Resurrection magic

[Adindra]

ok i have a really weird question that may come up in my next few sessions.

one of my characters cohorts is pregnant (big ingame magic wedding planned and everything) and as such shes retiring from adventuring, however we have a very accident prone player and it is possible she may die before she has her child (the player in question does really really dumb things consistently)

so i was thinking what would happen if you true rezed the mother? would the baby come back as well?

[Chilingsworth]

DISCLAIMER: The below are my best guesses based on my knowledge of the rules, human biology, and a dash of metaphysics. Any resemblance to reality is a case of YMMV (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YMMV) at best.

I'd guess there's one of three possibilities, depending on the development of the embryo/fetus/infant:

1. The embryo hasn't developed sufficently to host a soul (say, no brain function): In this case, the ebryo is part of the mother's body and will be returned to existance if/when the mother is brought back to life. Though a resurrection spell would be needed to achieve this, since the embryo isn't nessicary to the mother's survival and therefore wouldn't be returned via raise dead. in this case, use of raise dead might allow a regenerate spell to restore the embryo.

2. The fetus has developed sufficently to host a soul, but is not viable outside the mother: In this case, there is no hope for the fetus, save maybe a wish/miracle spell. This is because the fetus can no longer be considered part of the mother's body in the same way it could earlier. It would therefore need it's own raise dead spell/reserrection. But, since it's not in any way a viable organism, such magic would automatically fail.

3. The fetus/infant is developed sufficently to be viable outside the womb: In this case, it might be possible to save the infant without resorting to resurrection magic, depending on magical resources available and quick action. Even if this is impossible, the infant's corpse could be removed from the mother's and returned to life sperately. (the mother of course could also be returned to life, though cutting the body up enough to allow for the infant's removal would probably require a reserrection to do the job.

Of course, it would be up to the DM to determine which of these states apply, and exactly when they do.

[Jack_Simth]

ok i have a really weird question that may come up in my next few sessions.

one of my characters cohorts is pregnant (big ingame magic wedding planned and everything) and as such shes retiring from adventuring, however we have a very accident prone player and it is possible she may die before she has her child (the player in question does really really dumb things consistently)

so i was thinking what would happen if you true rezed the mother? would the baby come back as well?This is a philosophical question, answerable only by the DM. A better way to phrase it:
At what point is a child considered a separate creature from the mother?

If the DM in question says "At birth", then prior to birth, the child is not a separate creature, and is effectively a funny limb of the mother - in which case, as goes the mother, so goes the child.

If the DM in question says "At conception", then the child is a separate creature, and needs a separate spell.

If the DM in question says some other point, then the child is effectively a limb of the mother prior to that point (and comes with the mother on Resurrection), and needs a separate spell after that point.

You *might* find an official answer in The Book of Erotic Fantasy, but this is the type of question that is better answered by the DM for the specific campaign in question.

[Piggy Knowles]

As a DM, I would probably say that it would take a Wish or Miracle spell to bring back the mother and child. Even without getting into messy questions of whether the spell was retrieving one soul or two, True Resurrection brings one subject back to full health and vigor - it doesn't restore them to exactly the way they were before they die.

But there's no correct answer. That's just the way I would probably rule it as a DM.

[raymundo]

You *might* find an official answer in The Book of Erotic Fantasy, but this is the type of question that is better answered by the DM for the specific campaign in question.

It does not answer this question. Or so I have heard.. not that I had this particular tome at my disposal..


OT, having it restored by a resurrection spell at the players discretion is probably the most sensitive thing, I guess not every one would like to roleplay a quasi-stillborn baby.

[Adindra]

Makes sense. I'm actually the dm thats going to have to deal with this more than likely so i was looking for some input which you all have thankfully given ^.^. I dont think im going to check out the BEF though i guess ill just wing it based on when the unfortunate player caused accident occurs

[Jack_Simth]

Makes sense. I'm actually the dm thats going to have to deal with this more than likely so i was looking for some input which you all have thankfully given ^.^. I dont think im going to check out the BEF though i guess ill just wing it based on when the unfortunate player caused accident occurs
Oh. In that case, pick what you think the group as a whole will find most fun (however you measure that chimerical word), as fun is the fundamental point of a game (under most circumstances).

[Frosty]

ALso, what con does a unborn baby have? If he or she has 2 or less Con, than the baby can't be raised anyways.

[Kol Korran]

hhmmmm... i study medicine, so i can bring up that field's info i guess: a fetus, from it's earliest stages (won't go into that), is a different entity alltogether. the mother's body consider's it as an invading body, due to a different genetic code, antiegn determinants and other stuff i won't go into. thankfully, through evolution the mother's (and later the fetus/ embryo's) immune system are altered in pregnancy as to avoid seriously affecting the other. they live together in a sort of a truce, where the fetus/ embryo "leaches" (sorry for the term, but it is... sort of correct) to the mother's blood stream for nutrition...

a bit like a parasite really. only one we're genetically geared to accept. many of the cases of miscarriage and abortion result from the mother's immune system reverting back and basically attacking the parasite, later causing it to be expelled.

this is one of the main reason why placental creatures came so late. egges are a much simpler solution...

but in D&D terms? whatever feels cool i'd say. my best idea? the mother may come back, as does the baby, but... is it really the same baby anymore? (cue in demon trying to get back into the world or the like)

[bassmasterginga]

from Wikipedia -
"There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a fetus automatically becomes viable.[1] According to data years 2003-2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.[2] It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500g (17.6 ounces) to survive.[1]"

i suppose you could roll percent dice to determine if the baby is a seperate organism from the mom if this happens between 23 and 26. If you have been counting weeks....

[Kol Korran]

from Wikipedia -
"There is no sharp limit of development, age, or weight at which a fetus automatically becomes viable.[1] According to data years 2003-2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive.[2] It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500g (17.6 ounces) to survive.[1]"

i suppose you could roll percent dice to determine if the baby is a seperate organism from the mom if this happens between 23 and 26. If you have been counting weeks....

To quote Rincewind "alive per se in not much comfort. with all limbs attached?" (or something on those lines) survival is not dependent only on age, but mostly on medical facilities (the comparison uses mostly USA, britain, germany and france as base lines, if i'm not forgetting or mixing a country or two), and quite a few other factors medicine hasn't figured out yet. go to less developed countries (where does the D&D magical mojo stands in terms of "medical treatment"?) and the precentages are far far worse.

but the lower the age at birth, the higher the risk (exponentially) of defects. most common are neural defects, mostly the brain. but other common organs that suffer are the lungs (unless you passed week 27), the kidneys (and you WANT your kidneys to be well) and often hormonal glands to a certain degree. defects can be from mid to severe, again- the lower the age, the worse the condition.

due to these defects many of these children don't make it through their first year.

there may be other effects, it's been a little while since i studied these, but as a general rule of thumb.

... now that i've done depressing people. i'll go to the corner and be quiet.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would allow it even if the child was to young, but require two casting, one to bring back the mother, and another to bring back the child, still in the mother. And you would have to do something that prevents any con or level loss to the infant.

Twice the cost, but you save both.

[Adindra]

I would allow it even if the child was to young, but require two casting, one to bring back the mother, and another to bring back the child, still in the mother. And you would have to do something that prevents any con or level loss to the infant.

Twice the cost, but you save both.


i know they are willing to pull out all the stops should this cohort die the players have all grown attached to her so an amount of money isnt really that big of a problem for them

[Urpriest]

Hmm...when Ressurected, someone is cured of all diseases. This may include Pregnancy.

[pendell]

Is there a spell to accelerate growth? Assuming the baby is separate from mum at conception, could you age the baby to a point where he/she is viable THEN rez it? Or could you set up some sort of artificial life-sustaining spell, rez the baby, allow the life support to keep it alive *just long enough* to cast some sort of aging spell to bring him/her to viability?


Actually, that brings up another possibility -- if there's a spell to age the baby, you could use it to accelerate the pregnancy. Then deliver the baby and then mum can get killed without worrying about losing the baby.

Regardless, the best solution to the problem is don't get killed in the first place . Suggest impressing that on the mum's player :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cespenar]

Have the resurrection work successfully and seemingly without side effects... but as the child grows up, there's something wrong with him, he's sort of both dead and living at the same time...

Oh my, is that a new plot hook?

[Urpriest]

Have the resurrection work successfully and seemingly without side effects... but as the child grows up, there's something wrong with him, he's sort of both dead and living at the same time...

Oh my, is that a new plot hook?

There are a few half-undead templates in a Dragon Magazine that might be appropriate, particularly Half-Zombie.

[Adindra]

Regardless, the best solution to the problem is don't get killed in the first place . Suggest impressing that on the mum's player :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

oh no i agree with you completely just with all the shenanigans my players get into and the fact that the one who will probably end up killing the rest of the party just acquired a breath weapon i figured it was best to plan for eventualities

[TheRinni]

Because I'm a big fan of tragedies, I would be tempted to have the child not survive.

Call me a sadist if you will. Having my players face the emotional devastation of losing a child is, well, something I would try to explore if given the opportunity. Like killing a player's family member or somesuch, it gives the characters great motivations and developments.

[Piggy Knowles]

Like killing a player's family member or somesuch, it gives the characters great motivations and developments.

Wow. As a DM, you must be REALLY dedicated to getting the right feel for your games...

[Andorax]

Lots of discussion of mechanics. Lots of discussion of biology.

Here's my take on it...what best serves the interests of the storyline?

Would the tale you, as DM, are trying to tell be best served by a tragic, senseless loss? Then the unborn child is stillborn or reabsorbed or isn't there at all when mom's raised.


Would an uncertain, terrible potential future fit your theme better? Then see the above suggestions about the resurrection working, but something "else" coming along for the ride. The undeveloped body is healed, but the undeveloped soul wasn't strong enough to fend off a fiendish/far realm influence coming along for the ride.


Is simplicity the best course, and get on with the story without all this agonizing? Play it straight up. Mom's restored with everything, including a healthy fetus, intact.


Or would you prefer not to have such a 'downer' in your campaign, and make a 'blessing in disguise' out of it? The baby's not just restored to life, it's changed for the better by the infusion of holy magic during its development. The child could be born Aasimar, or with some other minor supernatural trait that marks it as specially-blessed.



Seriously, worry less about the "right" answer by rules, and more about what would tell the best story...if it even comes up. I sincerely *hope* you're not looking for a precident you'll need to reuse regularly.

[Radar]

There are a few half-undead templates in a Dragon Magazine that might be appropriate, particularly Half-Zombie.
I'd rather go with Necropolitan, since it's not crippling. Does have it's own issues (social acceptance etc.), but nothing physicaly or mentaly serious.

[sreservoir]

if the baby is separate, it can be last breathed. and then it gets an adult body.

silly, yes, but.

[TheRinni]

Wow. As a DM, you must be REALLY dedicated to getting the right feel for your games...

-que dramatic lightning strike-
Bewahahaha! Why, yes, of course I am. Why? Doesn't everyone conduct ritualistic sacrifices before their game sessions?

I mean, really. How else is one supposed to appease the fickle god of polyhedral dice?

Seriously, worry less about the "right" answer by rules, and more about what would tell the best story...if it even comes up. I sincerely *hope* you're not looking for a precident you'll need to reuse regularly.
I agree with this statement. Since the rules do not offer a specific answer, and it could be ruled either way, follow whatever would be most fitting.