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Dr.Orpheus
2011-09-28, 08:06 PM
I am planing on brewing a new class but I first would like to know what is the most average class. Fighter seems to me the most genaric but genaric is not the same as average.

Kenneth
2011-09-28, 08:27 PM
the depends on what your definition of 'average' is.

you mean the most middle-of-the-road esque class? I would wager the bard.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-09-28, 08:42 PM
I mean average in terms of power, so if I trade class abilitys properly I will come out with a class of equal power.

sorry I didn't make that clear enough

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-28, 08:45 PM
Tier 3 classes. Look it up.

Seerow
2011-09-28, 08:53 PM
I mean average in terms of power, so if I trade class abilitys properly I will come out with a class of equal power.

sorry I didn't make that clear enough

That's typically a really bad way to balance classes by the way, because some powers/abilities are worth far more than others.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-09-28, 08:55 PM
You just saved me a lot of time I almost re invented tiers, but what about tiers for races.

Thank you

Glimbur
2011-09-28, 09:18 PM
You just saved me a lot of time I almost re invented tiers, but what about tiers for races.

Thank you

Strong races include human (feat? yes please), dwarf(lots of bonuses, including plusses on saves v spells), warforged(piles of immunities), and other races which give a bonus feat (most human subraces, Strongheart Halfling). Beyond that, it gets more niche. Small size is generally nice for the +1 to hit and AC unless you're looking to get really big for reach or stacking weapon size.

Weak races include half-elf (lots of bonuses... but elves are better at what half-elves do for the most part) and bugbear (they look impressive until you notice the +1 LA and 3 RHD). In general, LA is not worth it and RHD are pretty pants as well.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-09-28, 09:59 PM
That's typically a really bad way to balance classes by the way, because some powers/abilities are worth far more than others.

I don't intend to use the rules given in the DMG for class ability trading and altering I will be much more careful

and as for the races I will think about this and sit on my class ideas for now

DracoDei
2011-09-29, 01:04 PM
FWIW, and since this is the homebrew forums, I recommend replacing all LAs with an equal number of required levels in commoner... gives you hit-dice so you can count as a creature of your ECLs hit-dice when it comes to spells, and to add your constitution bonus to... at +2 or higher it also gives a bit of BAB and/or saves. It isn't perfect, but it is quick and easy.

channingman
2011-09-29, 03:19 PM
Or just allow LA buyback

jiriku
2011-09-29, 07:00 PM
I generally cut LA in half for any of the more exotic races, as WoTC tended to grossly overstate LA for monster races.

Among PHB races
Strong: human, dwarf
Average: gnome, halfling, elf
Weak half-elf, half-orc

Among Races of X books, I have a lot less familiarity, but strongheart halflings, and whisper gnomes are really solid (whisper gnome in particular is stretching the bounds of what you can call +0 LA while keeping a straight face), while goliaths, kobolds (with web enhancement materials), illumians, dragonborn, spellscales, and raptorans all offer useful abilities that can't easily be had elsewhere.

ericgrau
2011-09-29, 10:45 PM
The above also varies depending on what books you have. Limited to core the human feat becomes less useful, while the half-orc strength bonus becomes better than melee's other limited options. Gnomes make good casters because, besides the con, the size bonuses to hit with rays and AC are nice. Your net carrying capacity (the main issue on how far a caster dumps strength) increases because even though your poundage is lower your gear weighs half as much. Dwarf and half-elf, however, are solid good/bad races respectively regardless IMO. You'd need a campaign based solely around political intrigue and espionage to change that.

Likewise I don't like blanket solutions to LA as this also varies on material available. I've tested a few cases and it's actually fairly well balanced compared to core martial builds, or at most 0.5 LA over. A +2 stat bump or similar fixes 0.5 LA. I think any LA reduction should be done on a group-by-group basis depending on the group's optimization level.

I think when making something new you should compare it to something existing. It would be helpful to know what style of class & race you want to make first.

Dr.Orpheus
2011-09-29, 10:52 PM
i think i have all the info i need thanks everyone

jiriku
2011-09-30, 01:53 AM
Likewise I don't like blanket solutions to LA as this also varies on material available. I've tested a few cases and it's actually fairly well balanced compared to core martial builds shiny armor-clad paperweights.

Fixed it for you! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2011-09-30, 10:28 AM
LA races are normally only for shiny armor clad paperweights (hey, hey, out of my head!) non-casters anyway.

Though if anyone could pull off an LA caster, nixie might have a chance. Take it farther with a template or two and tell others to fear the might if the ridiculous save DC on your hold person (or suggestion, or whatever low level spell).

jiriku
2011-09-30, 12:29 PM
Indeed! A succubus beguiler can also pull off considerable silliness using only SLA's and low-level enchantments.