worst party ever

[skycycle blues]

I have an idea for a game I would want to DM, probably as a one-shot, just to see how it goes. I want to see how long a party of say level 6, with each character in the worst class possible for their party role, would last in a session designed for an average party of the same level.

Four-five players.
Warrior-Samurai
Divine-Healer

Arcane-Warmage?
Skill Monkey-not sure

And for fun, throw in a Truenamer.

What do you think?

[Incanur]

The warmage isn't bad at all at level six. It's going to outshine the other folks.

[skycycle blues]

Any ideas for what to use for the arcane role instead?

[gorfnab]

Skill Monkey - Ninja

[Silva Stormrage]

Truenamer should be the arcane caster :smallbiggrin:

[Drelua]

Warmages may be bad casters, but they're pretty damn good blasters, in my experience. I started one at level 20, which is obviously quite different, but I was making everyone else look bad doing nothing but blowing stuff up. It seems to me that he'll be doing the same thing, making everyone else look bad, especially the samurai. But hey, the healer would keep them alive! And get really bored, in all probability...

Basically; just because they're weak casters doesn't mean they're weak compared to non-ToB melee. They may just blow stuff up, but it's incredibly satisfying always having just the right explosion for the job.

EDIT: You win this round, ninjas...

[Lateral]

Well, the four roles that should be filled are Skillmonkey, Arcane casting, Divine casting, and beatstick. Beatstick is obviously CW samurai with zero ranks in Intimidate, Divine is a Healer, and Arcane is Truenamer. Skillmonkey is a little less obvious, but CA ninja is probably your best bet.

[Incanur]

I started one at level 20, which is obviously quite different, but I was making everyone else look bad doing nothing but blowing stuff up.

Interesting. What other classes were involved? Twenty doesn't strike me as a blasting level.

[skycycle blues]

Truenamer should be the arcane caster :smallbiggrin:

I want it to be able to do at least something though. Haha. With a crappy arcane caster and a Truenamer, they'll both be bad, but they'll get to have more bad together for a little bit longer.

What ought to be considered the second worst arcane type class?

[hex0]

High point buy?

[skycycle blues]

High point buy?

Probably 7 rolls of 4d6. That's usually what I do for rolls when I DM.

[Human Paragon 3]

Truenamer should be the arcane caster.

The skill monkey... I want to say int-focused monk or soul knife. They can do most of what a rogue can, but worse, and without trap-finding.

Spell theif is another terrible choice.

[NNescio]

I want it to be able to do at least something though. Haha. With a crappy arcane caster and a Truenamer, they'll both be bad, but they'll get to have more bad together for a little bit longer.

What ought to be considered the second worst arcane type class?

Uh... Sorcerer with a gimped spell selection?

(Dancing Lights, Detect Poison, Erase, etc.)

Alternatively, try Magewright, an 'NPC' arcane caster class.

Also, the Healer might be a bit too strong once he gets his pet unicorn. Adept might work better.

[Gavinfoxx]

We need to get more Lurk or Divine Mind in there somehow.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Well, the four roles that should be filled are Skillmonkey, Arcane casting, Divine casting, and beatstick. Beatstick is obviously CW samurai with zero ranks in Intimidate, Divine is a Healer, and Arcane is Truenamer. Skillmonkey is a little less obvious, but CA ninja is probably your best bet.

Healer makes a really good (at least in my opinion) buffer if you know what you're doing.

[skycycle blues]

We need to get more Lurk or Divine Mind in there somehow.

Lurk. Yes.

[Lateral]

Wait, do you want to make the worst party possible, or a party that's an atrocity to everything we stand for? Because if it's the latter, then it should be made of a Divine Mind, a Soulborn, a CW samurai, a Truenamer, and a Monk. Everyone will hate you. :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

SKill Monkey, Monk

[Drelua]

Interesting. What other classes were involved? Twenty doesn't strike me as a blasting level.

Hmm...I remember the fighter well from the roleplaying, there was a half-dragon paladin, and I think there was a rogue DMPC and a cleric, but I'm not too sure about those two. My best work was with Fire Storm against a whole clan of Frost Giants, and Improved Spell Capacity was great when we got epic. I had a few levels of archmage just for more versatile exploding, especially once I got 10th level spells and started using Energy Admixtured Chain Lightning, sometimes with Sudden Maximize. Not optimal, but 40d6 of any energy type did the job pretty well when no one in the group was, and that was just my favourite of many spells.

[skycycle blues]

Wait, do you want to make the worst party possible, or a party that's an atrocity to everything we stand for? Because if it's the latter, then it should be made of a Divine Mind, a Soulborn, a CW samurai, a Truenamer, and a Monk. Everyone will hate you. :smalltongue:

Basically, for fun I would want to DM a group containing the worst possible classes for each party role, with the players playing them as best as they can, to see how long such a party lasts in a game session designed for a party of similarly leveled good classes in the same party roles.

[Greyfell]

so it's an endurance test of bad classes? :)

[Mockingbird]

Warmage is NOT a bad class. Warmage is broken, in my opinion. (That's with a 6th level warmage dealing 6d6+8 damage, with 28 AC in the party)

[Human Paragon 3]

Warmage is no wizard, but it's a fine class.

Truenamer is what you want for arcane caster.

Check out Zaq's truemaner guide book for how you can actually make one playable.

If you really don't want truenamer, I would say that battle sorcerer from unearted arcana might be the worst arcane caster, but even that would still be better than everything else you have.

Are you running this game on the forum? If so, I bet you'd find a lot of willing players. I'd be happy to play your skill monkey monk or arcane truenamer.

[NNescio]

Warmage is NOT a bad class. Warmage is broken, in my opinion. (That's with a 6th level warmage dealing 6d6+8 damage, with 28 AC in the party)

If Warmages are broken, then the ToB classes, the Bard, the Binder, the Factotum, the Beguiler, and the PsiWar would all be broken as well.

Which is to say, no.

[JaronK]

Truenamer's your best bet for "arcane" class. They can still function if they have some magic items at least. But yeah, Healer, Ninja, Truenamer, CW Samurai should be perfectly acceptable for this.

JaronK

[DrDeth]

Bard for Arcanist.

[Trasilor]

I think a skill monkey monk is still too good for this party. A skill monky fighter would be better. :smalltongue:

Better yet, just make a barbarian who thinks he is a theif. :smallamused:

[gkathellar]

Skillmonkey = Monk
Tank = CW Samurai
Arcane = Truenamer
Divine = Divine Mind (with a healing focus!)


Bard for Arcanist.

That would actually be pretty good, though. Bards are awesome.

[darksolitaire]

If Warmages are broken, then the ToB classes, the Bard, the Binder, the Factotum, the Beguiler, and the PsiWar would all be broken as well.

Which is to say, no.

I think broken in this occasion means that it can only properly do one thing: damage. But they can do a bit of control too...

Bard is pretty good for arcane caster, IMO. Perhaps Shadow Caster for arcanist if Truenamer doesn't cut it? Or warlock?

[Human Paragon 3]

Warlock would be too good, especially if given splat access. Shadowcaster could be good though, especially at low levels.

Hex Blade might make a "good" arcane choice, with a focus on CHA, but then he is not optimized, and still a better fighter than the samurai. hm.

[Greyfell]

not to start thew old, old argument again but Warmages are good blasters and blasting is about the least optimal thing to do with any caster.

what was that line? "Every tool in your bag is a hammer.... and you really dont need ten different hammers."

[hex0]

I demand more Dragon Compendium: :smallwink:

Skill Monkey: Mounteback
Frontliner: Battledancer

Also, it would be fun to make them take some 'down two' PRCS. Green Star Adept and Reaping Mauler

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer for arcane, applying Battle Sorcerer's drawback before Stalwart Sorcerer's drawback, for the following spells/day and spells known:

Spells per day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - -
3 5 4 - - - - - - - -
4 5 5 2 - - - - - - -
5 5 5 3 - - - - - - -
6 5 5 4 2 - - - - - -
7 5 5 5 3 - - - - - -
8 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - -
9 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - -
10 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - -
11 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - -
12 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - -
13 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - -
14 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - -
15 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - -
16 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 -
17 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 -
18 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
19 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
20 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4

Spells known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 2 1 - - - - - - - -
2 3 1 - - - - - - - -
3 4 1 - - - - - - - -
4 5 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
6 6 2 1 1 - - - - - -
7 6 4 1 1 - - - - - -
8 7 4 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 7 4 3 1 1 - - - - -
10 8 4 3 1 1 1 - - - -
11 8 4 4 3 1 1 - - - -
12 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 - - -
13 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 - - -
14 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 - -
15 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 - -
16 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 -
17 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 -
18 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

[Greyfell]

uhm. as much fun as that sounds, that still leaves you with a 3/4 BaB guy who can cast in (light) armor and has up to 9th level spells (although a very bad selection of them :) ). Also, he can use an effective weapon and has more hit points (d8+2 per level with no CON bumps)

Congratulations, it's still a Gish. :smallbiggrin: With some thought in spell selections, it'd still be terrifyingly effective.

[Little Brother]

Bard for Arcanist.

Bard>>>>Entire listed party

BTW, needs moar Paladin/Ranger

My vote goes to Shadowcaster, BTW.

[Dr.Epic]

Warrior-Samurai

http://i.animecrazy.net/samurai_champloo_002.jpg

I hope you realize you just made a powerful enemy.

[sonofzeal]

Warmage is NOT a bad class. Warmage is broken, in my opinion. (That's with a 6th level warmage dealing 6d6+8 damage, with 28 AC in the party)
Uhhhh...

Well, 28 average damage isn't bad, but it's only a few times a day, and a lvl 6 party can expect to face things with over twice that in hp.

Meanwhil, a Fighter with a mere +1 Greatsword can be doing the same average damage on a single power attack, all day long. Use Shocktrooper for accuracy. Or heck, his full attack is easily sitting close to that even without Power Attack, if he hits with both. And that's not a limited resource.

Not to mention, we're one level away from Clerics getting Lesser Planar Ally and the insane abuses it enables - like nigh-infinite wealth from exploiting the Nightmare's at-will Astral Projection ability.

But you're worried about a Warmage blowing spellslots to do the same damage that a Fighter can put out every round? Your standard of "broken" is, to put it bluntly, broken.

[Tr011]

+1 for Shadowcaster or Truenamer. They got style and kinda suck (even if I'm not sure for Truenamer).
Also, Monk is good for a skill monkey, but misses the sneaky part.

[Morph Bark]

Better yet, just make a barbarian who thinks he is a theif. :smallamused:

Amusingly enough, a Barbarian can be made into an equally good trapfinder, an almost-as-good trap disabler, an equally good stealthmonkey and a better damage dealer (albeit his damage dealing will likely not be stealthy).


Stalwart Battle Sorcerer for arcane, applying Battle Sorcerer's drawback before Stalwart Sorcerer's drawback, for the following spells/day and spells known:

Better yet, double up on the Battle part, get d12 HD and Full BAB, lose two spells from each level.

[Tr011]

Amusingly enough, a Barbarian can be made into an equally good trapfinder, an almost-as-good trap disabler, an equally good stealthmonkey and a better damage dealer (albeit his damage dealing will likely not be stealthy).

Is there any Handbook/Guide/Thread/Build about this? Would like to see this xD

[skycycle blues]

http://i.animecrazy.net/samurai_champloo_002.jpg

I hope you realize you just made a powerful enemy.

Hey, it's not my fault that the Samurai class is terrible. I would love if it weren't.

[nedz]

4x Dragon Shamens - This class can fill all four roles quite badly.:smallbiggrin:

[TroubleBrewing]

Hey, it's not my fault that the Samurai class is terrible. I would love if it weren't.

It isn't terrible, it's just spelled W-A-R-B-L-A-D-E.

[Amphetryon]

Beatstick: CW Samurai
Divine Caster: Divine Mind (level 6 means it actually HAS a mantle, anyway)
Skillmonkey: Lurk
Arcane Caster: Shadowcaster
Gish: Truenamer
Scout: Monk

That should do it. :smallyuk:

[Zombimode]

Is the Shadowcaster really that bad?
I only skimmed over it but it looked quite ok.
Could someone elaborate on the presumed suckines of the Shadowcaster?

My take for the worst party:

Beatstick: Soulborn
Divine Magic/beatstick: Divine Mind
Arcane Gish: Wizard/Samurai/Havoc Mage/Green Star Adept (CL 9 at level 20; worse than Fighter10/Wizard10 :smallbiggrin: )
Scout: Soulknife
Skill Monkey: Monk

[skycycle blues]

Is the Shadowcaster really that bad?
I only skimmed over it but it looked quite ok.
Could someone elaborate on the presumed suckines of the Shadowcaster?

My take for the worst party:

Beatstick: Soulborn
Divine Magic/beatstick: Divine Mind
Arcane Gish: Wizard/Samurai/Havoc Mage/Green Star Adept (CL 9 at level 20; worse than Fighter10/Wizard10 :smallbiggrin: )
Scout: Soulknife
Skill Monkey: Monk

Right, I looked over Shadowcaster and it looks like a decent caster that can get Time Stop, although I think it can only use it once per day. That's gotta be at least as good as Beguiler right? And that's what, Tier 3?

[The Glyphstone]

The Shadowcaster is usually T4 because it's so incredibly limited in uses/day of its abilities, despite their varied nature.

[skycycle blues]

The Shadowcaster is usually T4 because it's so incredibly limited in uses/day of its abilities, despite their varied nature.

I guess that makes sense. It must just look better to me than it actually is. I still want to try it out sometime though.

[Kenneth]

I might be completely wrong in this but I am pretty sure that when WoTC made 3/3.5 they kinda thought the playstyle woudl just proceed as teh same from 2nd ed

so they expected arcance types to be blasters and divine types to be heal bots and made the vast majority of advntures and everything else they did with that in mind.

so making a party of classes that are 'worse' in terms of ease of optimization is not going to make them fail, IF you take them through published and unaltered adventures/campaigns.

If you optimize the enemies they face at all yeah thy will probably fail.

Unless they are good players and come up with some good ideas.


case in point I played a battle mage ( int based war mage minus armor wearingand weapon selection) and was able to solo a a 10 CR encounter not due to any class mechanics BUT to innovative thinking.

[The Glyphstone]

I guess that makes sense. It must just look better to me than it actually is. I still want to try it out sometime though.

It's got some fun powers, it just runs out of juice way too fast.

[Amphetryon]

It's got some fun powers, it just runs out of juice way too fast.

On the plus side, I seem to recall the designer making a decent suggestion for a fix, and I know it gets a ton of love from the homebrew section, because people WANT it to be a cool idea that doesn't fail.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, the four roles that should be filled are Skillmonkey, Arcane casting, Divine casting, and beatstick. Beatstick is obviously CW samurai with zero ranks in Intimidate, Divine is a Healer, and Arcane is Truenamer. Skillmonkey is a little less obvious, but CA ninja is probably your best bet.Nah. Use a Ranger as the skillmonkey.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warmage is NOT a bad class. Warmage is broken, in my opinion. (That's with a 6th level warmage dealing 6d6+8 damage, with 28 AC in the party)

Heh. Warmage. Broken in the overpowered sense. No Fly. No Overland Flight. No Polymorph. No Divine Power. No Righteous Might. No Protection From Alignment. No Grease. No Web. No Summon spells. No Blur. No Mirror Image. No Displacement. No Stoneskin. No Invisibility. No Haste. No Greater Invisibility. No Baleful Polymorph. Do they have Cloudkill or Wall of Force at least?

@Jack_Smith: Trapfinding variant from Dungeonscape. The worst skillmonkey is still ninja.

[hex0]

@Jack_Smith: Trapfinding variant from Dungeonscape. The worst skillmonkey is still ninja.

Which ninja is worse? CA or Rokugan.

edit: Looked it up. Rokugan Ninja actually isnt terrible. It is like the sneak attack fighter variant that actually gets a few class features....

Also, I think Mounteback may be worse.

[ericgrau]

Warrior, adept, adept, expert? :P

Scouts make pretty good skill monkeys but without the standard tricks they're pretty lousy combatants.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Which ninja is worse? CA or Rokugan.

edit: Looked it up. Rokugan Ninja actually isnt terrible. It is like the sneak attack fighter variant that actually gets a few class features....
I've heard good (or at least, decent) things about Rokugan Ninja.

Also, I think Mounteback may be worse.

Your capstone is you turn into an NPC!

[hex0]

Warrior, adept, adept, expert? :P

Scouts make pretty good skill monkeys but without the standard tricks they're pretty lousy combatants.

Scout is tier 4, actually.

For my money the worst team is

CW Samurai
Truenamer
Mounteback
healer

[The Glyphstone]

I've heard good (or at least, decent) things about Rokugan Ninja.

Your capstone is you turn into an NPC!

What is this Mounteback class and why does it turn you into an NPC? Is it like the Risen Martyr?

[Hiro Protagonest]

What is this Mounteback class and why does it turn you into an NPC? Is it like the Risen Martyr?

It's from Dragon Magazine. In the "favorite capstone" thread, someone mentioned it. Apparently you make a deal with an archdevil or demon lord, because at level 20, you gain the half-fiend template and become an NPC who serves the fiend loyally.

[ericgrau]

Scout is tier 4, actually.

Ok but try them without teleporting / 10 foot step full attacks...

[Lans]

4x Dragon Shamens - This class can fill all four roles quite badly.:smallbiggrin:

4 Divine Minds

[Little Brother]

Make fighter the arcane :P.

You can get 9th level spells at I think level 12, and still suck.

[Tr011]

The Shadowcaster is usually T4 because it's so incredibly limited in uses/day of its abilities, despite their varied nature.

Someone in my party played one. They really are kinda crappy, you are very limited in uses/day, but also very limited in diffrent uss at all (you just get 2 spells known/spell level and 1 use/day for each good one, 2 uses/day for the spells 3 levels under your MAX and 3 uses/day for the spells 6 levels under your MAX).
Oh, and you have to choose packages of spells, so no free choices on your spells.

Btw, Mounteback is in the Dragon Compendium, too. And I don't think you should decide what class to choose for a lvl5 campaign based on their capstone. A Mounteback is basically a rogue without trap sense, evasion and that stuff, less sneak attack, but they can sneak attack ANYONE. Even crit immune, constructs, undead... Finally you are moderately useful in EVERY fight.
And they get spell-like abilities (useful stuff like Alter Self).

If the Mounteback makes use of her spell-like-abilities AND finds a good way to feint - it easily outshines any monk or Shadowcaster.

It sounds btw really crappy to give someone NPC classes because you can't find real classes. Or you really want only NPC classes (Warrior as beatstick, expert as Skillmonkey and Adept...) but the topic didn't seem like that was the goal.
I'd take Samurai, Shadowcaster, Truenamer, Monk, Ninja (from CW), Spellthief and that kind of classes.

[gkathellar]

BTW, needs moar Paladin/Ranger

What? Rangers aren't super-excellent, mind you, but they're pretty solid.


I've heard good (or at least, decent) things about Rokugan Ninja.

It does a really excellent job of doing what it's supposed to do — be a stealthy character with good mobility and reasonable assassination skills. Not really an expert combatant, but Rokugan doesn't expect that out of its ninja.

[Little Brother]

What? Rangers aren't super-excellent, mind you, but they're pretty solid.



It does a really excellent job of doing what it's supposed to do — be a stealthy character with good mobility and reasonable assassination skills. Not really an expert combatant, but Rokugan doesn't expect that out of its ninja.ARCHER Ranger, I mean.

[Amphetryon]

ARCHER Ranger, I mean.

Archer Rangers do just fine at their role, and have good PrC and feat support relative to their strengths. They don't compete with arcane spell-slingers in the ranged damage department, but that's not an especially fair comparison.

[gkathellar]

ARCHER Ranger, I mean.

You mean those guys who get all those spells that make them better at archery?

[Lans]

Someone in my party played one. They really are kinda crappy, you are very limited in uses/day, but also very limited in diffrent uss at all (you just get 2 spells known/spell level and 1 use/day for each good one, 2 uses/day for the spells 3 levels under your MAX and 3 uses/day for the spells 6 levels under your MAX).
Oh, and you have to choose packages of spells, so no free choices on your spells.
I tend to think of them as on a curve starting at 5 and curving to 3 at the highest levels with them being around 4 at 6+.

Warrior Samurai/Soulknife
Divine-Healer
Arcane Magewright/shadow caster
Skill monkey-Expert or ninja
Fifth Wheel- Divine Mind or dragon shaman
DMPC Truenamer or aristocrat

[noparlpf]

I personally enjoy playing Truenamers and Healers.
I hate the Samurai, though. Pure Fighter (or the Kensai variant, or a generic Warrior) works better.

[gkathellar]

Divine-Healer

Generally a good pick for an awful divine caster, but you have to figure out some way to keep them from casting Gate as a ninth-level spell.

[Barstro]

Generally a good pick for an awful divine caster, but you have to figure out some way to keep them from casting Gate as a ninth-level spell.

DM: "You cannot cast Gate as a ninth-level spell" :smallsmile:

If the goal is to make it difficult for the players early on, but give them a chance to get back into mediocrity, have the DM select race/class/skills/Feats that would be great for the wrong setting. Make a crappy little group that could have done well in caverns fighting trolls, but now they are in a world that is pure swamp where 5% of the plants create localized AMFs.

[Tyndmyr]

I have an idea for a game I would want to DM, probably as a one-shot, just to see how it goes. I want to see how long a party of say level 6, with each character in the worst class possible for their party role, would last in a session designed for an average party of the same level.

Four-five players.
Warrior-Samurai
Divine-Healer

Arcane-Warmage?
Skill Monkey-not sure

And for fun, throw in a Truenamer.

What do you think?

Honestly, this party, if built decently, would wreck stuff. However, they would be utterly inflexible. Keep in mind that low tier isn't the same as low power. A healer can be built to be a pretty fantastic healbot. They are nothing like a cleric, since they don't have all the other goodies a cleric does, but they can fill the healing role extremely solidly.

Likewise, a decently built warmage can blast with style. A samurai isn't great, but is on par with a meh fighter with a slightly higher WBL. WBL is potent if used well. A Truenamer would be the most flexible of the lot, and if well built, might end up being the star of the party. Healing, nuking, and the occasion buff/debuff?

Yeah, I'd gladly play the truenamer in this party.

Edit: And yes, you'd have TWO party members casting gate at level 20. This would be filled with win.

[Tr011]

Honestly, this party, if built decently, would wreck stuff. However, they would be utterly inflexible. Keep in mind that low tier isn't the same as low power. A healer can be built to be a pretty fantastic healbot. They are nothing like a cleric, since they don't have all the other goodies a cleric does, but they can fill the healing role extremely solidly.

Likewise, a decently built warmage can blast with style. A samurai isn't great, but is on par with a meh fighter with a slightly higher WBL. WBL is potent if used well. A Truenamer would be the most flexible of the lot, and if well built, might end up being the star of the party. Healing, nuking, and the occasion buff/debuff?

Yeah, I'd gladly play the truenamer in this party.

Edit: And yes, you'd have TWO party members casting gate at level 20. This would be filled with win.

Remember that the Truenamer will cast this alot/day xD
But it's the only powerful Utterance he got, the rest is mediocre.

[Tyndmyr]

Remember that the Truenamer will cast this alot/day xD
But it's the only powerful Utterance he got, the rest is mediocre.

I disagree. Large quantities of fast healing is pretty useful. The ability to just ignore SR with absolutely everything is also pretty epic.

Sure, freebie gates are the MOST powerful, but he's got some pretty useful toys.

[gkathellar]

A healer can be built to be a pretty fantastic healbot.

Healers don't even get Vigor! In-combat healing is terrible!


A Truenamer would be the most flexible of the lot, and if well built, might end up being the star of the party. Healing, nuking, and the occasion buff/debuff?

Yeah, I'd gladly play the truenamer in this party.

You need to read Zaq's thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269)

[Incanur]

Honestly, this party, if built decently, would wreck stuff. However, they would be utterly inflexible. Keep in mind that low tier isn't the same as low power.

Agreed. With high-end feats, spells, and items in the mix, this party could end up rather deadly.

[Tyndmyr]

Healers don't even get Vigor! In-combat healing is terrible!



You need to read Zaq's thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269)

I've built them and seen them in action. I don't need to read about how something doesn't work that I, personally, made work.

They require a fair degree of skill point pumping, true. The good news is, in D&D, this is a very easy thing. But that is quite literally all you have to do to make them functional. You do that, and you taken quicken, and you're suddenly rocking, with the ability to pretty much destroy anything with typeless no SR damage that requires no save or attack rolls.

[gkathellar]

And you managed to do this without using item familiars? :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Could you do a thread like his then, showing how yours worked so well in game? It would be interesting to see the conditions under which the class actually worked for you.

JaronK

[Tyndmyr]

And you managed to do this without using item familiars? :smallconfused:

Yes, as it happens. I dislike them, as they're a touch arbitrary and imbalanced. No, the standard skill boosts. Feats, items, int boosting, spells...that's adequate to get you to quite effective levels.

Last time it was brought up in a truenamer discussion, I posted a breakdown of bonuses. It was rather brutally derailed by people claiming that masterwork items were custom items and that I should be assuming elite array instead of things like point buy. Apparently, a lot of people are heavily invested in the idea that this class cannot be made to work.

[sonofzeal]

In-combat healing is terrible!
Having played a Healer with high Cha and Augment Healing... this bit of "common wisdom" is flawed in practice. A dedicated healer can pretty much undo anything a monster did on its turn. I could heal as much damage as the monster could deal in a turn. I could remove any status affliction the monster could dish out, in as much time. Effectively, I could trade my actions for its actions, allowing the rest of the team to dominate it. Team Adventurer usually has an action advantage over Team Monster anyway (barring hordes, which tend to be individually pathetic), so the Healer trading action-for-action against the monster actually works out pretty well.

Yes, a Wizard could do it better, plenty of Wizard spells effectively deprive the monster of more actions than it took the Wizard to cast it. Yes, the Healer is depending on the rest of the party to actually take down the monster. Yes Clerics are better.

But the Healer can contribute meaningfully round-by-round in your average battle.

[nedz]

Its a shame you're pitching it at 5th level, thats not quite high enough to get into Dwarven Defender (for the beat stick) or Arcane Archer (for the Arcanist).

You could just make them all use the standard array - A 5th level Wizard with 12 Int (11 +1 from 4th level) would be quite a challange - to play.

[Doug Lampert]

Yes, as it happens. I dislike them, as they're a touch arbitrary and imbalanced. No, the standard skill boosts. Feats, items, int boosting, spells...that's adequate to get you to quite effective levels.

Last time it was brought up in a truenamer discussion, I posted a breakdown of bonuses. It was rather brutally derailed by people claiming that masterwork items were custom items and that I should be assuming elite array instead of things like point buy. Apparently, a lot of people are heavily invested in the idea that this class cannot be made to work.

A thing people miss about Zaq's threads, and I really don't know how they miss it. Is that he also made it work. He claims it didn't work well, but he deliberately avoided item familiar and he still made it work.

DougL

[maximus25]

If it's the worst party ever, just make them all rangers with two weapon fighting focus.

[Gavinfoxx]

If it's the worst party ever, just make them all rangers with two weapon fighting focus.

What's wrong with that? Greatsword and armor spikes works fine...

[hex0]

What? Rangers aren't super-excellent, mind you, but they're pretty solid.



It does a really excellent job of doing what it's supposed to do — be a stealthy character with good mobility and reasonable assassination skills. Not really an expert combatant, but Rokugan doesn't expect that out of its ninja.

Agree on Rangers!

Rokugan Ninja has full BAB though and full sneak attack. It is basically the Sneak Attack Fighter but it actually has abilities/feats on the odd numbered levels. :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

If it's the worst party ever, just make them all rangers with two weapon fighting focus.
The crit-fishers would like to have a word with you.

Agree on Rangers!

Rokugan Ninja has full BAB though and full sneak attack. It is basically the Sneak Attack Fighter but it actually has abilities/feats on the odd numbered levels. :smallbiggrin:

You mean the even-numbered levels. You get rogue SA progression as a SA fighter, not +1d6 every time you would get a fighter bonus feat.

[Mockingbird]

If Warmages are broken, then the ToB classes, the Bard, the Binder, the Factotum, the Beguiler, and the PsiWar would all be broken as well.

Which is to say, no.

The warmage in my party is broken, at least.

[gkathellar]

Rokugan Ninja has full BAB though and full sneak attack. It is basically the Sneak Attack Fighter but it actually has abilities/feats on the odd numbered levels. :smallbiggrin:

Uh ... no, the Ninja Spy gets average BAB, all good saves, +3d6 total sneak attack, and a host of cool but non-optimal abilities.

[Daftendirekt]

Uh ... no, the Ninja Spy gets average BAB, all good saves, +3d6 total sneak attack, and a host of cool but non-optimal abilities.

Rokugan ninja is a base class. We are not talking about the PrC from Oriental Adventures. Nice try, though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The warmage in my party is broken, at least.

6d6+8 damage at 6th level? Level 6 human spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian with Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. Plus Extra Rage for a whirling frenzy every combat. Gets three attacks (two at -2, one at -7, but the strength boost from whirling frenzy offsets the penalties, so at normal attack bonus) on a charge, +9 from 22 strength (18+4), +1 from magic weapon, and +18 from Power Attack+Leap Attack, with no penalty on attack roll from Shock Trooper. Assuming a +1 greatsword, his attack routine on a charge is this: +13/+13/+8, for 2d6+25 per attack. Assume 2/3 hit (at this level, dragons have AC at about 20, so he's hitting them 65% of the time with his first two, and 40% with his third), for 4d6+50 damage on a charge.

On a normal full attack while in frenzy, he still gets +11/+11/+6, for 2d6+7 damage on each attack, for 4d6+14 assuming 2/3 hit.

And this? This build is worse than a warblade 6, crusader 6, or psychic warrior 6. It's not even close to as versatile as factotum and swordsage. Bard is better with good spell selection. A well-played rogue (or rogue/swashbuckler for more HP and attack bonus, with Daring Outlaw) that's flanking with the melee guy is getting an extra 3d6+6 (extra 6 from Craven, adds your level to SA) damage per attack, with TWF style bringing his number of attacks up (he only has two attacks at this level, but he'll get a third at 7th).

[noparlpf]

Rokugan ninja is a base class. We are not talking about the PrC from Oriental Adventures. Nice try, though.

What book is that from? I only knew of Oriental Adventures for Rokugan in 3.5.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What book is that from? I only knew of Oriental Adventures for Rokugan in 3.5.

Rokugan D20, I believe.

[Incanur]

And this? This build is worse than a warblade 6, crusader 6, or psychic warrior 6.

Not at directly dealing damage, it ain't. The pouncing barbarian might only do one thing, but it does it awfully well. I don't think any class can dish out more to the dome at level six without shenanigans like explosive runes bombs.