Best Class for a Gish?

[TheRinni]

A friend of mine wants to play a Gish in our current (lowish optimized) sea campaign. He started out as a War Mage, but upon realizing you can only use Evocation spells, the DM has allowed him to switch classes.

He's thinking about going straight Wizard, and just focusing on buffs.

He wants to play an arcane spell caster. Are there any others that would be a better fit? I don't think he'd be interested in a Bard.

[Andreaz]

3.5 or PF? If PF, Magus is one of the best "gish classes" I've seen.
If 3.5, I'd still try for Magus :p

But otherwise, a fighter / wizard / whatever prestige class is a good baseline.
Or a duskblade / wizard / whatever prestige class.
If he doesn't mind going nonmagical for a while, independent casting prestige classes are good.




My typical gish build is a [crusader or duskblade] / wizard / abjurant champion / [swiftblade or jade phoenix mage]. After that it's pretty much moot what you pick as long as it is a PrC that gets you to the 9th level spells.

[Hirax]

Perhaps battle sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) for 6 levels and then swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)? or if you're willing to do some shenanigans you could even get swiftblade at 5th level. Suel Arcanamach is another nice gish in a can.

[TheRinni]

Sorry, I should have also added in that his particular player doesn't care for multiclassing. Anything beyond two classes will be pushing it.

The Battle Sorcerer sounds like a nice bet, thank you.

[Andreaz]

Not much multiclassing? Magus is the solution for you! :p
Most gish builds can also be pulled with only 3 classes, the "high bab" base being only one or two levels. He can't really pull the most effective builds without at least that much. It doesn't really need to go into those mashes of 14 different classes with 1/2 levels each, but only one or two will lag.


On the battle sorcerer... It's not a very powerful option. Losing those spells isn't worth the bab, armor and hit dice.

[Cog]

On the battle sorcerer... It's not a very powerful option. Losing those spells isn't worth the bab, armor and hit dice.
Rather, it's not powerful compared to the standard Sorcerer. The regular version of the class edges up toward tier 1; that Battle Sorcerer falls short of that mark (while still certainly being a tier 2 class) isn't a weakness.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you can get a gish lite that would fit into a lot of games with a trapfinding ranger into trapsmith. Use trapsmith spellcasting advancement with swiftblade.

Grab yourself a wand of CLW, umd enough to read scrolls heal (for cureing every status effect under the sun) and break enchantment.

You can fight in melee well, cast some spells, search for traps with your high skill points, and survive with survival skills.

Able learner will let you keep up with all the nice class skills.

More martial than a traditional gish, but solid 1-20 in a non-optimised game.

[drakir_nosslin]

Both druids and clerics can be made into good gishes. Druid with the help of wild shape, natural spell and a bunch of great buffs. Cleric has (among others) divine power and DMM which helps a lot.

[gbprime]

If you're wanting to keep it simple, then I second Battle Sorceror --> Swiftblade. After you max out Swiftblade, take Abjurant Champion. Done.

You can get another spell of each level by going to Dragon Magazine Compendium for a Bloodline caster feat. Very good use of a feat for a sorcerer type.

[Darth_Versity]

One of the simplist gishes that remains effective is a Stalwart Sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade 10

You can replace the Stalwart Sorcerer with Battle Sorcerer but its not really worth the lost spells. This gives a very effective spring attack style character that can play very different rolls depending on spell selection.

It is also very easy as it requires none of the crazy multi classing that the bit more powerful gishes require. When you finish Swiftblade just move into Abjurant Champion to finish the build off with a bit more BAB, full casting and some extras.

Edit: Damn Swordsages!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Battle sorcerer 6 /Eldritch Knight 10/Battle Sorcerer +4 will have +17 BAB and Casts as a level 19 Sorcerer

OTOH Battle Sorcerer 7/ Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 would cast a as battle sorcerer 19 and have the same BAB; but with a whole lot of other goodies.

[gbprime]

Oh, and as long as we're almost on the topic... spells and feats for gishes.

- Clearly for Swiftblade you need to take Haste as a choice.

- If you take Polymorph (or similar) as a spell choice, then you can take Minor Shapeshift as a feat, which allows you to use a free action to grant yourself Temp HP once a round.

- You also want to look at Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior once you're higher level, as it lets you sack spells for hit and damage bonuses.

[Tyndmyr]

Sorry, I should have also added in that his particular player doesn't care for multiclassing. Anything beyond two classes will be pushing it.

The Battle Sorcerer sounds like a nice bet, thank you.

Point him toward Eldritch Knight. Pretty much wizard, and a level of fighter, then merrily continue on EK until finished. It's fairly uncomplicated.

[Krazzman]

Duskblade
Beguiler
Bard
BattleSorc
Fighter/(Wizard/Sorceror)

All good starters for gishes. Then seek out PrC you like and good look in Arcane Smiting!

Have a nice Day
Krazzman

[hex0]

Trapsmith is nice for getting into Swiftblade. But it costs you TWO levels of spell casting in addition to the FOUR that Swiftblade takes from you. Of course, you have more options (from the Trapsmith and from the trapfinding class), AND you are fast and hard to hit...but you'll max out at 14. Not that there is anything wrong with 7th level spells.

Or just play a Duskblade.

Or just play a Sorcadin.

Or do some kind of Sorcadin Swiftblade.

[Fouredged Sword]

I was offering an alternative to a gish that was sorta a gish light.

Ranger 5 / spellthief 1 / trapsmith 1 / swiftblade 10 / trapsmith x.

Get Sword of the arcane order for ranger or whatever the ACF is that lets them cast arcane spells. Spellthief and master spellthief let all caster levels stack and casting in light armor. Trapsmith grants awsome spells at very low levels. Swiftblade grants a second standard action.

Pick up craven and greater manyshot. Now you loose two flurries of greater manyshot with craven damage on each arrow, and still have a move action.

Not really a gish per say, but not a bad ranged fighter/spellcaster/skill monkey.

Practicly able to adventure by himself actualy. A few nice scrolls and wands to cover his bases of spells he can't get himself and he is fairly good to go.

[hex0]

I was offering an alternative to a gish that was sorta a gish light.

Ranger 5 / spellthief 1 / trapsmith 1 / swiftblade 10 / trapsmith x.

Get Sword of the arcane order for ranger or whatever the ACF is that lets them cast arcane spells. Spellthief and master spellthief let all caster levels stack and casting in light armor. Trapsmith grants awsome spells at very low levels. Swiftblade grants a second standard action.

Pick up craven and greater manyshot. Now you loose two flurries of greater manyshot with craven damage on each arrow, and still have a move action.

Not really a gish per say, but not a bad ranged fighter/spellcaster/skill monkey.

Practicly able to adventure by himself actualy. A few nice scrolls and wands to cover his bases of spells he can't get himself and he is fairly good to go.


Problem is, Trapsmith is only five levels long so the +6 caster levels of Swiftblade is a bit of a waste.

Hexblade 5/Spellthief 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant 3 would work just slightly better.

[flabort]

If I understand what the OP meant by "Simple", it's not <=3 classes, guys. it's <=1 class. Not even a PrC. So, in all odds, I'd recommend spontaneous smite cleric (That's using two UA variants), which is one single class, easy to track, has good non-casty capability (not great, but fairly OK).

I'd recommend going with a ranged build. take that feat that lets you apply Wis to hit. Or Crossbow Sniper. You'd be MAD, and it would be pretty dumb, to take both. But either one is nice.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm a fan of Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5. Or Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard +2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight +8

[Optimator]

Without multiclassing any gish will be pretty weaksauce.

[Fax Celestis]

You can wrangle some interesting gishy things out of a Duskblade/Wizard/Ultimate Magus, especially if you know how to get around the BAB deficiency (by, say, UMDing a wand of divine power or using an aptitude weapon). Easiest entry is Dusk 1/Wiz 3, but as Dusk 3 gives channeling my recommendation is Dusk 3/Wiz 3 for entry, taking Practiced Spellcaster as desired.

[Curious]

Thirding Magus, an excellent base class that combines spellcasting and combat very well.

[Amphetryon]

Dread Necromancer 10/Rainbow Servant 10, assuming Arcane Disciple is available to your friend and Text Trumps Table.

[Grendus]

With no multiclassing, I'd suggest either allowing the Magus from Pathfinder, a Battle Sorcerer, or a Duskblade. Not a big fan of the latter two though, you end up with either poor HP, poor casting, or both. Try to slip the Magus through.

[Psyren]

With the "no multiclassing" requirement, his best bet is a gish-in-a-can, like Duskblade, Magus or Psychic Warrior.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Single classed I would vote for a psychic warrior.

[hex0]

Single classed I would vote for a psychic warrior.

If no psionics, Duskblade would be the best, although after 13 it is slim pickens. hexblade is not as strong as Duskblade in my opinion but it has more class level dependent abilities.

[MeeposFire]

Psywar is great if you are willing to reflavor it as special magic (really the mental part is just fluff so changing it is not a big deal).

Duskblade is great if gish means casting spells and blowing stuff up while swinging a sword. It is the best at that.

Hexblade is effective if you want something that debuffs well. Still would want to multiclass in all likelyhood so it may not be the best choice.

Magus is similar to the duskblade but trades warrior ability for better spells.

Long story short play a psywar if you want the most complete package.

Take duskblade if you want to beat things up more and use casting for extra punch.

Take magus if you want "wizard lite" casting and decent (but not great) warrior ability.

[Curious]

Psywar is great if you are willing to reflavor it as special magic (really the mental part is just fluff so changing it is not a big deal).

Duskblade is great if gish means casting spells and blowing stuff up while swinging a sword. It is the best at that.

Hexblade is effective if you want something that debuffs well. Still would want to multiclass in all likelyhood so it may not be the best choice.

Magus is similar to the duskblade but trades warrior ability for better spells.

Long story short play a psywar if you want the most complete package.

Take duskblade if you want to beat things up more and use casting for extra punch.

Take magus if you want "wizard lite" casting and decent (but not great) warrior ability.

I really don't agree with the 'wizard-lite' description of the Magus. It's two defining, and most powerful, class features (Spell combat and Spell Strike) are both usable only in melee. Not only that, but their action economy advantage, plus their spell pool enhancements, means that most Magi won't even be much behind a Duskblade in terms of to hit bonuses and damage per round. Magi are what they are; a near perfect blend of warrior and caster in a base class format.

[Coidzor]

Sorry, I should have also added in that his particular player doesn't care for multiclassing. Anything beyond two classes will be pushing it.

Kind of odd to be so adamantly against multiclassing when going for a Fighter-Mage. :smallconfused:

Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine 336 was it?) with the Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor, IIRC) featalternate 6th level class feature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell) is the one-stop shop for turning into a dinosaur and biting people's faces off while buffed with wizard spells.

Tack on the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat and the trapfinding ACF from Dungeonscape and you'll be able to appreciate that it is not called the One-Man E6 Party* for nothing.

*Or whatever it's actually called in relation to e6

[MeeposFire]

I really don't agree with the 'wizard-lite' description of the Magus. It's two defining, and most powerful, class features (Spell combat and Spell Strike) are both usable only in melee. Not only that, but their action economy advantage, plus their spell pool enhancements, means that most Magi won't even be much behind a Duskblade in terms of to hit bonuses and damage per round. Magi are what they are; a near perfect blend of warrior and caster in a base class format.

Those class features you mention by themselves are essentially a more versatile low level flurry. The important part is the better spell access that the magus possesses. If the magus had the duskblade spell list it would be worse than a duskblade and if the duskblade had the magus spell list and spells it would be better than the magus. The magus single greatest advantage is its ability to cast from a better list.

Also my basic premise is unchanged Duskbaldes are better warriors and the magus is a better caster. The duskblade can do more damage but the magus is much more versatile (due to its spells). Perhaps you do not like the adjectives I used to describe the classes but the idea behind my statement is sound.

[Little Brother]

Kind of odd to be so adamantly against multiclassing when going for a Fighter-Mage. :smallconfused:

Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine 366 was it?) with the Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor, IIRC)326, I think

And I vote for either Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 6, or something like that, just a basic Sorcadin.

Or, with no multiclassing, just a straight Melee bard. Finesse, Snowflake Wardance, KnowDev(Preferably also Jack of all trades+Bardic Knack), stuff like a MWK Lute(CompAdv), Vest of Legends(DMG2), other IC maxing, Slippers of Battledancing(DMGII, I think), an Echoblade(MIC), and might as well nab the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows(DrComp). And Dragonfire Inspiration with a Pyroclastic dragon.

That gives you Charisma to hit (Wardance), to hit instead of strength(Slippers), to damage(Gauntlets), to damage instead of strength(Slippers), you get your IC to hit/damage, or have DI for +Bajilliond6 damage, you have +3 or more to hit/damage with KnowDev, you get I think half your bard level with the Echoblade while singing, so, yeah, if you move 10 feet or more, you deal 2Cha+5+10+1+IC, so at least a 6, probably an 8 at level 20, or, with charisma of 30(Easy), you get 54+weapon enhancements+buffs, or 46 +8d6 Sonic, +8d6 to the rest of your party, and that's ignoring the Book of Exalted Cheese.

And this is off the top of my head.

Bards are awesome.

[MeeposFire]

OOo I forgot about bards yes they are awesome but they do take book dumpster diving to get the most out of them. Still if you like buffing yourself and the party (and you want skills) bard is a fine choice.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Magus is awesome. As is psychic Warrior. Also, are we talking about party buffs or self buffs, because that's going to make a difference.

Also what's his race?

[Keegan__D]

Battle Sorcerer (UA) and Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) can go together if he's more interested in combat than spells. Think of it as chargeless wands he gets for free as he levels up. Get an animal companion with the UA variant (pg 58), or a combat familiar with the feat, and keep it in one class. Maybe dip into fighter for the feats and BAB. Though, the HP loss is a downer.

[Tvtyrant]

The best single classed gish is probably a highly ACF'd Ranger, followed by a Magus or Duskblade. Duskblade is good for pounding on people, especially with Arcane Strike, while the Magus spends more time casting and less time beating. Its kinda like an arcane Psywarrior. Psywarrior is good too, but its not magic and its abilities are really at their best when they multiclass (as many other classes are).

One of the advantages of the Duskblade is it can use a charge on iterative attacks later in its life, and with a source of pounce (I suggest a single level of Barbarian or asking for a swift action spell that grants it) you can do tons of damage with touch attacks.

[Thiyr]

Well, I've always been a fan of the Suel Archanamach, and was just wondering how a warblade/archamach/abjurant champion would work out, but that's probably one too many classes. A battle-bard could actually be really interesting if you use snowflake wardance and dragonfire inspiration along with some buffing from elsewhere, and depending on if they want to emphasize casting or smashing more, they can go either sublime chord (just a bunch of skill prereqs, only one of which being really odd) or War Chanter (needs a specific perform, but not too bad, and two feats, but again, not too bad. Obviously the second cuts off casting for the most part, but it does provide some other nifty stuff).

[flabort]

It's not a class, but may I point out that Gestalt is a Gish in a Can, too? :smalltongue:

Just kidding. To cheat and give him a Gestalt character in a non-gestalt game would be cruel. Although, I have the idea for a house rule that lets that happen:
The gestalt character is considered to be his levelx1.5 for gaining experience and level increases. So a 4th level gestalt character gets XP as if he were 6th (rather than soaking up XP that belongs to the 6th level characters in the campaign), and upon reaching the XP needed to get to 6th level, becomes 5th. Odd levels would result in 7.5, and such, so round up.
{table]Gestalt level|Effective level
1|2
2|3
3|5
4|6
5|8
6|9
7|11
8|12
9|14
10|15[/table]
etc.

Also, no 2nd or 1st tier for the gestalt characters. 3rd or less only. No PrCs, either, just base classes.

Now, this is, again, a house rule. And, probably not relevant to this thread at all. But, if you're the DM, you could allow it for this player. He could be Very Gishy.

[Curious]

-Snip-

A more versatile low level flurry? Are we even reading the same thing? Those two class features make touch attacks more powerful (Spellstrike), and allow you to cast a free standard action spell when you full attack (Spell Combat). That is absolutely nothing like a 'versatile flurry'. You can buff, de-buff, do some battlefield control, or even throw out damage if you like. They provide a massive action economy boost. The only thing remotely flurry-like about them is the ability to gain an extra attack in conjunction with a touch attack, which you certainly won't be doing all the time.

While I will admit the Magus' spell list is one of its greater strengths, even if its spell list were more restrictive it would still be very good at using spells in conjunction with melee that don't do direct damage. Wizard-lite is not a perfectly accurate summary.

[Socratov]

ok, so not arcane, and maybe not exactly gish, but i heard great things about cleric of ehlonna (be an elf) and archery, allowing you to cast truestrike and shoot the hell out of anything (they don't even have to be moving :) ). Or ordained champions, however the last one would require you to either worship hextor or heironeous. it's easy, you can cast (-ish), you can hit (hard!) and you can troll the living daylights out of your party :D

[JaronK]

As a general note, three classes are standard for gishes... one casting class, one full BAB class, and one PrC that mixes the two concepts. Also, since most gish PrCs aren't that long, a fourth is often thrown in at the end.

If he really doesn't like multiclassing, then what about Duskblade? It's a gish base class.

JaronK

[Kansaschaser]

It seems like several months ago when people were building Gishes, they never included the Swiftblade. It was always Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. When did people start comming around about the Swiftblade in the Gish-o-pedia?

[Coidzor]

^: Cyclical thing, since taking it forbids 9ths, or, more importantly, delays spell levels to 3-5 behind full casters.
Wizard-lite is not a perfectly accurate summary.

It doesn't need to be in order to be a useful categorization of the Magus's casting and buffing abilities in order to do the gish part of gishing.


As a general note, three classes are standard for gishes... one casting class, one full BAB class, and one PrC that mixes the two concepts. Also, since most gish PrCs aren't that long, a fourth is often thrown in at the end.

If he really doesn't like multiclassing, then what about Duskblade? It's a gish base class.

JaronK

It's like Theurging! With Beatstick!

[gbprime]

It seems like several months ago when people were building Gishes, they never included the Swiftblade. It was always Eldritch Knight and Abjurant Champion. When did people start comming around about the Swiftblade in the Gish-o-pedia?

Swiftblade is a tough choice. The haste abilities are awesome, but it's giving up another 5 levels of casting over the character's career, effectively giving up on getting 7th-9th level spells until epic levels. By using Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom) instead, you can hit 9th level spells and 17-19 BAB by 20th level.

I'm still on the fence with it, myself.

[CTrees]

My recommendations:

1) Port in Magus. It's likely exactly what he wants.

2) Cleric or Druid. Arcane may be the more "traditional" gish, and "rawr I'm a bear, with a bear, riding a bear, summoning more bears with eyebeams that shoot bears made of fire" is a little more of a stretch of the normal gish-feel, but CoDzilla is a term for a reason.

3) And for the suggestion so inevitable from me that I almost think I should add it as my signature... Port in Synthesist Summoner from PF. I'm just way too in love with the class, and it works as a gish-in-a-can, given the discounted spells.

[Kansaschaser]

Swiftblade is a tough choice. The haste abilities are awesome, but it's giving up another 5 levels of casting over the character's career, effectively giving up on getting 7th-9th level spells until epic levels. By using Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom) instead, you can hit 9th level spells and 17-19 BAB by 20th level.

I'm still on the fence with it, myself.

I love the theme of the Swiftblade, but when ever I tried to suggest it for someone's Gish build, I was always shot down. Now I've seen 5-6 people in this thread talk about adding the Swiftblade.

I would suggest for this build that he only take the Swiftblade if he wants a speedy gish that's hopped up on too much coffee.

[Hirax]

Swiftblade is a tough choice. The haste abilities are awesome, but it's giving up another 5 levels of casting over the character's career, effectively giving up on getting 7th-9th level spells until epic levels. By using Eldritch Knight (or Knight Phantom) instead, you can hit 9th level spells and 17-19 BAB by 20th level.

I'm still on the fence with it, myself.

Swiftblade9 can still get you 9th level spells on a wizard progression, you only lose 3 caster levels. Wizard2/m. specialist4/swift9/ab champ5, or wizard5/mindbender1/swift9/ab champ5 for a couple examples. Swiftblade 10 is only useful in situations where you won't have access to the time stop spell. in gestalt if you can combine it with factotum in some way, yay more actions! Even a factotum9/ pounce barbarian1/swiftblade10 wouldn't be so bad. Who can argue with 2 extra standard actions in a turn, on top of a full attack on a charge? edit: though on further consideration swiftblade10 wouldn't be good for the factotum build, on account of only have 1 6th level spell slot. But otherwise you could caste haste, polymorph, greater invisibility, then fly into a pouncing whirling frenzy all on your first turn. You'd get your int to initiative twice, chances are good you'll be going first, too.

[MeeposFire]

A more versatile low level flurry? Are we even reading the same thing? Those two class features make touch attacks more powerful (Spellstrike), and allow you to cast a free standard action spell when you full attack (Spell Combat). That is absolutely nothing like a 'versatile flurry'. You can buff, de-buff, do some battlefield control, or even throw out damage if you like. They provide a massive action economy boost. The only thing remotely flurry-like about them is the ability to gain an extra attack in conjunction with a touch attack, which you certainly won't be doing all the time.

While I will admit the Magus' spell list is one of its greater strengths, even if its spell list were more restrictive it would still be very good at using spells in conjunction with melee that don't do direct damage. Wizard-lite is not a perfectly accurate summary.

Spell strike-let you get an attack if using a spell- Its power is directly related to the spell you are using.

Spell combat-flurry where the extra attack will be a spell. Once again the spell determines the power of the feature.
\
As an example if you use arcane mark (since it is at will and is touch) with those two you essentially get a level 1 flurry (extra attack with a -2 to all attacks). That is the base. Thus the quality of the feature alone is essentially flurry. It only becomes better if you use a quality spell which means that the power is in the spell list and the spells not these class features.

A magus with the duskblade list and spells would be worse than a duskblade. The duskblade would be more accurate, more damaging to more targets, has more nova options due to quickened spells, and would never provoke. The magus is built around the idea of being able to cast the wizard like spells that it has and it was not designed to beat the duskblade at its own game (channeling damage in melee). If you are a magus and you pick spells like you were a duskblade then you really don't get the class and you might as well play a duskblade.

Also the bolded section says that in reality you are agreeing with me. Those things are not due to the class features you are speaking about. They are from the spells you are able to cast. If you lacked those spells that feature is not strong on its own. I feel you are taking the magus's big bonus (the spells) and wrongfully attributing it to the spell combat and spell strike class abilities.