Person

It's not... well... to be honest, it's probably STILL sub-par, and you need to lug a coffin around, and you need to stay out of the sun, and running water, and stay away from garlic and mirrors... but hey, at least you dish out no-save negative levels on every hit. That's worth something anyways. Right?

[Eldariel]

As a Vampire Monk12, you gain:

Perfect Flurry. Two extra attacks on a full attack, for a total of 4 attacks
Base 2d6 damage, that goes up to 2d8 with a Monk's Belt.
2 negative levels per hit.
+6 Natural Armor bonus
Ability to go Gaseous as a standard action (dismissing is always a free action)
Dominate Person

It's not... well... to be honest, it's probably STILL sub-par, and you need to lug a coffin around, and you need to stay out of the sun, and running water, and stay away from garlic and mirrors... but hey, at least you dish out no-save negative levels on every hit. That's worth something anyways. Right?

Biggest prob with Vampire Monk is that your To Hit will be atrocious. Your base To Hit is like...9 BAB and 3 points of bonus to Str. With 18 base Str you could have 24 start, 3 from levels, 5 from inherent and 6 from item to get 38 (+14); 2 points higher than a Half-Orc which would have 6 points higher BAB.

Base To Hit on level 20 would be:
9 BAB + 14 Str + 5 Enhancement = +28. We could probably squeeze in +3 from misc sources (Ioun Stone, Haste, Weapon Focus) so we're looking at +31 tops.


Well, that and the billion weaknesses that come with being a Vampire. Especially if some ******* decides to use Word of Chaos-line; it's almost 110% sure KO. And the fact that immunity to negative levels does become quite commonplace later on which can be a pain (though thanks to Str-focus and decent weapon die size it's not that bad).

The sad part is, it may still be the best you can do...


EDIT: @OP, same flavor you can find in Cleric. You could easily do Monk 2/Cleric 18 and be pretty good. All those Monk-weaknesses? Cleric spells more or less negate them. And Cleric has no problem being a monastic badass.

Tho if you do get obscenely high stats (it's really important for a Monk; do post your stats or stat generation method if any) you might be able to do reasonably compared to Fighters and Barbarians.

[ranagrande]

I recommend playing an Awakened Tiger.

You get Large size and great stats (+12 strength, +4 dex, +6 con, +2 wis, -(4-(1d3))cha, and your intelligence is a random roll of 3d6.)

You get 8 racial hit dice of Magical Beast, which are awesome for a melee type. Most importantly, you get Pounce. Take Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike) ASAP.

As a Magical Beast 8/Monk 12 you'll have a BAB of +17.

Assuming a starting strength of 10 (You should be able to do better) you can do the following on a charge:

+25 Unarmed Strike(3d8+6), Rake(1d8+3), Rake(1d8+3)
+23 Claw(1d8+3), Claw(1d8+3), Bite(1d8+3)
+20 Unarmed Strike(3d8+6)
+15 Unarmed Strike(3d8+6)
+10 Unarmed Strike(3d8+6)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Awakened animals aren't playable.

[Eldariel]

Awakened animals aren't playable.

The idea isn't entirely without merit though. A Weretiger would be a decent alternative. Afflicted Weretiger has 2 LA & 6 Animal HD. Natural Weretiger would have 3 LA and 6 Animal HD. Both can fit 11 levels of Monk.

[ranagrande]

Awakened animals aren't playable.
Where does it say that?

[Eldariel]

Where does it say that?

It's not a listed Template and they don't have listed LA, ergo they are not playable by RAW.

[Chronos]

What's the rest of your party? Depending on that, there might be some niche you can fit into to support the rest of them. You'll never be the star, but you can probably find some way to contribute consistently.

One trick I've heard, half-jokingly (but it would have some real value) is to have your monk wear a robe with stars and planets on it and a pointy hat, and have the party wizard wear a gi. Get all your enemies to focus their attacks on the defense-oriented guy, and ignore the real threat.

[tyckspoon]

I recommend playing an Awakened Tiger.

Two problems with this: Awakened animals still use the features of the Animal type, so only 3/4 BAB (not really a major problem, granted), and there's no means of determining the actual ECL of an Awakened creature. If they gave them official numbers, they'd almost certainly have LA in addition to the animal HD.

That said- there *are* detailed rules for being a lycanthrope, which has basically the same end result. Being a werebear or weretiger gives you access to some pretty decent Strength and Con buffs, as well as natural weapons and native access to a Large form. Personally, I think it still takes up too much ECL between the animal HD and the LA, but if you're talking Core restricted Monk you don't honestly have too much else to do with those levels for a game with a higher starting level.

You still probably want to go monstrous, mind- getting the natural weapons and natural armor bonus in there is one of the few things that synergizes especially well with the Monk's unarmed attacking. I recommend Lizardfolk. Str/Con bump, Int hit, claw/claw/bite, +5 Natural Armor. Still a Humanoid, so you can get yourself Enlarged when you have the money for it. Has enough attacks to make Mighty Fists a good buy, although you'll want to lobby for Magic Item Compendium's rules on combining basic effects so you can still put your Wisdom and Natural Armor amulets on there without selling limbs for it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Anthropomorphic animal, maybe?

[Zaq]

Anthropomorphic animal, maybe?

Not core-only, which the OP specified.

[ranagrande]

If you can't be an Awakened Tiger (I would ask the DM, just in case), a Weretiger is probably going to be your best bet.

[hex0]

The idea isn't entirely without merit though. A Weretiger would be a decent alternative. Afflicted Weretiger has 2 LA & 6 Animal HD. Natural Weretiger would have 3 LA and 6 Animal HD. Both can fit 11 levels of Monk.

I'd rather play a Were-Giant Octupus if I were a monk. That's a lot of grapple action and lots of chances to hit in a full attack: 8 Tentacles, Unarmed Strikes, and a bite. :smallcool:

Vampire might work as well but you'll have to start at ECL 12 :smallmad: Elf Vampire Monk might be decent

I really don't playing a larger race would be worth it because their racial HDs always suck. And the ECL for any core monster with Outsider or Dragon HD is waaaay to high. Just play something medium and have a spellcaster to enlarge you in your party.

The best you could do in Core would be uhh Monk 6/Fighter 14. Ugh.

Unless you are doing SRD then you could be a Psionic Fist maybe. Or play the Pathfinder Monk instead.

[Eldariel]

I'd rather play a Were-Giant Octupus if I were a monk. That's a lot of grapple action and lots of chances to hit in a full attack: 8 Tentacles, Unarmed Strikes, and a bite. :smallcool:

You already have plenty of attacks. The thing you want is Pounce to bring them to bear in actual fights. Tigers grapple just fine too, with Rakes and all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Personally, I think a Wand of Polymorph will be better off in the long run than templating, simply because you get the Pounce, which is what you need, without the obnoxious LA which burns your BAB even harder.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'll try to find the build... I think it used Blackguard somewhere...

[Zaq]

Personally, I think a Wand of Polymorph will be better off in the long run than templating, simply because you get the Pounce, which is what you need, without the obnoxious LA which burns your BAB even harder.

Partially charged, I hope?

[kardar233]

Speaking of natural attacks, wasn't there a rule somewhere that you could choose to deal your Unarmed Strike damage on natural attacks? Or was I hallucinating?

If so, go for a form like the Octopus or similar and smack them with as many 2d10 UAS shots as you can.

[Gavinfoxx]

I found it!

"Monk without a monk
Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 10/Blackguard 2/Dragon disciple 2
Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist
Items: +1 adamantine gauntlet of speed, Monk's belt, Periapt of health, Ring of evasion, Ring of feather falling (optional)

Use dragon disciple to get two extra 4th-level assassin spell slots, and put dimension door in one of them. Death Attack emulates Quivering Palm. Your DD natural weapons, gauntlet and +16 BAB emulate flurry. The blackguard's Dark Blessing improves your saving throws, and CLW 1/day makes up for Wholeness of Body. Still rather MAD, unfortunately (needs 14 Int for assassin spells, plus Wis 11 and good Cha for blackguard). Oh, and rogue and assassin have UMD as class skills. "

[faceroll]

I would want very high stats- like 16 in just about everything. Mix a little sorcerer in with the monk. Putting up Shield and Mage Armor boosts your AC a lot, and Chill Touch lasts for a number of attacks equal to your caster level. I would want to go like Monk2/Fighter1/Sorcerer7/Eldritch Knight 10. That gets a BAB of +15, 2 bonus feats, and 16th level sorcerer casting. With 8th level spells, you can definitely buff yourself up some sweet kung fu moves. Pick up Eschew Materials if you don't want to be stuck with the goofy components part of casting.

[silver spectre]

Build me, using only Core materials (PH, DMG, MM), a monk that can well and truly contribute to a party without being overshadowed by the other members

I'll have to see if I can find my sheet on him, but I played a Yuanti pureblood monk up to 21st level (including the racial HD) that was a very effective member of a six man group (3.5) that also included a necromancer/palemaster, Psion/monk, Cleric, druid, and a rogue/scout.