Is +2 damage worth eating 3 levels?

[alzagor]

Simple question -- is it really worth eating up 3 character levels to gain a +2 to damage? (Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike: add INT bonus to damage)

[maximus25]

I want to say no...

[Eurus]

Simple question -- is it really worth eating up 3 character levels to gain a +2 to damage? (Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike: add INT bonus to damage)

Er, almost certainly not. You can get that much from a single feat. A bad feat.

[pffh]

Short answer no. Long answer if you're going rogue/swashbuckler then yeah sure if you grab the daring outlaw feat.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The more specific question is, is it worth taking Swashbuckler for N levels, where N > 0, and the answer is no.

Edit: Forgot about Daring Outlaw as above, whoops

[Hirax]

Well, if that's the only benefit you'd be getting then not worth it as far I can tell. But we're not getting the whole story here, perhaps post the whole build and let us know what direction you're trying to go?

[Kalirren]

Yeah, not worth it. You'd be better off even splashing Wizard for True Strike at that point.

[alzagor]

Awesome -- thanks for the super speedy replies!

This is what I thought, but I've seen a handful of builds out there that dip into Swashbuckler for this advantage. I kept wondering if I was missing something obvious. While getting Daring Outlaw allows you to stack Rogue Sneak Attacks, why not just stay Rogue if 3 levels of Swashbuckler are only going to yield you +2 (well that's my INT stat's bonus).

I'm guessing the same could be said for the Halfling Paragon levels (UA p.42)? At 2nd level you gain +2 to throwing damage. Of course that's one step away from the 3rd level +2 Dexterity -- which could be a great thing (aside from eating 3 levels).

[Seerow]

The reason why people like getting int to damage is because it can potentially be much more than +2.

While you have a 14 base right now. Down the line that can easily be a 24, so instead of a +2 to damage, you're looking at +12 to damage. Which is better than most any feat. Probably still not worth a 3 level dip by itself, but with daring outlaw you still get your sneak attack, and you pick up weapon finesse for free (which you likely would have spent the feat you put into daring outlaw on).

[skycycle blues]

Awesome -- thanks for the super speedy replies!

This is what I thought, but I've seen a handful of builds out there that dip into Swashbuckler for this advantage. I kept wondering if I was missing something obvious. While getting Daring Outlaw allows you to stack Rogue Sneak Attacks, why not just stay Rogue if 3 levels of Swashbuckler are only going to yield you +2 (well that's my INT stat's bonus).

I'm guessing the same could be said for the Halfling Paragon levels (UA p.42)? At 2nd level you gain +2 to throwing damage. Of course that's one step away from the 3rd level +2 Dexterity -- which could be a great thing (aside from eating 3 levels).

If you go Daring Outlaw, you take more levels of Swashbuckler, so you're pretty much a Rogue with higher BAB and HP, but the same SA.

[Douglas]

Swashbuckler 3 is a good dip for some builds, but not for many. You need considerably more than a +2 int bonus for it to be worthwhile, and you have to care about your melee attacks. That combination typically only comes up in gish builds that have int-based casting, and even for those it's often a better idea to spend those levels on more casting progression. The occasional rogue with high stats and Daring Outlaw can also make good use of it.

[Kalirren]

If you go Daring Outlaw, you take more levels of Swashbuckler, so you're pretty much a Rogue with higher BAB and HP, but the same SA.

Couldn't they just have errata'ed Rogue to additionally have the Swashbuckler HD and class features at that point?

[alzagor]

RE: BAB -- yeah, I had forgotten about that advantage for going Swashbuckler.

RE: Higher level INT bonuses -- It's been a long time since I've played higher levels. Is it fairly common to gain higher stats like that after 20th? Is it through external bonuses (items/spells) or to the core ability?

(I'm guessing there's a boat load of ways to up abilities)

[skycycle blues]

That kind of defeats the purpose of having to take the feat.

[The Glyphstone]

The reason why people like getting int to damage is because it can potentially be much more than +2.

While you have a 14 base right now. Down the line that can easily be a 24, so instead of a +2 to damage, you're looking at +12 to damage. Which is better than most any feat. Probably still not worth a 3 level dip by itself, but with daring outlaw you still get your sneak attack, and you pick up weapon finesse for free (which you likely would have spent the feat you put into daring outlaw on).

Er...a 24 Intelligence would be a +7, not a +12, unless I missed something.

[Seerow]

Er...a 24 Intelligence would be a +7, not a +12, unless I missed something.

The only thing you missed was me dividing 24 by 2 without subtracting 10 first. You are correct.

[Teln]

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm50/meowmeister/Bit_no.jpg

Text requirement

[tyckspoon]

RE: BAB -- yeah, I had forgotten about that advantage for going Swashbuckler.

RE: Higher level INT bonuses -- It's been a long time since I've played higher levels. Is it fairly common to gain higher stats like that after 20th? Is it through external bonuses (items/spells) or to the core ability?


External bonuses, usually; at a minimum, a +6 enhancement item for an off-stat is quite affordable around level 16, and is downright trivial by the time you're talking about level 20. Depending on how much you want to spend (or how your DM feels about free Wish tricks) you can also get up to a +5 worth in Inherent bonuses; if you're playing with level 20 wealth, you could probably get about the +2 Tome, but before that they cost too much to really be worth using except for your primary stat.

If you're going into Epic, the sky is the limit.. make friends with your party's spellcaster(s), get them to make an Epic spell to buff Int and cast it on you (if your spellcaster is a Wizard, he'll be doing this for himself anyway, so all you have to do is get him to craft it so it's not only Personal.) You can get a week-long +30-40 to Int that way without much trouble. It's harder without Epic Spells- the most efficient way is to try and get your DM to approve +Int items that use different bonus types so you can stack them. The Epic fee on the standard items is just not worth paying.

[Coidzor]

Fighter 1: Take Power Attack as the bonus feat, wield a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon in two hands.

You now have +2 to damage just from that level alone.

Duskblade 3: Channeling spells generally works out to more than +2 average damage, especially if arcane strike is mixed in with a ring of wizardry.

Totemist 2: Yay, making more attacks.

Beastmaster 3: Animal Companion as 6th-9th level druid for disposable minion/flanker

Cleric 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0): Devotion feats/Domains for the cherrypicking. And Knowledge Devotion gets to hit and damage.

Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2: Improved Trip, Pounce, and an extra attack? Yay!

edit: Huh, lost part of the post, sorry.

Just putting that forth as examples of other things that one could do with 3 levels for a presumably melee build.

[Curmudgeon]

Couldn't they just have errata'ed Rogue to additionally have the Swashbuckler HD and class features at that point?
If you mean instead of what the Rogue gets, why would you want that?

Swashbucklers find traps by stepping on them and taking the damage.
You can't get sneak attack in the surprise round if you're surprised. With neither Spot nor Listen, Swashbucklers usually take it on the chin in the surprise round rather than dish it out.
With neither Hide nor Move Silently on their skill list, Swashbuckers suck at stealth. You can't use the "visually undetectable" benefit of being hidden to qualify for sneak attack if you fail to Hide.
Swashbucklers don't get evasion, uncanny dodge, or improved uncanny dodge. Of course, with bad Reflex saves evasion isn't good for much anyway.
Basically, Swashbucklers with Daring Outlaw only get sneak attack by flanking. Yet they don't have the option for Penetrating Strike to deal (reduced) sneak attack damage to normally sneak-immune enemies when they flank those foes; that's only available with yet another Rogue class feature.
The "special features" higher-level Swashbucklers get (without choice) are poorer than the Rogue special ability options: Acrobatic Skill Mastery is weaker than general Skill Mastery; Weakening Critical and Wounding Critical are inferior to Crippling Strike; and Slippery Mind is only useful against one school of spells, so it's not an ability I'd choose except for specific Epic builds.
Having full sneak attack dice looks like a big plus for the Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw, but in practice those Swashbucklers deal out much less sneak attack damage than Rogues.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you mean instead of what the Rogue gets, why would you want that?

Swashbucklers find traps by stepping on them and taking the damage.
You can't get sneak attack in the surprise round if you're surprised. With neither Spot nor Listen, Swashbucklers usually take it on the chin in the surprise round rather than dish it out.
With neither Hide nor Move Silently on their skill list, Swashbuckers suck at stealth. You can't use the "visually undetectable" benefit of being hidden to qualify for sneak attack if you fail to Hide.
Swashbucklers don't get evasion, uncanny dodge, or improved uncanny dodge. Of course, with bad Reflex saves evasion isn't good for much anyway.
Basically, Swashbucklers with Daring Outlaw only get sneak attack by flanking. Yet they don't have the option for Penetrating Strike to deal (reduced) sneak attack damage to normally sneak-immune enemies when they flank those foes; that's only available with yet another Rogue class feature.
The "special features" higher-level Swashbucklers get (without choice) are poorer than the Rogue special ability options: Acrobatic Skill Mastery is weaker than general Skill Mastery; Weakening Critical and Wounding Critical are inferior to Crippling Strike; and Slippery Mind is only useful against one school of spells, so it's not an ability I'd choose except for specific Epic builds.
Having full sneak attack dice looks like a big plus for the Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw, but in practice those Swashbucklers deal out much less sneak attack damage than Rogues.Yet another case where HD and BaB is overvalued I would say.

[Keld Denar]

If you mean instead of what the Rogue gets, why would you want that?

Wait, 2/3 of your list is negated simply by building Rogue4/Swashbuckler16, which is generally the common build. You DO know how Daring Outlaw works, right? You get Evasion, Penetrating Strike, Trapfinding, and Uncanny Dodge all in the first 4 Rogue levels, which you generally take. You don't get Imp Uncanny Dodge, which isn't THAT great anyway (fortification is not hard to get if that is a HUGE concern for you), and you don't get special rogue abilities, which I'll address below. Everything else? False.

Able Learner is generally highly recommended on a human based Daring Outlaw. While you can't keep 100% of the delicious roguy skills maxed, you can still get respectable numbers with a highish Int. Given that you also get +damage from high Int, you have whats called synergy. Maybe you can't keep all of your social skills maxed and dabble in Knowledges, but you can certainly keep Hide, Move Silent, Tumble, Search, and Disable Device maxed if you have a 14 Int (+human bonus skill point) and UMD with a 16 Int. If those things are REALLY important to you, you can keep them. Given that Human is literally one of the best races ever printed, that makes Able Learner all the more likely.

You have a point about the Rogue special features. Crippling Strike (especially with Savvy Rogue) is awesome, and Skill Mastery is very nice, but the point of Daring Outlaw is generally raw damage, and neither of those contribute.

You yourself often preach the virtues of "if you don't hit, you deal 0 SA damage". The 4 extra points of BAB gives you a +4 to hit. Assuming equal stats, equal gear, equal opportunities, and equal fellow party members, a Daring Outlaw is +1 to +3 points of total attack bonus ahead of an equal level straight Rogue.

Seriously, it sounds like you are comparing Swashbuckler20 to Rogue20, which isn't even a comparison. Swash20 is stupid dumb. Comparing Rogue20 to Rogue4/Swash16, however, there are a LOT of similarities, with each build having subtle strengths (Daring Outlaw's higher to hit, higher HP, higher AC vs Rogue's more skill points and swanky special abilities). Saying Rogue20 is a dramatically higher damage dealer than a decent Daring Outlaw build is seriously lacking in truthiness.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait, 2/3 of your list is negated simply by building Rogue4/Swashbuckler16, which is generally the common build.
I was thinking more of straight Swashbuckler with Martial Study and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance): full sneak attack dice with no Rogue levels. This is the more common choice for those who use races other than Human or those with Rogue as their favored class, since Rogue levels aren't actually required for Daring Outlaw. Are there any races with FC: Swashbuckler?

[Worira]

Assassin's Stance gives you 2 sneak attack dice, not full progression, and a rogue can take it anyway. And human characters aren't exactly few and far between.

[Keld Denar]

Honestly, I don't think I've ever even heard of Swash20 builds using Assassin Stance discussed. I guess it would work, but the benefits of adding 3-4 Rogue levels at the cost of 1 BAB and 6-8 HP is staggering. Nearly all Daring Outlaw builds I've ever suggested, or seen suggested are:

Rogue3/Swash17
Rogue4/Swash16
Rogue3/Swash15/Swordsage2
Rogue4/Swash14/Swordsage2

Obviously not exactly in that exact order. All of those builds would include Lightbringer/Penetrating Strike (which you get from Rogue 3 in place of Trap Sense +1), Evasion, and Trapfinding, along with skill rank maximums in all rogue skills. The ones with Rogue4 also pick up Uncanny Dodge, which is moderately useful and still don't lose any more BAB. The Swordsage levels pick up a number of methods of qualifying for SA, be it Island of Blades stance (flank adjacent), flanking dummies like Distracting Ember, or temporary Greater Invis from Cloak of Deception. You can also pick up swift action movement (to get to flanking) from Sudden Leap or extra attacks or pounce from Dancing Mongoose or Pouncing Charge. The lost BAB from Swordsage is mostly made up for with the Discipline Focus feat, which pretty much covers everything but the delay in your 3rd and 4th iteratives by a level.

I will admit that those Daring Outlaw builds do underperform in skill points, and the loss of the neato Rogue special abilities is also regretable, but for sheer damage output, the extra attack bonus from Swash-based attack builds make hitting with iteratives (or TWFing, if you go that route) much more likely. More hits = more SA damage. This goes triple in combats where you (or more likely your party) don't have time to play cloak and dagger in combat to rehide (especially prior to getting HiPS) because while you are trying to rehide, they are still in pitch combat for their lives and most of the time you are best off relying on flanking or other methods to qualify for SA damage.

EDIT: I don't think there are any races with FC: Swashbuckler. That said, the FC rules are dumb, don't do what they are supposed to do, and the builds they typically penalize are melee based which tend to be X/Y/Z/PrCA/PrCB/PrCC as opposed to casters which tend to be X/CasterPrC1/CasterPrC2/CasterPrC3. Humans, Halfelves, and Changlings, IIRC, all have FC: Any, which includes Swashbuckler levels, and any race with FC: Rogue like Strongheart Halfling or Whisper Gnome generally works out ok in most non-Swordsage Daring Outlaw builds.

[Person_Man]

I'm personally of the opinion that Swashbuckler is rarely worth it, and that Savvy Rogue builds are oversold. Your damage output is comparable to that of a Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Totemist, or Psychic Warrior 20, but with few of the many other benefits of having scaled maneuvers/soulmelds/psionics.

Honestly, you could just give the Rogue full BAB, Weapon Finesse at first level, and Swashbuckler abilities as Rogue Talent options (see Pathfinder) and it's still be mired in Tier 4ish land. (Although it would certain have high damage output, comparable to a Dungeoncrasher Fighter).

[Telok]

I once came up with an 8 level concept build

1, swash martial study: shadow blade technique
2, swash
3, swash martial stance: island of blades
4, warmage
5, warmage
6, dusk shadow blade
7, dusk
8, dusk

The tricks being that the duskblade channelling is for any touch spell and warmage edge is for any spell doing HP damage. So that any hit when you are channelling give you the weapon damage, spell damage, dex mod to damage, and int mod to damage twice.

[Flickerdart]

Why two Warmage levels? Duskblade 4 gives you an extra point of Fortitude and Armored Caster (Medium) over Warmage 2 and puts you closer to 2nd level spells (and Duskblade 13, when you can do this on more than one attack per round), at the cost of two cantrip slots.

[Seerow]

Why two Warmage levels? Duskblade 4 gives you an extra point of Fortitude and Armored Caster (Medium) over Warmage 2 and puts you closer to 2nd level spells (and Duskblade 13, when you can do this on more than one attack per round), at the cost of two cantrip slots.

I think he was dipping for warmage's edge, to get int to damage on damage dealing spells.


So when he channels with duskblade, he has his normal weapon damage + dex + int, and then the spell damage + int. Letting him apply int to damage twice, and dex once. Not too bad of a deal really.

[JaronK]

I basically never do the three level Swashbuckler dip into a build, regardless of Int score. I mean, consider putting in Swordsage 2/Warblade 1 in there instead... it's virtually guaranteed to be far better.

JaronK

[Knaight]

I was thinking more of straight Swashbuckler with Martial Study and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance): full sneak attack dice with no Rogue levels. This is the more common choice for those who use races other than Human or those with Rogue as their favored class, since Rogue levels aren't actually required for Daring Outlaw. Are there any races with FC: Swashbuckler?
Human and Half Elf, provided they have a lot of Swashbuckler levels.

[Flickerdart]

I think he was dipping for warmage's edge, to get int to damage on damage dealing spells.
Yeah - but Warmage Edge is 1st level, not 2nd.

[hex0]

Swashbuckler 3 is decent for gestalt though to start your build

Swashbuckler 3/Factotum 3
Duskblade 3/Swashbuckler 3
Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 3

For example.

[GunbladeKnight]

I'm personally partial to Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 14/Assassin 3

+18 BAB, Int to damage, 11d6 SA, Evasion, Weakening Critical (not as good as rogue, but still nice), Lucky (which is basically a luck feat), Grace +2, Dodge +2, Trapfinding, Trap Sense +1, Death Attack, Poison Use, Spells (based on Int as well), Uncanny Dodge.

Combine with defending armor spikes to up your AC if you can, and maybe deadly precision weapons for more SA if you want. Or Defending and Parrying, if you want to up your AC even more. Wounding for if you want the Con damage as well.

I usually take Deadly Defense for an additional 1d6, as well as Combat Expertise, possibly two weapon defense.

[alzagor]

Bumped Build over to its own thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11948955

[Snowbluff]

Nope.

In other news, if you can, Eternal Blade can do the same thing by burning up their Eternal Training uses. The prereqs are tough if you aren't an adept (or a full martial, for that matter), but it's a pretty sweet class, and works well with warblade levels.:smallsigh: