New to 3.5 - Cleric Build advise

[Gerd]

Good morning all. With 30+ years of off and on roleplaying I will be joining a 3.5 campaign for the first time. All source books are valid.

For good or bad, or I should say for mainly neutral good, I have decided on an Aasimar Cleric - Pelor.

Focus - Healer, Undead range or melee fighter
Core rolls - 18/17/17/15/14/12
Domains - Glory/Sun

I will start as a Cleric 1 and at 1,000 xp will need to pick up Aasimar racial level to gain the +2 wisdom, daylight, and resistances.

At 3,000xp will pick up Cleric 2 and so on.

Looking for a solid cleric build that can hold his own and support the group. Player count is 7, no other healer in the group.

[Eldariel]

You might want to consider "Lesser Aasimar" from Player's Guide to Faerun. It has the same racial abilities as standard Aasimar (distinct from the savage progression) but loses out on the Outsider-type (becoming Humanoid (Native) instead so both, Humanoid- and Outsider-affecting spells affect him) and has no level adjustment in exchange.

This would help considerably since being a level behind on a spellcaster is painful (due to spell levels). The weaknesses of the Humanoid-type are annoying but nothing unbearable. This way you would level at the same pace as everyone else.


You'll probably want to simply go Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor -> Radiant Servant is solid and does pretty much what it sounds like you want. On level 11 you could go into Contemplative to finish out. Both Radiant Servant of Pelor and Contemplative are in Complete Divine.

On healing, you won't have enough spell slots to keep everyone full HP (not to mention it's more efficient to use your spellslots to prevent injury if possible). Coax the party into investing your combined funds into a "Wand of Cure Light Wounds" or even better, "Wand of Lesser Vigor" [Spell Compendium] for out-of-combat healing. They only cost 750gp and one Wand of Cure Light Wounds packs 275 points of healing on average; plenty to keep the party fully healed out of combat for a long time. Wand of Lesser Vigor would have 550 points of healing though it takes a longer time to heal up with. Still, it's obviously the more efficient of the two.

This has the advantage of not being limited by your spellslots, and allowing you to dedicate your spellslots for combat magic. Also, in case you get knocked out the party Rogue can Use Magic Device with the Wands to heal you up so the party isn't AWOL in that case.


On build...well, becoming a combat machine is rather doable as Cleric. You could use "Divine Metamagic" [Complete Divine] to mitigate Metamagic spell level costs with Turn Undead instead. You could use this in conjunction with "Persistent Spell" [Complete Arcane] to invest 7 Turn Undead uses to make one spell last 24 hours. You could pick up the feat "Extra Turning" twice or so for extra uses of Turn Undead for this purpose. Later on you could also purchase "Reliquary Holy Symbol" [Magic Item Compendium] or Nightsticks [Libris Mortis] for extra uses. This could be used in conjunction with self-buffs or group buffs (Divine Favor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, et cetera). Either way, you're pretty well off.

Do note that on low levels, combat is mostly about your stats, with 17 Strength you're more than fine in combat. I'd put your stats:

18 Wisdom (all level-up points go here)
17 Strength
17 Charisma
15 Constitution
14 Intelligence
12 Dexterity

You could also be middle-aged. This would give you +1 to all mental stats and -1 to all physical stats. For a Cleric, it's not really unreasonable to be a bit older. The rules for this are on page 109 of the Player's Handbook. That would leave you with:

19 Wisdom (21 with racials)
18 Charisma (20 with racials)
16 Strength
15 Intelligence
14 Constitution
11 Dexterity

This would probably ultimately be stronger. It would definitely help you with turning Undead without hurting you much at all.

[Douglas]

Radiant Servant of Pelor from Complete Divine is an absolutely perfect fit for you, so go for that. Some of its benefits only work if you have the Healing domain, though, so you should probably switch domains to Healing/Sun. You'll get Glory back at class level 5 (character level 11).

If you take the Healing domain, you should also take the Domain Spontaneity alternate class feature from Player's Handbook 2. This replaces your ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells with the ability to spontaneously cast spells from one of your domains. Pick the Healing domain for the spontaneous one. At low levels, this makes no difference. At high levels, it gets you spontaneous casting of Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) and Mass Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/healMass.htm). Also, depending on DM interpretation, it may get your Radiant Servant of Pelor healing boosts to apply to all Cures you cast rather than just the ones from your domain slots.

Divine Metamagic, especially in combination with Persistent Spell, is an extremely powerful option - so much so that you should check with your DM about whether that magnitude of power is appropriate for his group before taking it. In addition to asking about DMM (Persist) in general, make sure to ask specifically about the possibility of unlimited out-of-combat healing for the whole party (Persistent Mass Lesser Vigor, achievable at level 5), and his opinion on whether "touch" counts as a "fixed" range for Persistent Spell's requirement.

If you decide the Outsider type is worth it, or your DM disallows Lesser Aasimar, ask your DM if he'll allow Level adjustment buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

The rest of Eldariel's advice is pretty good as is.

[kestrel404]

First, I highly recommend the 'lesser aasimar' race as well. If that's not an option, strongly considder not being an aasimar at all. Level adjustment is very bad for a cleric.

As you are sole and primary healer for a large group, look into ways of healing without using your spells - a cleric that only casts healing spells is a boring cleric. A couple of nice tricks (clear these with your GM first, as some of them are considdered too strong) would be:
Divine Metamagic Persist on Mass Lesser Vigor (This one won't work until you can cast mass lesser vigor and requires 3 feats - Extend Spell, Persist Spell and Divine Metamagic for Persist Spell, but that 3 feat combo is easily the most powerful cleric combo in the game). However, this will let you cast Mass Lesser Vigor on your entire party at the beginning of each day and have it last all day, making out-of-combat healing pretty much automatic.
Draconic Aura (Vigor) - This requires only 1 feat, and gives you a healing aura that will grants fast healing 1 to anyone within 30' of you, if they are below 1/2 their HP. The Draconic Aura feat is in Dragon Magic and the Vigor aura is on the Dragon Shaman aura list in the PHBII. This can be picked up as early as level 1, if the DM allows.

Hope that helps.

[Gerd]

Strongly considering going human cleric - considering this is my first 3.5 character and the options are overwelming - why complicate the process with a unique race.

[kestrel404]

Strongly considering going human cleric - considering this is my first 3.5 character and the options are overwelming - why complicate the process with a unique race.

It's a good plan. You've already got good stats, no need for the stat bumps.

Wis > Str > Cha > Con > Int > Dex should be the stat order. You may rank Cha lower if you're not planning on using the turn attempts for something useful (using them to actually turn undead is pretty much worthless).

[Eldariel]

Strongly considering going human cleric - considering this is my first 3.5 character and the options are overwelming - why complicate the process with a unique race.

Human is an incredibly strong choice too. The primary advantage Aasimar would have is a bonus to your casting stat which would give you an extra level 1 spell on 1st character level (which obviously, when you only have a total of 3 spells otherwise, is immense). That and bonus to your Charisma would of course improve your turning.

But either is fine; all the advice I provided remains the same.


Wis > Str > Cha > Con > Int > Dex should be the stat order. You may rank Cha lower if you're not planning on using the turn attempts for something useful (using them to actually turn undead is pretty much worthless).

His Greater Turning has turning covered anyways, especially after Radiant Servant of Pelor where you get it 3+Cha times per day. Turn Undead isn't worthless but it requires a lot of investment to truly make it shine. Greater Turning is far easier, at that.

[Escheton]

Linkytime: Cleric handbook 3.5 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)
Healing op-fu, and why dedicated healers aren't needed. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal))

With these in mind and a starting 18 in wisdom, netting you a +5 to your spell dc at lvl 1 you can have lotsa fun with melee and offencive casting, aka proactive healing. Commanding the ogre, or holding the hobgoblin warleader can save you quite a few potential midcombat rescue-heals.

Also, have you considered Favored Soul?
Those stats would make quite a good one.
Depending on the deity you chose you could be running around with a greatsword or spiked chain, with free weapon focus at lvl 3.
No DMM shenanigans due to lack of turns, but also no regret in preparation and use of your spells. Less need for calculating how many restorations you will likely need that day and more casual spell-lobbing.

[Gerd]

So does persist override a spells max. duration?

For example Mass Lesser Vigor is maxed at 25 rounds w/persist is the 25 rounds over the course of a full day or does persist over ride the 25 rounds?

Will asked our DM tonight but how is this normally interpretted?

[Escheton]

Usually duration caps are ignored in this case, partly due to the type of players that play DMM characters. And partly because few players notice.
Not sure how what the status quo for handling this is. Let alone the raw.

[Douglas]

IIRC, Mass Lesser Vigor has a Duration line that says "10 rounds + 1 round/level, to a maximum of 25 rounds". Persistent Spell replaces ALL of that - the entire Duration line - with "24 hours". So yes, it does override MLV's maximum.

[Ayedi_Star]

So does persist override a spells max. duration?

For example Mass Lesser Vigor is maxed at 25 rounds w/persist is the 25 rounds over the course of a full day or does persist over ride the 25 rounds?

Will asked our DM tonight but how is this normally interpretted?

Persist overwrites the duration to a flat 24 hours, constantly in effect (so vigor every round, not 25 rounds over a day) which is what makes it so powerful when combined with useful, short-duration combat buffs and other spells.

[Escheton]

Divine magician allows you to persist arcane spells like critical strike. Which is awesome if you will be in melee yourself.
Linky: Divine Magician Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8344.0)

[hex0]

Linkytime:
Also, have you considered Favored Soul?
Those stats would make quite a good one.


Favored Soul wouldn't work well since they don't turn undead...

I'd do Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 2/Radiant Servant 10/whatever 3

Might want to squeeze in Prestige Paladin 3 if your CHA is decent.

[Escheton]

Well, the OP didnt say anything about turning undead. Thats just where normal cleric advice tends to go.
A favored soul can also be very well catered to undead destruction.

[Keld Denar]

Radiant Servant is kinda lackluster after level 5, so I'd suggest PrCing out of your PrC at that point. I've always been fond of the build: Cleric6/RSoP5/SacredExorcist9, possibly swapping a level of SacEx for Contemplative if you want the extra domain. SacEx is Cleric+. It gets d8 HD, full casting AND turning, and a few other goodies.

Now, a lot of people here don't value turning (used for turning), but you can really have some fun with it. It doesn't take much to jack your turning into the low stratisphere, and its mostly item based which doesn't put a whole lot of restrictions on you build-wise.

The really cool thing to do with turning, IMO, is to cast Turn Anathema (CChampion, Cleric2 spell), which allows you to turn outsiders as well as undead, so long as one component of their alignment opposes one of yours. As a RSoP, you'll probably be NG, which means you'll be able to turn any and all [Evil] outsiders with that spell. Since most outsiders scale about 1:1 on HD vs CR, they are MUCH easier to turn than undead (which scale 3:1 HD/CR for intelligent undead and 4:1 HD/CR for mindless undead). You can't dust them with a greater turning, but making them paniced with no save is pretty sexy. Its not hard to kit out a level 10 cleric who can turn a BALOR on a crappy roll, which is always fun. Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), or a Lesser Rod of Quicken (DMG), or just take Quicken Spell or Quicken Turning to allow you to do both the spell and the turning in the same round for maximum juju.

[hex0]

Well, the OP didnt say anything about turning undead. Thats just where normal cleric advice tends to go.
A favored soul can also be very well catered to undead destruction.

Radiant Servant gets both healing and undead killing abilities, though.

Also, Favored Souls don't start with turning so they have to get turning somewhere else and then take extra turning and then take radiant servant. Too much work...

[Escheton]

again, stuck on advice given by people. Favored Soul is actually a class worth taking to 20. Furthermore they apply for divine classes that require turning, due to a fix in complete champion, I believe.

Given the prefered domains in the OP radiant servant is quite nice though.

[RelentlessImp]

You might want to consider "Lesser Aasimar" from Player's Guide to Faerun. It has the same racial abilities as standard Aasimar (distinct from the savage progression) but loses out on the Outsider-type (becoming Humanoid (Native) instead so both, Humanoid- and Outsider-affecting spells affect him) and has no level adjustment in exchange.


Minor nitpick: the type is actually Humanoid (Planetouched).


again, stuck on advice given by people. Favored Soul is actually a class worth taking to 20. Furthermore they apply for divine classes that require turning, due to a fix in complete champion, I believe.


Favored Soul is only a class worth taking to 20 if you don't mind the split between Charisma and Wisdom for your spells. Spirit Shaman is a better option there, because they're a prepared spontaneous caster - that is, they pick X spells per spell level then can cast them spontaneously. Changing the Favored Soul to that would be better.

[Gerd]

Update

DM has indicated that persist, as powerful as it is, is allowed and will work as it has been outlined here. I am intriqued by picking up the Extend feat (for free) wth the Planning Domain.

Change to -

Red Knight Diety - Lawful Good/Cleric - Planning and War Domain

I realize that a cleric can have more impact than just in combat healing. I still would like to have some good powers related to undead turning - can I add Radiant servant of Pelor later even with a different Diety.


Thoughts. What feats would you pick up out of the box if you went this route?

[Escheton]

The red knight is a deity of perfect strategy. Hence it might be difficult to convince your dm to change the deity requirements of a very lightbased anti-undead prestige.

Ruby Knight Vindicator however is very much suited for such a deity.

Seeing DMM is allowed, and you will be running around with Divine Powah on all the time as soon as you hit lvl 7 lets see if we can up your melee/ranged viability.
Seeing you are a cleric, and likely to stomp around in full plate armor, your lowest score of 12 will go to dex.
Which will give your cleric a whopping 14 or 15 in int.

Now, usually skillpoints mean little on a cleric.
Heal and concentration and you are basically set.

Knowledge Devotion (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1727-knowledge-devotion.html) however makes good use of those extra skillpoints.

Cloistered cleric, a variant found in Unearthed Arcana and also on the srd:Cleric Variant: Cloistered Cleric
The cloistered cleric spends more time than other clerics in study and prayer and less in martial training. He gives up some of the cleric's combat prowess in exchange for greater skill access and a wider range of spells devoted to knowledge (and the protection of knowledge).

Most cloistered clerics are nonchaotic, since they believe that a disciplined lifestyle lends itself better to learning.

Hit Die
The cloistered cleric uses a d6 for his Hit Die (and has hit points at 1st level equal to 6 + Con modifier).

Base Attack Bonus
The cloistered cleric's lack of martial training means that he uses the poor base attack bonus.

Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Class Features
The cloistered cleric has all the standard cleric class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Cloistered clerics are proficient with simple weapons and with light armor.

Lore (Ex)
Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells
Most cloistered clerics worship deities associated with knowledge and learning.

In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains.

Spellcasting
Add the following spells to the cloistered cleric's class spell list: 0—message; 1st—erase, identify, unseen servant; 2nd—fox's cunning; 3rd—illusory script, secret page, tongues (reduced from 4th level); 4th—detect scrying; 6th—analyze dweomer; 7th—sequester; 9th—vision. makes this extra viable. As you can trade in the knowledge domain, for the knowledge devotion, as described in Complete Champion.
The skill-trick 'Collector of Stories" ,found in Complete Scoundrel I believe, will give 1 such knowledge check per encounter a +5 boost for the investment of 2 skillpoints.
All of this will make your booksmart strategist a beast in combat.

And thats without getting to feats even...