What is an uber-charger, and how much is one anyway?

[Hellwyrm]

Ok, so i'm new to the forums. Really new actually. So far i've seen lots of mentions of the uber-charger build. However, i've never seen a proper one, i.e. that i can pick apart so i can understand how they work.

Unfortunately, i have missed out on picking up the latest(ish) 3.5 books before they moved on to 4th edition, so any references to ToB, most of the Races of X books i will not be able to just look up>

Pretty much just post whatever would you think is an appropriate build for an ubercharger, combination of feats, classes whatever.
Thanks!

[Talya]

Ok, so i'm new to the forums. Really new actually. So far i've seen lots of mentions of the uber-charger build. However, i've never seen a proper one, i.e. that i can pick apart so i can understand how they work.

Unfortunately, i have missed out on picking up the latest(ish) 3.5 books before they moved on to 4th edition, so any references to ToB, most of the Races of X books i will not be able to just look up>

Pretty much just post whatever would you think is an appropriate build for an ubercharger, combination of feats, classes whatever.
Thanks!

Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) - at least 1 level (unless you have some other means of getting Pounce.)
Required Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.

That's really all there is to it. You're now making a full attack on a charge, power attacking for your full BAB (and applying the penalty to AC instead of To-Hit), and getting triple the power attack penalty to damage.

[Elitarismo]

Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) - at least 1 level (unless you have some other means of getting Pounce.)
Required Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.

That's really all there is to it.

There are things that add to charge damage and effects aside from those but that's the basics.

The principle behind the build is that enemies will kill you quickly no matter what you do, so the best defense is a good offense, and you try to charge them to kill them first.

[Urpriest]

Also, be aware that many people will draw a difference between an Ubercharger and a mere Charger, where an Ubercharger is the specific build that holds the charging damage record. I believe it involved abuse of the Tauric template, but that may be a different build.

[NeoSeraphi]

Here's a sample build (Since we're dealing with a pretty optimized build here, I'm going to optimize the character as much as possible to give you the 'best' example. If someone else notices a flaw in my logic, please point it out so the OP gets the most uber ubercharger he can):

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 10/Fighter 4

The Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is an ACF from Complete Champion. It allows the barbarian to give up his fast movement class feature in order to deliver full attack actions at the end of a charge. The Frenzied Berserker prestige class is from Complete Warrior.

Race: Water Orc (Unearthed Arcana)

Initial Stats (25 Point Buy):

Str 22 (18+4 Racial)
Dex 9
Con 16 (14+2 Racial)
Int 6 (8-2 Racial)
Wis 10
Cha 6 (8-2 Racial)

Feats:
1-Intimidating Rage
3-Destructive Rage
3 (Fighter bonus)-Power Attack
4 (Fighter bonus)-Cleave
6-Improved Bull Rush
6 (Fighter bonus)-Shock Trooper
7 (Frenzied Berserker bonus)- Diehard
9 Reckless Rage
12-Mounted Combat
15- Ride-By Attack
18- Spirited Charge
18 (Fighter Bonus)- Leap Attack
20 (Fighter Bonus)- Whatever you want


Gear:

+5 berserker valorous lance- both of these weapon enchantments are +1 from Unapproachable East. Berserker grants a +2 additional enhancement bonus to the weapon while the wielder is raging (which not only gives you more damage, but also allows your weapon to bypass DR/Epic, as it is a +7 lance) and valorous makes the weapon automatically double your damage on a charge.

+5 Manual of Gainful Exercise- obvious

+6 Belt of Giant Strength- Also obvious

And use the rest for whatever armor you want to wear.

Now, your Strength score ends up being 38 (+5 tome, +6 belt, +5 level). The battle starts. You rage, you frenzy. Your Strength score increases by 16, to 54.

You charge. You get to deliver a full attack. You use the Shock Trooper feat to drop your AC by 20 and get +20 Power Attack bonus damage, which is quadrupled by the Frenzied Berserker ability Supreme Power Attack. Also, because you are frenzying, you get an extra attack at your highest attack bonus. You make a leap attack and jump off your mount, piercing your opponent with your lance, which is enhanced due to the Spirited Charge feat. So your attack routine looks like this:

+53/+53/+48/+43/+38 (+20 BAB, +22 Str, +7 enhancement, +2 charging)

Your damage is 2d8+1680 per attack (33 Str, 7 enhancement, 240 Power Attack, all doubled by valorous, then tripled by Spirited Charge)

There we go! That's the ubercharger. What do you think?

Edit: I edited my build to include the stuff Swiftmongoose said. Can someone check the build? I don't know how the multipliers are supposed to stack. If you triple a double, do you get x6 or what? The current damage calculations are using x6.

I also don't know how Supreme Power Attack and Leap Attack work together. If we're using normal multipliers here, the BAB penalty should be multiplied by 12, which is what I did, but if that's not right someone can correct me.

[darksolitaire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't über-one include mounted charge and jumping of your mount when charging?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) - at least 1 level (unless you have some other means of getting Pounce.)
Required Feats: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack.

That's really all there is to it. You're now making a full attack on a charge, power attacking for your full BAB (and applying the penalty to AC instead of To-Hit), and getting triple the power attack penalty to damage.

That's just a charger, at level 6, he only gets about (assuming str 22 in rage) 34 damage per attack (2d6 is 7, +9 for str, +18 for PA and LA, with three attacks. Assuming two hits, that's barely enough to beat a melee opponent of your CR.

The übercharger is a build that stacks on the maximum amount of charge multipliers. Mounted combatant who uses Spirited Charge, but also jumps off his mount for Leap Attack, uses a valorous weapon, spirit lion totem barbarian dip for the multiple attacks, and maybe Battle Jump. Look up Little Red Raiding Hood as well.

[Zombimode]

and getting triple the power attack penalty to damage.

The return value with Leap Attack and a two-handed weapon is x4.

[NeoSeraphi]

The return value with Leap Attack and a two-handed weapon is x4.

No it's not (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1741-leap-attack.html)

[Hiro Protagonest]

The return value with Leap Attack and a two-handed weapon is x4.

Er, it's x3. But no, you don't take triple the penalty, your penalty:bonus is 1:3.

Edit: factotum'd! :smalltongue:

[Zombimode]

No it's not (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1741-leap-attack.html)

Hm, I recalled it was errata'd to +100% damage bonus, but reading the errata again, this seem to apply only to one-handed weapons :smallconfused:

[Talya]

That's just a charger, at level 6, he only gets about (assuming str 22 in rage) 34 damage per attack (2d6 is 7, +9 for str, +18 for PA and LA, with three attacks. Assuming two hits, that's barely enough to beat a melee opponent of your CR.


The term "ubercharger" was in use long before people had taken the build to the extreme end of optimization...and in fact, it was around almost immediately after the Leap Attack and Shock Trooper feats were published. (Finding ways to get pounce was more problematic at the time.)


Even assuming just 22 strength in a rage, 70 damage (you forgot the +1 weapon) in a round without a critical hit at level 6 tends to be rather spectacular at even moderate-op levels.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, be aware that many people will draw a difference between an Ubercharger and a mere Charger, where an Ubercharger is the specific build that holds the charging damage record. I believe it involved abuse of the Tauric template, but that may be a different build.

True. Usually, anything with charge multipliers, a level in lion totem barb, good bab, power attack and shock trooper works out quite well as a charger.

Optimization being what it is, you can do a lot to get the numbers really high. However, when you can reliably kill just about anything in a single charge, it's generally more practical to put your optimization juices to work on something else.

[Elitarismo]

Even assuming just 22 strength in a rage, 70 damage (you forgot the +1 weapon) in a round without a critical hit at level 6 tends to be rather average at even moderate-op levels.

Fixed that for you.

[Urpriest]

Fixed that for you.

At level 6 70 is half the hp of the highest-hp creature in the MM. Which is likely something stupid like a zombie or a monstrous vermin. A creature that is worth being treated as an actual threat will likely die from that damage.

[Elitarismo]

At level 6 70 is half the hp of the highest-hp creature in the MM. Which is likely something stupid like a zombie or a monstrous vermin. A creature that is worth being treated as an actual threat will likely die from that damage.

Precisely.

[Eldan]

I'd say the line between a regular charger and the übercharger can really be drawn at the point where you kill anything of remotely appropriate CR in a single charge, instead of just hitting it for a lot.

[Talya]

Fixed that for you.

No, you really didn't. It takes high op levels and often cheese to get damage at those levels. Let's compare:

A level 6 wizard/sorcerer is doing 21 damage (if they are silly and attempt to do damage.) The mailman might manage a bit more, but not by much, and the mailman is high-op.

A level 6 two weapon fighting rogue might manage 30 damage if they can hit with two attacks.

The top Tome of Battle strike for an IL6 character (which can only be used against larger foes) might also manage 29 manage (+1 greatsword +6d6 bonus damage). Most of the strikes do significantly less damage.



So yeah, 70 damage against a single target in a round at level 6 is pretty darn great.

[Elitarismo]

All you have done is illustrate how bad doing HP damage is, even at lower levels where it's generally thought of as alright. The real test though is the things you need to kill. 70 barely is enough to do so, so it's average. It takes a lot of effort to make HP damage merely average, which is part of the reason why chargers are the main melee build but that doesn't make it great or even good, it makes it average.

[Talya]

All you have done is illustrate how bad doing HP damage is, even at lower levels where it's generally thought of as alright. The real test though is the things you need to kill. 70 barely is enough to do so, so it's average. It takes a lot of effort to make HP damage merely average, which is part of the reason why chargers are the main melee build but that doesn't make it great or even good, it makes it average.

1) "It takes a lot of effort to make hp damage merely average" is a contradiction in terms. We're talking about average hit point damage. Average hit point damage is much lower than the basic charger at level 6, it is not even close to average. Nobody is talking about average power levels, just damage. We're ignoring save-or-suck/lose/die, we're ignoring the effectiveness of battlefield control. We're comparing hit point damage to hit point damage, and nothing else. Doubling-to-Tripling the damage output of any other character in the party does fit my definition of spectacular. Sure, at high-op levels, things change, but at low-to-moderate op levels, nobody is abusing cheese, most people are still playing the way WotC expected them to play: run up and smack stuff, wizards might even blast, and clerics might even heal.

2) You're not expected to kill an even CR opponent in one round, especially with hit point damage. It's expected to take 2-3 rounds for the entire party to do so. The fact that a single charger can (with better than 50% odds) take one out in the first round of combat is rather spectacular in its own right.

3) Tier-3/4 is considered the sweet spot for balance. You are arguing that TOB classes suck (are ineffective) because they do 1/3rd the damage at level 6 of a charger doing what you call "average damage." Meanwhile, TOB classes are considered quite effective Tier 3 types. Meanwhile, even using TOB in your game is a pretty good sign of moderate or higher op levels.

[tyckspoon]

Feats:
1-Intimidating Rage
3-Destructive Rage
3 (Fighter bonus)-Power Attack
4 (Fighter bonus)-Cleave
6-Improved Bull Rush
6 (Fighter bonus)-Shock Trooper
7 (Frenzied Berserker bonus)- Diehard
9 Reckless Rage
12-Mounted Combat
15- Ride-By Attack
18- Spirited Charge
18 (Fighter Bonus)- Leap Attack
20 (Fighter Bonus)- Whatever you want


Mounted-Leap-Attacking is somewhat questionable, thanks to the weirdness and general poorly-thought-out nature of mounted combat rules; I'm pretty sure this is why the Tauric template is used in the record-holder, so you can be your own mount (well, that and it's hilariously abusable on its own already.) And since you're an Orc, you forgot Headlong Rush; Orc specific feat, makes you draw AoO when you charge, but you get another doubling of damage.

[NeoSeraphi]

Mounted-Leap-Attacking is somewhat questionable, thanks to the weirdness and general poorly-thought-out nature of mounted combat rules; I'm pretty sure this is why the Tauric template is used in the record-holder, so you can be your own mount (well, that and it's hilariously abusable on its own already.) And since you're an Orc, you forgot Headlong Rush; Orc specific feat, makes you draw AoO when you charge, but you get another doubling of damage.

I've never heard of Headlong Rush. What is your source material for that feat?

Edit: Ah, so it's from Races of Faerun. Well, it's a fighter feat, so that can be the 20th level feat in my build. Also, I'm not sure about which Forgotten Realms books are 3.5 and which are 3.0 so I tend to not bring them up unless I'm sure. (I'm almost 98% sure that Unapproachable East is 3.5)

[Talya]

3.0 material is just as valid as 3.5 material in any 3.5 campaign, unless it has specifically been reprinted.

[Cicciograna]

I found this post (http://web.archive.org/web/20080214233419/forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662) that could be worth reading.

[Midnight_v]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose
That's just a charger, at level 6, he only gets about (assuming str 22 in rage) 34 damage per attack (2d6 is 7, +9 for str, +18 for PA and LA, with three attacks. Assuming two hits, that's barely enough to beat a melee opponent of your CR.



The term "ubercharger" was in use long before people had taken the build to the extreme end of optimization...and in fact, it was around almost

No. It really wasn't. I was there when that thing first got brought out and he kinda coined the phrase at the time over on the 339 op boards. It was a big deal because people argued if leap attack could be used mounted... it evolved to more damage from there. So yeah its a specific build, however, the uninformed will try to call any build with shocktrooper and a damage mutiplier an "Uber-charger".


A level 6 wizard/sorcerer is doing 21 damage (if they are silly and attempt to do damage.) The mailman might manage a bit more, but not by much, and the mailman is high-op.
It silly because thats not what they're supposed to be doing from a reasonable standpoint.
They're supposed to be playing god. However...

2) You're not expected to kill an even CR opponent in one round, especially with hit point damage. It's expected to take 2-3 rounds for the entire party to do so. The fact that a single charger can (with better than 50% odds) take one out in the first round of combat is rather spectacular in its own right.

Is pretty much crap, because there are spell casters(including spell casters on team monster) that totally do that.
This 3.5 game NEVER, worked as expected.
So that argument is moot especially when you consider how casters totally do end encounters all by themselves in a round.
Frankly, I prefer the lord of the save or die, as a mage.
Charging gets poo'd on because it is a calculable thing in my opinion. A dm can lie about his roll on a save but dealing a monster 100pts of damage and knowing it, is pretty much apparent to all. Thats not everybody but I've seen it enough in pbp, and at flgs, and in discussions over 8 years on the most popular boards how many bad decisions there are.
Tl;Dr: Charging is the only tactic on par with things like Deep Slumber, that totally pwn, any monster that isn't outright immune to sleep or has more than 10 hit die, and a huge list of other spells that win encounters outright by themselves, starts with grease and color spray, and ends with contingency timestops and gates.

@Wayback machine :biggrin: awesome you found it!

[Elitarismo]

1) "It takes a lot of effort to make hp damage merely average" is a contradiction in terms. We're talking about average hit point damage. Average hit point damage is much lower than the basic charger at level 6, it is not even close to average. Nobody is talking about average power levels, just damage. We're ignoring save-or-suck/lose/die, we're ignoring the effectiveness of battlefield control. We're comparing hit point damage to hit point damage, and nothing else. Doubling-to-Tripling the damage output of any other character in the party does fit my definition of spectacular. Sure, at high-op levels, things change, but at low-to-moderate op levels, nobody is abusing cheese, most people are still playing the way WotC expected them to play: run up and smack stuff, wizards might even blast, and clerics might even heal.

There is no contradiction. The standard is the enemies you face. 70 is barely enough to take one out. Therefore 70 is average, and not good or great. If you don't put forth any effort towards overcoming the innate, many flaws to HP damage you will do far less than 70. If you do, you will expend a great deal of effort to become merely average. To get HP damage up to something worth the effort and actions to do, you have to turn those default teens and twenties into meaningful numbers... like 70. If you can't do that, then you just focus on save or loses because nothing else will matter. This is the PF flaw. Unlike PF though, 3.5 characters can make HP damage viable.


2) You're not expected to kill an even CR opponent in one round, especially with hit point damage. It's expected to take 2-3 rounds for the entire party to do so. The fact that a single charger can (with better than 50% odds) take one out in the first round of combat is rather spectacular in its own right.

And if that actually happens, you have a death:fight ratio of 1:1 at the least. The reality is anyone is a maximum of twelve seconds from death at any time. If you're not one rounding enemies, they are 1-2 rounding you. And that's just normal, at level, unaltered enemies.


3) Tier-3/4 is considered the sweet spot for balance. You are arguing that TOB classes suck (are ineffective) because they do 1/3rd the damage at level 6 of a charger doing what you call "average damage." Meanwhile, TOB classes are considered quite effective Tier 3 types. Meanwhile, even using TOB in your game is a pretty good sign of moderate or higher op levels.

No, I'm calling weak characters weak. A properly made ToB character can do a lot better. The centerpiece of most melee builds is a Barbarian dip, which is lower tier. A Fighter can do a lot better, even without charging and it is lower tier still.

Using ToB in your games isn't a sign of moderate or higher op levels. It's a sign that the DM doesn't want to limit his players, and his opposition to primary casters. It's not the only one, but it's one of the biggest signs he knows what he's doing.

[Midnight_v]

Using ToB in your games isn't a sign of moderate or higher op levels. It's a sign that the DM doesn't want to limit his players, and his opposition to primary casters. It's not the only one, but it's one of the biggest signs he knows what he's doing

Wow. Plus one. So real I had to spell out +1.

It sucks trying to make bad-a melee dude, and realize its better in almost ever scenario to being almost any other classs than the base classes designed for that role.

[herrhauptmann]

For the posted build, you forgot to include a smoking weapon.
It's another +1 enchantment, but it grants miss chances against enemies attacking you. Since the enemy can pretty much auto-hit, that's going to be really useful for survivability.


I'm with the others in saying that 70 damage on average, at level 6 is pretty fantastic. You're doing in one action what should take three or four less optimized (ie: normal) characters working together to accomplish in a 2 or more rounds. The game isn't supposed to be rocket tag where all monsters and players get die in one round.

The problem with HP damage being 'weak' is that monsters are just as deadly at 2 HP, as they are at 200 HP. (Sometimes more so if they have abilities that activate when hurt to a certain percentage) So if the uber-charge rolls badly on his attacks, he's dead.

[TroubleBrewing]

So if the uber-charge rolls badly on his attacks, he's dead.

Well, that's one of the reasons a charger is superior to a build that relies on precision damage. He's rolling maybe one to three damage dice, and then adding like a thousand. If he rolls a one on the damage die, oh noes, he only gets 1001 damage! If he rolls a ten, meh, he gets 1010. Precision characters that roll that fist-full-d6's have the whole "average die result" issue.

[Talya]

There is no contradiction. The standard is the enemies you face. 70 is barely enough to take one out. Therefore 70 is average, and not good or great. If you don't put forth any effort towards overcoming the innate, many flaws to HP damage you will do far less than 70. If you do, you will expend a great deal of effort to become merely average. To get HP damage up to something worth the effort and actions to do, you have to turn those default teens and twenties into meaningful numbers... like 70. If you can't do that, then you just focus on save or loses because nothing else will matter. This is the PF flaw. Unlike PF though, 3.5 characters can make HP damage viable.

You don't compare to the monsters, you compare to what the other players are doing.


No, I'm calling weak characters weak. A properly made ToB character can do a lot better. The centerpiece of most melee builds is a Barbarian dip, which is lower tier. A Fighter can do a lot better, even without charging and it is lower tier still.

A TOB character is "properly made" out of the box, single classed, without anything other than core and TOB feats. You're using high-op multiclassing scenarios and dips and calling them "properly made." Most DMs will have a fit with these types of builds. They're more theoretical than real builds.

A typical low-op single-class fighter with the weapon focus and power attack lines only sucks when compared against core wizard/druid/cleric/sorcerer. It's still very viable and very survivable in game. You're not always 12 seconds away from death. Contrary to popular believe, core melees can go toe-to-toe with core dragons and survive, easily (assuming they have their party with them.) The problem with charOp boards and the like is people who frequent them get an unbalanced idea of what you need for the game to be playable. With no optimization at all, the core classes all function (except maybe monk.) Hell, with no optimization at all, the core fighter functions better than the core wizard (since a degree of system mastery is required for a wizard to even survive, let alone be effective. Of course, they get that system mastery under control and proceed to turn most battles into a cakewalk, but that's another issue.) The game isn't usually that lethal. Most of your opponents are also low-op fighters or melee type builds. Or mindless undead, or animals, or magical beasts without a plethora of SLAs.

[herrhauptmann]

Well, that's one of the reasons a charger is superior to a build that relies on precision damage. He's rolling maybe one to three damage dice, and then adding like a thousand. If he rolls a one on the damage die, oh noes, he only gets 1001 damage! If he rolls a ten, meh, he gets 1010. Precision characters that roll that fist-full-d6's have the whole "average die result" issue.

Unless he rolls a two or three on all of his attacks.
Then all the damage dice and static multipliers in the world won't matter.
Also, precision damage, isn't that usually reference to sneak attack or sudden strike?

[soulchicken]

Ok, an uber chargers rolls a 2 or 3 on attacks. He's full bab, super high str, and bonuses due to charging/weapon bonuses. In the proposed build at 20, the charger has 54 to hit. That hits anything in the monsters manual on a roll of 2 or better for at least the first hit, and that one hit is an insta gib for anything in the monsters manual.

And yes, sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish are all types of precision damage.

[Urpriest]

Using ToB in your games isn't a sign of moderate or higher op levels. It's a sign that the DM doesn't want to limit his players, and his opposition to primary casters. It's not the only one, but it's one of the biggest signs he knows what he's doing.

Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.

[Talya]

Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.

Yeah, that's rather where I was going with that.

Of course, it's not absolute. Your DM may allow every book the players bring him and none of them have a clue. But in my experience most lower-op DMs disallow TOB because it makes the core melees feel inferior (because they usually are.) They haven't yet made the connection that they're already inferior to Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Sorcerer/Bard. (although, this could be because nobody in their campaign knows how to properly play a spellcaster, in which case, the DM is probably right about banning TOB...it's only once people have some idea what they are doing that it becomes apparent TOB is an improvement on melee balance.)

[herrhauptmann]

Ok, an uber chargers rolls a 2 or 3 on attacks. He's full bab, super high str, and bonuses due to charging/weapon bonuses. In the proposed build at 20, the charger has 54 to hit. That hits anything in the monsters manual on a roll of 2 or better for at least the first hit, and that one hit is an insta gib for anything in the monsters manual.

And yes, sneak attack, sudden strike and skirmish are all types of precision damage.

And here I was discussing the level 6 build, not the completed level 20 version...

[soulchicken]

And here I was discussing the level 6 build, not the completed level 20 version...

Tally up the level 6 one.

6+str of 24, 26 base?+2str for magic items+4 str for rage+2 for charging +1 for the weapon=20ish?

What's the average ac of a cr 6 monster?

A character built around charging has a very good chance ofhitting anything they swing at. Chargers hit more consistently than precision damage dealers.

[TroubleBrewing]

@ Herrhauptmann: Some lines of communication got crossed. I was referring to damage rolls, not attack rolls. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, if he misses his attacks, that sucks, but that hurts the precision guy just as much. (I did pull precision-based damage pretty much out of nowhere, mostly just as an example of another high-damage build.)

[herrhauptmann]

Tally up the level 6 one.

6+str of 24, 26 base?+2str for magic items+4 str for rage+2 for charging +1 for the weapon=20ish?

What's the average ac of a cr 6 monster?

A character built around charging has a very good chance ofhitting anything they swing at. Chargers hit more consistently than precision damage dealers.

Hmmm, point.
My charger types don't usually have stats quite that good (nor are they barbarians), so even with a charge, they'll still miss about half the time. Forgot to take that into account.

[soulchicken]

Hmmm, point.
My charger types don't usually have stats quite that good (nor are they barbarians), so even with a charge, they'll still miss about half the time. Forgot to take that into account.

Please don't take this in a mean way, but perhaps they aren't doing it right.

If your job is to charge in enemies and drop enemies, then you need a few things.

1. Very consistent hit percentage. High str through race/template/levels/magic items combined with high bab through class and shock trooper is what makes sure that you can drive your hit percentage to 95% or as close to it as possible.
2. Very high damage. If you are going to charge in amongst enemies, you better be able to drop them.
3. High HPs. You need to be able to survive charging in amongst enemies

So, if you have chargers that are wiffing half the time, then they aren't doing their jobs right.

However, if your chargers are doing all the above, then perhaps the DM is throwing enemies at you that have arbitrarily high AC or higher CR then normal.

[herrhauptmann]

Well I've yet to be in a game that allowed Spirit Lion Totem or other forms of pounce.
Nor have the other players been up to the task of making characters at that level of optimization.

If I one-shot a monster, we'll just face a stronger monster next time. And I one-shot that one too, so the third is even stronger.
I could one-shot that third one, unless he wins initiative and eats half the party before I can hit him.

Under those circumstances, "not making my charger right" is the right choice. While the ubercharger that deals 2d6+1000 damage should remain solely a thought exercise.

[Elitarismo]

I'm with the others in saying that 70 damage on average, at level 6 is pretty fantastic. You're doing in one action what should take three or four less optimized (ie: normal) characters working together to accomplish in a 2 or more rounds. The game isn't supposed to be rocket tag where all monsters and players get die in one round.

Except that not only is the game rocket tag at all levels, but most of the swordswingers missed out on the memo that they should pick up a launcher. It takes a lot of work to get them playing the same game as everyone else, but that doesn't make it exceptional or impressive when they do.


The problem with HP damage being 'weak' is that monsters are just as deadly at 2 HP, as they are at 200 HP. (Sometimes more so if they have abilities that activate when hurt to a certain percentage) So if the uber-charge rolls badly on his attacks, he's dead.

That is the reason why 70 is merely average. Because what happens when you hit for teens, or twenties, or 69 is that the enemy survives and then kills you.

If the charger doesn't one round his enemy, he's probably dead. But he has a non zero chance to not be dead, unlike the guys swinging for teens and twenties. It's not even worth writing that down.


You don't compare to the monsters, you compare to what the other players are doing.

Wrong. You're not fighting your party, you're fighting those guys over there. What matters is your ability to kill those guys over there before those guys over there kill you. If you're stuck with teens and twenties, your ability to not die in each and every encounter you face will be the sole purview of the party save or lose casters. No one else contributes to that victory in any way. If there isn't such characters, or they don't do their thing? Enemies hit you, you hit the floor.


A TOB character is "properly made" out of the box, single classed, without anything other than core and TOB feats. You're using high-op multiclassing scenarios and dips and calling them "properly made." Most DMs will have a fit with these types of builds. They're more theoretical than real builds.

If you get a DM that throws a fit because someone created a martial character that might be able to do something other than act as a pinata for the monsters, you take note of the warning sign that that DM has no idea what he is doing, and if feeling vindictive you destroy his campaign with a core only Druid to set him straight.

Complaining about martial characters dipping many different classes is like complaining that the sun is hot.


A typical low-op single-class fighter with the weapon focus and power attack lines only sucks when compared against core wizard/druid/cleric/sorcerer. It's still very viable and very survivable in game.

And then initiative is called for, combat begins, and suddenly they aren't so viable and survivable anymore. Actually scratch that, before combat there is presumably some sort of out of combat segment. With exactly 0 skills to contribute, the Fighter is a wall decoration. This is because such a character sucks compared to level appropriate opposition. As in those guys over there that they are fighting.


You're not always 12 seconds away from death.

True. You are a maximum of 12 seconds from death. That, by definition means it sometimes takes less than 12 to die.


Contrary to popular believe, core melees can go toe-to-toe with core dragons and survive, easily (assuming they have their party with them.)

For up to 12 seconds, though likely closer to 6 in that instance.


The problem with charOp boards and the like is people who frequent them get an unbalanced idea of what you need for the game to be playable.

You are aware that many of the people on optimization boards arrived there because they tried to play something bad (say, a core Fighter with PA and WF), learned it was bad the hard way, was curious to see what they did wrong and found those forums and communities that way, through their own experiences?

The good optimizers at least have a very good grasp of what is required of them. Unfortunately there are others that will set you up to fail, with such comments as "teens and twenties damage at level 6 is viable".


With no optimization at all, the core classes all function (except maybe monk.) Hell, with no optimization at all, the core fighter functions better than the core wizard (since a degree of system mastery is required for a wizard to even survive, let alone be effective. Of course, they get that system mastery under control and proceed to turn most battles into a cakewalk, but that's another issue.) The game isn't usually that lethal. Most of your opponents are also low-op fighters or melee type builds. Or mindless undead, or animals, or magical beasts without a plethora of SLAs.

Even if you ignore enemies with spellcasting ability, they still flat out kill you in one or two full attacks. And that means that the core non caster classes are just wasted space. Except Monk, non core redeems them but in core only? Forget about it, your party is Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Wizard.

All that's required for a Wizard to be good is for them to realize that casting a spell to do less damage than their crossbow which has more ammo is bad and casting a spell to instantly take out enemies in an area is good. And that's good enough to MVP any core only encounter.

Adding non core to the mix makes things more balanced, not less as suddenly martial characters are not throwaways, and suddenly things have better saves and so forth.


Knowing what you're doing (and using that knowledge to better the game) is the definition of optimization. That's quite literally what it means.

You know as well as I do that that wasn't what they were getting at. How else do you explain comments like "ToB makes core only melee feel inferior" when the problem was that the stuff that they were fighting did that years before Tome of Battle made non magical sword swinging better.

[Incanur]

Except that not only is the game rocket tag at all levels, but most of the swordswingers missed out on the memo that they should pick up a launcher.

What rockets do casters shoot at level six? You'll find few even functional save-or-dies here like deep slumber and hold person. Because of their limitations, save-or-suck spells typically receive the recommendation instead. Spells such as great thunderclap and slow aren't rockets by any reasonable definition.


If the charger doesn't one round his enemy, he's probably dead.

You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.

[Firechanter]

For the record, "standard", unoptimized damage output at level 6 is something like 2d6+(1,5*4)+(2*2)+1+2 -> 20 points of damage per attack. This includes Weapon Specialization because, repeat, we are talking "unoptimized".

So yeah, doing 70 damage on a charge at that level is pretty awesome.

Picking out one CR6 monster at random, I got the Babau, which has... 66HP. Looking at some more, most CR6s have less than 60HP.
So our Ubercharger would totally be able to one-shot this bugger. A creature, may I remind you, whose Challenge Rating implies that it's supposed to eat 20% of the resources of _four_ level 6 characters. Instead, it will eat _zero_ resources if the Charger gets to act first and do his shtick.

@Thread Creator:
Spirit Lion Barb is one pretty common way to get Pounce, but not the only one. There's also a ToB maneuver that gives you Pounce, but isn't available before level 9 and has some prerequites. Another way would be a Psionic power, available to a PsyWar at level 4. There are more, but those seem to be the most common ones for a Melee type.

The problem with Charging is that there are umpteen ways to foil a charge. It starts with difficult terrain and extends to a number of spells that deny the pony its one trick. We've gathered a bunch of ways to stop a charge here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10475251&postcount=71).

[Elitarismo]

What rockets do casters shoot at level six? You'll find few even functional save-or-dies here like deep slumber and hold person. Because of their limitations, save-or-suck spells typically receive the recommendation instead. Spells such as great thunderclap and slow aren't rockets by any reasonable definition.

Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud... All either render enemies completely incapable of fighting back or remove so much of their ability to fight back that it's close enough to a complete removal.

Even something like Great Thunderclap is both a strong and a weak save or lose in an AoE at the same time. The deafen part is ignorable sure, but you're still hitting a strong and a weak one at once. Even so the best spell rockets are core only. So you'll still be dealing with those.


You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.

I see that you cherry picked one of the weaker examples. Even so a Fighter at that level has 49 HP. That's in two round range even then.

The 20% of resources thing has always been a farce, and you know it.

[Talya]

Yeah, most 3.5 monsters simply aren't that dangerous. The Ettin example was good.

An even-level CR can often be soloed by a pure fighter using only core. A party of 4 is meant to face 4-5 even-levelled CR encounters a day, the average encounter is expected to use more than 25% of a party's daily resources. Yet most of the time, you don't even face even levelled CRs. You instead face multiples of lower levelled CRs together. (Which, btw, is an amusing way for a DM to counter the "rocket-tag" effect of charger builds...if you are facing three times as many enemies, none of them with more than 1/3 the hit points you do in a charge, then your charging is pointless.)

Let's take a look at one of the most powerful of melee opponents, the Dragon.

A typical CR6 dragon is a Juvenile White. It has a 4d6 breath weapon, and 102 hit points. It has a +15 primary attack modifier (which is about a 60-70% hit rate against a level 6 fighter in full plate), and hits for 1d8+3 with that attack. It also gets a pair of 1d6+1 claw attacks and a pair of 1d4+1 wing attacks at +10. It has 21 AC.

Now, admittedly, a white is not the pinnacle of dragon power, but we are talking about a CR6 here. The very young CR5 red does a bit more damage, but is actually easier to beat (unsurprising, it's a lower CR). There's not a chance in hell the CR-appropriate white one-shots the fighter, he's averaging 12 damage per full attack, and it's going to take at least three rounds, probably more, and the fighter is getting healed during this time, too.

This is significantly tougher than the typical encounter at that level.

[tyckspoon]

You exaggerate the capabilities of stock 3.5 monsters. For example, an ettin deals an average of 26 damage if it connects with both attacks. That's not going to kill a six-level martial character.

CR6 also contains the Girallon and 7-headed Hydra, which are probably the highpoints of that level for potential damage output (Honorable Mention for a Kyton using its Dancing Chains ability to control four spiked chains at once.) Girallon gets 4 claws, bite, and bonus Rend if it hits with any two claws; on a full hit damage from Strength bonus alone is (4x6) + 3 + 9 = 36. Rolled damage will add between 7 and 32 more. That might not drop an especially beefy 6th level character, but 2 rounds of it will. The Hydra is, well, a Hydra. Its attack is 7d10 + 24, range 31 to 94 damage. Again, you'll probably survive one round, you probably won't survive 2. (That is neglecting hit rolls; if you're actually building for AC, you can reduce these monsters to a 50% or lower chance to hit, which should make them quite survivable for at least as long as it takes the rest of your party to get rid of them. On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)

[Talya]

On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)

That's rather the point of shock trooper though, isn't it? You don't get something for nothing. Chances are, even if you do kill it, you're in for a lot of pain, as the bad guy's three buddies all gang up on you next. "Rocket tag" is a good name for charger combatants, so long as you remember that the charger is the rocket themselves, and not the person firing it. You probably only get to use them once. :smallbiggrin:

[Elitarismo]

Yeah, most 3.5 monsters simply aren't that dangerous. The Ettin example was good.

An even-level CR can often be soloed by a pure fighter using only core. A party of 4 is meant to face 4-5 even-levelled CR encounters a day, the average encounter is expected to use more than 25% of a party's daily resources. Yet most of the time, you don't even face even levelled CRs. You instead face multiples of lower levelled CRs together. (Which, btw, is an amusing way for a DM to counter the "rocket-tag" effect of charger builds...if you are facing three times as many enemies, none of them with more than 1/3 the hit points you do in a charge, then your charging is pointless.)

More than 25% like... 1 person per encounter? I'm glad we're in agreement then.

Multiple lower level enemies do more damage collectively, so that just means more rockets going your way and the charger isn't as good at dealing with them (which is why you would want more than one damage dealer to be capable of doing their job).

And if you want to play the alternate encounter card, boss fights are like normal fights except there's four of them at once. At that point you really do need everyone pulling their weight, because if any two enemies get a turn, at least one person is going down.

The simple fact of the matter is that a spoony bard does damage in the twenties at this level, and if a Bard is contributing as much, or more damage than the people that do nothing but damage and that's before counting what his songs do for everyone else then you are not a contributing party member.

That is also not how you calculate averages. 1d8+3 1d6+1 1d6+1 1d4+1 1d4+1 is a lot more than 12. And that's before giving the dragon the feats and items available to it. I don't think it can cast spells at that level. So even the Medium dragon performs far better than you give it credit for.


CR6 also contains the Girallon and 7-headed Hydra, which are probably the highpoints of that level for potential damage output (Honorable Mention for a Kyton using its Dancing Chains ability to control four spiked chains at once.) Girallon gets 4 claws, bite, and bonus Rend if it hits with any two claws; on a full hit damage from Strength bonus alone is (4x6) + 3 + 9 = 36. Rolled damage will add between 7 and 32 more. That might not drop an especially beefy 6th level character, but 2 rounds of it will. The Hydra is, well, a Hydra. Its attack is 7d10 + 24, range 31 to 94 damage. Again, you'll probably survive one round, you probably won't survive 2. (That is neglecting hit rolls; if you're actually building for AC, you can reduce these monsters to a 50% or lower chance to hit, which should make them quite survivable for at least as long as it takes the rest of your party to get rid of them. On the other hand, if you Shock Troopered one and failed to kill it, you're in for a lot of pain.)

You only live once. That's the thing. You might reduce the chance of them hitting, but they will eventually hit enough times. And eventually means later in the same adventuring day most likely. That's why using weighted averages to attempt to calculate the damage you take doesn't work. You either win every fight or you lose once and make a new character/get an expensive raise. That means the best defense is a good offense, aka kill them first. Shock Trooper, while not the best does manage to do this. Whereas the limp wristed sorts have no recourse but to die.

But there's nothing wrong with sword swingers being able to play D&D just like everyone else.

[Talya]

That is also not how you calculate averages. 1d8+3 1d6+1 1d6+1 1d4+1 1d4+1 is a lot more than 12.

I was fairly generous with the average.

65% chance of hitting with the primary.
Average damage of 1d8+3 = 7.5
65% of 7.5 = slightly less than 5. Round up.

40% of hitting with the secondary attacks.
The average of 2d6+2d4+4 = 16.
40% of 16 = 6.4. I rounded up to 7.

5+7 = 12.

[Incanur]

Slow, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud... All either render enemies completely incapable of fighting back or remove so much of their ability to fight back that it's close enough to a complete removal.

Somebody still has to fully incapacitate them somehow or they'll recover. Blinding your foes isn't the same as simply obliterating them - not aesthetically and not practically.


I see that you cherry picked one of the weaker examples.

I just grabbed the ettin arbitrarily with no particular intent. It's status as a classic D&D critter might have drawn me to it.


Even so a Fighter at that level has 49 HP.

Assuming a human with a 25pt point buy, maybe. Even then they might have 16 Con.


That's in two round range even then.

Combat does usually end in 2-3 rounds in my experience. That's with characters ranging from outrageously incompetent to fairly optimized. Rocket tag doesn't quite describe the dynamic except for the charger builds in question. The power of long-duration buffs makes dispelling almost mandatory at higher levels. You often can't simply hurl a save-or-die or massive damage combo and expect results.

[Urpriest]

You know as well as I do that that wasn't what they were getting at. How else do you explain comments like "ToB makes core only melee feel inferior" when the problem was that the stuff that they were fighting did that years before Tome of Battle made non magical sword swinging better.

{Scrubbed}

You commented that a 70 dpr charger is not particularly optimized. Several people have pointed out that it is, because degree of optimization measures degree of effort and knowledge put into making a build better at what it does, not how effective the build is in general. Hence the relative irrelevance of optimization levels to the Tier system. You continue to misinterpret their arguments as arguments about what behavior is appropriate in-game, when they are clearly semantic. You used a word differently from how others on this forum use it, and you are ignoring the attempts of the community to correct you.

[Elitarismo]

Somebody still has to fully incapacitate them somehow or they'll recover. Blinding your foes isn't the same as simply obliterating them - not aesthetically and not practically.

1 round/level. Much longer than they will live. HP damage at that point is a formality. Battle's over. Snape killed Dumbledore. Go home.


Assuming a human with a 25pt point buy, maybe. Even then they might have 16 Con.

I assumed 32. 18 Str, 14 Con leaves 10 for the other stats. 16 Con only leaves 6. Even then, 55 HP is still (barely) in two round range. Because despite what some people think and as I have already pointed out once, you don't use weighted averages here.


Combat does usually end in 2-3 rounds in my experience. That's with characters ranging from outrageously incompetent to fairly optimized.

Which means that you better hope you go first.

[Incanur]

1 round/level. Much longer than they will live.

Glitterdust starts out at only three rounds and blind foes can still kill you even if it's not terribly likely. The classic God strategy assumes a Big Stupid Fighter of some sort. Without someone to capitalize on the opportunities created, debuffs and battlefield control become less impressive.

[Big Fau]

Well I've yet to be in a game that allowed Spirit Lion Totem or other forms of pounce.
Nor have the other players been up to the task of making characters at that level of optimization.

If I one-shot a monster, we'll just face a stronger monster next time. And I one-shot that one too, so the third is even stronger.
I could one-shot that third one, unless he wins initiative and eats half the party before I can hit him.

Under those circumstances, "not making my charger right" is the right choice.

That's not a choice. That's a DMing problem. If your DM keeps upping the ante like that, and it gets to the point where half of the party gets wiped or otherwise rendered useless, then the DM is the problem. It's a sign that the DM is not prepared to deal with any amount of optimization at all, and wants the encounters to play out like a Final Fantasy boss fight.

To repeat: That isn't a choice. The DM is literally trying to force you to slow down in combat, and doesn't understand that most 3.5 Encounters last less than 5 rounds by default. The old-fashioned "Random enemy in the middle of an open field" type encounters typically last under 3 unless they are significantly stronger than the party's ECL, at which point the party lasts under 3 rounds.

[Talya]

That's not a choice. That's a DMing problem. If your DM keeps upping the ante like that, and it gets to the point where half of the party gets wiped or otherwise rendered useless, then the DM is the problem. It's a sign that the DM is not prepared to deal with any amount of optimization at all, and wants the encounters to play out like a Final Fantasy boss fight.

To repeat: That isn't a choice. The DM is literally trying to force you to slow down in combat, and doesn't understand that most 3.5 Encounters last less than 5 rounds by default. The old-fashioned "Random enemy in the middle of an open field" type encounters typically last under 3 unless they are significantly stronger than the party's ECL, at which point the party lasts under 3 rounds.

In my experience, between levels 1-18, anyway (i've never played higher than that), 4-5 rounds is a typical battle. Now, admittedly, I was the only one with a touch of optimization through most of the campaign (and even she had some intentionally suboptimal choices for flavor) --we had my sorceress/heartwarder, a dwarf paladin, a dwarf fighter/cleric (who was about our least powerful party member -- too much focus on smacking stuff on a character who couldn't do it well), and a 2wf Ranger/fighter (who was actually pretty effective, even without the bonus damage). Needless to say, the party took a while to kill stuff, but we actually had only one death in the entire campaign -- and it wasn't like we only fought easy stuff. It was mostly demons and dragons the entire time, in addition to the easier ones - cultists and drow mercenaries and a fallen paladin/blackguard.

I actually support exactly what you describe here - the monsters in D&D are well balanced already against the type of party we had above. This is what people don't get...it's not the encounters that outclass Tier 3-5 characters. It's the tier 1-2 characters that outclass everything else. If people start optimizing heavily, to maintain the challenge level, the DM has to creep higher as well. If we'd had an ubercharger, and the DM hadn't flat out refused it, he would have been well advised to start making heavier use of difficult terrain and obstacles, or ensuring said ubercharger was heavily attacked whenever his AC was down from a charge. Doing so would have been just good DMing.

[Hurnn]

{{Scrubbed}}