How to make my rules-lawyer DM less.. rules-lawyer-ish?

[Mockingbird]

Hi, I've had a DM who is quite a rules lawyer for along time now.. My sibling, who is also in the party, agrees with me. The bard, the fighter (everyone hates him except the DM >:/), and the healer don't comment about it, but we like the DM as a person, but he seems to think that if it isn't in the rules, you can't do it. Any ideas?

[Kol Korran]

not sure i can help, but here are some thoughts:

- being a rules lawyer often stems from one of motives: the first is wishing to keep things simple, understood, dependable- having the game and world make sense. hand waving or making a rule on the spot shakes this person, and his certainty and confidence in the game. these people however work quite well with house rules, as long as they are discussed before hand, explained and decided upon. often before the campaign even start. your DM may be one of them. can't quite function, and afraid of creative, uncertain, untested creativity.

the second kind doesn't adhere to the rules because they need them to cope, but because they have a faith in the rules makers. "this is how the game was set, and this is how it should be!" these guys are quite rare, but also very very hard to budge. they like to "accept truths from above". resorting to creative rules and thinking subverts the "established order". again, your DM may be one of them. not fearing creativity because it is desruptive, but just seeing no place for it in the "good old system"

the third kind is usually players- the ones who makes the rules their tools to gain an advantage. find a loophole, an exploit, do ridiculous things, and then when confronted back it up "but it's in the rules!" different palyers have this aspect to different degrees, but often if exagerated, it can ruin fun so you deal with him/ her. either examine and check the rules very closely, making rulings, hosue rules and so on to "balance the system against that player", (an annoying process, and the start of an arms race against the player) or just sit him down to a serious "look, we like you, but either behave or don't come again" talk.

there are a few DMs of that sort, but they usually run very short games, since the players quickly leave these sadist of power. your DM doesn't sound like that.

i go on and on! sorry about that, but i thought identifying the type might help. some more "to the point" advice:

- have any of you DMed instead of him? i'd suggest it for a short while, while he is the player. have a fairly rules liberal, creativity encouraging, innovative creative ideas, fly-by-the-hood adventure or two. perhaps once he sees people like it, and that it's not that bad or game breaking (can you keep it not game breaking?) he might relent a bit.

- i assume you're trying 3.5 suggest o try one of the FATE system games. they are light on rules, and rely heavily on player creativity and inginuity, which are anchored in mechanical rules! this may be an interesting combination of things, and also help ease the DM to a new way of thought.

- think of your main issues, things you'd like to try out quite often that aren't covered in the rules, or that you saw come up in sessions quite often. talk to the DM about making house rules for those. come from a stand popint of not taking advantage, but allowing to work out a reasonable rule. ("reasonable" depends on your gaming style, and the maturity of the people involved). this may solve most issues, while letting the DM be "rules lawyery" not the best solution, but might work more easily than the other ideas.

hope this helped, good luck!

[Niceman]

On one hand, you can appreciate his side of it. The rules keep you going in the right direction and in between the ditches. It eliminated ambiguity and sets foundations for handling future similar situations.

On the other hand our group plays with basically only one hard and fast cardinal rule... Rule #9: Don't let good roleplaying get in the way of good roleplaying The rules are good and useful, otherwise they wouldn't have made them, but rules can't govern every situation, so they should also be regarded as guidelines. If the group is playing well and staying true to their characters and it's fun and furthering the adventure, then some leeway from time to time isn't a bad thing. The impossible feats and miraculous deeds are what bards sing about. "He shouldn't have been able to make that arrow-shot, but he did. I don't know how, but you should've been there...." Etc.

Perhaps talk to him in between games, when there's no pressure. You're not asking him to fudge or let you cheat or anything... just to allow for creativity.

If he's always the DM then you might have one in the group run a side game.. to 'give him a chance to play'. Then that person as DM can run the game in the style you're more wanting him to adopt.. give him a chance to let him see how it works. Of course as a rules lawyer he'll probably try to correct the DM, but they'll have the power to say "I know and you're right the rules say that, but that was a good idea they had, so I'm going to let it slide."

Don't know if those suggestions will help, but I wish you luck and I hope you all can find a happy and fun medium with which to play :)

[JaronK]

Hi, I've had a DM who is quite a rules lawyer for along time now.. My sibling, who is also in the party, agrees with me. The bard, the fighter (everyone hates him except the DM >:/), and the healer don't comment about it, but we like the DM as a person, but he seems to think that if it isn't in the rules, you can't do it. Any ideas?

Perhaps he wants a world with verisimilitude, and thus wants to keep things consistent?

I guess the first question is, in what way do you want him to change the rules? Are you yourself "storylawyering" which is to say using the story you want happening to justify things that don't make sense in the rules?

JaronK

[Fenryr]

Rule lawyer is a bit vague. At what extreme? You stop having fun? Or he halts the game in order to look for a rule in the book?

[dark.sun.druid]

- i assume you're trying 3.5 suggest o try one of the FATE system games. they are light on rules, and rely heavily on player creativity and inginuity, which are anchored in mechanical rules! this may be an interesting combination of things, and also help ease the DM to a new way of thought.

Or the PORTAL system!
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/portal-player-oriented-roleplaying--timing-action-lucidity/982117

[Chess435]

Rule #9: Don't let good roleplaying get in the way of good roleplaying

Out of curiosity, is there a specific list that this came from, or did you just pull the number 9 out of nowhere? (If it did come from a list, could you please link it so I could show my DM?)

[Safety Sword]

Out of curiosity, is there a specific list that this came from, or did you just pull the number 9 out of nowhere? (If it did come from a list, could you please link it so I could show my DM?)

If it's on the internet it must be true.

If you don't like the way your DM "DMs" you should find a new one.

Or, DM yourself and see what sort of DM you become when you players consistently try to bend the rules in the name of "roleplaying".

Rules are there to keep it consistent (as noted above by JaronK). That's not a bad thing!

[Saintheart]

i assume you're trying 3.5 suggest o try one of the FATE system games. they are light on rules, and rely heavily on player creativity and inginuity, which are anchored in mechanical rules! this may be an interesting combination of things, and also help ease the DM to a new way of thought.

For some reason, I read FATAL rather than FATE.

Although that might be just as good a suggestion! :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

[MukkTB]

You gotta explain a bit more what the DM is doing. Pull up the last time you had a problem and walk us through it.

Talking about rules beforehand and setting up house rules is generally the best way to go.

But when it comes down to it. You have to find a good DM, be a good DM, or learn to live with the DM you have. For the most part you aren't going to change their behavior. The best you can do is change your behavior and hope.

[Tzevash]

Next time you guys hang out, every time that he asks for something or he needs a favor, roll a D20 and act accordingly.

:smallbiggrin:

However. If his behaviour destroys the enjoyment, make him a little reminder: a DM with no players is just a poor juy sitting on a pile of manuals.

[Endarire]

To me, a GM who adheres strictly to the rules is good, so long as he remains consistent!

If he does, then you can determine what results you'll get with whatever inputs you give.

What do you expect of this game?

[137beth]

You could also point him to relevant passages in the PHB and DMG which say that creativity should be rewarded. Then you can say "look! The rules say you should bend the rules!"

Or just talk to him outside of a session. That's usually the best approach.

[Tyndmyr]

not sure i can help, but here are some thoughts:

- being a rules lawyer often stems from one of motives: the first is wishing to keep things simple, understood, dependable- having the game and world make sense. hand waving or making a rule on the spot shakes this person, and his certainty and confidence in the game. these people however work quite well with house rules, as long as they are discussed before hand, explained and decided upon. often before the campaign even start. your DM may be one of them. can't quite function, and afraid of creative, uncertain, untested creativity.

I would not describe a dislike of "untested creativity" as "can't quite function". In fact, I would describe that as a GOOD quality of a DM. Skepticism about your players latest homebrew or idea is healthy, and review before allowing it for play is a really solid idea.

What exactly is this "rules lawyering" behavior? I find it difficult to judge based on such an open phrase. Is he bogging the game down with lots and lots of rule lookups? Is he not allowing homebrew/illegal actions? Is he treating the rules differently for NPCs than for you?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Eh, specific examples might seem like a rant. I might suggest instituting some houserules which allow/encourage a broader spectrum of "cinematic" actions. I'm in a PbP here which uses Raising the Stakes (http://esix.pbworks.com/f/RaisingtheStakes.pdf). Your DM might feel more comfortable introducing player creativity in a way he can control. I for one wouldn't want rule of cool dominating a game of D&D - it just devolves into a game of "who can come up with the most ridiculous action" and is best saved for a rules light comedy one shot. The fact that each "creative" action must be balanced by an appropriate risk makes failure both possible (a plus) and interesting (double plus).

[Mockingbird]

Although, I can see why he doesn't want the dragon-disciple warmage to make a deal to coexist with a shadow demon trying to possess him.. :smalltongue: