Amnesia and Rediscovery in a Campaign [D&D 3.5].

[Elric VIII]

NOTE TO MY PLAYERS: STAY OUT

So, I have an excellent idea for a campaign: The players are responsible for some cataclysmic event in the past that renders the world a post-apocalyptic wasteland. For this they are sealed in some sort of temporal prison/modified Imprisonment spell and their memories of the activities are forcibly removed. This marks the start of the campaign.

They players are led to believe that they were once heroes and trapped away by some evil overlord and they are trying to recover their memories. Said memories are missing from the point where they first met, up to their imprisonment, although they retain a sense of time passed between meeting and memory-wipe (but not time in the prison); they retain a sense of knowing each other but the particulars are not known.

I want some way of reconstructing their memories in-game such that I am not telling their characters what they did. My idea is to have them act out the memories themselves as they learn them.

For example: As an ancient oracle begins to despense to them a bit of their story I allow the characters to take over their past-selves and act it out as a mini-adventure. As for ECL, they will (conveniently) be tracing their memories at the same rate they are levelling up.

I would like some suggestions on how to make this work better from any experienced DMs. Some things that might need to be addressed are:


What do I do about equipment?


Normal items vs Artifacts/specific items?


How do impose a proper sense of suspense?


What is a good way of ending the stories or information before revealing too much, other than "cut to black, now you're in the future again?"

[PersonMan]

What is a good way of ending the stories or information before revealing too much, other than "cut to black, now you're in the future again?"


I'd describe it as a sort of blurring effect, i. e. sounds get muffled until they're unintelligible, vision blurs, details are missing, etc. until they go back to the 'normal' time.

[gkathellar]

With regards to equipment, the PCs could have deactivated intelligent/empathic gear to start off with. The gear in question could be keyed to their minds, memories and personalities — so as they regain themselves, it would slowly regain its power and begin to "wake up." For characters who are becoming very different than their previous lives, you could have conflict with this gear become a major point.

[Elric VIII]

With regards to equipment, the PCs could have deactivated intelligent/empathic gear to start off with. The gear in question could be keyed to their minds, memories and personalities — so as they regain themselves, it would slowly regain its power and begin to "wake up." For characters who are becoming very different than their previous lives, you could have conflict with this gear become a major point.

That's a cool idea, but what I meant was: Since the PCs will be changing around between timeframes (although not physically) should all of their present equipment carry over to the past? Should I specifically include some items that do not transfer over to drive home the point that they are not really travelling back in time?

[Kol Korran]

[SIZE="3"]

I want some way of reconstructing their memories in-game such that I am not telling their characters what they did. My idea is to have them act out the memories themselves as they learn them.

For example: As an ancient oracle begins to despense to them a bit of their story I allow the characters to take over their past-selves and act it out as a mini-adventure. As for ECL, they will (conveniently) be tracing their memories at the same rate they are leveling up.

this may be VERY problematic, for a simple reason- players might not go through the "scripted past" if they are given a choice (and not just to ruin the game, it can happen quite innocently) they can"die" before hand, or not talk to the right person, or suspect/ not suspect the person, or kill/ avoid to kill someone, or make any other kind of "wrong choice".

that said, a few ideas:
- if you are going to have them play it, i suggest they NEVER CAN BE SURE that these are memories- suddenly they are somewhere else, (hand over char sheets) with a different situation. but it looks damn real, everyone acts real, feels real. they have an inkling of the situation, what they were trying to accomplish. when they get back to reality, the same sort of disorientation happens. it might just be that they continue to act and move somewhat while in their dreams! this may cause quite some confusion and doubts at the start ("wait, so which one is real?" , "wait, so we're playing two campaigns?" and so on, but soon enough it should be fairly clear, since one "reality" is more consistent. also, some clues in the world (come to a desolate city, and having it be a live and bustling in the "other reality") might give a clue. still, might be fun!

- if you wish to reduce the chance of blunder i mentioned above, make most memories be atmospheric, but not crucial to the development of the past. instead, make them close to major decision points, but have the memory take place just before or just after the decision point had been made. for example- just before entering the council of war, trying to persuade them to take the long shot gamble, just after a terrible fight with some monster, healing up, recuperating, searching for clues of it's master, and so on... have clues, NPCs (that they are supposed to trust most times) maybe intelligent items and so on enhance the story, provide ideas.

- do you know the game Planescape Torment? an old game, AD&D, but one of the best ever in terms of roleplay. basically, you play this amnesiac guy, who asks up in a morgue (he's been DEAD!) and the rest of the game he tries to find out who he is. only... he fins out he has been several persons. each with their own agenda.

the game deals with gaining memory quite nice- some can be gained through letters, peopletelling him about himself and so on, but the vast majority is him having "flashbacks" if he's in a certain place he's been to before, sees a familiar symbol, hears a familiar voice, and so on. the game demands you have a certain wis score for each such memory, but i think you can easily do with out it. have players actively look for things that trigger their memory, by providing clues in the game. "wait, he said i liked Brades Wine? where can i get it, where do they make it?", "in the dream i was wearing this uniform- the head of a basilisk, what organization is that?", "i heard that elven song before? how the hell do i know elven? we need to search this out!"

- have some people know who they are. these people may try to help them, or to oppose them, or the best of all- mislead them and use them.


I would like some suggestions on how to make this work better from any experienced DMs. Some things that might need to be addressed are:


What do I do about equipment?


Normal items vs Artifacts/specific items?


How do impose a proper sense of suspense?


What is a good way of ending the stories or information before revealing too much, other than "cut to black, now you're in the future again?"

Equipment- i suggest running two sets of equipment- one for the "Real reality" and one for the memories. the memory ones should include some "all the time gear" that they posses, which can be upgraded, and some miscellenious stuff that may change from memory to memory. but again, since combat might mean a dead character, you want to avoid that if at all possible (the exception is fight way under CR encounters, or hordes of mooks in a way kind of thing) so equipment shouldn't be that important, and i'd focus on equipment that might be relevant to the memory.

normal vs artifact? not usre what you ask here. if the story (especially the memories) call for something extra special, then give it to them. it should come late rin the campaign i'd imagine.

suspense... ahh, the fine art! the key concept are:
- reveal only a little at a time, a few things to keep the party moving, and fewer things that hint at yet hidden things.
- clues are best if they are but half revealing, confusing, or can be interperted in different ways. always have someelements in them the party can understand, but have more that they can only guess at, which may become clearer later on.
- rivaling notions: the party is presented with several points of view, but with no actual proof to utterly support one or the other, and they all are suspicious. "wait, so the X want us to bring the Z to them, since it might help cure their village. but the D think that getting it out of the tomb, might cause a great plague, and so we must make sure the tomb is secure, reinforce it's defenses through this ritual. B say that Z must be destroyed, since it just grows in power... oh, and that memory just indicated that we have gone there before, and came out... odd, with those strange markings, but it didn't show us what the hell happened? M, do you think it might have something to do with the dreams you had lately?"

- twists and turns! finding something isn't as you thought it was (as is the major theme of the campaign, no?)- a friend betrays, only to find out late rhe did it for their/ the world's own good. an artifact they sought for long has alleady been stolen, replaced by a replica, the church of Pelor is NOT what it seems to be.

this is especially important in the memories.

don't way over do this, or the players will become panicky, and won't trust a thing. one major surprise every several levels, a few minor surprises on the way are good.

this may have been overly general, but i hope it helps.

[Elric VIII]

this may be VERY problematic, for a simple reason- players might not go through the "scripted past" if they are given a choice (and not just to ruin the game, it can happen quite innocently) they can"die" before hand, or not talk to the right person, or suspect/ not suspect the person, or kill/ avoid to kill someone, or make any other kind of "wrong choice".

Well, actually, I had no real scripted past. I was just going to leave them with an impossible choice at the very end (which they must undo in the present). I figured I can have the past campaign be very open-ended.


that said, a few ideas:
- if you are going to have them play it, i suggest they NEVER CAN BE SURE that these are memories- suddenly they are somewhere else, (hand over char sheets) with a different situation. but it looks damn real, everyone acts real, feels real. they have an inkling of the situation, what they were trying to accomplish. when they get back to reality, the same sort of disorientation happens. it might just be that they continue to act and move somewhat while in their dreams! this may cause quite some confusion and doubts at the start ("wait, so which one is real?" , "wait, so we're playing two campaigns?" and so on, but soon enough it should be fairly clear, since one "reality" is more consistent. also, some clues in the world (come to a desolate city, and having it be a live and bustling in the "other reality") might give a clue. still, might be fun!

- if you wish to reduce the chance of blunder i mentioned above, make most memories be atmospheric, but not crucial to the development of the past. instead, make them close to major decision points, but have the memory take place just before or just after the decision point had been made. for example- just before entering the council of war, trying to persuade them to take the long shot gamble, just after a terrible fight with some monster, healing up, recuperating, searching for clues of it's master, and so on... have clues, NPCs (that they are supposed to trust most times) maybe intelligent items and so on enhance the story, provide ideas.

- do you know the game Planescape Torment? an old game, AD&D, but one of the best ever in terms of roleplay. basically, you play this amnesiac guy, who asks up in a morgue (he's been DEAD!) and the rest of the game he tries to find out who he is. only... he fins out he has been several persons. each with their own agenda.

the game deals with gaining memory quite nice- some can be gained through letters, peopletelling him about himself and so on, but the vast majority is him having "flashbacks" if he's in a certain place he's been to before, sees a familiar symbol, hears a familiar voice, and so on. the game demands you have a certain wis score for each such memory, but i think you can easily do with out it. have players actively look for things that trigger their memory, by providing clues in the game. "wait, he said i liked Brades Wine? where can i get it, where do they make it?", "in the dream i was wearing this uniform- the head of a basilisk, what organization is that?", "i heard that elven song before? how the hell do i know elven? we need to search this out!"

- have some people know who they are. these people may try to help them, or to oppose them, or the best of all- mislead them and use them.


These are all very good.



suspense... ahh, the fine art! the key concept are:
- reveal only a little at a time, a few things to keep the party moving, and fewer things that hint at yet hidden things.
- clues are best if they are but half revealing, confusing, or can be interperted in different ways. always have someelements in them the party can understand, but have more that they can only guess at, which may become clearer later on.
- rivaling notions: the party is presented with several points of view, but with no actual proof to utterly support one or the other, and they all are suspicious. "wait, so the X want us to bring the Z to them, since it might help cure their village. but the D think that getting it out of the tomb, might cause a great plague, and so we must make sure the tomb is secure, reinforce it's defenses through this ritual. B say that Z must be destroyed, since it just grows in power... oh, and that memory just indicated that we have gone there before, and came out... odd, with those strange markings, but it didn't show us what the hell happened? M, do you think it might have something to do with the dreams you had lately?"

- twists and turns! finding something isn't as you thought it was (as is the major theme of the campaign, no?)- a friend betrays, only to find out late rhe did it for their/ the world's own good. an artifact they sought for long has alleady been stolen, replaced by a replica, the church of Pelor is NOT what it seems to be.

this is especially important in the memories.

don't way over do this, or the players will become panicky, and won't trust a thing. one major surprise every several levels, a few minor surprises on the way are good.

this may have been overly general, but i hope it helps.

I think I see what you're getting at here. Thank you.

[Kol Korran]

Well, actually, I had no real scripted past. I was just going to leave them with an impossible choice at the very end (which they must undo in the present). I figured I can have the past campaign be very open-ended.


(part of the following advice may sound harsh. it is meant to be constructive though)

hhmmmm.... well, i see a few problems with that:
- first and most important- why do you need the entire past campaign for then? if it means nothing (and from what you describe only the end choice is important), then why are they playing it for? if the end is set, then why spend so much time out of the session playing something that won't matter? if the past is used to build a story, flesh things out, describe a process, than yeah, but just "hanging?/ without a purpose?

- the players can REALLY mess up the reality and story /believability of the setting if allowed so much free reign in the past. look at nearly ANYTHING that deals with choices in two different points in time. for example, the party might meet (in the present) some important character in the 3rd meeting, and then meet her (in the past) in the 7th meeting, and kill her! or refuse to fight someone who's supposed to be dead, or insult someone they are supposed by now to be good friends with and so on.

players might even decide to cheat- "leaving" powerful magic items in some really secure location, for their future selves to find it. sure, you can deal with it, but how many times?

some players even really really love messing with a DM's campaign like that, so be warned.

- it really really cheapens the end choice- if the past was theirs to play with, why MUST they do this thing? it might make no sense in terms of their character's ... character and personality, or events that happened, or choices and the like. it feels like a really crappy sort of railroading.

true, by using more limited options in the past, and mostly scripted scenes, it may seems like railroading too, BUT- if it's done from the start, the players will most likely accept it, since it's not the main campaign, it's just a feature that helps enhance it, enrich it. also, as a player, i would really appreciate the intricate tail that is interwoven to the campaign in the background, instead of just one event at the end.

[Elric VIII]

(part of the following advice may sound harsh. it is meant to be constructive though)

That's why I started this thread, to ground my illusions of a smooth campaign with cooperative players into reality. :smallbiggrin:


hhmmmm.... well, i see a few problems with that:
- first and most important- why do you need the entire past campaign for then? if it means nothing (and from what you describe only the end choice is important), then why are they playing it for? if the end is set, then why spend so much time out of the session playing something that won't matter? if the past is used to build a story, flesh things out, describe a process, than yeah, but just "hanging?/ without a purpose?

- the players can REALLY mess up the reality and story /believability of the setting if allowed so much free reign in the past. look at nearly ANYTHING that deals with choices in two different points in time. for example, the party might meet (in the present) some important character in the 3rd meeting, and then meet her (in the past) in the 7th meeting, and kill her! or refuse to fight someone who's supposed to be dead, or insult someone they are supposed by now to be good friends with and so on.

That is a good point, but I don't have an actual choice in mind. I only have the first few encoutners planned and will create future encounters based on the past. Is this reasonable to assume or is it likely to back me into a corner?




players might even decide to cheat- "leaving" powerful magic items in some really secure location, for their future selves to find it. sure, you can deal with it, but how many times?

Maybe I should force a gentleman's agreement at the start to not do this. This is a very good catch.


- it really really cheapens the end choice- if the past was theirs to play with, why MUST they do this thing? it might make no sense in terms of their character's ... character and personality, or events that happened, or choices and the like. it feels like a really crappy sort of railroading.

true, by using more limited options in the past, and mostly scripted scenes, it may seems like railroading too, BUT- if it's done from the start, the players will most likely accept it, since it's not the main campaign, it's just a feature that helps enhance it, enrich it. also, as a player, i would really appreciate the intricate tail that is interwoven to the campaign in the background, instead of just one event at the end.

That may take some figuring. Perhaps I chose the incorrect words to describe what I intend to do. I hope to set up a situation where the players have to make a difficult choice with grave consequences for either option. Something along the lines of Spiderman choosing to save the cable car over Gwen Stacy.

My hope is to make nothing too scripted past the first few adventures (is this being overly optimistic?).

Just wondering on people's opinions if they were faced with this: If I begin a flashback/story/past event by setting the scene and telling you some of your character's general fellings about it, but allowed you freedome to enact it as you see fit, would you feel like I am forcing you into something?

For example, the first scene where the party is meeting I will tell them they all feel a "sense of wariness or distrust of the others, as though each person here is a potential enemy," but allow them to act upon, ignore, or eventually revise those feelings as the see fit.

If I put a character in a starting scene that you feel is not something your character would do, would you feel as if I am controlling you or acknowledge that it is possible for someone to act out of sorts at times and attempt to bring the situation to something acceptable?

[Kol Korran]

That is a good point, but I don't have an actual choice in mind. I only have the first few encoutners planned and will create future encounters based on the past. Is this reasonable to assume or is it likely to back me into a corner?
i like to have a general outline of the campaign, mainly stemming for the opponents actions, world events and so on. then i try to figure out a general path of the PCS, but i let things evolve as they are. some DMs "wing it" by improvisation quite easily though.

only... the "past memories" thing is not like that, for reasons i detailed already. if what happened then has no effect on the now, and if it doesn't lead to the concluding event you have planned, then it SERVES NO PURPOSE... it's just an "extra, somewhat related second campaign". this could be quit annoying to players, as dividing their time between two campaign can be annoying.

if you have some ideas for the past, i suggest to make them general enough, and not influencing enough, more to let the characters get a bit of a feel for the worldthey have been in. but as the game continues, i highly advise to bring some sort of narrative, some sort of plot to the past.

some would call this railroading, but it's not. the MAIN campaign should have no railroading, no presumed thoughts/ emotions/ opinions. but the past memories serve the present. the memories should not last long, should not dominate the game,and should serve to enhance the story and feeling.


Maybe I should force a gentleman's agreement at the start to not do this. This is a very good catch.

that sounds like a good idea. have a hefty book to throw as "incentive".



That may take some figuring. Perhaps I chose the incorrect words to describe what I intend to do. I hope to set up a situation where the players have to make a difficult choice with grave consequences for either option. Something along the lines of Spiderman choosing to save the cable car over Gwen Stacy.

i thought you wanted a SPECIFIC result, the "here come the apocalypse"? result? what if they would make the other one? or do you present them the choice, and then go back to the present, letting them reazliae the choice they made? also, like spiderman in the movie (what a godawful crap of a movie!) they could find a way to "eat the cake and leave it whole"... players are like that. what then?


My hope is to make nothing too scripted past the first few adventures (is this being overly optimistic?).

the first few adventures tend to be vague in most campaigns, so you might be able to combine their results and build a more coherent, more "making sense" things later. but it's a certain risk, which forces you to adapt to the choices made, instead of making choices and see how the players deal with them.

Just wondering on people's opinions if they were faced with this: If I begin a flashback/story/past event by setting the scene and telling you some of your character's general fellings about it, but allowed you freedom to enact it as you see fit, would you feel like I am forcing you into something?

For example, the first scene where the party is meeting I will tell them they all feel a "sense of wariness or distrust of the others, as though each person here is a potential enemy," but allow them to act upon, ignore, or eventually revise those feelings as the see fit.

oh, i'd feel i have a great freedom, but if i knew this was a past memory, i would wonder if all my choices are reflected in the present, or am i changing something that exists allready. i may decide to do some crazy stuff since "hey, this allready happened, it doesn't matter, does it?" (no i wouldn't, but some players would). if any result is possible, then yeah, i'd wonder what effect did this "past" has over the present.



If I put a character in a starting scene that you feel is not something your character would do, would you feel as if I am controlling you or acknowledge that it is possible for someone to act out of sorts at times and attempt to bring the situation to something acceptable?

i'd trust the DM (and s/he had better earn that trust) to not go against my personality to that degree, or have a good reason (which may be hidden in the scen) to make it son. i personally, will be very much intrigued, and consider it a challenge (i'd probably try to find out WHY am i acting out of character though) i'll then try and act as provided by the situation, and the mental/ emotional state the DM describes.. you know, like a mature player.

[Elric VIII]

only... the "past memories" thing is not like that, for reasons i detailed already. if what happened then has no effect on the now, and if it doesn't lead to the concluding event you have planned, then it SERVES NO PURPOSE... it's just an "extra, somewhat related second campaign". this could be quit annoying to players, as dividing their time between two campaign can be annoying.

if you have some ideas for the past, i suggest to make them general enough, and not influencing enough, more to let the characters get a bit of a feel for the worldthey have been in. but as the game continues, i highly advise to bring some sort of narrative, some sort of plot to the past.

some would call this railroading, but it's not. the MAIN campaign should have no railroading, no presumed thoughts/ emotions/ opinions. but the past memories serve the present. the memories should not last long, should not dominate the game,and should serve to enhance the story and feeling.

Yeah, I guess it could be relatively hard to do. My plan was to use what they do in the past to spawn encounters in the future. Basically, each past episode would give them a clue of where to go next and that place would reference something that happened, such as ancestors or ruins.

I think what I might do is write a timeline for a past group of analagous, but different advernturers, and make the players try to recreate the original group's path. That could give the same feel of exploration and mystery without me relying on the players to do anything. In the beginning I can hint at some cyclical sort of event whose execution they must follow.






that sounds like a good idea. have a hefty book to throw as "incentive".:smallamused:





i thought you wanted a SPECIFIC result, the "here come the apocalypse"? result? what if they would make the other one? or do you present them the choice, and then go back to the present, letting them reazliae the choice they made? also, like spiderman in the movie (what a godawful crap of a movie!) they could find a way to "eat the cake and leave it whole"... players are like that. what then?

Possibly two alternate ending sereis of encounters based on each decision. Although, it is entirely possible that I could set up a scenario, such that I do not realize that their characetrs can overcome it with no trouble. In fact, this is entirely likely, cinsidering there will be an Artificer, Wizard, Druid, and possibly a Cleric in the party. I have heard that throwing challenges in the way of such a party is rather difficult.




the first few adventures tend to be vague in most campaigns, so you might be able to combine their results and build a more coherent, more "making sense" things later. but it's a certain risk, which forces you to adapt to the choices made, instead of making choices and see how the players deal with them.

Just wondering on people's opinions if they were faced with this: If I begin a flashback/story/past event by setting the scene and telling you some of your character's general fellings about it, but allowed you freedom to enact it as you see fit, would you feel like I am forcing you into something?

For example, the first scene where the party is meeting I will tell them they all feel a "sense of wariness or distrust of the others, as though each person here is a potential enemy," but allow them to act upon, ignore, or eventually revise those feelings as the see fit.

oh, i'd feel i have a great freedom, but if i knew this was a past memory, i would wonder if all my choices are reflected in the present, or am i changing something that exists allready. i may decide to do some crazy stuff since "hey, this allready happened, it doesn't matter, does it?" (no i wouldn't, but some players would). if any result is possible, then yeah, i'd wonder what effect did this "past" has over the present.



i'd trust the DM (and s/he had better earn that trust) to not go against my personality to that degree, or have a good reason (which may be hidden in the scen) to make it son. i personally, will be very much intrigued, and consider it a challenge (i'd probably try to find out WHY am i acting out of character though) i'll then try and act as provided by the situation, and the mental/ emotional state the DM describes.. you know, like a mature player.

I think you've convinced me that there are too many bases to cover in this sort of adventure. This is only my second time DMing, so I should probably hold off on this until I am more experienced. I think I will go with the idea of them having to deduce and recreate (or make better) certain actions of a previous group of adventurers (obviously with some freeform stuff/backfires to make it interesting).

I may even include some shadows-of-the-past type of thing like on Dragon Age, in the Thaig with the Dwarven gosts/memories, into which the players are drawn. I could have them act out the past, and if they deviate too far from what I need, just have the vision break.


Thank you very much for the help.

[Kol Korran]

Yeah, I guess it could be relatively hard to do. My plan was to use what they do in the past to spawn encounters in the future. Basically, each past episode would give them a clue of where to go next and that place would reference something that happened, such as ancestors or ruins.

I think what I might do is write a timeline for a past group of analagous, but different advernturers, and make the players try to recreate the original group's path. That could give the same feel of exploration and mystery without me relying on the players to do anything. In the beginning I can hint at some cyclical sort of event whose execution they must follow.

That... might work. could be interesting! if you do so, i suggest that they keep on moving from base to base, location to location, so that events in one place have little effect (or so it seems? :smallwink:) on the next location. you can have a mobile base of operation, such as a caravan route, sea ship, air ship, dimensional pocket?

it doesn't mean they can't go back, and that thee are to be no recurring places/ people, only that these are... rare. frees up a lot of head ache.


Possibly two alternate ending sereis of encounters based on each decision. Although, it is entirely possible that I could set up a scenario, such that I do not realize that their characetrs can overcome it with no trouble. In fact, this is entirely likely, cinsidering there will be an Artificer, Wizard, Druid, and possibly a Cleric in the party. I have heard that throwing challenges in the way of such a party is rather difficult.

this is tricky, but you know your players better. i have one wizard and one cleric in my group, and these two just keep up coming with new ways to mess things up (in a good way! :smallbiggrin:) still, it's part of the fun. players WILL mess things up. it's one of the foundations of the game.


I think you've convinced me that there are too many bases to cover in this sort of adventure. This is only my second time DMing, so I should probably hold off on this until I am more experienced.

that is sooooo not what intended. i think DMs should challengethemselves, as in any other hobby/ doing. i came back to DMing after a long time when i was away, and the campaign am running is more than i used to do in the (way back past)- reaching higher levels, much more material available for players and DM, and other stuff. i mess up, sometimes quite nice (i had a team of 6 main villains, who's level is way above the PCs. they were supposed to be recuring villains. the party BUTCHERED the first three). if the idea excites you, and the players- try it. (my sig holds a link to my campaign- from a Dm's point of view, discussing adventure, creative process and DM decisions. in case you're interested. it's a bit... wordy.)

but you're the best judge- if it's still too much, then maybe later. no rush :smalltongue:


Thank you very much for the help.

hey, that's what the playground is for! glad to have been of assistance! :smallsmile: