Building a Pathfinder Necromancer.

[13ones]

Hello everyone. The name is Bones, long time fan of the forums. Anyways, I'll get right to the point of this thread.

Basically I've signed up for my very first pathfinder tourny! Huzzah! But I need to have a complete character sheet in by the 28th or else I'm out of the fun and games. I'm turning to you, GitP forums, to lend me aid in my time of need.

Basically I've decided to make a necromancer going through the sorcerer tree. I'll be taking the Undead bloodline as well as a lot of cold spells throughout. But seeing as I'm still rather...fresh...I have no idea what to do.

Here are some basic rules of the game I'm in. We start at 4th level. We get 6000gp but cannot spend more than 1500 on a single item. Base races are the only races allowed. Spells, feats and everything are from all the path finder books.

Basically, what I'm asking is can you help me with my ability point, skill, feat and gear choices? I'm really, utterly lost.

Much Thanks!

[13ones]

So, I guess the first question would be, I suppose. Would it be wiser to go Wizard with a more necromatic feel?

[Mystic Muse]

Can you specify what kind of ability generation you get? Kind of hard to tell you where to put your points or arrange your abilities if we don't know what kind of generation/abilities you have.

[13ones]

Uh. Trying to think. It doesn't involve any kind of rolling what so ever. Everything starts at 10, and then I believe we add up to 25 before racial mods. Thinking of Human or Half-Elf.

For example, I was building a rogue before I wanted to make a necromancer.

These were his stats.

14 Strength
16 Dex (+2 because I was a half-orc)
14 Con
10 Int
12 Wis
13 Cha.

Hope that helps?

[Mystic Muse]

Alright 25 point buy.

My advice would be to put at least a 16 in intelligence or charisma before racial modifiers depending on whether you're a wizard or sorcerer. Next, I would put at least a 14 in Constitution, since health is going to be very important to you, since casters tend to be squishy, even with D6 HD. The rest of the stats aren't often that relevant to a Sorcerer or wizard, except for Dexterity if you're going to be making ranged attack rolls.

Can you explain the idea behind the tourny a bit better? Is this going to be a long period thing where you could get to much higher levels, or is this going to be a couple of sessions and then you're done type thing? I've just never heard of a D&D tournament, though I'm not very familiar with Pathfinder, so that may just be my ignorance.

[legomaster00156]

Let me see... 25-point buy is, I think, what you mean. The Sorcerer should be fine, considering in tourneys I understand that they are normally short campaigns (so not much time for scribing new spells, anyway). I recommend picking up some of the following spells. Think very carefully about your 2nd-level spell: you only get one.

0th: All Necromancy cantrips; Prestidigation; Mage Hand; DAZE
1st: Chill Touch; Ray of Enfeeblement; Vanish (poor man's Invisibility); Expeditious Retreat; Charm Person (gotta love the bloodline arcana); Protection from [Alignment]
2nd: Resist Energy; Scorching Ray; Spectral Hand

[13ones]

It's a multiple module event. Every event is same setting, different point in time. Every mod will allow the players to advance four levels. Players are graded on speed (over 4 hours and you start losing points), effectiveness, teamwork and role-playing. In the end the ones with the highest score move to the 20th level to finish the Story and one will be crowned the winner for the year and get their name on a nice plaque in the Games Club's office.

That's the way it's working, at least as far as my understanding goes. I was originally going to go a Half-Orc rogue eventually going into Shadowdancer, but I overheard a lot of people discussing their characters and found a serious lack of spell casting/ ranged damage and support. So I wanted to bring out a Necromancer cause...hey, Necromancers are cool.

So what spells would you suggest if I go into Sorcerer? With 4th level I get 6 level 0 spells, 3 1st level and then 1 2nd level spells. And what about gear? Weapons?

To be honest this is my first pen and paper experience and I'm really at a loss.

[13ones]

Let me see... 25-point buy is, I think, what you mean. The Sorcerer should be fine, considering in tourneys I understand that they are normally short campaigns (so not much time for scribing new spells, anyway). I recommend picking up some of the following spells. Think very carefully about your 2nd-level spell: you only get one.

0th: All Necromancy cantrips; Prestidigation; Mage Hand; DAZE
1st: Chill Touch; Ray of Enfeeblement; Vanish (poor man's Invisibility); Expeditious Retreat; Charm Person (gotta love the bloodline arcana); Protection from [Alignment]
2nd: Resist Energy; Scorching Ray; Spectral Hand

Thanks. I posted the thing above before seeing yours. Heh.

[Trekkin]

Welcome to the forums, Bones.

As to your necromantic sorcerer, what kind of necromancer did you want to be? Minionmancy is probably out of reach for a fourth-level character, but you might be able to pull off fear-based stuff or negative energy necromancy.

[Ashram]

Just for future reference Bones, as this thread is based on Pathfinder, it should go in the 3.5 section above the general Roleplaying forum. :smallredface:

[13ones]

Welcome to the forums, Bones.

As to your necromantic sorcerer, what kind of necromancer did you want to be? Minionmancy is probably out of reach for a fourth-level character, but you might be able to pull off fear-based stuff or negative energy necromancy.

Eventually I want to go to minomancy, but seeing as how we only advance 4 levels per mod I know it's out of reach at the moment. So yeah, probably fear and negative energy would be best, for now.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you want to go into miniomnancy then DON'T PLAY A SORCERER. I know that may sound harsh but sorcerers are the worst miniomnancer out of the arcane spellcaster classes...If you want to do miniomnancy I would sugjest first and formost that you play a Cleric. They are really the best minionmancers necromancy wise. However, if you for some reason don't like cleric I'd sugjest one of the following over the sorc any day..

Necromancy Specialist Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard)- If you don't mind preparing your spells, a necro specialist wizard is a far better minionmaster then a sorc will ever be. They get command undead for free, for one, and they can take the undead sub school of necromancy to get an ability that can buff their minions. They also get animate dead a bit faster then sorcs(still a level 4, but they get level 4s earler then sorcs do.) and have great synergy with the Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave) PrC, which if your not a divine caster you MUST take to be good at miniomnancy.

Bones Mystery Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle)- While I know it's divine and not Arcane, if you want to be a spontaneous, charisma sorc-esc caster who is good at necromantic minionmastery, an Oracle with the Bones mystery is your go-to class for the job. The Bones Mystery gives you all kinds of awesome necromantic powers such as the ever important command undead and a skeleton summon. The best part, though, is that you use the cleric list AND get all inflict spells(if evil or neutral) for free. This means that you can both heal your minions AND you get animate dead as a level 3 spell as appose to a level 4 spell, meaning you can pick it up before the sorc AND the wizard.

Anyway, hope that helped a bit but don't think the sorc is bad at NECROMANCY....necromancy is more then undead minions and sorcs excel at the debuffing and negative energy-blasting sides of necromancy....there just not all that great at the undead minion part of it. So if you want a minion-based necromancer I'd sugjest cleric or one of the others I mentioned but if your fine with a less minion-focused necro go ahead and play sorc.

[legomaster00156]

Minionmancy is out of the quesion for a 4th-level Sorcerer. Now, thinking about your build, I would use a Gnome with the following stats. You may want to adjust it to suit your playstyle, though.

STR: 8 (-2)
DEX: 14
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 18 (+2)

[13ones]

Well I just thought Sorcerer would be good because of the Undead Bloodline. Hmm. Ah, well I don't mind wizard. So how would that work? Like what kind of stuff would I have to pick for a Wizard based Necromancer? I know I'll have to spec high Int and Con, with everything else being a dump pretty much.

What kind of spells would you recommend for a 4th level Wizard/Necromancer?

I guess it's a no brainer to select Necromancy as my Arcane school but what about my opposing schools?

Sorry about all the questions. I would be asking someone at the Game's club but the office is closed at the moment.

[Maho-Tsukai]

At level 4 your still not going to have Animate Dead just yet, but either will a Cleric or Oracle so pretty much nobody will be doing the minion thing at level 4. If you want to go minion wizard, though, I would sugjest you do the following..

Specalist School- Necromancy(Obviously)

Banned Schools- Evocation(Blasting is not that great and you can get enough blasts from your main school(Necro) and conjuration anyway.), Abjuration(Not much thats useful other then the dispell line and since this is pathfinder and not 3.5e if you REALLY need the dispell line you CAN cast them...or just use items for them instead.)

Ability Scores- Int and Con should be your primary focu, BUT you also want a decient cha as well. Charisma makes your command undead power stronger and helps you reliabally make the charisma check for the command undead spell. You don't need too much, as you can get your hands on +cha items later on if you want to use the command undead spell to it's full potentinal, but you should have some cha.

Feats-
*Command Undead (You get this for free by specializing in necromancy.)
*Undead Master(Your command undead power and animate dead spell get a rather massive boost from this, pretty much a must-have for a minionmancer.)
*Leadership (If you cannot enter the agent of the grave PrC(WHICH YOU SHOULD MUST YOUR STORE ABOUT IMMEDIATELY) then leadership is a MUST and your cohort MUST be a cleric or oracle with the spell desecrate. If you CAN go into agent of the grave this is not as necessary but if you can't then take this as soon as you can(level 6.)...having a cleric or oracle working for you is ALMOST as good as being one yourself or being an agent of the grave...so if no agent of the grave, take this ASAP.)''

Builds/ACFs-Take the Undead Sub-school of Necromancy to replace your lame touch attack with a nice buff for your minions. Take a familiar instead of a bonded item. Yeah, a bonded Necromancer's Anthema looks nice on paper but NEVER take a bonded object...ever..the drawbacks are just too horrible to deal with. Yes, they are that bad....also...

BE AN AGENT OF THE GRAVE IF YOU CAN. I will not stress that enough. At level 9 you can enter this PrC and IF YOU CAN YOU WILL. Desecrate as an aura that you can use whenever you like. Ability to poach any necromancy spells you want from the cleric list....and THE ABILITY TO USE MIND EFFECTING SPELLS ON UNDEAD. That's a REALLY big deal for a wizard. Suddenly Command Undead(both the spell and channeling power) become obsolete. See an undead minion you want? Dominate Person it into your service. That's the reason I said to ban abjure over enchantment. If you can go agent of the grave, Dominate Person will become your new best friend.

Agent of the Grave is pretty much one of the main reasons to be a necromancer wizard...and if you can go that way you will, no questions asked.

[13ones]

And if I wanted to be a more blasty, Sorcerer Necromancer, what would I be taking then? I'm weighing all my options. I've been a minion master in guild wars for years, so I naturally drifted towards that, but if I can be more useful to my group as a blasty necromancer...

And the thing is I don't know my group. It's totally randomized and shuffled every four levels.

And I dunno about Wizard, the concept of preparing spells, spells per day and having material costs is making me a little...warry

[legomaster00156]

Well, I've given all the help I can for a Necromancer-based Sorcerer. It's really up to you if you want to do that or a blaster.

[13ones]

Well, I've given all the help I can for a Necromancer-based Sorcerer. It's really up to you if you want to do that or a blaster.

Thanks. Basically what I have in mind is a chaotic good version of Xylon..heh...

[Curious]

I believe there was a new spell printed in UM or UC that is Animate Dead, but only 1 skeleton/zombie. And it was 2nd level. Probably up on the SRD somewhere.

[legomaster00156]

I believe there was a new spell printed in UM or UC that is Animate Dead, but only 1 skeleton/zombie. And it was 2nd level. Probably up on the SRD somewhere.

3rd-level, actually. You are referring to Lesser Animate Dead. It is 2nd-level for Clerics, but frankly, there are better spells that you could be using.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you don't like spell preporation and want good necromancy then, again, I'll sugjest the Oracle. It's a divine caster instead of arcane, but it dose not demand that you worship a god like a cleric. Unlike the wizard it is a spontainous caster, JUST LIKE the sorc. Yes. The Oracle casts in the exact same manner as a sorc. Spells known, no preporation, no spellbook and no GP cost....Oh..and the Oracle even uses the same casting stat as the Sorc, charisma. The only difference between the Oracle and the Sorc is the spell list and special abilites(ok, and profiencies too.) and in all honesty if you want a minion-based Necromancer who is a spontainous caster that uses Cha as your casting stat Oracle is vastly superior to sorc. Not only do you get the cleric list, which gives you animate dead as a level 3 and DESECRATE but you get all kinds of other abilites from the Bones Mystery(which you will take wanting to be a necromancer.) INCLUDING a skeleton summon, much like that spell mentioned above,that is not actually a spell meaning you can use your valuble spells known on something else...

The Bones Mystery Oracle seems like the PERFECT fit for this character concept....and if you don't believe me...I emplore you to check the links below...

The Oracle class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) - So you can see it casts just like the sorc but better at minion-based necromancy.

The Bones Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/bones) - The mystery that makes you good at minion-based necromancy.

The Cleric Spell List (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---cleric) - The spell list that your class will be drawing it's known spells from, which, again, makes you better at minion-based necromancy then the sorc.

Hopefully this will allow you to see what your missing, but if your dead-set on sorc just go for it and ignore my advice. I'm just trying to point you to a class that dose what you want but if being a sorc is more important then being good at minion-based necromancy and being a spontaneous caster then you can just ignore this...


Though I will say it is a total shame that your tournament has to be offical(and thus stick to Pazio material.) The Death Mage from super genius games(which is on the SRD, by the way) is pretty much THE PERFECT FIT for this situation but alas it's a 3rd party class so it gets no love in official events like this.

[13ones]

It is not that I am ignoring your advice, in fact I'm quite thankful for it. However the concept of Oracles/Clerics just isn't appealing to me. Wizard or Sorcerer seems more appealing.

I realize that a wizard Minion-master would be better than a Sorcerer, and I know Oracle/Cleric would be better than that as well. But I'm also curious about a more blasty necromancer, dealing more damage and maybe raising a minion once and a rare while. I still have 24 hours to make my character sheet and have it totally submitted so I'm still weighing everything in my head.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see. Ok, in that case your going to want to focus mostly on debuffs. Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation ect... Remember, debuffing an opponent is better then just strait up blasting them and Necromancy is very good at debuffing. At your level, look for stuff that deals non HP damage and/or debuffs enemies. Fear effects are good, so I would look into getting your hands on Scare or a similar fear spell. Likewise, Ray of Enfeeblement was a awesome spell in 3.5e and if it's still good in pathfinder you should take it. However, I read somewhere it was nerfed to the point of being useless, so you may want to look up that spell before taking my word on it.

You also will have a lot of Range: Touch spells at this level, and thus it's practically mandatory that you pick up spectral hand. That spell will allow you to keep your squishy self at a safe distance from enemies while you cast stuff like chill touch through spectral hand. As for minions, don't bother with undead until you can get animate dead...at low levels your best minions are going to be from the summon monster line, though they don't stay around for long.

However, if you REALLY want undead minions at your level I will suggest using command undead(The spell, not the feat.) Basically, against intelligent undead this is a dominate person. Meet a Zombie, cast this on it and it's your slave...no questions asked. The poor thing is not even entitled a save against this. On intelligent undead, however, this spell kinda stinks. On intelligent stuff like Wights, Vamps ect...(AKA the stuff actually worth dominating) this spell only works as a charm person but for undead. Now for a wizard thats kinda meh, but since your a sorc you actually have a better chance of passing the charisma check required to make your chamed wight, vamp ect.. do what you want it to with charisma being your casting stat and all.

So if you want undead minions at this level I'd skip that skeleton-creating spell and just use command undead to dominate the random undead you meet as you adventure....though that's just me.

[13ones]

Thank you very much. You've all been a great help.

[TurtleKing]

Hello. If staying with Sorcerer the Accursed Bloodline might be your best one to debuff. Though I do have an even better option for you if interested. The Witch from trying to find the best debuffer is it hands down. Signature ability Evil Eye for a debuffer while doesn't seem great you can spam it all day long. They get spells that work great so will be toward the lower end of tier 1. While many extoll the wonders of the Slumber or Misfortune hexes that can only affect that target 1/day. Witch's can also pull off minionmancy with using the Gravewalker archtype. The Patron best used for debuffing and the like would be Insanity or Shadow. I'll leave this link to the thread I did on PF debuffing. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211451

[Analytica]

BE AN AGENT OF THE GRAVE IF YOU CAN. I will not stress that enough. At level 9 you can enter this PrC and IF YOU CAN YOU WILL. Desecrate as an aura that you can use whenever you like. Ability to poach any necromancy spells you want from the cleric list....and THE ABILITY TO USE MIND EFFECTING SPELLS ON UNDEAD. That's a REALLY big deal for a wizard. Suddenly Command Undead(both the spell and channeling power) become obsolete. See an undead minion you want? Dominate Person it into your service. That's the reason I said to ban abjure over enchantment. If you can go agent of the grave, Dominate Person will become your new best friend.

Do note, however, that Pathfinder has metamagic feats that allow you to use mind-affecting (and energy drain) effects on undead. Though spell levels do go up by two... I see the appeal of increasing your spell list as well, though the only necromancy I find my wizard really missing is Speak with Dead.

Also, note that there is a lesser animate dead available as a third level spell.

Most appealing for a wizard though: necromancer's athame. Item, 25000 gp, allows you to spontaneously cast necromancy spells.

[legomaster00156]

Do note, however, that Pathfinder has metamagic feats that allow you to use mind-affecting (and energy drain) effects on undead. Though spell levels do go up by two... I see the appeal of increasing your spell list as well, though the only necromancy I find my wizard really missing is Speak with Dead.

Also, note that there is a lesser animate dead available as a third level spell.

Most appealing for a wizard though: necromancer's athame. Item, 25000 gp, allows you to spontaneously cast necromancy spells.

I, uh, don't think you actually read this thread very carefully.

1. As an Undead Bloodline Sorcer, several mind-affecting spells, such as Charm Person, can be used on undead without any adjustment to the spell level.
2. He is allowed 6K gp, with no more than 1.5K to be used on any single item.
3. He's level 4, and no Wizard, let alone a Sorcerer, can use 3rd-level spells.

[Analytica]

I, uh, don't think you actually read this thread very carefully.

1. As an Undead Bloodline Sorcer, several mind-affecting spells, such as Charm Person, can be used on undead without any adjustment to the spell level.
2. He is allowed 6K gp, with no more than 1.5K to be used on any single item.
3. He's level 4, and no Wizard, let alone a Sorcerer, can use 3rd-level spells.

I am sorry. I was actually responding to Maho-Tsukai's post there, concerning whether or not Agent of the Grave is necessary at later levels or not in order to be able to affect undead using mind-affecting magic as a wizard.

Concerning your second and third points, the OP stated that there would be advancement, four levels at a time. As such I guessed that the game would eventually play at higher levels, and as such, I felt that discussing options for low-level play that increasingly pay off at higher levels could also be relevant.

EDIT: I did, however, miss that you had already mentioned the lesser animate dead spell. :smallredface:

[TurtleKing]

The Witch works quite well considering you get Shadow patron. Quite capable at debuffing through hexes while your spells can blast, buff, battlefield control, and heal… yes you can even heal. You get Shadow Conjuration and Evocation as well their greater versions. As for the final spell you get Shades so you can mimic any 8th level or lower conjuration spell at 80%. So versatility is quite capable. While you don't get spells like Create Undead without getting the either Occult or Plague patrons or the Gravewalker archtype.The Witch does have the capability to learn new spells through your familiar. So the Witch can easily fit what you want to do with some versatility that can go all day long. While those others are limited to their spells in determining how long they can go before done for the day Witch's don't have that.

[13ones]

After much consideration, wracking my brain and just general confusion I've made a decision.

I intend to go rogue, into Shadow Dancer.

Derp.

[13ones]

Rather Ironic I'm performing thread necromancy on a thread about Necromancy.

So while I am playing a rogue, I ended up missing the first Mod (Due to not being able to get out of work) so I never actually took part. From what I keep hearing from people there is a SERIOUS lack of Arcane casters. Of about 40+ players there are about 7 Arcane casters. So I've asked the GM's since my character has yet to take part, if I could potentially reroll to a wizard in order to fill a greater need. They are discussing it as I post this. So I come back to this thread, to learn more.

Now there are some updates to all of this. Since I am taking part in the second mod I've been bumped up to 8th level. So I'd need to figure out everything out for that level now.

Also I have more information as they have (finally) posted all the offical rules. It'll all be in the next post as it's rather long. Thanks in advance for all your help.

[13ones]

-Characters are made with 25 point buy.

-Core races (from Core Book) only.

-Classes can be drawn from any of the available books.

-Specify any alternate racial features, what favoured class bonuses you are using, etc. During character creation.

-The level for the first module is 4.

-Characters receive 6000gp for the first module. At most 1500gp may be spent on any one item. At this point, any item not banned, and that can be afforded can be selected. Players will receive more gold after each module for the next.

-At first level, all character receive the maximum hit points for their hit dice; at each additional level, characters receive 1/2 the maximum, plus one. (e.g. A fighter would receive 10 hit points at first level, and 6 (10 divided by 2 = 5; 5 + 1 = 6) at each additional level).

- Item Creation feats, such as scribe scroll, are not allowed, if your character would receive such a feat as a class feature, check the 'Further Rules' section.

-Characters can be of ANY alignment, classes which have specific rules about associating with characters of certain alignment (e.g. Paladins), these rules are waived.

-Characters MUST have an in character reason to be involved in the story, see 'Setting' for more details.

-Include one or two short sentences describing what role(s) you expect your character to fill in the party."

-There is no item creation, or crafting of any kind; use the following substitutions.

- Alchemists receive the 'Extra Bombs' feat instead of 'Brew Potion'

- Cavaliers receive 'Skill Focus (Handle Animal)' instead of the 'Expert Trainer' class feature

- Witches cannot select the 'Cauldron' hex.

- Wizards receive 'Spell Focus' instead of 'Scribe Scroll'.

- The Leadership feat (and any other method of gaining a companion other then a class feature) is not allowed.

- Clerics and Druids with the Nobility Domain receive 'Persuasive' instead of 'Leadership'

-Oracles of the Nature Mystery replace 'awaken' with 'animal growth' for bonus spells.

-Other then firearms, NO variant or additional rules from Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic or Ultimate Combat are allowed. This includes but is not limited to:
-Hero Points
-Armour as Damage Reduction
-Traits

- Following the first round, item and equipment selection will be purchassed from a 'shop list' available following the module. This may restrict access to many items, including special materials (like mithral and adamantium), scrolls, adavanced firearms, etc.

- Each player receives one 'free pick' each round, which is not from the shop list.