[4E DnD] Miniboss Monster (My players stay out!)

[Nu]

My players will soon be engaged in an underground adventure where they will be fighting your generic aberrant dungeon-dwellings in a moist environment. I thought a suitable mini-boss (encountered as the 2nd or 3rd encounter in the dungeon) for them could be a hydra, though I found the monster vault versions to be too high level and a bit on the weak side.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/8702/spittinghydra.png

My campaign features a party of six level 6 (well, they will be level 6 when they face this) players with varying degrees of (but generally average-to-high end) optimization. The hydra should be encountered in a fairly open cavern, with at least some stone pillars that could be used for cover, and perhaps a shallow pool of water. The hydra will shoot acid at the players until they engage it in melee, and since Reflexive Spit will provoke OAs, it won't use that if there are two or more characters engaged in melee with it.

I guess I'm looking for any general feedback. I've been trying to make an effective solo for a while with varying degrees of success. This seems like it would be challenging, but eyeball balancing only goes so far, so I'll ask for community feedback this time.

[Garryl]

That thing looks nasty. The heads thing should say at the end of the creature's next turn, not every turn (unless you want it to have 2 extra heads per round).

Bite's acid damage being on an effect line rather than part of the hit line implies that the acid damage is dealt regardless of a hit or miss. Is this intended?

A party that has read the monster sheet might have some party members adjacent to the hydra and then have the rest far away spamming ranged attacks to force the hydra to provoke opportunity attacks from its triggered spit.

What happens to a headless hydra? It can happen if your players bring it from 288 to 95 in a single round.

[Nu]

That thing looks nasty. The heads thing should say at the end of the creature's next turn, not every turn (unless you want it to have 2 extra heads per round).

Bite's acid damage being on an effect line rather than part of the hit line implies that the acid damage is dealt regardless of a hit or miss. Is this intended?

A party that has read the monster sheet might have some party members adjacent to the hydra and then have the rest far away spamming ranged attacks to force the hydra to provoke opportunity attacks from its triggered spit.

What happens to a headless hydra? It can happen if your players bring it from 288 to 95 in a single round.

1. Well, it was intended that once it regrew heads they would no longer be "destroyed," so it could have a maximum of 6 heads. But yes, I could clarify that bit of wording.

2. It is intentional for the acid damage to be dealt on a hit or a miss. A mere 5 shouldn't be that significant unless the target has already taken 2 acid spits.

3. True, though I would probably play the hydra as to not actually use its reflexive spit if it had multiple enemies engaged in melee combat with it. That was primarily intended as a deterrent to attempting to "kite" the hydra with ranged attacks only.

4. Well, even though it's not actually written into the creature's stat block, if the party managed to do that I might have it run around like a headless chicken. I can't see it happening, but I suppose it is theoretically possible.

[Mando Knight]

2. It is intentional for the acid damage to be dealt on a hit or a miss. A mere 5 shouldn't be that significant unless the target has already taken 2 acid spits.

I don't think even Epic Solos often have basic attacks that deal damage on a miss. Given Hydra Fury and Snapping Jaws, it can utterly wreck the Defender if the Strikers don't handle it quickly enough. In case you were thinking otherwise, this is bad.

Generally, a Solo should average a maximum of one attack per opponent per round. Unless it's giving up Reflexive Spit, it starts out with a +3 attack advantage, and if half the party is in melee and a head or two is lopped off, that number increases. Again, this is bad monster design.

Also, as Artillery, its melee attack should probably do less damage than its ranged attack.

[Nu]

I don't think even Epic Solos often have basic attacks that deal damage on a miss. Given Hydra Fury and Snapping Jaws, it can utterly wreck the Defender if the Strikers don't handle it quickly enough. In case you were thinking otherwise, this is bad.

Actually, such solos start as early as the level 3 brute, Young White Dragon (Monster Vault), whose bite attack deals 1d10 cold damage on a miss. Granted, they don't usually have a way to use them multiple times per round, so I could see dropping that part.


Generally, a Solo should average a maximum of one attack per opponent per round. Unless it's giving up Reflexive Spit, it starts out with a +3 attack advantage, and if half the party is in melee and a head or two is lopped off, that number increases. Again, this is bad monster design.

All I can offer in defense is that this was based on the monster vault hydra, that begins with four heads and regenerates its heads at the start of its turn, so it will typically have more attacks with Hydras Fury (but lacks an equivalent to Reflexive Spit). I decreased that number because it was two levels lower. Snapping Jaws is the exact same power on the monster vault hydra.


Also, as Artillery, its melee attack should probably do less damage than its ranged attack.

I think the ranged attacks will usually end up doing more damage overall, as they are certainly more deadly with Acid Spit most of the time when it hits. With that said, I could swap the damage dice of Bite and Acid Spit, and even add the Effect: damage to a Miss: line on Acid Spit instead.

I am curious though, have you browsed the solo monsters from the monster vault? I drew upon such creatures for inspiration for mine.

[DracoDei]

No rules for cauturizing the stumps before they can grow back? Perhaps a clause, "If an attack that deals fire or acid damage that would over overcome resistances hits after a head is cut off, but before it can grow back into two heads, then the character may elect to forgo all damage dealt by that attack to prevent the heads from growing back."... or maybe make it require a specific attack mode (granted to the attacker) that has to hit a higher AC (and then deal fire or acid damage successfully, which is then negated as per the above to prevent the regrowth).

(Yes, I still don't think much of 4E, but that isn't going to stop me ENTIRELY from trying to be helpful.)

[Nu]

No rules for cauturizing the stumps before they can grow back? Perhaps a clause, "If an attack that deals fire or acid damage that would over overcome resistances hits after a head is cut off, but before it can grow back into two heads, then the character may elect to forgo all damage dealt by that attack to prevent the heads from growing back."... or maybe make it require a specific attack mode (granted to the attacker) that has to hit a higher AC (and then deal fire or acid damage successfully, which is then negated as per the above to prevent the regrowth).

(Yes, I still don't think much of 4E, but that isn't going to stop me ENTIRELY from trying to be helpful.)

Thank you for the feedback. I actually considered such a thing, as the original Monster Vault hydras do have such a clause (if they take fire or acid damage before their turn, the heads don't regenerate). The party that will be fighting it only has a single power that deals consistent fire damage, however, and I'm not sure I want to encourage relying on a particular damage type. With that said, I could consider it, but I'd probably bump up the count of heads to four to prevent all the heads from being destroyed and unable to regenerate.

To be honest, though, I really don't like the idea, and I made sure my hydra had fewer heads and a slower rate of regeneration in order to compensate for the fact that the regeneration couldn't be blocked by a particular damage type.

I will consider it, however, particularly after I view the party's power list when it reaches level 6.

[Surrealistik]

Change Reflexive spit to 1/turn. As is, punishes multiattackers way too hard.

Snapping Jaws should probably be reduced to 1 bite attack.

Many-Headed should give it ability to make saving throws against daze/stun/dominate effects at the start of its turn to ignore the daze/stun/dominate condition until the start of its next turn instead of its current function.

Hydra Fury should probably not allow the creature to attack any one target more than 3 times.

This is also more of a brute than artillery.

[Mando Knight]

I am curious though, have you browsed the solo monsters from the monster vault? I drew upon such creatures for inspiration for mine.

It's been a long while since I had access to the Vault. I agree with Surrealistik, though. This thing is way more of a Brute than an Artillery monster due to Snapping Jaws, the ability to always use Snapping Jaws, and the strength of its Bite attack. Given its stats, it also shouldn't have a Fortitude that low compared to its Will and Reflex.

[Nu]

Well, based on feedback so far, this is what I've come up with:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/SpittingHydra.png

I'm trying to keep it close to the original hydra while still making it into an "artillery" class monster that isn't completely helpless when creatures enter melee. Also, snapping jaws gives it a chance to use its bite attack, because now acid spit pretty much will dominate the attacks with hydra fury. However, the bite has been toned down so much that its OAs and Snapping Jaws hopefully do not come across as overpowered (but still dangerous).

My inclination is that it is necessary to give the monster this many attacks, as a solo is most likely going to be overwhelmed with penalties and interrupts by a focused and moderately-optimized party. Giving it more attacks, especially outside its turn, helps to balance this out. My earlier attempts at solos tended to underestimate just how many effects a party can place on a solo when they focus and use their Action points and Daily powers, even at the mid-heroic tier.

I changed Reflexive Spit to 1/turn, though I was under the impression that it already functioned as such because I thought that monsters obeyed the "one free action attack per turn" rule (the rules compendium seems to support this, it says "creatures" and not "players"). Snapping Jaws should get around this either as "two attacks as one free action," or "specific beats general." Anyway, it's worded exactly the same as a power from a monster in the MV, so it should be fine.

I'm torn on allowing fire to stop the regeneration. I've also considered saying that taking fire damage after a head is destroyed will cause it to only regenerate 1 head as opposed to 2, and/or requiring a certain fire damage threshold. Either way, if I did that I'd probably start it with four heads, like the other hydras.

I also prefer Many-Headed the way it is, as a bit of a stronger variant of the version on the Monster Vault Hydra. If anything, I'd tone it down to be equal to that (the Monster Vault hydra can take free actions while stunned or dominated). As is, it will still be affected by daze, stun, or domination, but its "other heads" will be able to pick up the slack.

[Surrealistik]

I changed Reflexive Spit to 1/turn, though I was under the impression that it already functioned as such because I thought that monsters obeyed the "one free action attack per turn" rule (the rules compendium seems to support this, it says "creatures" and not "players"). Snapping Jaws should get around this either as "two attacks as one free action," or "specific beats general." Anyway, it's worded exactly the same as a power from a monster in the MV, so it should be fine.

Actually that's true, keep forgetting about that rule, still it's nice to have reminder text.

Also, I wouldn't be too confident about existing design; remember Needlefang Drake swarms?

So far, it looks good though, but I'd be pretty concerned about non-condition disablers like Visions of Ruin.

[Mando Knight]

It should be 1/round. 1/turn means once for the Wizard's turn, one for the Ranger's turn, and again for the Bard's turn...

[Surrealistik]

It should be 1/round. 1/turn means once for the Wizard's turn, one for the Ranger's turn, and again for the Bard's turn...

That's intended I believe, otherwise it would be an immediate action, unless he just wants it to be specifically compatible with Many-Headed.

[Mando Knight]

That's intended I believe, otherwise it would be an immediate action, unless he just wants it to be specifically compatible with Many-Headed.

I suppose. Though I'm still pretty sure Snapping Jaws should be changed. I could see it being used in its present form on a Soldier or Brute, not so much on an Artillery monster, even a Solo (even with the downgraded Bite). I'd make it one chomp or an immediate action.

[Nu]

I suppose. Though I'm still pretty sure Snapping Jaws should be changed. I could see it being used in its present form on a Soldier or Brute, not so much on an Artillery monster, even a Solo (even with the downgraded Bite). I'd make it one chomp or an immediate action.

Well, the way I figure it, is that at least one of the bites has a decent chance of missing, and only about half the party will be within range--the wizard isn't gonna get chomped if it's sitting back and slinging spells at the beast while the paladin, warlord, and ranger are beating it down.

The bite no longer has a miss effect, and the bite deals about ~14 average damage on a hit, which is slightly less than the "moderate" damage value for its level, according to adventure tools (which seems to have somewhat low damage standards in my experience). I see Snapping Jaws as its "consistent" form of damage output, that does not change regardless of how many heads the hydra has.

Changing it to one bite... I dunno. I'm scared it'd become almost negligible in terms of threat output in melee.

[Mando Knight]

I see Snapping Jaws as its "consistent" form of damage output, that does not change regardless of how many heads the hydra has.
It's an Artillery monster. Its melee capability isn't supposed to be its consistent damage dealer, it's supposed to be there to give it a means of threatening its opponents while it tries to scuttle off to a position where it can use its ranged attacks.

[Nu]

Well, in response to some concerns that it wasn't "artillery" enough for an artillery monster (and I had no desire to make it more like the blue dragon, which feels more like a skirmisher in its Monster Vault incarnation to me), I have modified the hydra into a more brutish version.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/AcidmawHydra.png

[Nu]

I think I've got the numbers and powers about how I like them. It's not too complex, but it should pose a significant threat to a level 6 party.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/AcidmawHydraLatest.png

Any feedback on its latest incarnation would be greatly appreciated. The idea is that it's so ravenous that it is driven to attack distant enemies unless it is sufficiently distracted by melee combatants. Of course, it periodically lashes out against these attackers, but only Acidic Fury deals auto-damage (Snapping Jaws deals no damage on a miss), and only once to each creature targeted.

[Nu]

I decided to make two different monsters and put them both up for hypothetical feedback.

The acidmaw hydra is a brute. Its hunger is so great that if there is not sufficient prey nearby, any attack against it spurs it to hunt down viable targets. Its heads are always alert and snapping at anything nearby that leaves itself vulnerable; and even if one head is disabled, the others can pick up the slack.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/AcidmawHydraLatest-2.png

The poison-spit hydra is an artillery that possesses a potent poisonous spit. Though most of the time the effects of its poison quickly wear off after briefly disabling the motor system, it is known to be able to secret a very powerful poison that will leave a creature unable to stand for a time. It secretes this poison the most often when it is wounded.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Magil/PoisonSpitHydra.png