My Cleric "Fix" [3.5]

[Ziegander]

The Cleric

Designer's Notes

First things first, this is not a reimagining of the Cleric archetype as I often do with base classes. I handled that pretty well, I think, with my Priest class. This aims to keep the spirit of the Cleric class while bringing its phenomenal cosmic power a bit more down to earth. These changes aren't enough to lower the Cleric's power beyond Tier 2. If you'd prefer you can eliminate 8th and 9th level spells (see the Spells section for an alternate spells per day table), that should bring it much closer to Tier 3. Changes to spells or feats is beyond the scope of this project, as the main idea here is to avoid too many new things for players to learn. Let me know what you think.


http://neverwintervault.org/sites/neverwintervault.org/files/project/1548/images/reliquary.jpg

Alignment: Any (see spells)
HD: d8



Level
Base Attack
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
+0

+0

+0

+2
Domains, Domain Power
3
1


2nd
+1

+0

+0

+3

4
2


3rd
+2

+0

+0

+3

4
3
1


4th
+3

+1

+1

+4

4
3
2


5th
+3

+1

+1

+4
Domain Power
4
3
3
1


6th
+4

+2

+2

+5

4
4
3
2


7th
+5

+2

+2

+5

4
4
3
3
1


8th
+6/+1

+2

+2

+6

4
4
4
3
2


9th
+6/+1

+3

+3

+6

4
4
4
3
3
1


10th
+7/+2

+3

+3

+7
Domain Power
4
4
4
4
3
2


11th
+8/+3

+3

+3

+7

4
4
4
4
3
3
1


12th
+9/+4

+4

+4

+8

4
4
4
4
4
3
2


13th
+9/+4

+4

+4

+8

4
4
4
4
4
3
3
1


14th
+10/+5

+4

+4

+9

4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


15th
+11/+6/+1

+5

+5

+9
Domain Power
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
1


16th
+12/+7/+2

+5

+5

+10

4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


17th
+12/+7/+2

+5

+5

+10

4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
1


18th
+13/+8/+3

+6

+6

+11

4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


19th
+14/+9/+4

+6

+6

+11

4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3


20th
+15/+10/+5

+6

+6

+12
Domain Power
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4



Class Skills (2+Int): Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, and Knowledge (Religion) (plus Domain Skills).

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons and with their deity's favored weapon (if they worship a deity). Clerics are proficient with light armor, medium armor, and shields (but not Tower Shields).

Spells
A Cleric casts divine spells which are drawn from a spell list unique to each member of the class. This unique spell list is comprised of all orisons from the Cleric spell list* as well as all spells from her chosen domains (see Domains).

*(The above mentions of the Cleric spell list reference the normal WotC Cleric spell list)

A Cleric casts her spells spontaneously as a Sorcerer does, and she knows each spell on her list of a level she is able to cast. To cast a spell, a Cleric must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + spell level. She may not learn or cast a spell with an alignment opposed to her own, or opposed to her deity's if she worships one. A Cleric may cast any spell on her spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level.

Like other spellcasters, a Cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. The saving throw DC of a spell cast by a Cleric is 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Wisdom modifier regardless of the spell's level.

When a Cleric casts a spell it always has a divine focus (DF) component, and so she must always present her holy symbol in order to cast1. This is not done merely by wearing the symbol in plain view or having it emblazoned upon herself; rather, she must take the symbol in hand and hold it aloft.

Restricted Spells Per Day Table (no 8th or 9th level)



Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th


1st
3
1


2nd
4
2


3rd
4
3
1


4th
4
3
2


5th
4
4
3


6th
4
4
3
1


7th
4
4
3
2


8th
4
4
4
2


9th
4
4
4
3
1


10th
4
4
4
3
2


11th
4
4
4
3
2


12th
4
4
4
4
3
1


13th
4
4
4
4
3
2


14th
4
4
4
4
3
2


15th
4
4
4
4
4
3
1


16th
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


17th
4
4
4
4
4
4
2


18th
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
1


19th
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


20th
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4




Prayer
At 1st level, a Cleric chooses a specific time of the day, usually associated with some daily event, to set aside for prayer. A Cleric that does not pray at their chosen time suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and to caster level until which time she is able to pray. This penalty increases by -2 for every 24 hours the Cleric goes without praying. If her caster level is reduced to 0 in this way, the Cleric may not cast spells. Her time in prayer requires 1 hour of uninterrupted Concentration.

When praying, a Cleric often asks for guidance from whatever spirituality motivates her. If she does, starting at 2nd level, she may request additional power to add a single spell per two Cleric levels from the Cleric spell list to her spells known of a spell level she is able to cast. She may not add more than one spell per spell level in this way. These additional spells are removed from her list of spells known the next time she is scheduled to pray whether she prays at that time or not.

Domains
Clerics choose five domains at 1st level, adding the spells from those domains to her spell list and additional skills to her skill list (see below). A Cleric does not gain the domain powers of domains chosen this way (see Domain Power). She may not choose domains associated with an alignment opposed to her own, or opposed to her deity's alignment if she worships one.

A Cleric does not need to worship a deity; however, if she does she may gain additional benefits depending on the domains she chooses. If a Cleric chooses at least two domains granted by her deity she gains a +1 bonus to her caster level when casting spells among her deity's granted domains. If a Cleric chooses all of the domains granted by her deity (as many or as few as this may be) she gains an additional spell slot per day of each spell level available to her. A Cleric that worships a deity doesn't need to choose any of the domains granted by her deity, but many do.

Domain Power
At first level, 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, a Cleric gains the domain power of one of her chosen domains. A Cleric may use her domain powers in total a number of times each day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Activating a domain power taking longer than a swift action requires the Cleric to clearly present her holy symbol and provokes attacks of opportunity (even if it is a supernatural ability). Each time she gains a new domain power, she gains an additional use of her domain powers per day. The saving throw DC for any domain power is 10 + 1/2 Cleric level + Charisma modifier.

Domain Power is used in place of Turn/Rebuke Undead for the purpose of qualifying for feats, items, or class features. If she has any feats, items, or class features that spend Turn/Rebuke Undead attempts to produce an effect she may instead spend a daily use of her domain powers (see below).

Cleric Domains: Skills & Powers

If a domain power grows in power at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, it does so only at Cleric 5, Cleric 10, Cleric 15, and Cleric 20. All bonuses granted by domain powers are sacred or profane in nature (depending on the Cleric's alignment; neutral defaults to sacred).

When more than one domain would add the same spell to your spell list you gain a +1 bonus to caster level when casting that spell for each domain beyond the first.

When more than one domain would add the same skill to your class skills you gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to checks with that skill.

More domains to be added later...

Air Domain
Domain Skill: Ride.
Domain Power: As listed in the SRD.

Animal Domain
Domain Skill: Handle Animal
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action, and when you do choose Claws or Bite. For 1 minute you gain a +10ft bonus to land speed, a natural attack according to your choice (2 claws that deal 1d4+Str, or 1 bite that deals 1d10 + 1.5 x Str), and either Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) (Claws) or Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) (Bite). The bonus to Speed becomes +20ft at 5th level, +30ft at 10th level, +40ft at 15th level, and +50ft at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Artifice Domain
Domain Skill: You get a +3 sacred or profane bonus to all Craft checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: As a standard action, you may Turn and/or Rebuke Constructs, regardless of your alignment, choosing which to use as you activate this power. This is a supernatural ability.

Balance Domain
Domain Skill: You get a +3 sacred or profane bonus to Concentration checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action, even when it isn't your turn, to add your Wisdom modifier to an ability check, attack roll, damage roll, opposed roll, or saving throw. You may use this power more than once on the same roll if you choose. This is an extraordinary ability.

Celerity Domain
Domain Skill: Tumble
Domain Power: You may activate this power as an immediate action. If you do, choose one - Make an attack of opportunity against a creature you threaten; or give up your next move action to move up to 1/2 your speed. This is an extraordinary ability.

Chaos Domain
Domain Skill: Bluff
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action and creates an aura centered on you out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 round, within which chaotic spells gain a +1 bonus to caster level and lawful spells suffer a -1 penalty to caster level. The bonus and penalty become +2/-2 at 5th level, +3/-3 at 10th level, +4/-4 at 15th level, and +5/-5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Charm Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to Charisma based skill checks (aside from Use Magic Device) rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: Make a melee touch attack to activate this power. If your attack hits, for 1 round, the target is flat-footed (Will negates) and suffers a -4 penalty to Listen, Search, and Spot checks to notice anything other than you (Will halves). This power lasts 2 rounds and the penalty becomes -8 at 5th level, 3 rounds and -12 at 10th level, 4 rounds and -16 at 15th level, and 5 rounds and -20 at 20th. This power is an extraordinary ability.

Cold Domain
Domain Skill: Survival
Domain Power: Activating this power is a standard action that deals 1d6+Cha modifier cold damage to creatures in a 10ft cone-shaped area (Reflex half). This cone deals 2d6+Cha cold damage in a 20ft area at 5th level, 4d6+Cha cold damage in a 30ft area at 10th level, 6d6+Cha cold damage in a 40ft area at 15th level, and 10d6+Cha cold damage in a 50ft area at 20th level. This is a supernatural ability.

Community Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (Local) and Profession.
Domain Power: Activating this power is a standard action that creates an aura centered on you out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 minute. During that time, if an ally in the area is attacked, instead of its own AC, use the highest AC among allies in the area. Moreover, if an ally must make a saving throw, instead of its own save bonuses, that ally adds the highest save bonus among allies in the area to its roll. This is a supernatural ability.

Darkness Domain
Domain Skill: Listen
Domain Power: Activating this power is a free action that grants you darkvision out to 30ft per Cleric level for 1 minute. At 5th level you also gain the Blind-Fight feat. At 10th level you also gain tremorsense out to 60ft. At 15th level you also gain blindsense out to 90ft. At 20th level you also gain blindsight out to 120ft. This is a spell-like ability.

Death Domain
Domain Skill: Intimidate
Domain Power: Rebuke Undead (Su).

Deathbound Domain
Domain Skill: Autohypnosis
Domain Power: Activating this ability is a swift action. When you do, for 1 minute you gain Resistance to Cold 3 and DR 1/--. You also have a 10% chance to negate critical hits, fatigue, exhaustion, or poison as well as the sickened and nauseated conditions. These grow to Resistance 6, DR 2, and 20% at 5th level, Resistance 9, DR 3, and 30% at 10th level, Resistance 12, DR 4, and 40% at 15th level, and Resistance 15, DR 5, and 50% at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Decay Domain
Domain Skill: Disable Device
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a standard action to make a ranged touch attack against an enemy within 60ft. If your attack hits that foe suffers 1d6+Cha acid damage and, unless their Reflex save succeeds, so does any item they are wearing or holding (including armor). At 5th level the range and damage of this attack become 120ft and 2d6+Cha acid damage, 180ft and 4d6+Cha acid damage at 10th level, 240ft and 6d6+Cha acid damage at 15th level, and 300ft and 10d6+Cha acid damage at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Destiny Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to Diplomacy, Heal, and Knowledge (Religion) checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as an immediate action after rolling a twenty-sided die and after learning the results of your roll to reroll the dice, taking the better of the two rolls. This is a supernatural ability.

Destruction Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)
Domain Power: When you cast a spell that deals hit point damage you may activate this power as a free action to add +1 to every damage die rolled for that spell. This bonus becomes +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Domination Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (Geography)
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action once per round to produce a Command effect as the spell against a creature within 5ft per Cleric level. This is an extraordinary ability. A creature that successfully saves against this effect is immune until you gain a level.

Dragon Domain
Domain Skill: Intimidate
Domain Power: Choose cold, electricity, or fire when you gain this domain power. You may activate this power as a free action when you charge or cast a spell on a foe or group of foes. It's effects last for 1 minute. If you do, foes within 30ft with fewer HD than your Cleric level are panicked, while creatures with HD greater than or equal to your Cleric level are shaken (Will negates). Allies within 30ft of you deal 1d6 extra damage of the chosen type when they make a melee attack against a creature that failed its saving throw against this ability. Creatures whose saving throws succeeded are immune to the fear effect until you gain a level. The extra damage becomes 2d6 at 5th level, 3d6 at 10th level, 4d6 at 15th level, and 5d6 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Dream Domain
Domain Skill: Escape Artist (or Lucid Dreaming (http://www.iourn.com/dnd/skills/skilldes.htm) if the DM prefers)
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a swift action to mimic the Augury spell as a spell-like ability.

Drow Domain
Domain Skill: Hide
Domain Power:

Dwarf Domain
Domain Skill: Search; you also gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to Appraise, Search, and Craft checks relating to metal or stone.
Domain Power: Activating this power is a standard action that creates an aura centered on you out to 5ft per Cleric level, that lasts 1 minute, within which allies that touch the ground get a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls, a +4 bonus to AC against Goblinoids and Giants, and a +4 bonus to resist Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun, and Trip attacks. Enemies within the area that touch the ground suffer a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls. The bonuses and penalties to attack and damage rolls become +2/-2 at 5th level, +3/-3 at 10th level, +4/-4 at 15th level, and +5/-5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Earth Domain
Domain Skill: Survival
Domain Power: As listed in the SRD.

Elf Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (Arcane)
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action whenever you make a ranged attack to gain a +4 bonus to the attack roll and deal 1d6 additional damage. This additional damage becomes +2d6 at 5th level, 4d6 at 10th level, 6d6 at 15th level, and 10d6 at 20th level. This is an extraordinary ability.

Envy Domain
Domain Skill: Disguise and Forgery
Domain Power:

Evil Domain
Domain Skill: Move Silently
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action and creates an aura out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 round, within which evil spells gain a +1 bonus to caster level and good spells suffer a -1 penalty to caster level. The bonus and penalty become +2/-2 at 5th level, +3/-3 at 10th level, +4/-4 at 15th level, and +5/-5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Exorcism Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +3 sacred or profane bonus to Knowledge (Religion) checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: Activating this power is full-round action that forces possessing spirits out of the bodies they inhabit. You make a Charisma check and consult Table 8-16: Turning Undead, page 159 of the Player's Handbook, using your cleric level. If the result from the table is at least equal to the HD of the possessing creature, you force it out of the body. If the spirit belongs to a spellcaster using magic jar, the spirt returns to the receptacle. If it is a ghost or a possessing fiend, it becomes ethereal and free-floating again. In any case, the spirt cannot attempt to possess the same victim again for 24 hours. This is a supernatural ability.

Fire Domain
Domain Skill: Tumble
Domain Power: As listed in the SRD.

Force Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (The Planes)
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action whenever you make a melee attack to cause all damage dealt by the attack to become force damage and add +2 damage to the attack. If your attack hits a corporeal target you may make a Bull Rush attempt against the creature struck with a +4 bonus to your roll. You may not move with the creature if you succeed, but you may move the creature more than 5ft depending on how well you succeed. This additional damage becomes +4 at 5th level, +8 at 10th level, +12 at 15th level, and +20 at 20th level. This is a supernatural ability.

Gnome Domain
Domain Skill: Bluff
Domain Power:

Good Domain
Domain Skill: Sense Motive
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action and creates an aura out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 round, within which good spells gain a +1 bonus to caster level and evil spells suffer a -1 penalty to caster level. The bonus and penalty become +2/-2 at 5th level, +3/-3 at 10th level, +4/-4 at 15th level, and +5/-5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Greed Domain
Domain Skill: Sleight of Hand
Domain Power:

Halfling Domain
Domain Skill: Hide
Domain Power:

Hatred Domain
Domain Skill: Intimidate
Domain Power:

Healing Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +3 sacred or profane bonus to Heal checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: When you cast a spell that restores hit point damage you may activate this power as a free action to cast that spell as a swift action and increase its range to Close (25ft + 5ft per two caster levels) if it was not already. This is a supernatural ability.

Hunger Domain
Domain Skill: Survival
Domain Power:

Knowledge Domain
Domain Skill: Add the Knowledge skill of your choice to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a swift action to gain a +4 bonus to Intelligence for 1 minute. This bonus becomes +8 at 5th level, +12 at 10th level, +16 at 15th level, and +20 at 20th. This is a spell-like ability.

Law Domain
Domain Skill: Listen
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action and creates an aura out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 round, within which lawful spells gain a +1 bonus to caster level and chaotic spells suffer a -1 penalty to caster level. The bonus and penalty become +2/-2 at 5th level, +3/-3 at 10th level, +4/-4 at 15th level, and +5/-5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Luck Domain
Domain Skill: Escape Artist
Domain Power: When you cast a spell you may activate this power as a free action. If you do, subtract 3 from your caster level for that spell, then roll 1d6 adding the result to your caster level for that spell. If you roll 6, add 1 to the save DC of the spell, if any. Add 2 to the save DC at 5th level, 3 at 10th level, 4 at 15th level, and 5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Madness Domain
Domain Skill: Bluff
Domain Power:

Magic Domain
Domain Skill: Use Magic Device
Domain Power: When you cast a spell you may activate this power as a free action to gain a +1 bonus to caster level with that spell. This bonus becomes +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Nobility Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)
Domain Power: Activating this ability is a standard action that creates an aura centered on you out to 5ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 minute, within which all allies (not including yourself) gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws. This bonus becomes +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th. This is an extraordinary ability.

Plant Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (Nature)
Domain Power: Activating this ability is a swift action. When you do, for 1 minute you gain 4 temporary hit points, +1 natural armor, and DR 1/adamantine. You also have a 10% chance to negate critical hits, paralysis, poison, and stunning. These grow to 8 temp hp, +2 NA, DR 2, and 20% at 5th level, 12 temp hp, +3 NA, DR 3, and 30% at 10th level, 16 temp hp, +4 NA, DR 4, and 40% at 15th level, and 20 temp hp, +5 NA, DR 5, and 50% at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Protection Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +3 sacred or profane bonus to Concentration checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a swift action to grant all allies within 5ft per Cleric level (including yourself) a +2 bonus to their next saving throw. This effect lasts 1 minute or until discharged whichever comes first. This bonus becomes +4 at 5th level, +6 at 10th level, +8 at 15th level, and +10 at 20th. This is a spell-like ability.

Renewal Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +2 sacred or profane bonus to all Craft and Heal checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as an immediate action any time you are brought to 0 or fewer hit points to regain hit points equal to your Charisma modifier. If an attack brings you to -10 hp or lower, you die before this power can take effect. This healing becomes 1d6+Charisma modifier at 5th level, 2d6+Charisma modifier at 10th level, 4d6+Charisma modifier at 15th level, and 6d6+Charisma modifier at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Strength Domain
Domain Skill: Add Climb, Jump, and Swim to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action to gain a +4 bonus to Strength for 1 round. This bonus becomes +8 at 5th level, +12 at 10th level, +16 at 15th level, and +20 at 20th. This is a spell-like ability.

Sun Domain
Domain Skill: Spot
Domain Power: Turn Undead (Su).

Time Domain
Domain Skill: Knowledge (History)
Domain Power: Make a melee touch attack to activate this power. If your attack hits, for 1 round, the creature touched is frozen in time (Will negates), unable to act but also unaffected by any actions or circumstances around it. You may extend the duration of this power up to 2 rounds at 5th level, 3 rounds at 10th level, 4 rounds at 15th level, and 5 rounds at 20th. This is a supernatural ability.

Travel Domain
Domain Skill: Add Decipher Script and Speak Language to your class skills.
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action, even when it is not your turn, to produce a Freedom of Movement effect as the spell. This effect lasts only 1 round. This is a spell-like ability.

Trickery Domain
Domain Skill: Sleight of Hand
Domain Power: You may activate this power as an immediate action after a creature within 5ft per Cleric level rolls a twenty-sided die before you learn the results of the roll to force that creature to reroll the dice, taking the worse of the two rolls (Will negates). This is a supernatural ability.

War Domain
Domain Skill: Balance
Domain Power: You may activate this power as a free action whenever you make a melee attack to gain a +4 bonus to the attack roll and deal 1d6 additional damage. This additional damage becomes +2d6 at 5th level, 4d6 at 10th level, 6d6 at 15th level, and 10d6 at 20th level. This is an extraordinary ability.

Water Domain
Domain Skill: Swim. You also gain a +8 bonus to Swim checks made to perform some special action or avoid a hazard, can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered, and can use the run action while swimming, provided you swim in a straight line.
Domain Power: As listed in the SRD.

Weather Domain
Domain Skill: Survival
Domain Power: Activating this power requires 1 entire round of Concentration, after which an aura is centered on you out to 50ft per Cleric level that lasts for 1 minute. During that time, at the start of each of your turns randomly select a foe within the area. That creature takes 1d6+Cha electricity damage (Reflex negates). This damage becomes 2d6+Cha at 5th level, 4d6+Cha at 10th level, 6d6+Cha at 15th level, and 10d6+Cha at 20th. This ability cannot be used indoors and is a spell-like ability.

Wrath Domain
Domain Skill: You gain a +3 sacred or profane bonus to Concentration checks rather than adding a new skill to your class skills.
Domain Power: Activating this power is a swift action that marks a creature within your line of sight for the next minute. The next time the marked creature deals damage to you, record the damage it deals. The next time you deal the marked creature damage you discharge the power, removing the mark, and deal your normal amount of damage or the recorded damage, whichever is more. You can mark only one creature at a time in this way, but you may discharge a mark prematurely if you wish as a free action. You must take damage from the marked creature within 1 minute of using this power and, after taking damage, you must strike your foe within 1 minute, or the power is wasted. This is a supernatural ability.


1Symbolic Weapon/Shield Property
A weapon or shield with this property is treated for all purposes as a Cleric's holy symbol. Furthermore, while wielding a Symbolic Weapon or Shield a Cleric may ignore the somatic components of spells she casts. Finally, a Symbolic Weapon overcomes damage reduction as aligned with the Cleric's alignment, while a Symbolic Shield grants the Cleric DR 3/alignments that oppose the Cleric's alignment (neutral Clerics do not gain these benefits).

Moderate Transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, align weapon; Price +1 bonus.

Divine Blessing
Prerequisites: Domain Power
Benefit: Each time you take this feat you add three to your total uses of Domain Power per day.
Special: You may take Divine Blessing multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you gain three additional uses of Domain Power per day. Divine Blessing may be used in place of Extra Turning to meet the prerequisites of feats or prestige classes.

[Ashtagon]

If a domain power grows in power at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, it does so only at Cleric 5, Cleric 10, Cleric 15, and Cleric 20.

This could be worded better.

----

Overall, I'm not seeing how this is a fix. The only change appears to be an implied change in spell lists, but I can't see where this is detailed, unless you mean that the domain spells *are* the spell list. If that is the case, then I see a problem in that many spells that would make sense will simply not be available. If the cleric acquires spells in the same manner as a wizard, it's broken again as soon as the cleric hits the local magic mart.

Also, many deities don't even have five domains, at least in core. How do these ones work? Some have more than five domains, so can't qualify for the "has chosen all the deity's domains" bonus. How does that one work?

[Ziegander]

Overall, I'm not seeing how this is a fix. The only change appears to be an implied change in spell lists, but I can't see where this is detailed, unless you mean that the domain spells *are* the spell list.

There's plenty more changed than that, but yes, that is the intention. In reading through it again I realize that in one of my last edits I made that unclear. I'll try to revise it properly ... actually, I'm not sure how you're missing that. The spell list is domains spells + 1 spell from the Cleric spell list per level. What should I do to clarify that?

EDIT: I added a footnote, hopefully that calls attention to things where needed. EDITEDIT: Made a further wording change that hopefully clears up any remaining shadows of doubt.


If that is the case, then I see a problem in that many spells that would make sense will simply not be available.

What do you mean by this?


If the cleric acquires spells in the same manner as a wizard, it's broken again as soon as the cleric hits the local magic mart.

No, the Cleric does not acquire spells in the same manner as a Wizard. What would make you think that?


Also, many deities don't even have five domains, at least in core. How do these ones work? Some have more than five domains, so can't qualify for the "has chosen all the deity's domains" bonus. How does that one work?

I thought the domains section was clear myself, but let me attempt to clarify. You choose five domains. Whether you worship a deity is up to you. If you do worship a deity, whether you choose any of that deity's domains is up to you. If you choose to worship a deity with more than five domains, then you cannot qualify for "has chosen all the deity's domains" bonus. I may include an Extra Domain feat, but I worry doing so would be far too powerful.

[Dryad]

Okay; this doesn't sound like a cleric fix (purely power-wise) to me. There's a few more class features through domains (which is nice; a huge bonus) and apparently, the spell list is a bit less powerful than normal, or better: a lot less versatile than normal, but you still get five+ spells known of each spell level.
I like the option for a restricted spell list, but whenever I see a restricted spell list, the first things I'm thinking about is spells/day and save DC. If you're restricting a spell list, you need to include a way to increase the save DC, and you need to increase the number of spells per day (quite drastically), lest the class not only use its power, but also much of its stand-alone usefulness (not everyone wants to be a heal/buff-bot who spends all the fight waiting for someone to get hurt).
I like the simplicity of your spells known fix: It allows both a great chosen versatility through the domains as well as that extra spell from the ordinary spell list, while limiting the ability to simply prepare a fully specialized spell list, tailor-made for each encounter you have divined the day beforehand.
The bit where you still have to prepare your spells, though, is a bit restricting. A sorcerer knows only a limited amount of spells (though probably far less than your cleric fix) but she's not restricted by spell preparation. Since Clerics also do not gain their magical powers through learning (relying instead on force of will, power of conviction, and, in quite a few cases blind faith) it was a strange approach to make them prepared casters in the first place (Your mechanic is indeed much more elegant in that respect).

If you ask me, the biggest problem with Clerics is actually their BaB progression. 3/4, while I think it should be 1/2. War clerics could still buff themselves and start going the way of the gish (though far less effectively, I'm quite aware), but I think a predominantly spellcasting class, and especially a servile class like the Cleric, should not seek out personal glory in battle. They should support, heal, possibly smite, but to fight would be silliness.
Yet it is the Cleric's BaB that invites people to create martial clerics, and martial clerics are the problem in most stories because they outshine everyone (apart from Warblades) in melee, while also being able to cast all sorts of other spells.

[Ashtagon]

The reason I think "domain spells only, plus one spell per class level" is overly restrictive, is that it prevents you from having decent flexibility within a given theme.

If I worship the flaming god of fiery fires, I want the fire domain. That means I don't get flame strike or continual flame unless I spend one of those 10 free-choice spells on it. Every domain has this issue (fire domain is less-affected by this problem than others, as core places most "fire" spells as arcane). You get flexibility, but you don't get themed. This problem is even more noticeable once you add common extensions to core, such as the Spell Compendium and Complete Divine.

Also, you want to make holy water? That's one of your 10 right there. Same for common staples such as detect evil, bull's strength, hold person, remove disease, commune, plane shift, and atonement.

On the plus side, the change does remove raise dead (and related spells) from the game unless you spend one of the 10. In other words, that becomes the automatic choice as soon as you have 5th level spells, unless the GM bans the spell by fiat.

[Set]

What do you mean by this?

He means, I suspect, that if the cleric doesn't have the Healing domain as one of their choices, they won't be able to cast cure spells. Many 'staples' of the Cleric class don't even appear on Domain lists (like lesser restoration), and so will not be available save via the 'add spells' feature, which is limited to ten spells, total.

One option might be to add back in the spontaneous healing/inflict option.


No, the Cleric does not acquire spells in the same manner as a Wizard. What would make you think that?

This line might be unclear,

At 2nd level and every even level thereafter she may add any spell to her spell list that is from the Cleric spell list and of a level she is able to cast.

Changing 'any spell' to 'a single spell' might make it clearer that the Cleric can only add one spell at 2nd level, another at 4th, etc. and can't just add spells willy-nilly.

.

My pet peeve is the use of sacred/profane bonuses at one point. It's hardly your fault that the 3.X designers failed english, but if something is sacred to an evil god, it's still sacred. Something profane would be some hypothetical anti-divine-magic / irreligious wizard spell or something. Making the sacred and profane bonuses seperate bonuses not only represents a comprehension fail on the part of the 3.X designers, but also a mechanical fail, since it allows one to stack profane and sacred bonuses. If a 'holy' bonus from Asmodeus and from Pelor both were 'sacred' bonuses, they wouldn't be able to stack, *which would make sense*. But since the designers chose to inaccurately label one a 'profane' bonus, they suddenly become, against all logic, stackable.

[Ziegander]

The reason I think "domain spells only, plus one spell per class level" is overly restrictive, is that it prevents you from having decent flexibility within a given theme.

Which... is the entire point? The Cleric is Tier 1 because its spells known list is hundreds of spells. This "fix" brings it down to earth by restricting its spell list. It no longer knows every Cleric spell ever. That's a feature, not a bug. :smallannoyed:


If I worship the flaming god of fiery fires, I want the fire domain. That means I don't get flame strike or continual flame unless I spend one of those 10 free-choice spells on it. Every domain has this issue (fire domain is less-affected by this problem than others, as core places most "fire" spells as arcane). You get flexibility, but you don't get themed. This problem is even more noticeable once you add common extensions to core, such as the Spell Compendium and Complete Divine.

Yes, the change to your spell list means that *gasp* you don't have every spell you could possibly want and more. Somehow I think the world will keep spinning and the Clerics will keep kicking a lot of tail.


One option might be to add back in the spontaneous healing/inflict option.

Hmmm... don't wanna do that; it makes choosing the Healing domain irrelevant other than for the domain power.


Changing 'any spell' to 'a single spell' might make it clearer that the Cleric can only add one spell at 2nd level, another at 4th, etc. and can't just add spells willy-nilly.

Good point. I've changed the wording.

[Ashtagon]

Yes, the change to your spell list means that *gasp* you don't have every spell you could possibly want and more. Somehow I think the world will keep spinning and the Clerics will keep kicking a lot of tail.

Yes, but my point is this. The RAW cleric has all the ice spells, all the fire spells, all the death spells, all the trickster spells, and so on. This cleric gets one of each. But as a devout follower of the flaming god of fiery fires, I want to dump all the ice spells and all the death spells and all the trickster spells, not still have one of each. I still want a restricted list, but a themed restricted list.

[Ziegander]

Okay; this doesn't sound like a cleric fix (purely power-wise) to me. There's a few more class features through domains (which is nice; a huge bonus) and apparently, the spell list is a bit less powerful than normal, or better: a lot less versatile than normal, but you still get five+ spells known of each spell level.

The spell list is a huge nerf over your standard WotC Cleric. Five+ spells known of each spell level < piles and piles and piles of spells known all the time.


I like the option for a restricted spell list, but whenever I see a restricted spell list, the first things I'm thinking about is spells/day and save DC.

Took care of the save DC issue.


If you're restricting a spell list [...] you need to increase the number of spells per day (quite drastically), lest the class not only use its power, but also much of its stand-alone usefulness (not everyone wants to be a heal/buff-bot who spends all the fight waiting for someone to get hurt).

When we're talking about a class like the Sorcerer, I'd agree with you there. It needs many more spells per day to function properly because its only class features are spells and it isn't built to have a chance to do anything else. On the other hand, the Cleric has d8 HD, medium BAB, armor proficiencies, and class features. It is quite able to do things other than cast its spells, so it doesn't need any extra spells per day, not really. You're a Cleric, you don't have to be heal/buff bot, you don't have to wait around until something happens. You're awesome. :smallsmile:


Yet it is the Cleric's BaB that invites people to create martial clerics, and martial clerics are the problem in most stories because they outshine everyone (apart from Warblades) in melee, while also being able to cast all sorts of other spells.

Well, with the changes in how casting works and the restrictive spell list, the Cleric must now spend most of his resources if he wants to match the Warblade in melee (if he can) and he won't have the versatility to do much else. I really don't see a problem with that.

[Ziegander]

Yes, but my point is this. The RAW cleric has all the ice spells, all the fire spells, all the death spells, all the trickster spells, and so on. This cleric gets one of each. But as a devout follower of the flaming god of fiery fires, I want to dump all the ice spells and all the death spells and all the trickster spells, not still have one of each. I still want a restricted list, but a themed restricted list.

I'm thoroughly confused. You don't have to have one of each ice spell, death spell, and trickster spell. You get to choose your domains. Let's look into this, shall we? You are a devout follower of the flaming god of fiery fires, we'll call him Surtur (from the Norse Pantheon). According to Deities & Demigods, his domains are Evil, Fire, Law, Strength, and War, and because you're such a devoted follower you went ahead and chose your domains to perfectly match, netting you +1 caster level with your domain spells and +1 spell slot per spell level. Nice. Okay, so, using my Cleric, your spell list will be as follows:

1st level - Burning Hands, Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, Protection from Chaos/Good

2nd level - Bull's Strength, Calm Emotions, Desecrate, Produce Flame, Spiritual Weapon

3rd level - Magic Circle Against Chaos/Good, Magic Vestment, Resist (Fire) Energy

4th level - Divine Power, Order's Wrath, Spell Immunity, Unholy Blight, Wall of Fire

5th level - Dispel Chaos/Good, Fire Shield, Flame Strike, Righteous Might

6th level - Blade Barrier, Create Undead, Fire Seeds, Hold Monster, Stoneskin

7th level - Blasphemy, Dictum, Fire Storm, Grasping Hand, Power Word Blind

8th level - Clenched Fist, Incendiary Cloud, Power Word Stun, Shield of Law, Unholy Aura

9th level - Crushing Hand, Elemental (Fire) Swarm, Power Word Kill, Summon (Lawful or Evil) Monster IX

And you can choose any other 10 spells you want to add as you gain levels, but not a single one of them has to be ice, death, or tricks related. I'm afraid I must be entirely misunderstanding your concern.

[Ashtagon]

Yes, I realise you can simply not pick ice, death, tricks, etc. But my point is that you must pick five domains, four of which are unlikely to be relevant to such a fire-dedicated deity. And the only way to round out the fire-themed spell list is by using a few of those ten wildcard picks, which are, in practice, required to be spent on spells that are essential for the core function of the cleric class.

[Dryad]

When we're talking about a class like the Sorcerer,
Actually, I was talking about your 'Restricted Spell List,' where the end-tier spells are not attainable.


The spell list is a huge nerf over your standard WotC Cleric. Five+ spells known of each spell level < piles and piles and piles of spells known all the time.
Yes; it is a huge nerf. But I was talking about raw power; not versatility.


On the other hand, the Cleric has d8 HD, medium BAB, armor proficiencies, and class features.
And I was trying to explain why the medium BaB is, at least, a bad idea. Also: No; the Cleric doesn't have class features. In most cases, Turn Undead is a joke, the Domain powers aren't all that useful; they're either a 1/day ability with very short duration, or a bonus class skill for which you don't have enough skill points.
Clerics rely on their high BaB and their ability to enhance their combat prowess even further. That's the heart and soul of the Clericzilla. Take away the BaB, and the Clericzilla could still exist, but be a lot less impressive.


I'm afraid I must be entirely misunderstanding your concern.
Your example does not fit the concern at all. You just made a spell list that has no death, trickery or ice spells in order to prove a point, rather than to answer the concern:
A cleric of fire should have a boatload of FIRE themed spells.
Lvl 1: Burning Hands, summon Fire Elemental, Flame Blade, Fire Seed
lvl 2: Produce Flame, Flaming Sphere, Summon Fire Elemental II, Enflame Emotions
Lvl 3... Etcetera.

Instead, you are a Cleric of Fire with 1, maybe 2 fire-themed spells in your spell list for each spell level you can cast.
THAT was the voiced concern.

[The Winter King]

Your example does not fit the concern at all. You just made a spell list that has no death, trickery or ice spells in order to prove a point, rather than to answer the concern:
A cleric of fire should have a boatload of FIRE themed spells.
Lvl 1: Burning Hands, summon Fire Elemental, Flame Blade, Fire Seed
lvl 2: Produce Flame, Flaming Sphere, Summon Fire Elemental II, Enflame Emotions
Lvl 3... Etcetera.

Instead, you are a Cleric of Fire with 1, maybe 2 fire-themed spells in your spell list for each spell level you can cast.
THAT was the voiced concern.

@Ziegander: perhaps you could make it so that you can give up one of your domains to gain acess to an expanded domain spell list? or gain other benefits with that domain? Also I have to agree with dryad in that when I think of a cleric I think of a priest or monk during the dark ages, not a metal clad warrior. Thats a Paladin or a Crusader.

[Ziegander]

And the only way to round out the fire-themed spell list is by using a few of those ten wildcard picks, which are, in practice, required to be spent on spells that are essential for the core function of the cleric class.

The "core function of the cleric class?" Which is what? Heal bot?


@Ziegander: perhaps you could make it so that you can give up one of your domains to gain acess to an expanded domain spell list? or gain other benefits with that domain?

It's something to consider, but I hardly feel like Ash's complaint is legitimate. There are about, oh, zero published "flaming deities of fiery fire" in the game, which is to say, that not one deity in the game is focused solely on fire. He's (or she?) pretty much complaining that my fix doesn't do something properly that the regular Cleric doesn't either.

If I were to design an ACF that allowed the trading in of one or more domains for extra themed spells, I'd need it to be simple in order to go along with the spirit of the "fix." And therein lies the problem, in keeping it simple I still wouldn't please Ashtagon, so why would I worry about doing it?

Probably the better solution would be to simply not worship a deity and work with your DM to create new "fiery" domains, with their own domain skills, powers, and spells.


Also I have to agree with dryad in that when I think of a cleric I think of a priest or monk during the dark ages, not a metal clad warrior. Thats a Paladin or a Crusader.

So, you don't like the normal Cleric, and this Cleric, as seems clear from my designer's notes (I'll go ahead and add clarifying language after this post), does not seek to change the normal functioning of the Cleric, but rather attempts to reign in its power here and there. So if this is a problem you have with my Cleric, then it's a problem that you have with the standard Cleric as well. Perhaps you would like my Priest (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11879.0) class better, which is fine.

[Zombimode]

There are about, oh, zero published "flaming deities of fiery fire" in the game, which is to say, that not one deity in the game is focused solely on fire.

Kossuth from Faerun would like to have a word with you.

[Ziegander]

Kossuth from Faerun would like to have a word with you.

Kossuth is made of primordial fire. He is not concerned only with fire. His domains are Destruction, Fire, Renewal, and Suffering.

[Ashtagon]

but I hardly feel like Ash's complaint is legitimate. There are about, oh, zero published "flaming deities of fiery fire" in the game, which is to say, that not one deity in the game is focused solely on fire. He's (or she?) pretty much complaining that my fix doesn't do something properly that the regular Cleric doesn't either.

My preferred pronoun is "she", thanks. There's even a cute little icon next to my name.

And yes, I did complain that your fix didn't do something properly that the regular Cleric doesn't either. Making something do something properly is the basic point of fixing something. What you have is a change, not a fix.

a) I was using "flaming god of fiery fire" as a placeholder for any kind of monomaniac deity who has a single highly-focused interest. While there might not be such an example in WotC publications for fire, there may well be for some other concept. Any concept can have a monomaniac deity, not just fire. In any case, Dark Sun pretty much epitomises this in core, since clerics there must specialise in one of the four classical elements. You simply can't make a believable Dark Sun cleric in your system.

b) Even if there weren't any in published literature, many people play in their own settings with their own deities. I'm fairly certain more than one person out there plays with monomaniac deities.

[Ziegander]

And yes, I did complain that your fix didn't do something properly that the regular Cleric doesn't either. Making something do something properly is the basic point of fixing something. What you have is a change, not a fix.

I beg to differ. I fixed exactly what I set out to fix, the Cleric's versatility problem. I apologize that I did not fix what you wanted me to fix, but that's simply beyond the scope of the project.


a) In any case, Dark Sun pretty much epitomises this in core, since clerics there must specialise in one of the four classical elements. You simply can't make a believable Dark Sun cleric in your system.

This is going to sound harsh, but use the Dark Sun Cleric when you want a Dark Sun Cleric then. I'm sure they have altered mechanics for that, right?


b) I'm fairly certain more than one person out there plays with monomaniac deities.

Oh, I'm sure they do too, which means those deities have domains assigned to them by the homebrewer. If they give their fire deity a bunch of fire themed domains of different stripes, then it works the way you want it to. If they give their fire deity a fire domain along with other domains, well, clearly they didn't want it to only have a fire focus to begin with. *shrug*

EDIT: However, all of this discussion has made me consider an ACF. Now, there's no game mechanics for the concept yet, as I'm not absolutely sure how I'd carry it out, but I'll be working on this.

Alternate Class Feature
Elemental Cursor
An Elemental Cursor is a Cleric that is devoted to the purity of one of the four primordial elements, Earth, Air, Fire, or Water. These Clerics do not choose five domains, nor do they worship a deity, but rather they gain many spells of a specialized focus and the domain that shares its name with their element.

Servant of the Deep Earth

Coming soon...


Servant of the Noble Air

Coming soon...


Servant of the Secret Fire

Coming soon...


Servant of the Rushing Water

Coming soon...

[Dryad]

So, you don't like the normal Cleric, and this Cleric, as seems clear from my designer's notes (I'll go ahead and add clarifying language after this post), does not seek to change the normal functioning of the Cleric, but rather attempts to reign in its power here and there. So if this is a problem you have with my Cleric, then it's a problem that you have with the standard Cleric as well. Perhaps you would like my Priest class better, which is fine.
Oh, no; I do like the regular cleric, and the way it functions. You're not reading us right. I'm afraid you take us all way too offensively.

The suggestion of lowering the Cleric's BaB is neat and simple: The BaB is the source of most of the Cleric's system abuse. As such, it is an initial design flaw, and if you seek to rectify the Cleric's power, then the suggestion of lowering it's BaB should not come off as us trying to be snooty with you.
None of the other critique is meant as us being snooty; we're just being honest and try to help.

You wanted to set out and limit the Cleric's power by limiting its versatility. Which is fine and dandy, don't get me wrong. But the way you've done so is also otherwise restricting.
An example: 'Atheist' clerics, like those from conviction-based paths (like today's real-world buddhism) would be in trouble since they cannot take their deity's domain spells. According to your system, they should be punished quite gravely for that. They gain less spells per day for not worshipping a deity, and yet, they get nothing in return. In effect, your fix is forcing worship-based religion.
One other problem is prepared casting versus spontaneous casting. Your cleric has a 'spells known' list that progresses in much the same way as a spontaneous caster (choose once, and you're stuck with it) only that you can ONLY choose when you create your character, and that goes for all spell levels (apart from the bonus freebie spell every other level). So you're pretty much stuck to that progression, unlike a spontaneous caster. You also need to prepare spells, unlike a spontaneous caster. Spell preparation means you effectively lose spell slots whenever you can't use a spell in a given situation. Meaning that, effectively, this Cleric has less spell slots per day than other classes, since the class no longer gets the advantage of foresight in her preparation list. It becomes a bit of a guess, really.

All in all, this class does do what you wanted: It restricts the versatility of the cleric. The only problem is that this forces the player to tunnel-vision from first level all through her last. What you pick at the start will be paramount to your gaming experience, and rather than getting something new every level, you merely gain access to spells your already have, but simply cannot use yet. After all, you pick your limited spell list at the start of character creation.

And then there's the bonus spell known every other level. What's to prevent a Cleric taking the Miracle spell? Back to tier one, by making just a single choice.
There has to be a way in between.

I'd try to give other pointers, but Ashtagon has already made them.
Only one more: Your responses are perhaps a bit too defensive, which provokes sterner replies.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The difficulty in any sort of cleric design is that the class has to be capable of healing and buffing the party, while still being interesting to play. That dual-purpose is the source of a lot of problems.

That being said, I think you're being unnecessarily restrictive here. Yes, the Cleric can be incredibly overpowered because of its spell list. Short of re-balancing every spell in the game, there's only a limited amount any you can do to circumvent that. Lower the BAB? Divine Power, and it doesn't matter anymore. And so on.

That being said, let's look at the class you have designed. It looks to me like you went too far in restricting spells. You actually know fewer spells of each level than the Favored Soul, except for the highest levels (where the most broken stuff is). And yet, you have to prepare spells? Why?

Also, there are certain things that every party cleric is going to be expected to do, like heal. I guarantee you that every person who rolls up your version of the cleric is picking the healing domain.


If you want to stick to a cleric with a limited spell list who still prepares spells, my recommendation is to come up with a limited spell list-- say, four or five spells of each level that are useful and balanced, and, most importantly, universally useful. Things like the Cure spells and Protection from Energy and Prayer-- things every cleric needs to do to fill their role in the party. Then let players add a few domains.

[Ziegander]

That being said, let's look at the class you have designed. It looks to me like you went too far in restricting spells. You actually know fewer spells of each level than the Favored Soul, except for the highest levels (where the most broken stuff is). And yet, you have to prepare spells? Why?

How many spells of each level does the Favored Soul know? I'm away from books, but I would have expected it to be the same as a Sorcerer. I'm seeing the merit in changing the spellcasting to spontaneous though, and will do so.


Things like the Cure spells and Protection from Energy and Prayer-- things every cleric needs to do to fill their role in the party. Then let players add a few domains.

See... *sigh* A Cleric's role is not healer and buffer. The Cleric, even with the changes I made, is incredibly flexible, allowing hundreds of viable and fulfilling character concepts to be realized, none of which need have anything to do with restoring hit point damage. I'm not trying to change that spirit of flexibility in build, but I am trying to change it in play.

With the changes I've made, no two Clerics will be the same, and Clerics of different deities will play quite differently from one another (a good thing in my opinion); however one Cleric is the same from one day to the next, she cannot simply prepare an entirely alien list of spells known tomorrow and fully change her tactics.

When using the "restricted spells per day" option I presented, bump the skill points per level to 4+Int and allow them to choose a single spell to add to their spell list at every level, not just at every even level.

[Stycotl]

whoa. chill out, people. you guys are coming off a lot more hostile toward ziegander than i think you realize.


Your example does not fit the concern at all. You just made a spell list that has no death, trickery or ice spells in order to prove a point, rather than to answer the concern:

his spell list seemed legit to me. i've never seen a one-trick pony PC that was fun to play. if you want to play an uber-fire cleric, then you are playing against the traditionally held value that some level of versatility is good, and therefore, that focusing solely on one domain would be a bad idea.

but whatever; you can play how you want. in that case, create more domains, which is perfectly legal as far as i remember, and even if it isn't, i'm sure most DMs would be willing to throw a player in this situation a bone and allow it since the player is shooting his/herself in the foot by focusing on nothing but fire.

just realize that yes, you are playing in a way that most game designers don't intend, that most DMs don't plan for, and that most players don't play (with the exception of all of the horribly nerfed melee classes).

that said, there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to narrow your versatility that much, so long as the rest of the group is ready for it. but don't pretend that this is normal and needs to be built into the system.


Kossuth is made of primordial fire. He is not concerned only with fire. His domains are Destruction, Fire, Renewal, and Suffering.

case and point. even the primordial fire god has other hobbies. if you were in my game worshipping kossuth and wanted only fire spells, i'd be more than happy to dig up obscure fire-related domains and homebrew my own to fit your character's obsessive personality.


What you have is a change, not a fix.

by your definition. don't presume that yours is the only valid perspective.


In any case, Dark Sun pretty much epitomises this in core, since clerics there must specialise in one of the four classical elements. You simply can't make a believable Dark Sun cleric in your system.

...

i'm wondering if you read through this before posting it. dark sun's clerics are entirely different than standard D&D's; this is akin to saying that you can't make a believable dark sun bard with the canon bard class or its derivative fixes. and i would agree with you there––no you couldn't... you'd need to go to dark sun.


All in all, this class does do what you wanted: It restricts the versatility of the cleric. The only problem is that this forces the player to tunnel-vision from first level all through her last.

this is the exact opposite of what you were arguing up above. not restricted enough. too restricted.


Only one more: Your responses are perhaps a bit too defensive, which provokes sterner replies.

baloney. you are the only one that controls how "stern" you are, no matter how defensive you perceive someone to be.


Also, there are certain things that every party cleric is going to be expected to do, like heal. I guarantee you that every person who rolls up your version of the cleric is picking the healing domain.

and here is the crux of the matter.

all of us have different ideas of what a cleric is expected to do. some think a cleric is expected to heal. some expect a cleric to cast out demons. some, to simply be a spiritual figure.

everyone has different ideas of what makes a cleric a cleric and you guys are attacking this fix because it doesn't match your personal perspective or definition, which is why comments like, "what you have is a change, not a fix," don't hold any water.

it does match his definition of a fix, and it does fix some of the biggest issues i have with the standard cleric, though i'd still like to see more versatility.

i think the number of spells/day is fine. i think that the number of domains is fine. but, i do think that there needs to be a manner in which the cleric can be more versatile (by having a wider range of spells).

maybe he can spontaneously convert spells of an appropriate level to domain spells from his daily-chosen domain. maybe he only gets three domains, but they are all spells that he can spontaneously cast from converted spells.

or maybe he gets more non-domain spells, but they are all utility/general purpose spells from a severely altered list.

and maybe this class could have a mechanic by which players really do create their own domains so long as they are thematically appropriate to the god/philosophy/energy/etc (and associated domains) that they are worshipping, so that someone that wants the "fire," "smoke," "cinders," "hell," and "burning" domains could have them. i mean, it's just making a list of spells and a minor flavorful ability after all. you'd just have to come up with a template for the minor abilities, and the players could make their own lists as they see fit.

i think people need to chill out and broaden their horizons a bit. don't get so caught up in making sure that the whole world works according to your personal dogmas, especially about things like homebrewed D&D material.

[NeoSeraphi]

How many spells of each level does the Favored Soul know? I'm away from books, but I would have expected it to be the same as a Sorcerer. I'm seeing the merit in changing the spellcasting to spontaneous though, and will do so.


I'm away from my book as well, but I believe that the Favored Soul ends with 53 spells known as opposed to the sorcerer's 34 (ignoring 0 level spells because they're not important)

[Ziegander]

whoa. chill out, people. you guys are coming off a lot more hostile toward ziegander than i think you realize.

If I seemed defensive it's probably more because I was legitimately confused about the concerns that were brought to my attention. I assumed that people would be concerned that the class was still far too powerful. The concerns I got were just nothing I had anticipated. I wasn't sure how to respond, to be honest.


The suggestion of lowering the Cleric's BaB is neat and simple: The BaB is the source of most of the Cleric's system abuse.

For example, this is one of the concerns I've gotten. I don't know how to respond to that. You obviously believe that very strongly, Dryad, but you're simply mistaken.


case and point. even the primordial fire god has other hobbies. if you were in my game worshipping kossuth and wanted only fire spells, i'd be more than happy to dig up obscure fire-related domains and homebrew my own to fit your character's obsessive personality.

Thank you.


dark sun's clerics are entirely different than standard D&D's; this is akin to saying that you can't make a believable dark sun bard with the canon bard class or its derivative fixes. and i would agree with you there––no you couldn't... you'd need to go to dark sun.

I knew that Dark Sun Bards were entirely different than normal Bards, so when he mentioned that Dark Sun Clerics all specialize in one of the elements I assumed that their mechanics were also different. It's good to know I was on the right track.


it does match his definition of a fix, and it does fix some of the biggest issues i have with the standard cleric, though i'd still like to see more versatility.

Versatility is exactly what I want to fix with this version of the Cleric. I feel I've struck upon a fair balance. The Cleric's ability to prepare entirely new spells every day from a list of hundreds of spells is outright travesty. What I have done is given the class more spells known than a Sorcerer, but with less absolute control over which spells they know. On top of that, the Cleric has better BAB, better hp, casting in armor, and more class features, and so the Cleric gets fewer spells per day. That seems balanced against the Sorcerer to me, if a little more powerful still.


maybe he can spontaneously convert spells of an appropriate level to domain spells from his daily-chosen domain.

This is a very, very intriguing idea. It would make the class yet more powerful, but if they had the ability to change out those 10 spells that they get over 20 levels at the beginning of each day, that would give them quite a bit of versatility. Perhaps too much, but perhaps not (likely not with the Tier 3 version).

My thought:

Prayer
At 1st level, a Cleric chooses a specific time of the day, usually associated with some daily event, to set aside for prayer. A Cleric that does not pray at their chosen time suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and to caster level until which time she is able to pray. This penalty increases by -2 for every 24 hours the Cleric goes without praying. If her caster level is reduced to 0 in this way, the Cleric may not cast spells. Her time in prayer requires 1 hour of uninterrupted Concentration.

When praying, a Cleric often asks for guidance from whatever spirituality motivates her. If she does, starting at 2nd level, she may request additional power to add a single spell per two Cleric levels from the Cleric spell list to her spells known of a spell level she is able to cast. She may not add more than one spell per spell level in this way. These additional spells are removed from her list of spells known the next time she is scheduled to pray whether she prays at that time or not.



and maybe this class could have a mechanic by which players really do create their own domains so long as they are thematically appropriate to the god/philosophy/energy/etc (and associated domains) that they are worshipping, so that someone that wants the "fire," "smoke," "cinders," "hell," and "burning" domains could have them. i mean, it's just making a list of spells and a minor flavorful ability after all. you'd just have to come up with a template for the minor abilities, and the players could make their own lists as they see fit.

This is something I've been thinking over, trying to come up with mechanics for, but I have no idea how I'd come up with something streamlined and customizable enough to make it work. If you've got any ideas, anyone, even for a similar concept, please let me know, because I'd be interested in offering that mechanic.


I'm away from my book as well, but I believe that the Favored Soul ends with 53 spells known as opposed to the sorcerer's 34 (ignoring 0 level spells because they're not important)

That's pretty surprising. I don't know why they'd give the Favored Soul so many more spells known that the Sorcerer, I mean, other than the usual, "We love divine casters and so we give them way more bennies than arcanes," thing that seems to happen.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's pretty surprising. I don't know why they'd give the Favored Soul so many more spells known that the Sorcerer, I mean, other than the usual, "We love divine casters and so we give them way more bennies than arcanes," thing that seems to happen.

Because by the time Complete Divine came out, it was pretty well established that the sorcerer was so incredibly sub par to the wizard that they decided not to make the same mistake with the favored soul.

[Dryad]

but you're simply mistaken.
No, you.
See; that road doesn't bring us anything.

My concern with this build is: You can still be overpowered, but you lose your versatility. You'll lose the versatility anyway, so you should pick your domains with care in order to get the most bang for your buck. You'll be a one-trick pony until you can fling Miracles around, and you still need to prepare your spells, making even your one trick somewhat hazardous in case your spell line-up goes wrong.

The Cleric class already suffered from not being able to do anything but whack people and cast spells that were far too powerful. Much like the Wizard and Sorcerer, they have no defining class features of themselves, but that's okay, apparently, because their spells are so powerful. Well; it's not okay. It makes the classes empty, void, uncharacteristic and bland.
Your idea of five domains (so five domain powers) remedy that somewhat... But not that much. As I mentioned before, quite a few of those domain powers are bonus class skills, for which the Cleric simply doesn't receive the skill points, while other domain powers are severely underwhelming .../day abilities. Nice, and a good boost, but nothing but a boost. A proxy-potion, at best.

So the class suffers in two ways: The actual power (and cleric abuse) is not remedied by this fix at all. Clercizillas will still be able to exist, and remote city-bomb clerics are still able to exist. Buff-bots are less likely to exist, because you won't know specifically which buffs will be useful when you first create your character (so it's much safer to go Zilla, and grab as many buffs and heals as you can for yourself).
The versatility is completely lost. And no; versatility was not the seat of the Cleric's power, but it was at least fun to have some.
Let's put it this way:

Cleric with versatility:
-Medium BaB, medium HD, medium armour + good buffs = good melee combatant. I can choose to forego buffs and healing in favour of support, if I so please.
-Full spell list, but little direct damage spells = Mediocre Blaster Caster. Get some spell slots that can't be filled by blasting = Mediocre support.
-Good healing, restoration and support spells = good support. Can fill some slots with crowd control. Not completely useless in a fight; at least, unlike the arcane casters, the cleric can still hit people.

Cleric without versatility:
-Medium BaB, medium HD, medium armour +good buffs: Good melee combatant. Keep some heals on the side, and this is the safest bet ever.
-Limited spell list, limited blasting ability: Probably not that good a blaster, with many known spells having nothing to do with blasting at all. So probably not going there.
-Good healing and probably restoration spells, but lacking support/crowd control because a single spell simply cannot be used in many situations. = Less than Mediocre support.

In other words: Clerics should find domains that work mainly with melee and some healing, find a deity that fits the picture, and go Clericzilla.
Power lost? None. Versatility lost? Lots. Problems solved? That depends... I think you've created an additional problem with this fix.


i'd be more than happy to dig up obscure fire-related domains and homebrew my own to fit your character's obsessive personality.
I disagree with this philosophy on the basis that homebrew itself is a sign that the game-designers didn't get things right. It's the drive to rectify things (and is, as such, extremely biased, which leads to many homebrew's overly bizarre levels of power).
The given domains should actually be enough. Artificially adding fire domains that aren't fire domains but 'Spirit of the Silvery Orange Flame' domains are just... Meh. The Fire domain should suffice in that sort of thing. Should. If it doesn't, and you have to make up Fire domains that are not 'Fire' domains, then something is wrong.

Also, while deities have hobbies, deities are usually very focussed indeed. Look at the many religions of the world. Most deities have only one, maybe two, aspects. Even YHWH, the judeo-christeo-muslim deity, only has one aspect: The Father. As such, the 'domains' would be Justice, Creation and possibly Healing.
Hestia, however, would only have the domains Home-ec and Cooking, since her Aspect is the god of housekeeping/home/hearth.
So yes, Deities are quite focussed on a single aspect, and a believer in such a deity would probably try to emphasise that deific aspect as the focus of her belief, the centre of her being, and the pinnacle of her existence. That aspect we be paramount to her.
Saying you're a Priest of YHWH, and devote your life to knitting because YHWH made everything, so also wool, and that makes knitting somehow holy because YHWH might like knitting himself is a bit... Ehm... Strange, wouldn't you think?

Edit: My suggestion would be to create your own Cleric spell list (besides the domains) in which you decide which spells belong and which should be outlawed.
Then give the Cleric 1 additional bonus spell known per level (obviously, this spell much be of a spell level the cleric can cast). The benefit is twofold: It grants that much more versatility, and allows the Cleric to get something new every level, which defeats the Cleric's sense of dead levels.

[Ziegander]

My concern with this build is: You can still be overpowered, but you lose your versatility.

Bringing the class from Tier 1 to Tier 2. Which is my stated, upfront, intention. Compare the Wizard to the Sorcerer.


Your idea of five domains (so five domain powers) remedy that somewhat... But not that much. As I mentioned before, quite a few of those domain powers are bonus class skills, for which the Cleric simply doesn't receive the skill points, while other domain powers are severely underwhelming .../day abilities. Nice, and a good boost, but nothing but a boost. A proxy-potion, at best.

You are critiquing my work without having read my work. When you incorrectly mentioned this before I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt and time to double-check, but you still haven't read my work. That's insulting, frankly.

I have changed the Cleric's casting from prepared to spontaneous, having been convinced by you and I said I was making the change several posts ago. The Domain Powers of this Cleric "fix" do not work the way you think they do. They never did. I haven't changed the way I wrote the Domain Powers since I posted them; they were one of the bigger changes from the get go. You should read how they now work before you discuss what they do.


So the class suffers in two ways: The actual power (and cleric abuse) is not remedied by this fix at all. Clercizillas will still be able to exist, and remote city-bomb clerics are still able to exist.

Just like the Sorcerer is still able to wield REAL COSMIC POWER and break the game in half, only he can't do it in quite so many different ways as a Wizard. The goal was to bump the Cleric from Tier 1 to Tier 2. That's why "fix" is in quotations, and always has been. I knew from the get go that most people wouldn't consider that a fix. That's also why I provided the Tier 3 version of the class, which is the same class only without 8th and 9th level spells.


I think you've created an additional problem with this fix.

Please elaborate.


My suggestion would be to create your own Cleric spell list (besides the domains) in which you decide which spells belong and which should be outlawed.

That goes against the grain of the goals I set out to accomplish. Making players learn a new Cleric list of spells, forcing them to cross-reference my list every time they want to pick up a new spell, that's exactly what I don't want to do.

[wayfare]

I am using something very similar in a game I am currently running, and it really does wonders for cleric power levels. I allow fewer domains, so an average player caps out a Tier 3, and an optimiser can usually squeeze into Tier 2. But in practice, I can say that concepts like this work for RP heavy games -- particularly those that require that the domains follow a common theme.

Good job.

[Fako]

I like this fix - I have players in my group who have been wanting to play a cleric, but have shied away due to the sheer number of options (the new player's curse :smalltongue:), so I'll see if I can get some mileage out of this fix. I'll admit that I was a bit leery of it when it was still a prepared caster, but it seems to be much improved by the changes you've made.

As far as the elements go, I have an idea on that: Instead of picking 5 domains for their list, automatically give them their chosen element and let them pick 2 (maybe 3) domains. Then allow them to fill the holes with spells of their choice from the cleric spell list, with the crux being that they MUST have the chosen element as a descriptor for the spell. As far as the missing domain powers go, you can add a few element-themed ones that are not tied to a specific domain that the elemental cleric can choose from, that way the chassis remains the same, but the cleric is given more of an emphasis on the specific element of choice. I have one idea for an ability... let's see if it makes sense:

Divine Flames:
The cleric's spells ignore the first 5 points of fire resistance that a creature has. At cleric 5, it increases to 10. At cleric 10, it increases to 20 and treats fire immune creatures as if they had Fire Resistance 50. At cleric 15, it bypasses all Fire Resistance and treats fire immunity as Fire Resistance 30. At cleric 20, it bypasses Fire Immunity, and any creature without Fire Immunity takes damage as if they had Fire Vulnerability.

[Ziegander]

Does anyone have suggestions for me for the Domain Powers for the Drow, Envy, Gnome, Greed, Halfling, Hatred, Hunger, and Madness domains?