Unarmed Damage progression... help me out here

[Daftendirekt]

Okay, so I'm making a gestalt unarmed swordsage 12//barb2/fig2/warshaper4/fist of the forest 3/ranger 1 and I'm having trouble figuring out what my unarmed damage will ultimately be.

Let's deal with progression before size increases, K? Gestalt makes this doubly confusing.


Going by the Tome of Battle text, swordsage has the same unarmed progression as a monk, so that means I have a Base of 2d6 (at level 12).
I also have two progressions via Fist of the Forest. 1d8 upon entry, and then 1d10 at 3rd level. It says thus: "If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on monk class table." Now, at level 9 (the level I enter FotF at) my unarmed is only at 1d10, not 2d6 yet. So, would this boost it from 2d6 and then to 2d8 per the monk's unarmed progression?
NOW, size increases. Oh boy. I can't be the only person confused by the list in Improved Natural Attack. Even if I was sure what my base was, I'm not sure what it would increase to after Improved Natural Attack, as well as the size increase from Warshaper.


Any illumination would be most welcome.

[hex0]

1d10 bumps up thrice with FOF to the Monk's maximum base damage of 2d10. When you apply Improved Natural Attack it bumps it to 4d8, I believe. Size bumps it after that.

Also look into Shou Disciple for your build as well. Full BAB flurry is +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5, btw.

[Darrin]

I also have two progressions via Fist of the Forest. 1d8 upon entry, and then 1d10 at 3rd level. It says thus: "If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on monk class table." Now, at level 9 (the level I enter FotF at) my unarmed is only at 1d10, not 2d6 yet. So, would this boost it from 2d6 and then to 2d8 per the monk's unarmed progression?



The text from Fist of the Forest is wonky and not entirely clear. A literal RAW interpretation suggests you only get a damage increase if your unarmed damage exactly equals 1d8 or 1d10 respectively. However, I don't see any reasonable argument on why you would want to interpret this so literally. I believe most of the forumites here treat three levels of FotF as two damage increases on either the monk table or the weapon size table.




NOW, size increases. Oh boy. I can't be the only person confused by the list in Improved Natural Attack. Even if I was sure what my base was, I'm not sure what it would increase to after Improved Natural Attack, as well as the size increase from Warshaper.



In general, you can apply game effects in whatever order is most beneficial to your PC. For the most part, the monk unarmed damage, the table for increasing weapon size, and the text of Improved Natural Attack sort of all follow the same basic progression... actually, there's two "tracks" of damage, one based on Xd6 and the other on Xd8. The monk table sort of "skips" from 2d6 up to the 2d8 track.

If we do FotF first, your unarmed damage would be:

2d6 (base) -> 2d8 (FotF1) -> 2d10 (FotF3) -> 4d8 (INA) -> 6d8 (Warshaper)

If we do a size increases first, such as using INA to treat ourselves as a Large-sized monk, then we start with the Large monk table, but wind up with the same damage:

3d6 (base + INA) -> 3d8 (FotF1) -> 4d8 (FotF3) -> 6d8 (Warshaper)

The only real headache is if we try to apply both INA and Warshaper before FotF, but since there's no table to determine a Huge monk's unarmed damage, a large monk + Warshaper = 4d6 base damage, at which point FotF can't help us because 4d6 doesn't appear in the monk unarmed damage progression.

If your DM is an absolute stickler for RAW on FotF, then once your unarmed damage goes over 1d10, FotF doesn't give you any damage increase at all. You get 2d6 (base) -> 3d6 (INA) -> 4d6 (Warshaper).

[Andion Isurand]

I really think damage for a medium sized monk at level 20 should be 3d8, half way between that of a large and small creature.

-------------------------------------------------

Here's some notes from an old build, which may or may not work depending on how natural weapons and unarmed attacks are qualified

16 monk lvls
4 shou disciple lvls
////////// epic //////////
10 dragon initiate lvls
1 warshaper lvl

-------------------------------------------------

Damage Increases (from 3d8 w/ 20 lvls monk)

*mundane*

+1 Increase w/ Superior Unarmed Stike feat @ lvl 6
+1 Increase w/ Improved Natural Attack feat @ lvl 9
+2 Increases w/ two Dragon Initiate Increases @ lvl 24 & 28

*supernatural*

+3 Increases w/ Huge Fang Dragon Shape @ lvl 30 (+2 actual size)
+1 Increase w/ Morphic Weapons @ lvl 31

*magical items*

+1 Increase w/ Righteous Might (+1 actual size)

*damage table*

2d8 to 3d8 = 50% increase (DMG 28)
3d8 to 4d8 = 33% increase (DMG 28)
4d8 to 6d8 = 50% increase (DMG 28)
6d8 to 8d8 = 33% increase (DMG 28)
8d8 to 12d8 = 50% increase (DMG 28)
12d8 to 16d8 = 33% increase
16d8 to 24d8 = 50% increase
24d8 to 32d8 = 33% increase
32d8 to 48d8 = 50% increase
48d8 to 64d8 = 33% increase
64d8 to 96d8 = 50% increase
etc etc

then of course add Beast Strike feat from Dragon Magazine #355 p.76
and then add Improved Natural Attack to that if you like

[Daftendirekt]

6d8, huh? Damn. I'm okay with that, heh. And thanks very much!

[Darrin]

6d8, huh? Damn. I'm okay with that, heh. And thanks very much!

If you fit in two feats from Magic of Incarnum, Shape Soulmeld (Totem Avatar) and Open Lesser Chakra (shoulders), you can increase it from 6d8 -> 8d8.

Squeeze in some Psychic Warrior levels, an Ardent dip, or Hidden Talent, and you can add expansion to get up to 12d8. The weapon size and INA progression ends there, but as Andion Isurand mentions above, some optimizers like to extend the progression to 16d8, 24d8, etc. If you can augment the expansion (PsyWar 4 + Practiced Manifester), you could get up to 16d8.

[Daftendirekt]

The build in OP is what it is. The campaign is starting at level 12, so that's what I've submitted. No room for more.

[Person_Man]

The build in OP is what it is. The campaign is starting at level 12, so that's what I've submitted. No room for more.

Understood.

For future reference, you may wish to look at the increasing size thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732). It's not very hard to get your unarmed or claw damage up to 12d6+ range by mid levels. For your character concept I personally would have used Unarmed Swordsage 12//Psychic Warrior or Totemist 12, as then damage increases and other scaled psionic or soulmeld abilities would be a lot more potent then the jumble of classes and PrC you currently have going on, with nothing wasted on cruddy pre-reqs. But it is what it is.

[Daftendirekt]

Understood.

For future reference, you may wish to look at the increasing size thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732). It's not very hard to get your unarmed or claw damage up to 12d6+ range by mid levels. For your character concept I personally would have used Unarmed Swordsage 12//Psychic Warrior or Totemist 12, as then damage increases and other scaled psionic or soulmeld abilities would be a lot more potent then the jumble of classes and PrC you currently have going on, with nothing wasted on cruddy pre-reqs. But it is what it is.

Well, the only prereq, really, is Great Fortitude. (I mean, FotF needs Power Attack and Imp Unarmed Strike too, but I have those anyway). Also, I like the flavor of it and Warshaper is just fun. Free reach and fast healing.

[MeeposFire]

If you were a kalashtar you could then add another size boost with a siberys dragonshard that improves unarmed damage and then you could buy a strongarm graft and buy a a battlefist and improve it by another size.

2 size increases without using feats.

[Daftendirekt]

If you were a kalashtar you could then add another size boost with a siberys dragonshard that improves unarmed damage and then you could buy a strongarm graft and buy a a battlefist and improve it by another size.

2 size increases without using feats.

Except if I was a Kalashtar I couldn't be a Warshaper.

[MeeposFire]

Except if I was a Kalashtar I couldn't be a Warshaper.

Are you a changeling? If you are then you could take a feat later tat allows you to count as a kalshtar if you are shaped as one and then you could take the shard.

Still either way you can still use the strongarm graft and the battlefist for another size increase and cheap enchantments for your fist.