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Rapidghoul
2011-09-28, 06:35 PM
General outline / TL;DR - how do you keep players from commandeering an entire campaign or session, be it side-tracking, solo optimizing, or otherwise not being a team player?

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I've been DMing a campaign for a few months now. It's a group of friends, and they all get along well enough. The trouble I have is the rogue tends to try to solo too much or build on his character's story. Beyond the point of being a loner or any legitimate excuse in a team game like d&d.

This has become a more serious problem as of late since the other players have begun bringing things to do while he does this. The fighter and bard have their iPads out and are playing plants vs. zombies, the cleric talks with my girlfriend or knits, stuff like that.

In combat I have a couple tricks (most things have Uncanny Dodge now, and I gave an Amulet of Teamwork (MIC 70) for teamwork bonuses). It's more the roleplaying part that's an issue. For perspective, I asked for a little backstory from each player before starting the campaign; the others gave me a paragraph or two each. He gave me four pages.

I'm not against character development at all. It's just that he goes overboard. I hate single-player-focusing and making the other players bored. It's been a problem in two campaigns I played in before, and both fell apart in large part due to it.

So what ways do you have to discourage side-tracking without discouraging overall roleplaying? I don't want to resort to killing off his story, but I can't stand seeing players have to entertain themselves because of it either.

Medic!
2011-09-28, 07:04 PM
IMO, you've got three basic paths to follow here.

#1: Talk to your player and ask him to try to truncate his solo missions to help keep everyone involved.

#2: I've run into several spot-light problems myself DMing campaigns at home. Usually when someone is demanding more than their fair share of the spot-light I simply cut back to the main party and ask them what they're doing to give equal time to the solo rogue scouting ahead an the party stuck thumbing their bungholes at the last intersection. If it really starts to be an issue, every time your rogue runs off and starts taking up a more than neccessary amount of time, break it into combat round timing.

Rogue: I move up and peak around the corner...
DM: Ok, while you're moving up, we'll switch back to the party real quick. Your rogue's been gone for about 2 minutes now with no word back.

etc etc...if you really want to make him nervous, call for initiatives just to adjudication who does what when, but don't tell them that. This will really slow down game play, but it will serve as an example that it's less fun for everyone and really slows things down when the party splits unneccessarily.

Sometimes PCs really do have to go off alone, and it seems like it's a real hassle when the rogue, as an example, is ahead scouting/searching through the entire dungeon, getting as much or more spot-light than the rest of the party combined. If your players can put up with it, you can reward them with more face time in town, during main combats, etc.


Or #3: You can be dirty, sneaky, underhanded, and if you're really lucky, hillarious. This involves things like pit-fall traps with rediculous DCs, walls of force, etc to seperate your solo PC from the party and do awful terrible (meanlock anyone?) things to him as punishment. I really don't advise taking this route unless you want to end up in the "Worst Game Ever" thread. If you're very careful and creative about how you do it, and read your players really well, you might be able to pull off something like this and still have them enjoy it, learning a lesson about TOO MUCH time alone, without it being so fun that that they constantly provoke the circumstance, or so awful that it devolves into a petty ******* contest.

DogbertLinc
2011-09-28, 07:04 PM
Talk to him and ask to tone it down a bit and to let other people have their moment in the spotlight.

If he isn't ok with this, tell him he is being a douche.

If he wants to continue being a douche, tell him ou shall do your best to tone down his spotlight as much as possible.

Kaun
2011-09-28, 07:13 PM
Just bounce the game back to the other players, he may be trying to hog the spotlight but you are in control of it.

If he is trying to brake into the Wizard kings tower by himself to steal some McGuffin that's fine but if hes only 25% of the party don't give him more then 25% of the session time.

Encourage the other players in their characters goals, reward them for their team work and give them their fair share of the spotlight.

Just because hes the loudest doesn't mean hes the only one you should listen too. If your letting him get away with it your other players probably think this is how the game is meant to be.

bloodtide
2011-09-28, 07:31 PM
And easy out is to try a solo game or two or three with the one player. Set up a time where they can do their own thing.


Or just make the 'side quest' the main quest. Suddenly have the players side quest fit right into the main group quest. ''Lord Obmat is behind the goblin raids....but he also killed my father!"


If you feel you 'must' have a side quest, another trick is to just make it tough. Make it something the character can't do alone. Combat is easy, as a single character can't take on a golem guard. But role playing works too...the rouge can't get into the mages guild as a guest without a mage being with him, for example.

Anderlith
2011-09-28, 08:19 PM
Goblin Ambush, that is all

Gavinfoxx
2011-09-28, 09:18 PM
"Okay, you go off and do your solo thing, but since this is a group game, we're going to ignore the results of that, and focus on the group. What happens with you guys next?"

valadil
2011-09-28, 11:36 PM
Run the solo stuff outside of the game session.

Or, make his personal plot into the main plot of the game so the whole group has to participate in it. If he's giving you 4 pages of backstory, he must be giving you some plot hooks and telling you that he'll run after those plot hooks. Involve the whole party in them, and you'll no longer have a solo player situation.

Yhynens
2011-09-28, 11:53 PM
Run the solo stuff outside of the game session.

Or, make his personal plot into the main plot of the game so the whole group has to participate in it. If he's giving you 4 pages of backstory, he must be giving you some plot hooks and telling you that he'll run after those plot hooks. Involve the whole party in them, and you'll no longer have a solo player situation.

Second option's even better if you could manage to work in some other characters' plot hooks somehow, since it wouldn't seem like they were all just doing that one guy's quest. The most interesting groups are ones where everyone has a reason for being there.

...I really like the goblin ambush scenario, though ;p

Anderlith
2011-09-28, 11:56 PM
If you play with 5 people each person should get 1/5 of your time. Even if they go off by themselves keep to this principle.

Mastikator
2011-09-29, 07:55 AM
Could you ask him if he wants to run solo missions on a separate session?

That's usually how we develop the player's characters backgrounds. We discuss the PC (player and the DM) and roleplay some of the background before the main game session begins, that way everyone get a feel of their character begins, the DM has a deep understanding of the PCs and the players intentions and it doesn't take the time of other players.

Kurald Galain
2011-09-29, 09:18 AM
Encourage other players to converse in character while you're focusing on the solo player.

Also, after the solo player is done, focus on what the rest of the party was doing in the meantime, and remind the solo player that he isn't there because he was off being solo. Solo players don't really bother me, but solo players who insist on simultaneously being present with the rest of the group do.

Traab
2011-09-29, 09:19 AM
Point out to him the fact that he is boring everyone else so much with his spotlight hogging that they are all doing other things instead of playing. You have to be pretty willfully oblivious to miss the fact that your grand solo epic is ruining the game for everyone else when they are right there at the table with you playing computer games or talking amongst themselves.

Or you could suggest a new tactic, the party isnt sitting in the hallway waiting patiently for 3 hours for the rogue to finish solo exploring every single room in the dungeon, they are following one corridor behind. The rogue is doing his job of disarming traps, (presumably) so its safe enough to do this. And that way, instead of random encounters you have the rogue spot a squad of whatever coming towards them and can head back to warn the group. That way you can switch back and forth between everyone and spotlight boy is no longer the main focus. Its still not very exciting, as the rogue is finding all the trap ahead of time, but its better than sitting there taking naps while you wait.

As a final option, take him aside and say, "Look, I appreciate the way you are trying to rp your guy, I really do, but its making the game boring for everyone else because they tend to have little to do. From now on, stick with the party instead of wandering off to have your own personal adventures. You can still rp and do all that, but make it a group effort, ok?"

Silus
2011-09-29, 10:12 AM
Well, you could always just throw party-appropriate encounters at him.

Like that group of baddies in room 1A is meant to be tackled by a group of 4, have them aggro onto the one little Rogue. If he survives, should prove a point that he should not split the party.

The Glyphstone
2011-09-29, 10:15 AM
I got the impression isn't not just splitting the party, but trying to pursue an entirely different plot. In the dungeon, say, there may be Room 1A with monsters for a 4-person party, but they fight a 3-person party because the rogue left the dungeon entirely to visit the city and hunt down another pickpocket he has a grudge against from his backstory.

Kurald Galain
2011-09-29, 10:18 AM
If all else fails, go and find the Omega Table.

(it's a 1d100 table you're supposed to roll on for a character who goes off all by himself, and most of the table are variations on "you die horribly").

Reluctance
2011-09-29, 10:25 AM
He could either be your generic spotlight hog, or he might be an actor-wannabe who sees total immersion as the ideal form of roleplaying. The two have enough overlap that distinguishing them can often be academic.

If he just wants more character growth and you have the time/attention span for it, see if you can convince him to do his sidequests between sessions. You two email back and forth, his character gets the attention and development he craves, and then group time gets to be about the group.

If he insists on turning everything into his personal story at the expense of the group, it's your job to recenter the spotlight. Everybody else has already given good advice on how to return the game to everybody else.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-30, 08:02 AM
I've been DMing a campaign for a few months now. It's a group of friends, and they all get along well enough. The trouble I have is the rogue tends to try to solo too much or build on his character's story. Beyond the point of being a loner or any legitimate excuse in a team game like d&d.

In my world, combat encounters do not get any easier because you opted to go solo instead of bringing the team. I make sure that everyone knows this in advance.

In practice, this generally means that the dude soloing is eventually going to be caught out in a bad situation, and horribly killed. My players *usually* don't try to outright kill each other, but if someone in combat is terribly harmful to his own side repeatedly...such as one character who loved to cast stinking cloud on the party repeatedly because he was undead, and therefore, immune. They killed the hell out of him.

Anti-social people do not need special punishments...just the punishments that real life applies to them. If you go scouting alone and far from help...bad things can and will happen to you. If you anger the party sufficiently, you may no longer be in the party.

Edit: Also, even if the party is split, I share time evenly. This frequently means pausing in mid scene so another group get a turn to go. They could all pursue individual goals separately if they wish, but by doing so, they risk a lot, and get a lot less time in the action for each of them.

the_fencer0
2011-09-30, 12:00 PM
Hmmm. I've DM and been in more than one campaign where a player wants to do their own thing in spite of the party.

Problem is, DnD is not a single person game (for the most part. It can be done, but requires significant effort on the DM's part to not get the player killed), but a group game. The PCs, individually, are not able to accomplish the goals they need to do. They must work together if they are to succeed.

So, as many have gone and told you, if he goes off on his lonesome, get him killed. Or, better yet, you can reward the people who stayed behind. While he's off scouting and finding nothing, have the party stumble across a battle with some above average goodies and XP that he misses out on because he wanted to pull an Etzio.

Also, for story, have his fall through. His contact can find any info the party's current problems, no matter how hard he tries. His mentor dies of pnemonia. His advesary just can't be found. His parents arn't really dead, they just didn't love him because he was being a prick and abandoned him, much like the party might do if he continues to act this way. He might be in control of his character and his backstory, but you as DM control the world. If his backstory gets out of control, make things happen around it that cripple it a bit. Tie in another player's back story to his. Maybe another PC has the info he needs on that rat bastard who push him when he was 6, or put the sacred relic of his family behind a prismatic sphere. Just like in life, random things happen that he has no control over, and he has to deal with it.

Anxe
2011-09-30, 06:06 PM
One of my players likes to do that occasionally. If its a short tangent, we do it in session. If not, we handle it over gmail later on. Usually we know how it'll turn out, so the effects are still present in the session when it comes up.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-10-01, 10:45 AM
Need moar information.
If the problem is that the rogue is soloing combats (and you're in 3.P) then you have party optimization problems. If not, then I'd recommend against tweaking the enemies to make the Spotlight Player's abilities worthless -- that merely makes the game less fun for him, and makes him feel put upon.

If the problem is that everyone but the Spotlight Player is bored, then you need to find a way to engage them all in the story. If they're not engaged because the Spotlight Player has decided to make the story all about him then you can either tweak "his" story to be engaging to the other Players or sit them all down and figure out what the heck will make them all happy.

If the problem is just that the Spotlight Player is constantly splitting the party, it is easy enough to make that punishing for the Spotlight Player. Rogues in any edition should not be able to solo encounters designed for a full party.
So, OP, what is it? :smallconfused:

Rapidghoul
2011-10-05, 01:10 PM
I should clarify what the problem was a bit more: the other players tend to shut down when someone goes solo-bound. The rest just don't do as much in-character solo, which makes spotlight bouncing a little more difficult and bores the whole party. When it works though, "non-combat rounds" is fantastic. Similarly, encouraging the group to go with the rogue is tricky (LG, NG, and CG party with a CN rogue), but occasionally helps a lot.

That said, things went a bit better this time.
I talked with the player a little about his plans. He mentioned wanting to prestige class into a more melee attacker so he would able to survive longer by himself. I told him flat out if that was his plan I wouldn't allow the prestige class or anything like it.
When we actually had the last session, everyone started jabbing at him for running out by himself; all I had to do was bring it up, and everyone else went on about him taking up time just to die, so now at least he knows everyone is annoyed by it.
He ran ahead to loot a corpse before the party got there, so I handed him a postcard with the loot on it (the Amulet of Teamwork) and he loudly blurted out "Oh you ****head!" and laughed. Later he ran to the shady part of town by himself, I had a couple NPCs rob him and steal most of his weapons (leaving just his primary set). He ran back to the fighter (a former city guard) to help him, and suddenly everything went smoothly. He doesn't seem to mind dying, but if I take away his loot, suddenly he wants protection.

I also went around the table asking what people wanted to do before playing it out, which I think helped the less-roleplay-y players plan out stuff to do. Afterwards I told them we would handle item shopping over facebook or IMing to skip that mess in game.

I like a lot of the ideas brought up here. Some things I've been doing (keeping the encounters party level, not individual level), but it's good hearing that I'm not unfair / crazy for doing so. Giving the rest of the party something shiny while he runs ahead, merging the back stories (a bit tricky, but possible with a few sessions' worth of work), stuff like that seems like it will help quite a bit.

Shadespyre
2011-10-07, 02:00 PM
Well, the least helpful point first - as the DM, you have to LET problems like this happen. Ultimately, it's your game so your rules. Do you vet characters before they are played? If not, you should! If you do, you should have nipped the CN Rogue idea in the bud as "not appropriate to the sort of game I intend to run". No one who creates a CN rogue is planning to run him as a team player! Okay, a bit late to change that now...

As others have suggested, you can just ban the player / character from acting like this (up to and including the point of kicking both out of your game - it's YOUR game) or you can act "fairly" to change his behaviour - assuming you think he deserves to stay around. So:

1 - when characters are separated, separate the players. Exclude the loner from the room when he's "away". To emphasise that he is out on a limb, take your dice and notes out to him when running his bits - leave the core party in possession of the comfy chairs and the chips and dips! Encourage them to roleplay, or ponder their next actions, together in your absence.

2 - run to a clock. You have 4 players - give him 5 minutes, then give them 15. If you must give him 10, they get 30. Which means half an hour sat in your hallway for him.

3 - DO NOT edit the content or behaviour of your adventure. If there are 12 orc barbarians in a room, there are always 12, whether 1, 2 or 10 PCs walk through the door. And they are just as smart / angry / hungry or whatever.

4 - Never give a sucker an even break! The soloist is passing on Lady Luck's help by putting himself out on a limb.

5 - I wouldn't try to tempt him back to the party by handing them easy treasures. In fact, rule 3 applies to them too - his being absent may put THEM in extra jeopardy, which OUGHT to be a lesson to him as well...

Finally, in "real life" chances are 3 people who get on would soon jettison the 4th they all dislike from their social plans. This is only going to be more the case when your social plans regularly put your life in danger! Let the other CHARACTERS tell him exactly what they think, and if he won't tow the line let THEM expel him from their group. Just try to keep it about CHARACTERS not PLAYERS :) He gets a new character (LG? :) ) and they get a new rival / villain / occasional guest star.

Kurald Galain
2011-10-07, 02:12 PM
As others have suggested, you can just ban the player / character from acting like this (up to and including the point of kicking both out of your game - it's YOUR game) or you can act "fairly" to change his behaviour - assuming you think he deserves to stay around.

That's not "acting fairly", that's being passive agressive and downright nasty. I don't see how treating any player like that is going to help anything; if you're bothered by his behavior, be upfront and honest about it.

Shadespyre
2011-10-07, 03:02 PM
Sorry, I thought I'd covered "up front and honest" in the bit at the start about character vetting. I also assumed Rapid didn't want to take that approach, else he would have done and would never have posted this thread... :)

For the record, I would consider "downright nasty" to include modifying my adventure to specifically target the lone wolf, which I have not advocated. Yet.

Still, I've only been running RPGs since 1981 so I could be talking nonsense. Old people often do...

Jayabalard
2011-10-07, 04:40 PM
You could always set him up so that he puts himself into a situation where he can't get back to the party before X amount of time elapses, go back to the party, and tell him that you'll run what he's doing as a solo adventure at a later time (before the next session).

Templarkommando
2011-10-13, 12:35 PM
You might put an occasional trap in a dungeon that is very difficult to detect, and quite deadly, but basically worthless as a trap if (Edit: If not unless) you are traveling with more than one person.

Kind of like a Chinese finger trap. If the player struggles to get out it just gets him more confined or damaged or whatever.

Before someone tries to point out that this is unfairly targeting the lone wolf, consider the following.

It is not uncommon to encounter traps like this in the real world. For example, Ireland is famous for having bogs and marshes that can swallow someone alive if they aren't careful. Quicksand is also an example of a similar trap. (regardless of whether or not quicksand is an actual thing, it is still a common ploy in the action/adventure genre).

I frequently set glue traps to catch mice that wander into the house. Usually if just one mouse gets caught, he'll sit there struggling for quite a long time trying to escape, if he has a buddy, they stand a better chance of escaping.

That said, if you want to be a little mean-spirited, instead of a peat bog or the like that would require an escape artist check or a Dex related skill to escape, a trap with a similar effect that requires a fortitude or will save.

So, the lone wolf wanders into a "mind trap." (Sepia Snake Sigil might be a good idea) More likely than not he fails his will save and stands dumbfounded with a blank stare until some creature wanders up to wake him up. It's the sort of trap I would set as a good aligned wizard. I don't want to kill anyone, but I also don't want them sneaking into my stash of awesome magical items or killing my expensive and exotic pets.