Symbiotic Template (Did I miss something?)

[Abaddon87]

So I've been reading SS and I came across the template for a Symbiotic character/monster. Basically, you use the STR, DEX and CON of the "Host" creature and the INT, WIS and CHA of the "Guest" creature and combine them into one character/monster.

My question is, whats the downside? As far as I can tell they have the same HP, skills and abilities all wrapped into one package.

So whats preventing me from making a Feral Half-Ogre Barbarian host, and sticking an Awakened Half-Fiend Parrot guest on his shoulder and making a super smart, super strong, super tough "Captain Blood, the Half-Ogre Pirate"? (or a similarly awesome, overpowered combo)

Did I miss something in the rules for the template or is this just like I made it sound?

[Wings of Peace]

Did I miss something in the rules for the template or is this just like I made it sound?

You missed the part where you read through the rest of Savage Species and realize why so much of it's content is used in optimization exercises. :smallsmile:

Edit: This is old but seems relevant to your interests. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863774/Symbiotic_Creature_Template_-_Handbook)

[Abaddon87]

You missed the part where you read through the rest of Savage Species and realize why so much of it's content is used in optimization exercises. :smallsmile:

Which is why I said "Feral" Half-Ogre :smallbiggrin:

I can see why this is crazy, but hey I didnt write the rules... I'm just following them!

But seriously, my biggest worry is that the Parrot has like no hp... so what if my Half-Ogre pirate gets hit by a fireball? Does the Parrot guest get cooked and I loose my little helper?

Edit: Thanks for the link btw! Some great tricks in there for getting evem more powerful guests!

[DonutBoy12321]

I had one game with a required 4 level adjustment. I played a Feral Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Anthromorphic Elephant with an Insectile Anthromorphic Bat on its back. Took all Swordsage levels, for Wisdom to AC and did massive damage with strength. Ahh... That was fun.

[Abaddon87]

So I'm wondering if a Puppeteer (EPH) would be a valid choice. It says they are Magical Beasts and thats not on the normal list for the template. I think the whole fluff of a Puppeteer fits the symbiotic template like a glove but rules are rules...

Is there a way to make a Puppeteer change its creature type so it would fit for the template?

Edit: I'm also still unclear about HD/LA for those with the symbiotic template. If I combine two monsters, each with an EL of 2, does the symbiotic creature created have an EL of 4? Do you ignore the HD and/or LA of the guest creature and just use the EL of the host?

[TheGeckoKing]

Firstly, since you always use the host's HD with this template, I'd guess the ECL would be the Host's HD + 1 for the template's LA.
Secondly, the Half-Fey template makes anything alive and corporeal into a Fey, and the Greenbound template makes Fey into Plants, so really one is only limited by size with the Symbiont Template (even then, maybe there's a template for that).
A good one is a (Half Fey Greenbound) Deathraven Swarm from the BoED. Con Based Save-or-Die (And need Wish to come back) that has no [Death] descriptor and forces a Fort Save EVERY time you wound someone. Oh, and a 20% chance you'll rip out the eyes of and blind anyone you damage each round. And you still use the host's HD, with the LA +1. Mmmmmm, gouda..........

[Abaddon87]

So how is this not seen as one of the biggest cheese answers to over-powered character making? I could just stack up templates to up my guest's INT, WIS and CHA to high heaven and get enough specail abilities to fill a book by itself... and slap that guest on a lvl 1 Fighter?

I'm turning into cheese just thinking about it!