Riverine Questions

[Chilingsworth]

Ok, so... Riverine, basically an ultra thin layer of super high pressure water encased within a specialized wall of force. Seems like amazing stuff.

But... how does one go about crafting it? What about making it into specific items? I ask because Stormwrack seems to have left these bits out.

I'd assume you need access to the wall of force spell and high pressure water (aka, deep ocean trench or the elemental plane of water, as Stormwrack suggests,) but what else? Item crafting feats? Other spells? Skill checks?

Any idea?

[Darrin]

Ok, so... Riverine, basically an ultra thin layer of super high pressure water encased within a specialized wall of force. Seems like amazing stuff.


Fabulous stuff. Equipment made out of walls of force... at which point, being filled with high-pressure water becomes whimsically meaningless.



But... how does one go about crafting it? What about making it into specific items? I ask because Stormwrack seems to have left these bits out.


The designers appear to have been asleep at the wheel when they came up with Riverine. If they'd put a bit more thought into giving PCs indestructable force-effect equipment (particularly how it affects damage reduction and incorporeal creatures), it probably would have been cut from the book.

As far as the mechanics of creating it... they gave it a price in GP, which means you can make a Craft: Weaponsmith/Armorsmith roll, and if your roll is high enough and you spend enough time doing this, you can create Riverine. The actual method of manufacture is deliberately abstracted, and in D&D it's never a good idea to dig too deeply into rules abstractions.



I'd assume you need access to the wall of force spell and high pressure water (aka, deep ocean trench or the elemental plane of water, as Stormwrack suggests,) but what else? Item crafting feats? Other spells? Skill checks?


As far as I know, no spell-casting or feats are required to make objects out of special materials. The only requirement is to have the necessary raw materials, which the DM can fluff however it suits him. Create a mold out of ethereally-infused elukian clay, find a deep ocean trench that overlaps the elemental plane of water during an ether cyclone, veins of ultra-rare "forcestone" that release force-vapors when exposed to super-heated water, etc.

[Keneth]

It's quite genius to have an armor made out of force filled with water under high pressure. Until someone dispels the force effect, completely destroying your special armor and leaving you with water blowing up in your face. :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

That takes desentigrate, and that would destroy any armor.

I like the "can't be broken except by desentigrate" clause. It makes massive unbreakable skeletons for fortifications cheep by the pound by makeing them very very thin.

[Keneth]

Yeah but in the description of other more standard materials it doesn't say that they can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell and so as soon as your DM sees that clause, you might as well sell that armor on the nearest market because you can be sure he's already planning on destroying it (I know I would). :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Yeah but in the description of other more standard materials it doesn't say that they can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell and so as soon as your DM sees that clause, you might as well sell that armor on the nearest market because you can be sure he's already planning on destroying it (I know I would). :smallsmile:

Wouldn't it be easier just not to allow Riverine in your campaign, rather than playing 'Gotcha!' with the PC's equipment?

[Darrin]

Yeah but in the description of other more standard materials it doesn't say that they can be destroyed by a disintegrate spell and so as soon as your DM sees that clause, you might as well sell that armor on the nearest market because you can be sure he's already planning on destroying it (I know I would). :smallsmile:

+1 Armor Spikes + Spellblade (+6000 GP, Magic of Faerun) for immunity to disintegrate. Not quite complete protection... spellblades are useless against area effects such as dispel magic/disjunction, but should be good against most garden-variety "DM grudges".

[Keneth]

Wouldn't it be easier just not to allow Riverine in your campaign, rather than playing 'Gotcha!' with the PC's equipment? Where's the fun that? I've been stripped of some or all of my equipment countless times in our campaigns, it's par for the course when your DM isn't a wuss. The word "no" isn't in our vocabulary when there's Rust Monsters, Disarms and Disintegrates around. :smallbiggrin:


+1 Armor Spikes + Spellblade That's a pretty nice trick, I'll be sure to use that somewhere. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Where's the fun that? I've been stripped of some or all of my equipment countless times in our campaigns, it's par for the course when your DM isn't a wuss. The word "no" isn't in our vocabulary when there's Rust Monsters, Disarms and Disintegrates around. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not especially fond of being told I'm a wuss just because I don't give players equipment simply for the "joy" of destroying it. "No, you can't have that" generally prevents more misunderstandings than handing out equipment you obviously don't want the PCs to have in the first place.

[Keneth]

You misunderstood my meaning here. Obviously if you don't want your players to have something, it's best to just tell them that they can't have it (although that does kind of make you a wuss because you don't want to deal with the consequences of those additions but putting that aside...). But the point is that your encounters are supposed to challenge (and potentially kill) the PCs and if one of them tells you "I want an armor made of force that can only be destroyed with a disintegrate spell", the first thing you're gonna do is incorporate some spellcasters with a disintegrate spell. I'm also of a strong opinion that playing within your comfort zone gets really boring really fast, hence I'd never explicitly say no to my players even if it means pure chaos and imbalance for the campaign. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

You misunderstood my meaning here. Obviously if you don't want your players to have something, it's best to just tell them that they can't have it (although that does kind of make you a wuss because you don't want to deal with the consequences of those additions but putting that aside...). But the point is that your encounters are supposed to challenge (and potentially kill) the PCs and if one of them tells you "I want an armor made of force that can only be destroyed with a disintegrate spell", the first thing you're gonna do is incorporate some spellcasters with a disintegrate spell. I'm also of a strong opinion that playing within your comfort zone gets really boring really fast, hence I'd never explicitly say no to my players even if it means pure chaos and imbalance for the campaign. :smallbiggrin:
Emphasis mine. I contend that if the "first thing you're gonna do" is immediately work to destroy some of your PCs WBL, you're engaging in Gotcha Gaming, which isn't my idea of a fun way to play a game with friends. Does that mean I think you should eliminate "Disintegrate" from the spell lists of the NPCs, or avoid sometimes hitting a weakness? Nope. The highlighted phrasing indicates that such choices should be the go-to options, however. I'll continually and strenuously disagree with you there.

[Keneth]

Are you saying you design your encounters without taking the PCs abilities and equipment into account? A random encounter maybe but if you're gonna tailor your campaign to your characters then somewhere down the line there should be a fight in which an opponent is gonna play on the character's weakness, otherwise saying no to everything really is your best option. I wasn't implying that the very next encounter should be a spellcaster with a spell focus in Transmutation and nothing but Disintegrate spells from lvl 6-9 but if a player is trying to fabricate himself a distinct advantage then they should be prepared to face the possibility that it's gonna be taken from them or bypassed at some point. It's worth nothing that we completely ignore the WBL table in our games however. The world is not a nice place, some prosper and some don't, adventurers are no exception. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Are you saying you design your encounters without taking the PCs abilities and equipment into account?Nowhere did I say that; I specifically said that casters should still have access to "Disintegrate" and similar spells.


I wasn't implying that the very next encounter should be a spellcaster with a spell focus in Transmutation and nothing but Disintegrate spells from lvl 6-9 but if a player is trying to fabricate himself a distinct advantage then they should be prepared to face the possibility that it's gonna be taken from them or bypassed at some point.Then perhaps the choice of verbiage with "the first thing you're gonna do is incorporate some spellcasters with a Disintegrate spell" was not the best method of conveying your intention. When I see "the first thing you're gonna do" I do actually read that as implying that it's upcoming within the next encounter or three, because it's specified as the first thing you're going to do.

[Keneth]

Having access to and specifically having that spell to combat the PCs are two different things. :smallwink:

And no, the wording was just fine, you're gonna design that encounter on the spot when the opportunity so blatantly presents itself (or part of it at least), even if you're not gonna use it for the next 5 sessions or until the final boss fight.

[Amphetryon]

And no, the wording was just fine, you're gonna design that encounter on the spot when the opportunity so blatantly presents itself (or part of it at least), even if you're not gonna use it for the next 5 sessions or until the final boss fight.Your insight into how and when I'm going to design encounters, while potentially interesting, is not accurate.

[BlueInc]

I almost never damage or destroy my players' gear; sometimes it gets stolen or lost and has to be recovered, but I can't think of a single time I just evaporated something they worked hard for.

Maybe I'm a wuss DM; maybe I just don't like throwing rust monsters against every Fighter in full plate.

[Eldariel]

Having access to and specifically having that spell to combat the PCs are two different things. :smallwink:

And no, the wording was just fine, you're gonna design that encounter on the spot when the opportunity so blatantly presents itself (or part of it at least), even if you're not gonna use it for the next 5 sessions or until the final boss fight.

I'll have to say, every DM does this differently. Yours truly, for example, doesn't design encounters with specifically the PCs in mind unless there's an in-story reason for it (that is, whatever faction the adversaries they're facing are from is aware of the PCs and both, considers them a sufficient threat and has sufficient intel to design around the PCs' capabilities and weaknesses, if any). Generally I base encounters around the environment and the local monster ecology (and indeed, random chance).

[herrhauptmann]

I'll have to say, every DM does this differently. Yours truly, for example, doesn't design encounters with specifically the PCs in mind unless there's an in-story reason for it (that is, whatever faction the adversaries they're facing are from is aware of the PCs and both, considers them a sufficient threat and has sufficient intel to design around the PCs' capabilities and weaknesses, if any). Generally I base encounters around the environment and the local monster ecology (and indeed, random chance).

In other words, a recurring enemy will have tactics to beat what the party used against him and/or his servants last time?
The big guy with a bigger sword is just a guy with a sword, until you see him one-shot a dragon. Then suddenly the plot based fights (not random ones) include things (items, terrain, spells) that shut down a charger, right?

-Slightly disjointed rant...

I've seen a bit posted recently about 'Wuss DMs.' Having trouble understanding how gunning for the party and their equipment at all times is fun. I mean, I could throw an ancient red dragon at my level 5 party. That doesn't make me a tough DM, it makes me an jerk. And probably will put a halt to the game while they reroll characters. Yes, they could run, but there's nothing a 5th level party can really do to escape an ancient dragon if it wants to kill them.

The other part about 'designing your encounters' is including stuff to make the various party members feel useful. But that's not 'being a wuss DM.'
If there's no rogue and I include lots of traps, well that's the party's fault for not making a trapfinder. If the grappler character spends 4 levels not getting to grapple, that's poor DMing on my part because I'm not giving someone the opportunity to use his character.
If the grappler dies to a trap, and rolls up a rogue, it would be worse DMing on my part to suddenly get rid of the traps and use lots of grappler characters. On the standards of "not being a wuss DM," I'm doing well by gunning for the party in areas where they're weak.

[Eldariel]

In other words, a recurring enemy will have tactics to beat what the party used against him and/or his servants last time?
The big guy with a bigger sword is just a guy with a sword, until you see him one-shot a dragon. Then suddenly the plot based fights (not random ones) include things (items, terrain, spells) that shut down a charger, right?

That's the general idea, yeah. Though of course, it gets more complex than that when the party constitutes of more rounded characters than a charger, but the principle remains the same.