How bad is Energy Drain? Are all 9ths like this?

[Snowbluff]

Ok, I love negative levels, due to their nature as an all-inclusive debuff.

Now here is the problems: Energy Drain sucks. 9th lvl for 2d4 -lvls.

With an 8th lvl spell, twinned Enervation, you get 2d4 -lvls

With a 6th lvl spell, split ray Enervation (yes, PHB says it's a ray), you get 2d4 -lvls.


Now image Assay Resistance (always should be up), maybe Spell Pen Necro
(I am a Dread Necro), and Arcane Thesis: Energy Drain (Did mention I love -lvls?)? You could easily stack some serious Meta on this spell! Why would I ever cast Energy Drain?

[NeoSeraphi]

People cast energy drain not to slay targets, but to weaken targets. Energy drain is for when you want the target to actually walk away, and then 24 hours later, lose a bunch of levels. With a DC 19+mod saving throw, that Fortitude save is not going to happen for most characters with class levels. You can strip away a fighter's iterative attack and weaken the rest because of lower BAB, you can take away feats, and skill points, and spells. Suddenly, the king's right hand man is no longer the man he used to be, but he's still there. So when you invade the kingdom, his greatest guardian can't put up much of a fight.

Sure, you could have killed him off when you met him in the bar. But then the king would have just replaced him with an equally strong man. And what would you have accomplished then?

[Ravens_cry]

Action economy when such metamagic is not available due to book restrictions? Also, it has the potential to be permanent, Enervation doesn't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm). From a meta perspective that is more of a PC issue, but still important for recurring NPC if the DM plays fair.

[Ernir]

Energy Drain is that bad, if you ask me.
No, not all 9th level spells are like that. Have you taken a look at Shapechange yet?

I should mention that I consider de-leveling a very minor benefit. If I fight something, I want the opposition to die (usually). Something that is only a benefit if the primary objective fails isn't a very good option, IMO.

[nyarlathotep]

Energy Drain is that bad, if you ask me.
No, not all 9th level spells are like that. Have you taken a look at Shapechange yet?

I should mention that I consider de-leveling a very minor benefit. If I fight something, I want the opposition to die (usually). Something that is only a benefit if the primary objective fails isn't a very good option, IMO.

Usually if you're using enervation or energy drain you're trying to set it up so that they die from negative levels alone.

[Elitarismo]

Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?

[Mando Knight]

I should mention that I consider de-leveling a very minor benefit. If I fight something, I want the opposition to die (usually). Something that is only a benefit if the primary objective fails isn't a very good option, IMO.

Negative levels are fairly powerful if you know when to use them. Spellcasters especially dislike negative levels, since if you hit them with enough they won't have the spells to fight back. Since a negative level drains your attack bonus and saving throws faster than most classes gain them, it can be a relatively easy way to ensure that the next spell is successful.

[Ravens_cry]

Quick rules question, what happens to spells already up that you can't cast again after been drained?

[Ernir]

Usually if you're using enervation or energy drain you're trying to set it up so that they die from negative levels alone.
Negative levels are fairly powerful if you know when to use them. Spellcasters especially dislike negative levels, since if you hit them with enough they won't have the spells to fight back. Since a negative level drains your attack bonus and saving throws faster than most classes gain them, it can be a relatively easy way to ensure that the next spell is successful.

That's not the issue. I'm not saying negative levels are a bad thing to deal out, I'm saying (or at least trying to say) that relying on the advantage Energy Drain has over enervation, which is that it has a chance of permanently draining levels, is planning to fail.

[Knaight]

That's not the issue. I'm not saying negative levels are a bad thing to deal out, I'm saying (or at least trying to say) that relying on the advantage Energy Drain has over enervation, which is that it has a chance of permanently draining levels, is planning to fail.

Not necessarily. Its more like low scale guerilla tactics. Hit and run, hit and run, so on and so forth. Which works much better when the hits actually do permanent damage.

[Piggy Knowles]

Twin and Split Ray didn't exist when Energy Drain was first printed. It's pretty meh, and definitely low on the power spectrum compared to a lot of other 9th level wizard spells, but it's not *that* terrible in context. There are better ways to kill or disable your opponent, but if you're into that sort of thing, maybe Energy Drain has some style.

After all, every level has its hits and its misses. Just because Rope Trick is a way better method of protecting your party at night than Secure Shelter doesn't mean that all 4th level spells are a bust, or that it's still not cool to pull out the Secure Shelter every now and then to impress the locals.

[Kurald Galain]

Not necessarily. Its more like low scale guerilla tactics.

You use low scale guerilla tactics at low levels, not at level seventeen.

[shadow_archmagi]

Quick rules question, what happens to spells already up that you can't cast again after been drained?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking about a buff that's already on you, like if you get hit by Energy Drain after casting Greater Mage Armor? The mage armor stays on you, just like it would if you had cast Bull's Strength on the fighter.

[BlackestOfMages]

as stated, when energy drain was first printed, you couldn't meta another spell to match the same effect for cheaper. so it was the most effective way to drain levels. still, there was better plans for what to do.

as to the "are all 9th level spells this bad?" the answer is a resound: Hell No!

let's look. how much can I break the game with gate summonging creates that can cast gate, then repeating this until I can do something slightly insane such as animate the planet...

or just shapechange alone

even the less obvious ones are still hilarious. disjunction pisses of everyone who's not you very effectively, time stop gives you breathing room to a) undo the other jackasses' disjunction/set up some defences b) create something very, very very heavy above the target and rename yourself wiley c) other funny time based things.

meteor swarm hurts, even if it is rather obvious...

and, depending on how much attention the DM is paying to your wording, wish is so much fun :smallbiggrin:

and this is just in the basic stuff :D

[Knaight]

You use low scale guerilla tactics at low levels, not at level seventeen.

Attrition warfare then. Involving use of plane hopping and such.

[Runestar]

No point really, if you have the necessary metamagic feats. It is like how scorching ray is for most part better than melf's acid arrow, or polar ray sucks compared to orb spells. Some spells just aren't that great.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking about a buff that's already on you, like if you get hit by Energy Drain after casting Greater Mage Armor? The mage armor stays on you, just like it would if you had cast Bull's Strength on the fighter.
Yes, that is exactly what I was asking. Thank you.

[Elitarismo]

as stated, when energy drain was first printed, you couldn't meta another spell to match the same effect for cheaper. so it was the most effective way to drain levels. still, there was better plans for what to do.

Enervation + Quickened Enervation. 4th and 8th vs 9th... that's still a better deal.

[deuxhero]

Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?

Big T obviously :P

[Eldan]

Enervation + Quickened Enervation. 4th and 8th vs 9th... that's still a better deal.

Or Maximized Enervation. Four levels, vs. an average of 5.

[Keld Denar]

Attrition warfare then. Involving use of plane hopping and such.

Anything capable of Plane Hopping is likely to either be outright immune to negative levels (by virtue of some combination of spells, items, or abilities, or even feats), or has access to other folks who can remove the negative levels without fear of failing the save within 24 hours. Negative levels becoming permanent are pretty much a non-item for any group above 10, and remotely resourcesful group at any level above 5-7 or so.

[Jack_Simth]

Quick rules question, what happens to spells already up that you can't cast again after been drained?By RAW: Zilch. Your caster level goes down, you lose spell slots... but spells that are already cast are not affected.


Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?
If your DM uses stock critters? Lots of the non-supported Brutes in Core (also a lot of the skillmonkies and casters).

CR 16-20 from the SRD:
Aboleth Mage
Hound Archon Hero (Hound Archon Paladin-11)
Balor
Marilith
Cornugon
Pit Fiend
formian queen
Frost Giant Jarl (Frost Gian Blackguard-8)
The Tarrasque (He's immune to Energy Drain, but not negative levels, oddly. You'll need a rather lot of them to do much, though.)

[The_Snark]

Metamagic-enhanced Enervation does tend to be better than a plain vanilla Energy Drain. However, if you have some means of applying metamagic to Energy Drain then it becomes viable again.

Usually impossible outside of epic levels, but worth pointing out.


Usually if you're using enervation or energy drain you're trying to set it up so that they die from negative levels alone.
Not really. Debuffing with negative levels is a lot easier and more efficient than trying to outright kill them. Dropping five or six negative levels onto a monster probably won't kill it at the levels we're talking about, but it will slap a -5 penalty to attacks and saves and skill checks and take away a bit of health and suck away some of the monster's best spells, if it has any. And there's no save. This is why people like Enervation.

If you can manage to stack so many negative levels on a monster that you kill it outright, that's obviously good, but a lot of monsters have HD far in excess of their challenge rating. You'll likely run out of spells before you can enervate an elder earth elemental to death.

[NNescio]

Metamagic-enhanced Enervation does tend to be better than a plain vanilla Energy Drain. However, if you have some means of applying metamagic to Energy Drain then it becomes viable again.

Usually impossible outside of epic levels, but worth pointing out.

If you can apply metamagic to Energy Drain, you're better off applying more metamagic to Enervation.

[Runestar]

Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?

That's the funny thing. People like to say that at high-epic levels, monsters are pretty immune (or have the resources to make themselves immune) to all these effects, but however I look at it, the means of accomplishing these seem few and far in between, and certainly not viable for every monster out there.

Not to mention that in core, death-ward granting items are fairly rare (I only know of soulfire in BOED and death-ward armour property from MIC), plus a few odd feats here and there which grant limited resistance to negative levels.

So to your question, I would say pretty much any foe that isn't undead, constructs or a spellcaster. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

Last 24 hours only takes a persistent meta, with my fave spell Thesis(ed?), and max Incant, Practical Meta, you could easily tack another Meta on.

Still, might be easier just to cast Energy Drain at that point.

Anyway, I am fond of -lvls since I've given myself role of debuffer and filed control. I want to let other people have fun, too. Rather than wiping out the enemy singlehandedly.


Also, out of curiosity, how does a Twinspell Splitray Spell work? Would I get 4 Rays or 3?

[nedz]

Or Maximized Enervation. Four levels, vs. an average of 5.

Or Empowered Maximized Enervation 4-6 levels (average 5.25) vs. 2-8 levels (average 5) both 9th level, all core.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Or Empowered Maximized Enervation 4-6 levels (average 5.25) vs. 2-8 levels (average 5) both 9th level, all core.

Doesn't an empowered maximized enervation just deal a flat 6 negative levels? :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

No. Empowered + Maximized spell has a specific exception to the normal "apply in the most favorable order" rule. You take the maximum result of the roll plus half of the actual roll.

So 4 + (.5* 1d4).

Also, its MUCH easier to MM up Enervation than Energy Drain. You CAN Metamagic up a +0 net mod Energy Drain, which will deal a ton of negative levels. You don't have much wiggle room, though. With Enervation, you have 5 full levels of play before you reach the end of the rope. With just Arcane Thesis(Enervation) + Empower + Split Ray, you have a 6th level spell. You'd have to invest much more resources to Energy Drain to get the same thing and keep it at a 9th level spell.

Also, the fact that Enervation is a Ray (and thus eligiable for Split Ray by itself) is more favorable to Energy Drain's melee touch.

[Ernir]

Also, the fact that Enervation is a Ray (and thus eligiable for Split Ray by itself) is more favorable to Energy Drain's melee touch.
Energy Drain is a ray too. It inherits... pretty much everything but the duration and the number of levels from Enervation.

(But the other arguments apply, and Energy Drain still sucks.)

[Shades of Gray]

What happens if you get level drained while casting a concentration duration spell? Can you continue concentrating on it even though you no longer "know" the spell?

[Jack_Simth]

What happens if you get level drained while casting a concentration duration spell? Can you continue concentrating on it even though you no longer "know" the spell?
The spell is already cast at that point, so yes. You lose HP, but you don't technically take damage, so you could even potentially not need to make a Concentration check to keep Concentrating.

[NNescio]

Last 24 hours only takes a persistent meta, with my fave spell Thesis(ed?), and max Incant, Practical Meta, you could easily tack another Meta on.

Still, might be easier just to cast Energy Drain at that point.

Anyway, I am fond of -lvls since I've given myself role of debuffer and filed control. I want to let other people have fun, too. Rather than wiping out the enemy singlehandedly.

Two problems:

1) A range of close does not qualify as a fixed range.
2) Enervation technically* has an instantaneous duration, which is specifically prohibited by Persistent Spell.

(*Despite the wonky regains lost levels clause.)

[Snowbluff]

Energy Drain is a ray too. It inherits... pretty much everything but the duration and the number of levels from Enervation.

(But the other arguments apply, and Energy Drain still sucks.)

Where did you find a 11th lvl spell slot?


Two problems:

1) A range of close does not qualify as a fixed range.
2) Enervation technically* has an instantaneous duration, which is specifically prohibited by Persistent Spell.

(*Despite the wonky regains lost levels clause.)

Ok, wow. Still, proves how silly Energy Drain is. If Enervation wasn't Insta, then it would be straight up better to use all the time.

[ArcanistSupreme]

No. Empowered + Maximized spell has a specific exception to the normal "apply in the most favorable order" rule. You take the maximum result of the roll plus half of the actual roll.

So 4 + (.5* 1d4).

Huh. I have never seen that rule before. Source?

[candycorn]

Huh. I have never seen that rule before. Source?

The description for Maximize spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell).

[ArcanistSupreme]

The description for Maximize spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell).

So I swear I scrutinized that very link right before I posted. I guess I failed my spot check. :smallredface:

[Ernir]

Where did you find a 11th lvl spell slot?

I'm sorry, I don't follow. :smallconfused:

[ericgrau]

Well in core-only you can manage empowered maximized enervation at 8th level, which is almost as good. Not as good 24 hours later and takes 2 feats though. Outside of core, everything gets better.

Either way, vanilla or metamagicked enervation, they're great spells because there's no save and it sucks horribly to be hit even once. On average the target gets -5 to everything, loses all his best spells, etc. Load up on greater spell penetration or what not, just in case you face SR, and it's a great BBEG slayer. The second one pretty much ends it.


Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?
A divine only spell that lasts minutes and affects only one target? Plenty. Though some monsters are immune not all are, and the rest take multiple rounds to ward unless you're fighting nothing but divine casters. When something is immune to X, you simply cast Y until next fight, then cast X.

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. :smallconfused:

You can not, either through Sudden MM, or MM cost reduction (if it does not cost 0, it'll always cost at least one spell level), use a MM 9th lvl spell.

Unless Divine MM really works that way. I think that was errata'd too.

And I just realized I am talking to the wrong person. Some one else suggested I put MM on Energy Drain. :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

You can not, either through Sudden MM, or MM cost reduction (if it does not cost 0, it'll always cost at least one spell level), use a MM 9th lvl spell.


Arcane Thesis can reduce the cost to 0, and if you apply it after all your other reducers (using the stack in your favor rule) you can have +0 spell level.

[sreservoir]

You can not, either through Sudden MM, or MM cost reduction (if it does not cost 0, it'll always cost at least one spell level), use a MM 9th lvl spell.

Unless Divine MM really works that way. I think that was errata'd too.

And I just realized I am talking to the wrong person. Some one else suggested I put MM on Energy Drain. :smalltongue:

what, you can do that just fine.

[NNescio]

Also, (Greater) Metamagic Rods, for a core-only option.

[Snowbluff]

[QUOTE=Snowbluff;11922371]You can not, either through Sudden MM, or MM cost reduction (if it does not cost 0, it'll always cost at least one spell level), use a MM 9th lvl spell.
/QUOTE]

Arcane Thesis can reduce the cost to 0, and if you apply it after all your other reducers (using the stack in your favor rule) you can have +0 spell level.

Holy crap you are right! Same is true more max Incant, but not Practical Metamagic (which allows you to only lower it to as low as +1)

Well, I think I might get every single magic build I do for fun banned.

IN other news, Split Ray and Empower bot will cost +0 in these conditions. Any other MM that cost +2 or less that would be handy?

[Keld Denar]

Occular Spell in Lords of Madness. +2, and causes the spell to be stored in your eyes. Later, you release two rays of that spell. Its like Twin Spell, only with a slightly wierd action cost. Still, MM it up for extra doubling on your doubling.

[ericgrau]

^ Wear glasses before you twin spell your ocular spell and bring on the 4-eyes jokes.

[NeoSeraphi]

Technically, Arcane Thesis doesn't have a minimum of +0, which has driven everyone to wildly inappropriate measures of using it. (Energy Substitution, Cooperative Spell, and Sanctum Spell are all metamagic feats with a +0 adjustment, which Arcane Thesis, by RAW, makes -1 adjustments)

[Keld Denar]

That is true, under the caveat that the totall adjusted spell level can not be lower than the un-metamagiced spell. So if you had an Invisible Empowered Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis, it would be (2 -1 +1 =2) 2nd level. If you had an Invisible Energy Sub Cold Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis, it would NOT be a 0th level spell, however (2 -1 -1 = 2, since level can't go below 2).

The errata really clarifies exactly how the feat works.

[NeoSeraphi]

That is true, under the caveat that the totall adjusted spell level can not be lower than the un-metamagiced spell. So if you had an Invisible Empowered Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis, it would be (2 -1 +1 =2) 2nd level. If you had an Invisible Energy Sub Cold Scorching Ray with Arcane Thesis, it would NOT be a 0th level spell, however (2 -1 -1 = 2, since level can't go below 2).

The errata really clarifies exactly how the feat works.

Yes, that's very true. Still, it's very abusable.

[Garwain]

You could easily stack some serious Meta on this spell! Why would I ever cast Energy Drain?
Because you needed your feats for something else.

[Runestar]

OR just don't cast energy drain? Seriously, there are better 9th lv spells to use...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Better question: What are you fighting at 17th level on that does not have Death Ward or a similar effect?

Anything that isn't a Cleric, or anything you've dispelled?

He's a Dread necro. If it's undead, it belongs to him. Command Undead and Control Undead are fun things. Assuming he doesn't simply Rebuke/Command it. Other than Constructs, there's not a whole lot immune to negative levels.

[hex0]

IF it is a ray you can sneak attack with it, silly!:smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

IF it is a ray you can sneak attack with it, silly!:smallamused:

It only does negative energy damage, not more negative levels But yes, theoretically you could. However, I don't think he's got any sneak attack dice available to him.

[Jack_Simth]

You can not, either through Sudden MM, or MM cost reduction (if it does not cost 0, it'll always cost at least one spell level), use a MM 9th lvl spell.

Unless Divine MM really works that way. I think that was errata'd too.

And I just realized I am talking to the wrong person. Some one else suggested I put MM on Energy Drain. :smalltongue:Yes, Divine Metamagic really does work that way. You spend 1+N turning attempts (N being the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat in question) to apply a specific metamagic feat (chosen when you take Divine Metamagic) that you already know (thanks to Errata) to a spell without adding to the spell level. At the time of casting, not preparation.

[Qwertystop]

...or that it's still not cool to pull out the Secure Shelter every now and then to impress the locals.

Or on top of a Wall of Force, to then drop on someone.

[Jack_Simth]

Or on top of a Wall of Force, to then drop on someone.
Walls of Force must be vertical, and Conjoured stuff must be supported properly. Could use a Forcecage, though.

[Douglas]

The Tarrasque (He's immune to Energy Drain, but not negative levels, oddly. You'll need a rather lot of them to do much, though.)
I'm pretty sure that immunity is meant to be to the general special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)/condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#energyDrained) category, not the specific spell. So yes, Big T is immune to negative levels.

[Runestar]

I'm pretty sure that immunity is meant to be to the general special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)/condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#energyDrained) category, not the specific spell. So yes, Big T is immune to negative levels.

Isn't this a moot point, considering how his carapace will automatically deflect any enervations or energy drains flying its way? :smallconfused:

[Douglas]

Isn't this a moot point, considering how his carapace will automatically deflect any enervations or energy drains flying its way? :smallconfused:
There are other ways to inflict negative levels, so no it isn't. In fact, your point is another argument in favor of my interpretation, as there wouldn't be any point to a specific immunity to a single spell that's already covered by a more general immunity.

[Qwertystop]

Walls of Force must be vertical, and Conjoured stuff must be supported properly. Could use a Forcecage, though.

Ah... Well, it would be supported if you sued a lot of walls of force, or Forcecage, as you said. My point is that one thing Secure Shelter does that Rope trick doesn't do: Housebombing!

[Keld Denar]

House Bombing
Conjuration
Level: Wizard of Oz 9
Components: V, S, AF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: REALLY LONG
Target: 1 witch
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell conjures a house from the material realm which immediately falls upon target witch, striking her dead. Make a ranged touch attack against one witch anywhere on your plane. If the attack is successful, the witch is slain, no saving throw. If the target witch is wicked, or from the east, apply a cumulative +2 bonus on the ranged touch attack to hit with this spell.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The sad (or awesome) part is that it is a good spell in pathfinder where Witch is a base class.

[NeoSeraphi]

There are other ways to inflict negative levels, so no it isn't. In fact, your point is another argument in favor of my interpretation, as there wouldn't be any point to a specific immunity to a single spell that's already covered by a more general immunity.

He's not immune to the energy drain spell, he's immune to the energy drain supernatural ability of vampires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) and succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm).

[legomaster00156]

Enervation + Quickened Enervation. 4th and 8th vs 9th... that's still a better deal.

Which requires two spell slots, instead of one, and allows for two saves, instead of one.:smallannoyed:

[Piggy Knowles]

Which requires two spell slots, instead of one, and allows for two saves, instead of one.:smallannoyed:

Very true, except that Enervation doesn't have a save. But it does check for SR twice, which is a pretty big deal at high levels, especially if we're talking Core when there was no Assay Resistance.

EDIT: It also requires to ranged touch attack rolls, which people seem to assume will be trivial, but isn't always. On the other hand, that's two chances to break a Mirror Image!

[NNescio]

Very true, except that Enervation doesn't have a save. But it does check for SR twice, which is a pretty big deal at high levels, especially if we're talking Core when there was no Assay Resistance.

Of course, it also gets two chances to punch through SR (for half the overall effect each), so it more or less evens out.

And an 9th-level slot is more valuable than an 8th + 4th level slot anyway.

[tyckspoon]

EDIT: It also requires to ranged touch attack rolls, which people seem to assume will be trivial, but isn't always. On the other hand, that's two chances to break a Mirror Image!

On monsters, it usually is. Class leveled/gear wearing opponents can more readily have non-armor sources of AC, but for most monsters the only thing they have going to Touch is their Dex mod, which can be countered by your own Dex mod. So you're up on the attack by whatever your BAB is plus any other miscellaneous attack roll bonuses; you shouldn't have to roll higher than about 5 for most anything, and if it's one of the very common enemies that have a Touch AC of only the base 10 (or even lower thanks to Size penalties) you'll easily be in anything-but-1 range.

[ericgrau]

Only at high levels against big monsters. At low-medium levels it's far from trivial without improved precise shot. At higher levels the average touch AC seems to stay 10. In fact it scales slightly (to maybe 13-14), it's just that the 6 AC dragons are bringing down the average. It gets easy later, and trivial against some foes (who are big and thus more likely to have SR), but never trivial against all foes. That said, by level 17 the spells are often a good option, and like I said when they aren't you cast something else which is a good option now (but maybe not later).

At low levels with a pitiful 1/2 level BAB + dex vs. cover and/or in-melee bonuses it's often a gamble to even hit 10 AC.

[Piggy Knowles]

On monsters, it usually is. Class leveled/gear wearing opponents can more readily have non-armor sources of AC, but for most monsters the only thing they have going to Touch is their Dex mod, which can be countered by your own Dex mod. So you're up on the attack by whatever your BAB is plus any other miscellaneous attack roll bonuses; you shouldn't have to roll higher than about 5 for most anything, and if it's one of the very common enemies that have a Touch AC of only the base 10 (or even lower thanks to Size penalties) you'll easily be in anything-but-1 range.

That's odd, because my experience with high levels is that almost every single monster in the SRD has some form of casting or SLAs that give them some extra defensive abilities. Seriously, it's all outsiders with a ton of at-will SLAs (and sometimes cleric or wizard casting, like the hardcore angels), dragons (who are notorious for having lots of magic items and get sorcerer casting at higher levels), and creatures that have been advanced by adding cleric or wizard levels (like the Aboleth Mage and the Mummy Lord).

And if you're a low BAB class that hasn't done anything to boost it, with an average Dex, then even the +2 boost a monster can get from Magic Circle Against Whatever actually makes a significant difference - especially if your schtick is to metamagic the heck out of a single spell and blow your high level slots on one big, powerful ranged touch debuff.

[Aquillion]

What happens if you get level drained while casting a concentration duration spell? Can you continue concentrating on it even though you no longer "know" the spell?What do you mean? A negative level doesn't make you cease to "know" a spell, except by making you expend one of your prepared spells as if you'd cast it.

If you hit me with Enervation while I'm concentrating on a spell, by definition, it will never take that spell away from me, because it only takes away a currently-prepared spell, and one that I'm concentrating on has already been cast.

Don't think of it as reducing my level. That's the conceptual idea, but negative levels do a few very specific things, and nothing else.

You get:

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Note that the -1 affective level is extremely narrow in scope. Eg. suppose I'm a 5th level wizard with a high enough Int to have multiple third-level spells. If you hit me with four negative levels, I lose one of those third level spells. Only one. I can still cast all the others, as well as all of my second level spells, even though I've only got an effective level of 1 for die rolls and calculations that rely on level. I can still cast Fireball; it's just that my fireball will only do 1d6 damage.


Which requires two spell slots, instead of one, and allows for two saves, instead of one.:smallannoyed:If you mean spell resistance and hit rolls rather than saves (neither spell allows for a save), that's not really a fair criticism. It divides its effect between two sets of rolls as opposed to Energy Drain's one set of rolls, but making one of those only protects you from part of the effect -- the overall result is to make the two spells more "reliable", with less variance. You'll be less likely to completely whiff off of one fluke roll, but will also be less likely to score a lucky full hit on something you normally wouldn't. Overall it doesn't make a big difference.

Of course, Energy Drain does have the mild advantage of being better against spell resistance purely by virtue of being higher level, but that's not really worth the higher slot... and if you're up against something with significant spell resistance, you shouldn't be using spells that allow SR at all.

(Or you could go outside of core and use Split Ray using just one level 6 slot, or maximized split rays, or maximized empowered twinned split rays with metamagic reduction / rods / etc... Enervation is one of the gold standard spells for 'you die now' metamagic abuse IIRC.)

[ericgrau]

SR depends on caster level not spell level. Even in core greater spell penetration can give you a decent shot at beating SR, though it's not ideal. Especially since you want to tag BBEGs with a spell like this, so they're probably higher level than you.

[MesiDoomstalker]

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Note that the -1 affective level is extremely narrow in scope. Eg. suppose I'm a 5th level wizard with a high enough Int to have multiple third-level spells. If you hit me with four negative levels, I lose four of those third level spells. Only one. I can still cast all the others, as well as all of my second level spells, even though I've only got an effective level of 1 for die rolls and calculations that rely on level. I can still cast Fireball; it's just that my fireball will only do 1d6 damage.

Fixed that for you. The effects you listed is for a single negative level. Thus, even if you take a lump sum at once from a single effect, you suffer the culmative effects of all of them, thus you lose the same number of spells as negative levels. In the above example, thats 4 spells. First taking off your 3rd level spells then dipping into your 2nd, and heaven forbid, your 1st.

[Aquillion]

Fixed that for you. The effects you listed is for a single negative level. Thus, even if you take a lump sum at once from a single effect, you suffer the culmative effects of all of them, thus you lose the same number of spells as negative levels. In the above example, thats 4 spells. First taking off your 3rd level spells then dipping into your 2nd, and heaven forbid, your 1st.Oh, right, that's true. But the point is, I don't automatically lose all my third-level spells -- if I was hit by just one negative level, I could still cast Fireball, I'd just do 4d6 damage with it.

[RecklessAbaddon]

If you can apply metamagic to Energy Drain, you're better off applying more metamagic to Enervation.

unless the method you use to metamagic energy drain can't be used to something that already has metamagic applied.

I only say this because I'm playing a lvl 20 ultimate Magus and Metamagic with 9th level spells is just awesome. Twincast Energy Drain + Quickened Energy Drain anyone?

I mean it's still not as fantastic as other things you can do, but just because there are better 9th level spells doesn't mean it's bad. And just because you can do the same thing by using metamagic found in splat books doesn't mean that the spell it's better than is worse. You only get 7 feats(ish) at level 20. You think because you can cast a lower power spell and add resources (a higher spell slot and the use of that feat or the use of a rod) is really a bad thing? Because the ability to just go "energy drain" is pretty awesome in my opinion. But maybe I'm just to in love with my Ultimate Magus.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, right, that's true. But the point is, I don't automatically lose all my third-level spells -- if I was hit by just one negative level, I could still cast Fireball, I'd just do 4d6 damage with it.

Right, but enervation is 1d4 negative levels. Before metamagics. Even if it doesn't kill you, it can keep you from casting the spells that make me dead.

[Doug Lampert]

Fixed that for you. The effects you listed is for a single negative level. Thus, even if you take a lump sum at once from a single effect, you suffer the culmative effects of all of them, thus you lose the same number of spells as negative levels. In the above example, thats 4 spells. First taking off your 3rd level spells then dipping into your 2nd, and heaven forbid, your 1st.

You missed that he hasn't lost ANY caster levels, he's lost character levels not class levels, so the level 5 wizard drained 4 times who still has a fireball throws it at caster level 5. If the level 5 wizard throws a fireball he does 5d6.

Note 4d6, not 1d6. It doesn't matter how many levels he's been drained because CASTER LEVEL is not Character Level, and he's only lost character levels.

[tyckspoon]

Note 4d6, not 1d6. It doesn't matter how many levels he's been drained because CASTER LEVEL is not Character Level, and he's only lost character levels.

Caster level is defined as your levels in the casting class. Other stuff can change it, but that base number is directly determined by your class levels. It is changed by a negative level.

[NNescio]

unless the method you use to metamagic energy drain can't be used to something that already has metamagic applied.

I only say this because I'm playing a lvl 20 ultimate Magus and Metamagic with 9th level spells is just awesome. Twincast Energy Drain + Quickened Energy Drain anyone?

I mean it's still not as fantastic as other things you can do, but just because there are better 9th level spells doesn't mean it's bad. And just because you can do the same thing by using metamagic found in splat books doesn't mean that the spell it's better than is worse. You only get 7 feats(ish) at level 20. You think because you can cast a lower power spell and add resources (a higher spell slot and the use of that feat or the use of a rod) is really a bad thing? Because the ability to just go "energy drain" is pretty awesome in my opinion. But maybe I'm just to in love with my Ultimate Magus.

....except that you can't augment an Energy Drain.


...The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed 1/2 your class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 1st-level spells. A 10th-level ultimate magus can affect spells of 5th level or lower.

[NeoSeraphi]

The SRD says "-1 on all checks and calculations made that use a creature's effective level." The wizard class says "A wizard's caster level is equal to his or her class level." So yes, when calculating a wizard's caster level as he casts a spell, his effective class level is decreased by the number of negative levels he has.


On a different note, here's something I did not know.


If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount.

Using the rules in Complete Arcane for weaponlike spells, along with this quote from the SRD...you can crit with energy drain and take away 4d4 negative levels. What are the rules for cou'de'gracing with a weaponlike spell?

[Keld Denar]

Which is exactly the same as Initiator Level, Manifester Level, Meldshaper Level, Binder Level, etc. If a Swordsage12 gets hit by a negative level, his Searing Blade maneuver will only deal 2d6+11 damage, instead of 2d6+12.

[Snowbluff]

Very true, except that Enervation doesn't have a save. But it does check for SR twice, which is a pretty big deal at high levels, especially if we're talking Core when there was no Assay Resistance.

EDIT: It also requires to ranged touch attack rolls, which people seem to assume will be trivial, but isn't always. On the other hand, that's two chances to break a Mirror Image!


unless the method you use to metamagic energy drain can't be used to something that already has metamagic applied.

I only say this because I'm playing a lvl 20 ultimate Magus and Metamagic with 9th level spells is just awesome. Twincast Energy Drain + Quickened Energy Drain anyone?

I mean it's still not as fantastic as other things you can do, but just because there are better 9th level spells doesn't mean it's bad. And just because you can do the same thing by using metamagic found in splat books doesn't mean that the spell it's better than is worse. You only get 7 feats(ish) at level 20. You think because you can cast a lower power spell and add resources (a higher spell slot and the use of that feat or the use of a rod) is really a bad thing? Because the ability to just go "energy drain" is pretty awesome in my opinion. But maybe I'm just to in love with my Ultimate Magus.


....except that you can't augment an Energy Drain.

Not only that, I don't think you can't use Sudden Metamagic on it either.

[Doug Lampert]

The SRD says "-1 on all checks and calculations made that use a creature's effective level." The wizard class says "A wizard's caster level is equal to his or her class level." So yes, when calculating a wizard's caster level as he casts a spell, his effective class level is decreased by the number of negative levels he has.

The first quote is about effective level. Read your own text.

Nothing else that you quote ever mentions effective level.

The second one is about class level and caster level, NEITHER of which is effective level. A character's effective level is LA+RHD+class levels. This is not the same as either class level or caster level.

If a multiclass character losses effective levels which classes take the minus? You can't say, because the rules don't say, because the rules don't have the character lose class level at all.

DougL

[hex0]

It only does negative energy damage, not more negative levels But yes, theoretically you could. However, I don't think he's got any sneak attack dice available to him.

Spellwarp Sniper?

[sreservoir]

Not only that, I don't think you can't use Sudden Metamagic on it either.

no, sudden MM feats work fine. you have already been told this. please stop spreading misinformation.

[Douglas]

The first quote is about effective level. Read your own text.

Nothing else that you quote ever mentions effective level.

The second one is about class level and caster level, NEITHER of which is effective level. A character's effective level is LA+RHD+class levels. This is not the same as either class level or caster level.

If a multiclass character losses effective levels which classes take the minus? You can't say, because the rules don't say, because the rules don't have the character lose class level at all.

DougL
By that interpretation, that part of the penalty for negative levels would... cause you to gain more XP, and do absolutely nothing else. The idea of that being the intent of the rule boggles the mind.

If you're going to nitpick terminology like that, here's some more: LA+RHD+class levels is not "effective level" - it's "effective character level". That is at least as great a difference in terms as any you have suggested, so if we accept your argument then ECL must also be unaffected. That leaves, well, nothing at all to be affected by the penalty, which is obviously not the intent of the rule.

An alternative interpretation is that the type of level referred to is completely unspecified, and therefore it refers to all types of levels. Character level, class level, caster level, initiator level, manifester level, binder level - you name it, if it's a type of level then it's affected. As for which class takes the penalty for a multiclass character, that's simple - all of them do. This is, I believe, the generally accepted interpretation.

[candycorn]

By that interpretation, that part of the penalty for negative levels would... cause you to gain more XP, and do absolutely nothing else. The idea of that being the intent of the rule boggles the mind.

Would lower the damage that a craven character would do, since that's character level based.

Still, I lean towards the interpretation of "-1 effective level" being "-1 to all level types you have, not excluding initiator, caster, manifester, or the like".

[ericgrau]

Ya the line of reasoning a few posts up makes effective levels meaningless for absolutely everything. Most straightforward interpretation is if something is based on a level, then that number goes down, simple. If it doesn't use that kind of numerical wording or similar, it's not affected.

[RecklessAbaddon]

....except that you can't augment an Energy Drain.

Well, technically I could once I was ultimate magus lvl 18. But I get your point now. However since I'm going to be leveling UM only if we go until lvl 28 I'll be able to.

However I never read it that way, must of been wishful thinking. I thought that requirement was just for the spell slot. well poopie.

However you could still use a metamagic rod. But I really don't care enough to argue.

[ericgrau]

At epic levels you can metamagic energy drain. One shot, no save, enemy can barely do anything any more is nice. Except most epic things have SR. Epic spell penetration might help.

[Keld Denar]

If you progressed UM with Legacy Champion, you could technically use it to allow you to augment higher level spells. You'd have a tough time getting to 18 though.

[RecklessAbaddon]

If you progressed UM with Legacy Champion, you could technically use it to allow you to augment higher level spells. You'd have a tough time getting to 18 though.

My DM is willing to work with me over making epic level progression for UM.

He knows I'm fairly competent with the system, so my suggestions are included. Honestly I don't think it needs many changes though, most of their abilities already just progress per/x lvls. Like the metamagic being 1/2 CL, and the progression having a patern that seems to just skip at the 10's (not that i'm expecting it to go to far. Our liberal estimation for when the game will end is around lvl 24-25. We have also thought about doing a time warp where our characters our adventuring together before we got famous.

We were at the funeral of one of our cohorts (a paladin who became king) and me and the duskblade used out magic to provide pictures to the tales of our many great deeds. The 2 actual combat sessions so far I haven't even gotten to play, but this weekend is my first time to actually play him.



But anyways I agree with the prior points about comparing a spell from a source that came before the metamagic that makes it obsolete is a bad idea. If they made everything outright better. And to answer the other question, clearly not all 9th level spells are bad. Just look in the spell compendium+PHB. I'm pretty sure this thread is just about how bad 1 spell is. Which with an average of 5 lvls, I don't think it's much to laugh about. Not all spells are designed for combat encounters, nor should the value of said spells be based on how good they are in combat.

Shape stone has consistently been one of my favorite spells in combat and out of it. Using it to remove a door from a wall was the best part (we thought it was magically trapped because of runes around it, even though we were wrong we thought it was funny). And I used it to make a ladder to climb out of a pit trap with my Dwarf cleric. And to hide stuff (a demonic sword).

[Snowbluff]

My DM is willing to work with me over making epic level progression for UM.

He knows I'm fairly competent with the system, so my suggestions are included. Honestly I don't think it needs many changes though, most of their abilities already just progress per/x lvls. Like the metamagic being 1/2 CL, and the progression having a patern that seems to just skip at the 10's (not that i'm expecting it to go to far. Our liberal estimation for when the game will end is around lvl 24-25. We have also thought about doing a time warp where our characters our adventuring together before we got famous.

We were at the funeral of one of our cohorts (a paladin who became king) and me and the duskblade used out magic to provide pictures to the tales of our many great deeds. The 2 actual combat sessions so far I haven't even gotten to play, but this weekend is my first time to actually play him.



But anyways I agree with the prior points about comparing a spell from a source that came before the metamagic that makes it obsolete is a bad idea. If they made everything outright better. And to answer the other question, clearly not all 9th level spells are bad. Just look in the spell compendium+PHB. I'm pretty sure this thread is just about how bad 1 spell is. Which with an average of 5 lvls, I don't think it's much to laugh about. Not all spells are designed for combat encounters, nor should the value of said spells be based on how good they are in combat.

Shape stone has consistently been one of my favorite spells in combat and out of it. Using it to remove a door from a wall was the best part (we thought it was magically trapped because of runes around it, even though we were wrong we thought it was funny). And I used it to make a ladder to climb out of a pit trap with my Dwarf cleric. And to hide stuff (a demonic sword).

Yeah, this IS a thread about how bad the one spell is, and if any other 9th is that bad. Only you and one other guys so far I think has given me good examples of 9th level spells. Alot of the argument seemed to be assuming Core rules (I am a Dread Necro, obviously it is not Core, I even said Incant was free game, too).

Good point about it should be useful out of combat, but it really isn't. I know there are ways of fixing the lost levels, and if you'll spent a slot at beginning of combat for a pimped out Quickened Enervation nets you the same effect >:(

Thanks again for your replies. :smallsmile:

[RecklessAbaddon]

My point was more about other 9th level spells even if they look bad not being horrible. I understand why you thing how you do, but with core only MM the spell is pretty great.

I don't know if there are any Spell Compendium 9th level spells that take away levels (read: give negative levels), but my presumed use would be like the comment before on a mid-high mid level npc for a RP heavy game.

I feel bad making another comment because I'm just reiterating things said before.

I'll concede its main use in battle isn't that great considering what you can do with the lower level spell though. Buuuuut, it's also still only 1 casting.

Also "Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from enervation don’t last long enough to do so. "

Can't post more, in a hurry to leave library. was going to say more.

[Doug Lampert]

Ya the line of reasoning a few posts up makes effective levels meaningless for absolutely everything. Most straightforward interpretation is if something is based on a level, then that number goes down, simple. If it doesn't use that kind of numerical wording or similar, it's not affected.

Then the spell slot loss is almost always meaningless because you lose your highest level spells and can't cast them anyway. Read the SRD under caster level, you CAN'T cast a fireball at CL 4, it's flatly forbidden. So you lose slots you can't lose anyway?

Caster level and class level are clearly different from character level and are defined as such in the rules.

[ericgrau]

Specifically it's "whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level" and "the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.". So the above is ambiguous, but if you can cast the fireball at all then it is certainly 4d6.

[Aharon]

@ericgrau
This is a case where the full text from the PHB is clearer:


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the
caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell
in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the
same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball
to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she
can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower
caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected
caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than
5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

So the minimum CL to cast a spell is the level at which your class is first able to acquire it. This would support the interpretation that an enervated caster can't cast his highest level spells because his CL is too low.

[NeoSeraphi]

@ericgrau
This is a case where the full text from the PHB is clearer:


So the minimum CL to cast a spell is the level at which your class is first able to acquire it. This would support the interpretation that an enervated caster can't cast his highest level spells because his CL is too low.

*shrugs* I support this interpretation. Makes enervation a much deadlier spell. Drop their CL, take a spell slot, and then if their CL is too low, they can't cast their highest level spells.

And Doug, taking away their highest available spell is still meaningful in that sense. A) If their highest remaining spell is of a lower level than the highest they were able to cast (such as if they used up all their 4th level spells for the day, you drop them down to CL 5 and take one of their 3rd level spells away) and B) if their CL is so high that they would still be able to cast their highest level spells despite the lowered CL (such as a character who had the Practiced Spellcaster feat, therefore having a higher effective caster level, but not the higher level spells that came with that caster level)

[NeoSeraphi]

Then the spell slot loss is almost always meaningless because you lose your highest level spells and can't cast them anyway. Read the SRD under caster level, you CAN'T cast a fireball at CL 4, it's flatly forbidden. So you lose slots you can't lose anyway?

Caster level and class level are clearly different from character level and are defined as such in the rules.

Okay. So caster level and class level are different. Therefore, a paladin with negative levels still adds his full class level to his Smite damage rolls, a 6th level wizard with 5 negative levels still casts with a CL 6, and an assassin with 2 negative levels still uses those levels to calculate the DC of his Death Attack.

So what, then, is the character level calculation (and the lessening of it described under negative levels) used for? And it has to be something from Core, since negative levels had that description in Core before any other source material was released.

[Aquillion]

So what, then, is the character level calculation (and the lessening of it described under negative levels) used for? And it has to be something from Core, since negative levels had that description in Core before any other source material was released.Resisting the Intimidate skill.

Healing speed when resting.

Divine Power's BAB boost.