Why spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion X?

[NineThePuma]

Just curious why Spellsword is apparently the first level of Abjurant champion. I haven't looked at it in a while, so I could be completely forgetting something.

[Urpriest]

Lower BAB requirement.

[Incanur]

It's relatively easy to qualify for and few people take it beyond the first level because you start losing caster levels.

[Silva Stormrage]

As said above it has a lower BAB requirement and thus makes it easier to get into abjurant champion. Also it gives the ability to cast in light armor which is always nice anyway.

[MeeposFire]

Also the 10% ASF reduction can be potentially useful depending on class, armor, and resource choices.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Why not?!

Looking at the prerequisites, we have the following:

Spellsword
BAB +4
Knowledge: Arcana 6 ranks
Proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and all armor
Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells

Abjurant Champion
BAB +5
Combat Casting
Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell
Proficiency with at least one martial weapon

As you can see, Spellsword is far easier to qualify for, and after just one level of it you've met the prerequisites for Abjurant Champion without losing a level of spellcasting. There's not much reason to take any more Spellsword levels after the first, since you could take something else without losing out on spellcasting.

[Starbuck_II]

Just curious why Spellsword is apparently the first level of Abjurant champion. I haven't looked at it in a while, so I could be completely forgetting something.

Because Spellsword gives really good benefits at 1st but less at higher levels.
It would be better if it gave 5% per Spellsword level instead of 10 at 1st, 3rd, etc. The original way encourages dipping, the new way would encourage more levels.

[Dusk Eclipse]

To be honest I haven't seen anyone dipping Spellsword for the ASF reduction, it is mostly for the easy +BAB

[MeeposFire]

Because Spellsword gives really good benefits at 1st but less at higher levels.
It would be better if it gave 5% per Spellsword level instead of 10 at 1st, 3rd, etc. The original way encourages dipping, the new way would encourage more levels.

If youactually wanted to stop dipping you would need to make the caster level increase at level 2 instead of one. Of course then almost nobody would take it...

[Jack_Simth]

Why not?!

Looking at the prerequisites, we have the following:

Spellsword
BAB +4
Knowledge: Arcana 6 ranks
Proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and all armor
Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells

Abjurant Champion
BAB +5
Combat Casting
Able to cast 1st level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell
Proficiency with at least one martial weapon

As you can see, Spellsword is far easier to qualify for, and after just one level of it you've met the prerequisites for Abjurant Champion without losing a level of spellcasting. There's not much reason to take any more Spellsword levels after the first, since you could take something else without losing out on spellcasting.

Well, which is easier to qualify for depends on whether or not you're planning on taking a dip into a martial base class. If you plan on a dip into Fighter or some such, then yes, Spellsword is great.

However, a Wizard-10/Abjurant Champion-5 loses no caster levels at all, and can fit all requirements (take Martial Weapon Proficiency, the feat, or take a base race that gets a martial weapon proficiency or two). It's much harder to get a Wizard-8/Spellsword-1/Abjurant Champion-5 (doable, though).

[Coidzor]

Well, which is easier to qualify for depends on whether or not you're planning on taking a dip into a martial base class. If you plan on a dip into Fighter or some such, then yes, Spellsword is great.

However, a Wizard-10/Abjurant Champion-5 loses no caster levels at all, and can fit all requirements (take Martial Weapon Proficiency, the feat, or take a base race that gets a martial weapon proficiency or two). It's much harder to get a Wizard-8/Spellsword-1/Abjurant Champion-5 (doable, though).

If you're fine being a straight wizard for even longer than required, yes. Definitely downplays the value of wraithstrike full attacks to lose that iterative though.


If youactually wanted to stop dipping you would need to make the caster level increase at level 2 instead of one. Of course then almost nobody would take it...

There'd be no reason to take any levels of the class at all, as the main class feature it gives is a much, much, much worse version of the Duskblade's 3rd level ability that's limited by times per day.

And ASF reduction is made moot by monetary expenditures and/or magic.

[Hunter Killer]

As stated before, because the requirements are easy and you're likely picking them up as part of a gish build anyway.

The extra benefits are good (-10% ASF, Good Fort and Will saves) but the most important thing is Full Base Attack + Full Casting (Not many classes give you that except Abjurant Champion).

[deuxhero]

To be honest I haven't seen anyone dipping Spellsword for the ASF reduction, it is mostly for the easy +BAB

ASF reduction is nice gravy (Breastplate over Chain Shirt).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Point; but hey a (greater) luminous armour is much better than any armour you can buy (if you want some armour abilities there is always the mithril buckler have no ACF)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The 10% ASF reduction negates:

+1 Twilight Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (medium, +6 armor, +3 max dex; 4,600 gp)
+1 Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (light, +6 armor, +5 max dex; 5,550 gp)
+1 Twilight Mithral Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit (medium, +9 armor, +3 max dex; 14,750 gp)

Do note that a +1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit has a 0% ASF all by itself (light, +6 armor, +5 max dex, 8,550 gp)
Greater Mage Armor grants a +6 armor bonus, and you can use a Lesser Rod of Extend with it.
Luminous Armor grants a +5 armor bonus, and opponents who use vision take a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls against you; Greater Luminous Armor grants a +8 armor bonus with the same benefit. Both can be completely negated by a Heightened (Deeper) Darkness, but that can be countered by a Heightened Continual Flame.

Twilight is in BoED and in PH2 under Duskblade, Thistledown Suit is in RotW and makes the ACP worse by 1.

[deuxhero]

Or just Twilight Mithral Breastplate. Spellsword kills the 5% remaining ACF.

[Coidzor]

Point; but hey a (greater) luminous armour is much better than any armour you can buy (if you want some armour abilities there is always the mithril buckler have no ACF)

Don't forget Dastana! Mithril Ones! :smallbiggrin: Possibly Fey and/or Githcraft.

[deuxhero]

Don't forget that spells can't give fortification or other special abilities (also: Spellsword drops the need for Twilight on a chain shirt).

[Keld Denar]

Um, like, 5 different spells give Fortification. Casting all 4 Heart of X spells gives full 100% fortification. Elemental Body along gives full fortification. Veil of Undeath gives full fortification.

So...yea...its not hard to get with spells.

That said, a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt of Freedom is extremely useful, and costs 37000g, 3000g less than a Ring of Freedom of Movement, and doesn't take a precious ring slot you need for a Ring of Enduring Arcana + Ring of Arcane Might.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the Gemstone of Fortification in the Draconomicon. It costs no more than adding Heavy Fortification to an already +1 armor, though you need a Limited Wish to embed one into a nondragon.

[deuxhero]

That's what UMD is for :)