Ranged Swordsage?

[Ninja_Grand]

Is is possable to make a bow useing swordsage or warblade etc, with out hombrew disaplins?
I do not know much about TOB but frome what I read, it cant work.

any thougts?

(D)

[deuxhero]

Nope.avi. DM may allow you to if asked.

[HunterOfJello]

A one or two level dip could be useful to gain a bunch of boosts and stances. However, as far as using ToB to increase damage goes, it doesn't really mesh well with ranged attacks outside of the Bloodstorm Blade PrC.

[deuxhero]

Oh, normally this would be obvious, but you said you aren't very familiar with the book: Swordsage has access to Desert Wind, which has some ranged blasts (All fire based though)

[MeeposFire]

There are numerous boosts, counters, and stances that work with ranged weapons such as the mongoose line and time stands still. Just look to see if anything says melee attack and if it doesn't you are good. Strikes are the hardest to find and you may wish to go warblade as swordmage may be hard to fill without using many strikes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is is possaible to make a bow useing swordsage or warblade etc, without homebrew disaciplins?
I do not know much about TOB but froma what I read, it can't work.

any thoughts?

(D)

FTFY.

I think it can. There are maneuvers and (a lot of) stances that don't specify melee weapons. Most of the boosts and counters are the one's that work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Umm Swordsages arent even proficient in ranged weapons (except weapons that can be thrown)

[MeeposFire]

Umm Swordsages arent even proficient in ranged weapons (except weapons that can be thrown)

They are proficient with simple ranged but that is a minor problem anyway as you could spend a feat, play an elf, take a level in something like crusader, or something similar.

[Talya]

Umm Swordsages arent even proficient in ranged weapons (except weapons that can be thrown)

Weapon proficiency is available as a feat.
If you are playing one of the many varieties of elves, you're already proficient, and don't need the feat.
Or, a two level dip in ranger, fighter, etc. can't hurt.


I had a build once involving a Goliath Ranger/Swordsage with Zen Archery, using a large sized composite greatbow (2d8+5 before enchantments). It was going to be fairly effective even before I found Fax Celestis "Falling Star" Martial Discipline.

[Big Fau]

I actually think the Swordsage has access to all of the styles that have maneuvers compatible with Ranged Attacks (Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Desert Wind).


I'm not sure though, since I can't find the list of maneuvers that are ranged-compatible.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not sure though, since I can't find the list of maneuvers that are ranged-compatible.

Any utility maneuver (Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap, I'm looking at you), and most boosts and counters (Mind over Body, Dancing/Raging Mongoose).

Iron Heart has some good counters and boosts though.

[DogbertLinc]

I can speak from experience that at least a Warblade can work with this. Especially if you go with the "you're your own ally" route with WHite Raven Tactics.

Even if not, you still have a ton of supporting abilities for your archer (saves replacing ones, Wall of Blades+Elvencraft bow, take a feat for Shadow Hand Teleport maneuver (it's just fun)).

Bonebow is your friend (adjusts to any str score) and is the Energy Bow. Barbarian dip for WHirling Frenzy is neat too.

Energy Bow+Woodland Archer+WRT will make you somewhat respectable.

[Big Fau]

Any utility maneuver (Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap, I'm looking at you), and most boosts and counters (Mind over Body, Dancing/Raging Mongoose).

Iron Heart has some good counters and boosts though.

Well, they also have Time Stands Still. That really helps out.

[Ninja_Grand]

Any utility maneuver (Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap, I'm looking at you), and most boosts and counters (Mind over Body, Dancing/Raging Mongoose).

Iron Heart has some good counters and boosts though.


I can speak from experience that at least a Warblade can work with this. Especially if you go with the "you're your own ally" route with WHite Raven Tactics.

Even if not, you still have a ton of supporting abilities for your archer (saves replacing ones, Wall of Blades+Elvencraft bow, take a feat for Shadow Hand Teleport maneuver (it's just fun)).

Bonebow is your friend (adjusts to any str score) and is the Energy Bow. Barbarian dip for WHirling Frenzy is neat too.

Energy Bow+Woodland Archer+WRT will make you somewhat respectable.


Weapon proficiency is available as a feat.
If you are playing one of the many varieties of elves, you're already proficient, and don't need the feat.
Or, a two level dip in ranger, fighter, etc. can't hurt.


I had a build once involving a Goliath Ranger/Swordsage with Zen Archery, using a large sized composite greatbow (2d8+5 before enchantments). It was going to be fairly effective even before I found Fax Celestis "Falling Star" Martial Discipline.

All for these are great Ideas. Thankes for helping me out. GITP fourms rock!

(S)

[drakir_nosslin]

Is is possaible to make a bow useing swordsage or warblade etc, without homebrew disaciplines?
I do not know much about TOB but frome what I read, it can't work.

any thoughts?

(D)FTFY.

I think it can. There are maneuvers and (a lot of) stances that don't specify melee weapons. Most of the boosts and counters are the one's that work.
FTFY :smallwink:

[Darrin]

From an older "Swordsage Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184495)" thread:

Here's some excerpts from a "ranged ToB" project I was working on and haven't quite finished yet:

Maneuvers that can be used with Ranged Attacks


Desert Wind:
Blistering Flourish 1 (dazzles 30' burst)
Distracting Ember 1 (flank ally)
Flame's Blessing 1 [stance] (fire resistance)
Wind Stride 1 (+10' speed)
Fire Riposte 2 (counter)
Hatchling's Flame 2 (30' cone of fire)
Fan the Flames 3 (ranged touch attack)
Holocaust Cloak 3 [stance]
Zephyr Dance 3 (counter)
Firesnake 4
Dragon's Flame 5 (30' cone of fire)
Leaping Flame 5 (counter)
Ring of Fire 6 (area effect)
Rising Phoenix 8 [stance]
Wyrm's Flame 8 (30' cone of fire)
Inferno Blast 9 (60' burst)

Devoted Spirit:
Shield Block 2 (counter)
Defensive Rebuke 3 (boost, attack you or provoke AoO)
Aura of Chaos 6 [stance]
Aura of Perfect Order 6 [stance]
Shield Counter 7 (counter)

Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind 1 (counter, Will save)
Stance of Clarity 1 [stance]
Action Before Thought 2 (counter, Ref save)
Mind Over Body 3 (counter, Fort save)
Pearl of Black Doubt 3 [stance]
Hearing the Air 5 [stance]
Moment of Alacrity 6 (boost, +20 init)
Quicksilver Motion 7 (boost)
Diamond Defense 8 (counter, any save)
Stance of Alacrity 8 [stance]
Time Stands Still 9

Iron Heart:
Absolute Steel 3 [stance] (+10' speed)
Iron Heart Surge 3
Iron Heart Focus 5 (counter)
Iron Heart Endurance 6 (boost)
Lightning Throw 8 (30' line)

Setting Sun:
Counter Charge 1 (counter)
Step of the Wind 1 [stance]
Baffling Defense 2 (counter)
Feigned Opening 3 (counter)
Giant Killing Style 3 [stance] (+2 attack, +4 damage vs larger foes)
Shifting Defense 5 [stance]
Scorpion Parry 6 (counter)
Ghostly Defense 8 [stance]

Shadow Hand:
Child of Shadow 1 [stance] (concealment)
Cloak of Deception 2 (invisibility)
Shadow Jaunt 2
Assassin's Stance 3 [stance]
Dance of the Spider 3 [stance]
Shadow Garrote 3 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Stride 5
Step of the Dancing Moth 5 [stance]
Shadow Noose 6 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Blink 7
Balance on the Sky 8 [stance] (air walk)
One With Shadow 8 (boost, incorporeal)

Stone Dragon:
Stonefoot Stance 1 [stance]
Roots of the Mountain 3 [stance] (+10 vs bull rush, DR 2/-)
Giant's Stance 5 [stance] (weapon one size larger)
Earthquake Strike 8 (20' burst)

Tiger Claw:
Blood in the Water 1 [stance]
Hunter's Sense 1 [stance]
Sudden Leap 1 (boost)
Fountain of Blood 4 (counter)
Dancing Mongoose 5 (boost)
Raging Mongoose 8 (boost)

White Raven:
Bolstering Voice 1 [stance]
Leading the Charge 1 [stance]
Lion's Roar 3 (boost)
Tactics of the Wolf 3 [stance]
White Raven Tactics 3
Press the Advantage 5 [stance]
Order Forged From Chaos 6 (move action)
Swarm Tactics 8 [stance]


Here's a sample maneuver progression for a ranged-based Swordsage 20:


Swordsage 1: Blistering Flourish, Distracting Ember, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Hunter's Sense [stance], Sudden Leap
Swordsage 2: Flame's Blessing [stance], Mighty Throw
Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception
Swordsage 4: Shadow Jaunt, Baffling Defense (replacing Mighty Throw)
Swordsage 5: Shadow Garrote, Giant Killing Style [stance]
Swordsage 6: Fan the Flames, Mind Over Body (replacing Blistering Flourish)
Swordsage 7: Fountain of Blood
Swordsage 8: Firesnake, Zephyr Dance (replacing Distracting Ember)
Swordsage 9: Dancing Mongoose, Shifting Defense [stance]
Swordsage 10: Dragon's Flame, Shadow Stride (replacing Shadow Jaunt)
Swordsage 11: Shadow Noose
Swordsage 12: Scorpion Parry, Moment of Alacrity (replacing Dragon's Flame)
Swordsage 13: Quicksilver Motion
Swordsage 14: Shadow Blink, Hearing the Air [stance], Ring of Fire (replacing Firesnake),
Swordsage 15: Raging Mongoose, Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity
Swordsage 16: One With Shadow, Diamond Defense (replacing Ring of Fire)
Swordsage 17: Time Stands Still
Swordsage 18: Inferno Blast, Fool's Strike (replacing Wind Stride)
Swordsage 19: Mountain Tombstone Strike
Swordsage 20: Feral Death Blow, Balance on the Sky [stance], Tornado Throw (replacing Counter Charge)


Ruby Knight Windicator build

1) Cloistered Cleric 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot, Human: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
2) Swordsage 1. IL 1.5.
3) Swordsage 2. IL 2.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Swordsage 3. IL 3.5.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 5.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
7) RKV2. IL 6.0.
8) RKV3. IL 7.0.
9) RKV4. IL 8.0. Feat: Manyshot.
10) RKV5. IL 9.0.
11) Swordsage 4. IL 10.0. Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose
12) RKV6. IL 11.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
13) RKV7. IL 12.0.
14) RKV8. IL 13.0. Caster Level 7, Divine Power.
15) RKV9. IL 14.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) RKV10. IL15.0. Caster Level 9.
17) Swordsage 5. IL 16.0. Raging Mongoose, Stance: ???
18) Swordsage 6. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Swordsage 7. IL 18.0.
20) Swordsage 8. IL 19.0.


Races for Ranged Swordsages:

Aasimar (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Better suited to Crusader or Paladin/RKV builds, but as outsiders they are proficient with all martial weapons, including ranged. The Wis bonus is also nice. Level Adjustment is a little more forgiving in melee builds than for spellcasters, but there are two options to play an Aasimar with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Planetouched version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. This means the non-outsider Aasimar loses its proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can get that back along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at 1st level.

The second option is a Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races that breaks the Aasimar down into a weaker version and one racial class level that can be taken later to restore the Aasimar's full racial abilities. This option still retains the Outsider type, +2 Cha, and is still proficient with all martial weapons (including ranged). You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Wis, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedElementalVariants.html#air-goblins)). No ranged proficiencies and small size, but great Dex bonus with no Level Adjustment (+4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con). You can shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). Also, this is one of the few LA +0 Dragonborn of Bahumat options (flying + ranged attacks = Death From Above) that still leaves you with a Dex bonus, although you lose the Breathless (Ex) racial ability.

Azurin (Magic of Incarnum). Close enough to human that it gets a bonus feat, but instead of extra skill points it starts with 1 point of essentia. Incarnum can be tough to fit into a ToB build because there isn't a lot of room to multiclass without losing 9th level maneuvers, and with ranged builds there aren't any feats to spare on Shape Soulmeld. However, there are a few soulmelds that work well for ranged attacks: Incarnate Avatar (Chaos, +1/essentia insight bonus on ranged attacks), Lucky Dice (+1 luck bonus on attacks and damage), and Sighting Gloves (+1 insight bonus on damage, +1/essentia). There are also a few soulmelds that offer ranged attacks (Dissolving Spittle, Frost Helm, Manticore Belt, Yrthak Mask). If you can squeeze in a dip into Incarnate or a Shape Soulmeld feat, then Azurin gives you an extra point of essentia. However, you may run into multiclass problems, since Azurin's favored class is Soulborn (*ugh*).

Elf (various). Like Skittles, you've got a rainbow of flavors here, but this is another way to get proficiency with bows for a Swordsage. The Dex bonus is of course great for ranged builds, but the Con penalty can be troubling if you plan on using a lot of Concentration checks for Diamond Mind maneuvers. The best subrace for Swordsages is Snow Elf (Frostburn, +2 Dex, -2 Cha). Wood Elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int) is also nice if you need to dip Ranger and want to avoid XP penalties for multiclassing. You can also shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). If you're dipping into Cloistered Cleric for the Knowledge devotion, there are also two elven deities with the Elf domain (Point Blank Shot) and the War domain (Martial Weapon Proficiency/Weapon Focus: Longbow): Solonor Thelandira (generic elf pantheon) and Shevarash (FR-specific). If you're looking for Elf Domain + Travel Devotion, then Sehanine Moonbow is also a good pick.

Drow (MM, PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). The +2 LA isn't worth it, but the Lesser version in the Player's Guide to Faerun is very similar to the standard elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con) if you want the whole "I am all angst and emo!" flavor. They are proficient with the hand crossbow instead of all bows, but that's at least something to start with. This also works very nicely with the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (Drow of the Underdark p. 50, which is a nice two-for-one deal: Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow). The Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) breaks down the Drow into some basic racial abilities and two racial class levels (basically nerfing their Spell Resistance and more powerful SLAs). However, they start with +2 Dex, +2 Int, and -2 Con. They are also still proficient with the hand crossbow. And, uh... yeah... I'm sure there's sections of the Underdark in the Arctic... (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha).

Hadozee (Stormwrack). On the upside, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, and gets a bonus feat like humans... on the downside, you're stuck with the much-reviled Dodge, although this is one of the prereq feats for Master of Nine if you're going that route later.

Halfling, Strongheart (FRCS). Like humans, the bonus feat is invaluable. The Dex bonus, +1 size bonus, and +1 thrown weapon bonus ("He's got a pebble! Run!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)) are all nice perks, but the smaller size means your damage goes down a step, which for a ranged build can be a significant disadvantage. However, a small-sized Martial Adept can take advantage of several stances that work against larger opponents, such as Stonefoot Stance (Stone Dragon 1), Giant Killing Style (Setting Sun 3), and Giant's Stance (Stone Dragon 5).

Human (PHB). You're going to be starved for feats, so every feat you can get your hands on is going to be invaluable. Human is also your best pick for multiclassing, since there aren't any races with Martial Adept classes as their favored class. Silverbrow Humans (Dragon Magic p. 6) get a bonus feat and the dragonblood subtype, but I can't recall if that would be all that useful for a Swordsage.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). If you want to play an outsider without Level Adjustment but don't have access to Lesser Planetouched races or the Savage Progression articles, then go with a Neraph. As a native Outsider, neraphim gain proficiency with all martial weapons, including ranged. The +2 natural armor bonus, +5 racial bonus on jump checks, and Neraph Camouflage/Charge (target loses Dex bonus on first thrown attack or charge) are also nice perks for a Swordsage build.

Raptoran (Races of the Wild). Actually a pretty poor choice for a Swordsage, but the Raptoran eventually does get flight (a game-changing ability for any ranged build), and treats the footbow as a martial weapon... which stinks for a Swordsage, since they aren't proficient with ranged martial weapons. To pick up all ranged martial weapons, you'll need to dip something like Fighter, Ranger, or Crusader. A footbow isn't that much different from a composite longbow, except if you draw with both hands you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage.

Tiefling (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Decent pick for a Swordsage if you can live without the Human/Azurin/Strongheart bonus feat (the Int bonus makes this a more ideal pick for Warblades). Like the Aasimar, there are two options for playing a Tiefling with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Tiefling version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. You also lose proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can regain this along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at first level.

Also like the Aasimar, the Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races keeps the Outsider type but breaks down the Tiefling into a weaker version (+2 Dex, -2 Cha) with one racial class level. You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Int, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).


Weapons/Magic Items/Enhancements for ranged combat:

Bone Bow (250 GP, Frostburn). Mechanically this functions the same as a Composite Greatbow, but it accommodates any Strength bonus without having to pay for each +1. If you use a lot of spells/powers/effects that changes your Strength score (bull's strength, rage, enlarge person, expansion, etc.), then this could be well worth spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It also offers the option to treat it as a martial weapon, but treating it as a non-proficient exotic weapon is actually better: you still take a -4 penalty, but you're not limited to one attack as a full-round action.

Elvencraft Bow (+300 GP, Races of the Wild). There are a variety of combination bow/melee weapons out there, but this is the simplest and cheapest. 300 GP and you can treat your bow as a club or quarterstaff even if you're still using it as a bow. If you're looking for something fancier, the MIC features three types of Swordbows (free action to switch), a Bowstaff (swift action to switch), and a Bladed Crossbow (no action to switch).

Footbow (150 GP + 100 GP/Str bonus, Races of the Wild). Pretty much identical to a non-exotic composite longbow. However, if you can fly and can draw it back with both hands, you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage. If you're a raptoran crusader, you'll want to pick up one of these, otherwise stick with a composite longbow.

Greatbow, Composite (200 GP + 200 GP/Str bonus, Complete Warrior). I think the Bone Bow is a better choice (cheaper, auto-adjusts to your Str bonus), but CWar is a more popular sourcebook. The 1 point of damage increase over a regular composite longbow may not seem like it would be worth a feat, but for a ranged build, you need as much extra damage as you can get your hands on.

Hank's Energy Bow (22600 GP, Animated Series Handbook or available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)). One of the few ways you can get something similar to Power Attack on a ranged weapon (but unfortunately does not offer the same damage multipliers). On top of that, it's an extremely versatile weapon that does not require any ammo, does an impressive 2d6 force damage, can use regular arrows, and can accommodate any Strength bonus.

Precise Shot (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 40). No need to take Precise Shot as a feat.

Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage p. 133) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC p. 194). Provides the Far Shot feat.

Splitting (+3 enhancement, Champions of Ruin p. 42). I can haz moar arrowz.

Ranged shield (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 13). Say it with me: "Freedom Prevails!"

Pitspawned template (+1000 GP, DMGII). +2 untyped bonus to confirm criticals.

Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (10000 GP, PGtF p. 123). Any held melee weapon gains the Throwing and Returning property.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139). Increase your weapon damage up one size category without mucking around with Powerful Build or Monkey Grip.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC p. 206). Adds the shock property to all your attacks, including ranged. Although somewhat expensive, in most cases it's probably cheaper to buy these bracers than trying to add another +1 property to an existing magic weapon. The biggest drawback is it takes a swift action to activate, and most ToB builds are going to need their swift actions for something else.

Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser (3000 GP, MIC p. 64). Another great way to add +1d6 energy damage to your ranged attacks without spending a lot of gold. I recommend the Acid Assault, since fire, cold, and sonic damage can be added with spells, and electricity can be added with Bracers of Lightning.

Quiver of Energy (15000 GP, MIC p. 172). Adds 1d6 acid/cold/electricity/fire damage to 20 arrows.


Spells to add more energy damage to ranged attacks:

Burning Sword (Spell Compendium p. 41, Sor/Wis 2). Flaming burst weapon 1 min/level.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn p. 95, Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 frost damage 1 round/level.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium p. 195, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 sonic damage 1 min/level.

Energy Surge, Lesser (PHBII p. 112, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action (Wand Chamber! +100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34), add +1d6 energy damage (acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic) for 1 round.

[Ninja_Grand]

From an older "Swordsage Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184495)" thread:

Here's some excerpts from a "ranged ToB" project I was working on and haven't quite finished yet:

Maneuvers that can be used with Ranged Attacks


Desert Wind:
Blistering Flourish 1 (dazzles 30' burst)
Distracting Ember 1 (flank ally)
Flame's Blessing 1 [stance] (fire resistance)
Wind Stride 1 (+10' speed)
Fire Riposte 2 (counter)
Hatchling's Flame 2 (30' cone of fire)
Fan the Flames 3 (ranged touch attack)
Holocaust Cloak 3 [stance]
Zephyr Dance 3 (counter)
Firesnake 4
Dragon's Flame 5 (30' cone of fire)
Leaping Flame 5 (counter)
Ring of Fire 6 (area effect)
Rising Phoenix 8 [stance]
Wyrm's Flame 8 (30' cone of fire)
Inferno Blast 9 (60' burst)

Devoted Spirit:
Shield Block 2 (counter)
Defensive Rebuke 3 (boost, attack you or provoke AoO)
Aura of Chaos 6 [stance]
Aura of Perfect Order 6 [stance]
Shield Counter 7 (counter)

Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Mind 1 (counter, Will save)
Stance of Clarity 1 [stance]
Action Before Thought 2 (counter, Ref save)
Mind Over Body 3 (counter, Fort save)
Pearl of Black Doubt 3 [stance]
Hearing the Air 5 [stance]
Moment of Alacrity 6 (boost, +20 init)
Quicksilver Motion 7 (boost)
Diamond Defense 8 (counter, any save)
Stance of Alacrity 8 [stance]
Time Stands Still 9

Iron Heart:
Absolute Steel 3 [stance] (+10' speed)
Iron Heart Surge 3
Iron Heart Focus 5 (counter)
Iron Heart Endurance 6 (boost)
Lightning Throw 8 (30' line)

Setting Sun:
Counter Charge 1 (counter)
Step of the Wind 1 [stance]
Baffling Defense 2 (counter)
Feigned Opening 3 (counter)
Giant Killing Style 3 [stance] (+2 attack, +4 damage vs larger foes)
Shifting Defense 5 [stance]
Scorpion Parry 6 (counter)
Ghostly Defense 8 [stance]

Shadow Hand:
Child of Shadow 1 [stance] (concealment)
Cloak of Deception 2 (invisibility)
Shadow Jaunt 2
Assassin's Stance 3 [stance]
Dance of the Spider 3 [stance]
Shadow Garrote 3 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Stride 5
Step of the Dancing Moth 5 [stance]
Shadow Noose 6 (ranged touch attack)
Shadow Blink 7
Balance on the Sky 8 [stance] (air walk)
One With Shadow 8 (boost, incorporeal)

Stone Dragon:
Stonefoot Stance 1 [stance]
Roots of the Mountain 3 [stance] (+10 vs bull rush, DR 2/-)
Giant's Stance 5 [stance] (weapon one size larger)
Earthquake Strike 8 (20' burst)

Tiger Claw:
Blood in the Water 1 [stance]
Hunter's Sense 1 [stance]
Sudden Leap 1 (boost)
Fountain of Blood 4 (counter)
Dancing Mongoose 5 (boost)
Raging Mongoose 8 (boost)

White Raven:
Bolstering Voice 1 [stance]
Leading the Charge 1 [stance]
Lion's Roar 3 (boost)
Tactics of the Wolf 3 [stance]
White Raven Tactics 3
Press the Advantage 5 [stance]
Order Forged From Chaos 6 (move action)
Swarm Tactics 8 [stance]


Here's a sample maneuver progression for a ranged-based Swordsage 20:


Swordsage 1: Blistering Flourish, Distracting Ember, Wind Stride, Moment of Perfect Mind, Counter Charge, Hunter's Sense [stance], Sudden Leap
Swordsage 2: Flame's Blessing [stance], Mighty Throw
Swordsage 3: Cloak of Deception
Swordsage 4: Shadow Jaunt, Baffling Defense (replacing Mighty Throw)
Swordsage 5: Shadow Garrote, Giant Killing Style [stance]
Swordsage 6: Fan the Flames, Mind Over Body (replacing Blistering Flourish)
Swordsage 7: Fountain of Blood
Swordsage 8: Firesnake, Zephyr Dance (replacing Distracting Ember)
Swordsage 9: Dancing Mongoose, Shifting Defense [stance]
Swordsage 10: Dragon's Flame, Shadow Stride (replacing Shadow Jaunt)
Swordsage 11: Shadow Noose
Swordsage 12: Scorpion Parry, Moment of Alacrity (replacing Dragon's Flame)
Swordsage 13: Quicksilver Motion
Swordsage 14: Shadow Blink, Hearing the Air [stance], Ring of Fire (replacing Firesnake),
Swordsage 15: Raging Mongoose, Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity
Swordsage 16: One With Shadow, Diamond Defense (replacing Ring of Fire)
Swordsage 17: Time Stands Still
Swordsage 18: Inferno Blast, Fool's Strike (replacing Wind Stride)
Swordsage 19: Mountain Tombstone Strike
Swordsage 20: Feral Death Blow, Balance on the Sky [stance], Tornado Throw (replacing Counter Charge)


Ruby Knight Windicator build

1) Cloistered Cleric 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot, Human: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion
2) Swordsage 1. IL 1.5.
3) Swordsage 2. IL 2.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Swordsage 3. IL 3.5.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 5.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
7) RKV2. IL 6.0.
8) RKV3. IL 7.0.
9) RKV4. IL 8.0. Feat: Manyshot.
10) RKV5. IL 9.0.
11) Swordsage 4. IL 10.0. Maneuver: Dancing Mongoose
12) RKV6. IL 11.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
13) RKV7. IL 12.0.
14) RKV8. IL 13.0. Caster Level 7, Divine Power.
15) RKV9. IL 14.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) RKV10. IL15.0. Caster Level 9.
17) Swordsage 5. IL 16.0. Raging Mongoose, Stance: ???
18) Swordsage 6. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Swordsage 7. IL 18.0.
20) Swordsage 8. IL 19.0.


Races for Ranged Swordsages:

Aasimar (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Better suited to Crusader or Paladin/RKV builds, but as outsiders they are proficient with all martial weapons, including ranged. The Wis bonus is also nice. Level Adjustment is a little more forgiving in melee builds than for spellcasters, but there are two options to play an Aasimar with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Planetouched version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Wis, +2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. This means the non-outsider Aasimar loses its proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can get that back along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at 1st level.

The second option is a Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races that breaks the Aasimar down into a weaker version and one racial class level that can be taken later to restore the Aasimar's full racial abilities. This option still retains the Outsider type, +2 Cha, and is still proficient with all martial weapons (including ranged). You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Wis, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).

Air Goblin (Unearthed Arcana (http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedElementalVariants.html#air-goblins)). No ranged proficiencies and small size, but great Dex bonus with no Level Adjustment (+4 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con). You can shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). Also, this is one of the few LA +0 Dragonborn of Bahumat options (flying + ranged attacks = Death From Above) that still leaves you with a Dex bonus, although you lose the Breathless (Ex) racial ability.

Azurin (Magic of Incarnum). Close enough to human that it gets a bonus feat, but instead of extra skill points it starts with 1 point of essentia. Incarnum can be tough to fit into a ToB build because there isn't a lot of room to multiclass without losing 9th level maneuvers, and with ranged builds there aren't any feats to spare on Shape Soulmeld. However, there are a few soulmelds that work well for ranged attacks: Incarnate Avatar (Chaos, +1/essentia insight bonus on ranged attacks), Lucky Dice (+1 luck bonus on attacks and damage), and Sighting Gloves (+1 insight bonus on damage, +1/essentia). There are also a few soulmelds that offer ranged attacks (Dissolving Spittle, Frost Helm, Manticore Belt, Yrthak Mask). If you can squeeze in a dip into Incarnate or a Shape Soulmeld feat, then Azurin gives you an extra point of essentia. However, you may run into multiclass problems, since Azurin's favored class is Soulborn (*ugh*).

Elf (various). Like Skittles, you've got a rainbow of flavors here, but this is another way to get proficiency with bows for a Swordsage. The Dex bonus is of course great for ranged builds, but the Con penalty can be troubling if you plan on using a lot of Concentration checks for Diamond Mind maneuvers. The best subrace for Swordsages is Snow Elf (Frostburn, +2 Dex, -2 Cha). Wood Elf (+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int) is also nice if you need to dip Ranger and want to avoid XP penalties for multiclassing. You can also shift the Con penalty to Cha with the Arctic racial template (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha). If you're dipping into Cloistered Cleric for the Knowledge devotion, there are also two elven deities with the Elf domain (Point Blank Shot) and the War domain (Martial Weapon Proficiency/Weapon Focus: Longbow): Solonor Thelandira (generic elf pantheon) and Shevarash (FR-specific). If you're looking for Elf Domain + Travel Devotion, then Sehanine Moonbow is also a good pick.

Drow (MM, PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). The +2 LA isn't worth it, but the Lesser version in the Player's Guide to Faerun is very similar to the standard elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con) if you want the whole "I am all angst and emo!" flavor. They are proficient with the hand crossbow instead of all bows, but that's at least something to start with. This also works very nicely with the Hand Crossbow Focus feat (Drow of the Underdark p. 50, which is a nice two-for-one deal: Rapid Reload and Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow). The Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) breaks down the Drow into some basic racial abilities and two racial class levels (basically nerfing their Spell Resistance and more powerful SLAs). However, they start with +2 Dex, +2 Int, and -2 Con. They are also still proficient with the hand crossbow. And, uh... yeah... I'm sure there's sections of the Underdark in the Arctic... (Dragon #306, +2 Con, -2 Cha).

Hadozee (Stormwrack). On the upside, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, and gets a bonus feat like humans... on the downside, you're stuck with the much-reviled Dodge, although this is one of the prereq feats for Master of Nine if you're going that route later.

Halfling, Strongheart (FRCS). Like humans, the bonus feat is invaluable. The Dex bonus, +1 size bonus, and +1 thrown weapon bonus ("He's got a pebble! Run!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html)) are all nice perks, but the smaller size means your damage goes down a step, which for a ranged build can be a significant disadvantage. However, a small-sized Martial Adept can take advantage of several stances that work against larger opponents, such as Stonefoot Stance (Stone Dragon 1), Giant Killing Style (Setting Sun 3), and Giant's Stance (Stone Dragon 5).

Human (PHB). You're going to be starved for feats, so every feat you can get your hands on is going to be invaluable. Human is also your best pick for multiclassing, since there aren't any races with Martial Adept classes as their favored class. Silverbrow Humans (Dragon Magic p. 6) get a bonus feat and the dragonblood subtype, but I can't recall if that would be all that useful for a Swordsage.

Neraph (Planar Handbook). If you want to play an outsider without Level Adjustment but don't have access to Lesser Planetouched races or the Savage Progression articles, then go with a Neraph. As a native Outsider, neraphim gain proficiency with all martial weapons, including ranged. The +2 natural armor bonus, +5 racial bonus on jump checks, and Neraph Camouflage/Charge (target loses Dex bonus on first thrown attack or charge) are also nice perks for a Swordsage build.

Raptoran (Races of the Wild). Actually a pretty poor choice for a Swordsage, but the Raptoran eventually does get flight (a game-changing ability for any ranged build), and treats the footbow as a martial weapon... which stinks for a Swordsage, since they aren't proficient with ranged martial weapons. To pick up all ranged martial weapons, you'll need to dip something like Fighter, Ranger, or Crusader. A footbow isn't that much different from a composite longbow, except if you draw with both hands you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage.

Tiefling (MM, FRCS/PGtF, Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)). Decent pick for a Swordsage if you can live without the Human/Azurin/Strongheart bonus feat (the Int bonus makes this a more ideal pick for Warblades). Like the Aasimar, there are two options for playing a Tiefling with no Level Adjustment. First, the Player's Guide to Faerun has a Lesser Tiefling version with the same ability score adjustments (+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha) but changes the Outsider type to Humanoid with an Extraplanar subtype. You also lose proficiency with all martial weapons, but you can regain this along with the Outsider type by taking the Otherworldly feat at first level.

Also like the Aasimar, the Savage Progression article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) on Level-Adjusted Races keeps the Outsider type but breaks down the Tiefling into a weaker version (+2 Dex, -2 Cha) with one racial class level. You can take the racial class level sometime later or never take it at all, but if you wanted to, you'd get the rest of your racial abilities (+2 Int, but no BAB, hit points, skill points, or better saves for that level).


Weapons/Magic Items/Enhancements for ranged combat:

Bone Bow (250 GP, Frostburn). Mechanically this functions the same as a Composite Greatbow, but it accommodates any Strength bonus without having to pay for each +1. If you use a lot of spells/powers/effects that changes your Strength score (bull's strength, rage, enlarge person, expansion, etc.), then this could be well worth spending a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It also offers the option to treat it as a martial weapon, but treating it as a non-proficient exotic weapon is actually better: you still take a -4 penalty, but you're not limited to one attack as a full-round action.

Elvencraft Bow (+300 GP, Races of the Wild). There are a variety of combination bow/melee weapons out there, but this is the simplest and cheapest. 300 GP and you can treat your bow as a club or quarterstaff even if you're still using it as a bow. If you're looking for something fancier, the MIC features three types of Swordbows (free action to switch), a Bowstaff (swift action to switch), and a Bladed Crossbow (no action to switch).

Footbow (150 GP + 100 GP/Str bonus, Races of the Wild). Pretty much identical to a non-exotic composite longbow. However, if you can fly and can draw it back with both hands, you can get 1.5 times your Strength bonus on damage. If you're a raptoran crusader, you'll want to pick up one of these, otherwise stick with a composite longbow.

Greatbow, Composite (200 GP + 200 GP/Str bonus, Complete Warrior). I think the Bone Bow is a better choice (cheaper, auto-adjusts to your Str bonus), but CWar is a more popular sourcebook. The 1 point of damage increase over a regular composite longbow may not seem like it would be worth a feat, but for a ranged build, you need as much extra damage as you can get your hands on.

Hank's Energy Bow (22600 GP, Animated Series Handbook or available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)). One of the few ways you can get something similar to Power Attack on a ranged weapon (but unfortunately does not offer the same damage multipliers). On top of that, it's an extremely versatile weapon that does not require any ammo, does an impressive 2d6 force damage, can use regular arrows, and can accommodate any Strength bonus.

Precise Shot (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 40). No need to take Precise Shot as a feat.

Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage p. 133) or Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC p. 194). Provides the Far Shot feat.

Splitting (+3 enhancement, Champions of Ruin p. 42). I can haz moar arrowz.

Ranged shield (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 13). Say it with me: "Freedom Prevails!"

Pitspawned template (+1000 GP, DMGII). +2 untyped bonus to confirm criticals.

Glove of Taarnahm the Vigilant (10000 GP, PGtF p. 123). Any held melee weapon gains the Throwing and Returning property.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139). Increase your weapon damage up one size category without mucking around with Powerful Build or Monkey Grip.

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC p. 206). Adds the shock property to all your attacks, including ranged. Although somewhat expensive, in most cases it's probably cheaper to buy these bracers than trying to add another +1 property to an existing magic weapon. The biggest drawback is it takes a swift action to activate, and most ToB builds are going to need their swift actions for something else.

Crystal of Energy Assault, Lesser (3000 GP, MIC p. 64). Another great way to add +1d6 energy damage to your ranged attacks without spending a lot of gold. I recommend the Acid Assault, since fire, cold, and sonic damage can be added with spells, and electricity can be added with Bracers of Lightning.

Quiver of Energy (15000 GP, MIC p. 172). Adds 1d6 acid/cold/electricity/fire damage to 20 arrows.


Spells to add more energy damage to ranged attacks:

Burning Sword (Spell Compendium p. 41, Sor/Wis 2). Flaming burst weapon 1 min/level.

Frost Weapon (Frostburn p. 95, Clr/Dru/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 frost damage 1 round/level.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium p. 195, Brd/Sor/Wiz 2). +1d6 sonic damage 1 min/level.

Energy Surge, Lesser (PHBII p. 112, Sor/Wiz 2). Swift action (Wand Chamber! +100 GP, Dungeonscape p. 34), add +1d6 energy damage (acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic) for 1 round.


Love. it. But what dose RKV and IL meen in the 2nd build?
(S)

[BlueInc]

Love. it. But what dose RKV and IL meen in the 2nd build?
(S)

Ruby Knight Vindicator - the prestige class

Initiator Level - "Caster level" determining what martial maneuvers and stances you can learn.

[Hiro Protagonest]

FTFY :smallwink:

*facepalm*

http://i56.tinypic.com/bil3f7.jpg

[Darrin]

Ruby Knight Vindicator - the prestige class


RKV can also mean "Relativistic Kill Vehicle", which in some circles may be considered a synonym for Ruby Knight Vindicator.

I just noticed Nick274 mentioned Warblade the OP. My general advice for ranged Warblades can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420) (most of which I stole for the post above).

Elven Warblades can also take advantage of the Eternal Blade PrC, which makes for an interesting capstone: Time Stands Still + Island in Time.

Eternal Warbow build
1) Warblade 1. IL 1.0. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Warblade 2. IL 2.0.
3) Warblade 3. IL 3.0. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Warblade 4. IL 4.0.
5) Warblade 5. IL 5.0. Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative.
6) Warblade 6. IL 6.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Warblade 7. IL 7.0.
8) Warblade 8. IL 8.0.
9) Warblade 9. IL 9.0. Feat: Weapon Focus. Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes.
10) Warblade 10. IL 10.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 11.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 12.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 13.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 14.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 15.0. Feat: Gr. Manyshot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL16.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 18.0. Martial Stance: Balance on the Sky.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 19.0.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 20.0. Island in Time.

Crusader 10/Eternal Blade 10 looks pretty much the same, but doesn't have to jump through any hoops to get ranged weapon proficiency. But the OP didn't ask about Crusaders.