New to 3.5; would like to resist casters

[old timer newb]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

I recently reconnected with my old DnD group. Other than our DM, none of us have played in approx. 20 years. When we did play, it was a mix of AD&D 1st and 2nd ed.

Our DM now plays 3.5, so we’re going to start a game in that system. I went online to learn the system and get a feel for it. I was hoping some posters here could double check certain aspects of the character I plan to use to make sure I have things right. We use only the SRD and the player’s book, but I can take selected stuff off the internet if I clear it with my DM as long as I don’t “go crazy.”

Background: 3 PCs in the party, based loosely on some old characters we used to have. We’re all going to be lvl 12. There will be a human ranger/barbarian mix, a gnome mystic theurge with illusionist leanings, and me, a duergar psionic monk.

What little we know of the campaign is that the gnome has looked up his old buddies to help him on a mission into a country controlled by a cabal of wizards and clerics. The cabal was started by the wizards for some nefarious purpose, and they secured the help of the clerics by helping them to drive all of the other religions out of the country. If you’re a wizard or cleric not of the cabal, they will try to kill you. The gnome is not the right kind of cleric or part of the cabal, so we’re going to be sneaking in.

I want my character to be effective against casters: to have high touch AC, high saves, and powers that will help counter (what I remember and assume to still be) the most common wizard tactics.
Here’s what I have:
Duergar psychic warrior 2/Monk 3/Psionic Fist 7

DM Freebies: My character is actually a hermit mountain dwarf with light sensitivity, since there are no duergar in his setting. This means I don’t have to explain what I’m doing on the surface, why I’m not evil, etc.

I get 90k(!) gold to spend

Where there is a difference between the monster duergar listing and the psionic race listing, I can take whatever is better.

I can enchant my body as a weapon but only up to 20k in value

I can put invisibility is on my power list (because I can already cast it 1/day)

It’s the “point buy” system for stats; the columns show original distribution and then modification
S-12
I-12
W-16 23 (gear and lvls)
D-16 18 (gear)
C-14 16 (race)
Ch-8 4 (race)

Gear:
Cloak of resistance +5 (25k); Periapt of Wisdom +4 (12k), Gloves of Dex +2,(4k) boots of haste (13k) Bracers of armour +3 (9k)
+1, collision and parrying for my body enchantments (18k total)
I have 6k left, what should I spend it on?

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, weapon finesse, Psionic Meditation, scribe Tattoo, speed of thought, wild talent, unavoidable strike, up the walls, cloak dance.

Any suggestions for different feats?

Powers:
Expansion, Inertial Armour, Lion’s Charge, Hustle, (for combat)
Dimension slide, Freedom of Movement (both to avoid trapping spells) Steadfast perception (to counter illusions and invisibility)
Invisbility (useful)
I have one power left,--suggestions?

Saves:
By my calculations, my saves vs spells should be:
Will: +8 (lvls) +4 (duergar) +6 (wis) +5 (cloak) +1 (parrying) = 24 (also, still mind = +2 against enchantment spells, and I also have immunity to paralysis, phantasms and poison)
Reflex +8 (lvls) +4 (duergar) +4 (dex) +5 (cloak) +1 (parrying)=22 (also, evasion)
Fort +8 (lvls) +4 (duergar) +3 (con) +5 (cloak) +1 (parrying)= 21

AC:
Touch AC should be 10 (base) +6 (wis) +4(dex) +3 (bracers) +1 (Parrying) =24 (28, if I have Inertial armour up, which I intend to have up most of the time.)

Reg AC should be the same? The stacking rules seem to be vague, like armour bonuses don’t apply unless they are from force effects, like mage armour, so does that count the bracers in or out?

Anyway, I would appreciate if people could tell me if I made any errors, and suggest ideas for filling out my gear and powers. Thanks in advance

[Medic!]

Depending on exactly what you want to do with your PC as a wizardbane, I'd suggest looking into taking the grappling tree vs stunning fist. If you decide stunning fist is the way to go, I'd invest more into raising the DC on your fort save as much as possible. You've already done what you can with your wisdom score, I would also look into burning a feat for Ability Focus: Stunning Fist from the Monster Manual. If you decide to go grappling, look into the Earthen Embrace feat (I believe it's from Races of Stone, not 100% sure, not even 100% on the feat name atm) that adds a d12 to your grapple damage when pinning.

I would also consider dropping the bracers of armor, which afaik provide an armor bonus to AC, and go with a ring of protection instead for a deflection bonus. (Not 100% sure without my books in front of me, but as I recall the armor bonus from bracers of armor don't get to count towards your touch AC).

Having a reach weapon handy along with combat reflexes can also help you get that extra edge against spell casters with the way AoOs and concentration works in 3.5 (not sure if this has changed a lot from previous editions, 3.5 is all I've ever done!). Just because you wield a weapon as a monk doesn't mean you have to use it, but having the option to whack that guy that was juuuuust out of normal reach is A+.

Starting at a higher lvl also allows you to discuss some of the Spelltouched feats from Complete...either Mage or Arcane? and whether they would be appropriate to your setting as well.

I would also check to see if Book of Exalted Deeds is available to you, and consider replacing weapon finesse with intuitive attack (would use your wisdom modifyer instead of str/dex for most of your attacks).

Other feats worth looking into are Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual) and Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle I think?), if you're looking to squeeze out a hair more damage with your unarmed strikes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I would also consider dropping the bracers of armor, which afaik provide an armor bonus to AC, and go with a ring of protection instead for a deflection bonus. (Not 100% sure without my books in front of me, but as I recall the armor bonus from bracers of armor don't get to count towards your touch AC).

Bracers of Armor are only half as much money.

[deuxhero]

Warblade with Mageslayer feats.


You won't beat a good Wizard without casting (unless you went full Psion), but most things won't.

[old timer newb]

Depending on exactly what you want to do with your PC as a wizardbane, I'd suggest looking into taking the grappling tree vs stunning fist. If you decide stunning fist is the way to go, I'd invest more into raising the DC on your fort save as much as possible. You've already done what you can with your wisdom score, I would also look into burning a feat for Ability Focus: Stunning Fist from the Monster Manual. If you decide to go grappling, look into the Earthen Embrace feat (I believe it's from Races of Stone, not 100% sure, not even 100% on the feat name atm) that adds a d12 to your grapple damage when pinning.

I would also consider dropping the bracers of armor, which afaik provide an armor bonus to AC, and go with a ring of protection instead for a deflection bonus. (Not 100% sure without my books in front of me, but as I recall the armor bonus from bracers of armor don't get to count towards your touch AC).

Having a reach weapon handy along with combat reflexes can also help you get that extra edge against spell casters with the way AoOs and concentration works in 3.5 (not sure if this has changed a lot from previous editions, 3.5 is all I've ever done!). Just because you wield a weapon as a monk doesn't mean you have to use it, but having the option to whack that guy that was juuuuust out of normal reach is A+.

Starting at a higher lvl also allows you to discuss some of the Spelltouched feats from Complete...either Mage or Arcane? and whether they would be appropriate to your setting as well.

I would also check to see if Book of Exalted Deeds is available to you, and consider replacing weapon finesse with intuitive attack (would use your wisdom modifyer instead of str/dex for most of your attacks).

Other feats worth looking into are Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual) and Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle I think?), if you're looking to squeeze out a hair more damage with your unarmed strikes.


Thanks! Most of those sources I don't have access to, but I'll look into grappling and reach weapons. I know there's a very good 1st lvl psionic grappling spell--that would probably be a good match up.

I don't think I can afford the ring of prot. and keep my other stuff however.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade with Mageslayer feats.


You won't beat a good Wizard without casting (unless you went full Psion), but most things won't.

Unarmed Swordsage.

But this guy's group is new. Is the DM using casters who summon monsters and walls of force while flying around? Or the fireball slingers?

[Gotterdammerung]

when i think of anti mage monks i think of arcanopath monk. It is in the dragon compendium, i think its issue #281 of dragon magazine.

Basically some useful stuff versus mages while still maintaining your monkness.
Dragon compendium also has some invaluable mnk feats in it. I'd recomend finding a copy. Ring the golden bell can be useful versus spellcasters since it allows you to make a ranged unarmed strike.

[Hunter Killer]

You might want to consider the feat Mage Slayer. It gives you a flat +1 on Will Saves, and casters you threaten can't Cast Defensively. The drawback is that it reduces your caster level for spells and spell-likes by 4 (Not sure if that effects Psionics because I'm not super familiar with that system).

Also, I'm surprised that that you didn't grab Monastic Training and Tashalatora. If the DM would allow you to take Eberron feats, then definitely take a look at those (Monastic is in Eberron Campaign Setting, and Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona).

Tashalatora would allow you to stack your Psychic Warrior or Psionic class levels (Based on what you select for Monastic Training) for Monk AC Bonus, Flurry, and Unarmed Damage... Which would free you up to to take something better than Psionic Fist (Which is very.. Meh...) in your build.

I don't have a build worked out in my head yet, but if you want one then I could probably come up with something.

[herrhauptmann]

You could put 'smoking' on your fists for a +1 cost. It's from Champions of Ruin I think. Or lords of darkness. I always get them confused.
Why is it good? It grants you a Stinking Cloud effect on anyone who enters your square (grappling usually), and while that has a low DC, it also includes the miss chances you get from Stinking Cloud (same as obscuring mist). So a flat 25% miss chance whenever someone attacks you is pretty sweet (doesn't work on AOOs that happen while you're moving).

I'd say the advantage to Bracers of Armor is being able to put regular armor enchantments on them like they're a chain shirt or something; while still getting your Monk AC bonus. In which case, I'd suggest you drop them to a +1 Bracers of armor, with a +2 worth of other enchantments on them. (At this level, miss chances are now worth more than AC anyway)

Well as far as trying to hurt casters, not just survive against them, I'd suggest taking the feat Mageslayer. Now, so long as they're in your reach, they can not cast defensively, ever.
And if you go with Medic!'s advice, you'll have a monk reach weapon in your hands. Get close enough to a wizard, he 5ft steps away, and he's now in reach of your monk weapon. On your turn, 5ft step in, and kick him to death.

If you've got the monk reach weapon, it's probably a 2 hander. So wear the steadfast boots from Magic Item Compendium. So long as you've got a 2hander, you're automatically set against any charges without wasting an action. Also, this action doesn't eat any of your AOOs for the round.

edit:Source reference

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, your GM has given you an ability to make up for one of the biggest problems with monks: inability to enchant your primary weapons.

Here's what I'd like to suggest to you, feel free to accept it or not.

If you want to be a psionic-type monk, there's a prestige class (think the old AD&D 'Bard' which required Thief, Fighter, and Druid to get into) called Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm).

There's two VERY important things you get from this that make you a much more potent threat to opponents:

1) Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm). A Large size does several things for you. First off, it's a raw damage increase. Second, it's a Reach increase. This is a LOT more powerful than most players new to 3.5 realize. You see, if you are Large, your natural weapons are effectively Reach weapons that can ALSO be used up close. This also means an opponent without reach will provoke an 'Attack of Opportunity' when trying to close with you, before they ever get a chance to take a swing at you.

Now here's the fun thing about that. Monks can pick up Improved Trip as a bonus feat. So he provokes an attack of opportunity for trying to close, then you use Improved Trip to trip and make a free attack against the now prone target, AND prevent him from actually closing and trying to hurt you. He has to wait until next turn to get back up. He shouldn't survive that long.

2) Lion's Charge, Psionic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). This solves one of the biggest flaws that Core Monks have: they get Flurry of Blows, which gives them additional attacks, but it requires a full attack to use it. However, it can be difficult to apply a flurry of blows unless you start next to an opponent, which can be detrimental to your health. This solves the problem, because it gives you the ability to Pounce, which lets you make a full attack on a charge. This lets you Flurry MUCH more frequently.

So you're going to want Monk9/Psionic Fist3. You also get another 1st level Power to go along with it. Options are:

Prescience, Offensive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm) - +2 damage. With enough of a manifester level, you can manifest it as a Swift action, although I don't think you'll be doing that unless you take the feat Practiced Manefester, which increases your effective manifester level by 4.

Force Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm) - Shield, by any other name. +4 Shield bonus to AC. Incorporeal attacks do NOT ignore it, since it is a force effect. Good to shore up defenses against incorporeal undead types.

Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) - Skip the Bracers of Armor and use this instead. Like Force Screen, it is a Force effect, and thus incorporeal attacks do not ignore it.

Biofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biofeedback.htm) - DR can be fun if you are dealing with a lot of small attacks. It's situational, but for it's situation, it's very handy to avoid getting nickle and dimed to death.

By going Monk9/Psionic Fist3, you gain the following benefits:

* Improved Evasion. This lets you pretty much ignore blastomancy.

* 2d6 unarmed damage. Because Psionic Fist and Monk stacks for unarmed damage progression. Pick up a Monk's Belt for 2d8.

* Immunity to diseases. That includes Mummy Rot.

* Aforementioned powers.

Here's the other cute thing: Psionic Fist lets you switch between it and monk freely. That means you can go back for two more levels of Monk for Perfect Flurry for the bonus attack. Then go back and finish off with Psionic Fist, picking up powers as you see fit.

[deuxhero]

You might want to consider the feat Mage Slayer. It gives you a flat +1 on Will Saves, and casters you threaten can't Cast Defensively. The drawback is that it reduces your caster level for spells and spell-likes by 4 (Not sure if that effects Psionics because I'm not super familiar with that system)..

It doesn't hurt Psionic users. Feats are the exception to the transparency rules.

[ericgrau]

+1 to grappling. Most wizards won't have a ready defense until level 15-ish. Also carry potions of see invisibility. Even d-door eats their turn (so it's break even at best) and carries a high risk of a failed concentration check. Grease is even worse. This means you might have to switch to a strength focus, which hurts touch AC a little. Psychic warrior is especially nice for grappling, thanks to expansion and grip of iron.

Wis only goes so far on a martial build. Strength (or dex if you stay with finesse) should be higher. Even with monk-psychic warrior synergy you. are. not. a. caster. Focus on fighting ability.

Boots of speed are only 12k, and good choice btw. Even for your build level 12 seems a bit early for a +5 cloak. Get a +4 and you have another whopping 9k to spend. Load up on 50 (yes 50) potions of mage armor and you can keep downing them every hour and have 1 more AC for less coin. +1 bracers might be ok so you don't have to go 24/7 paranoid on it (doesn't stack though). Save them for dungeons and you can get away with 20 and restock later. Plus bracers of armor don't help your touch AC and a +1 ring of protection + dusty rose prism ioun stone or +1 amulet of natural armor is a better deal for AC anyway. Sorry, I just left you with even more money to spend. Well, if you're short on power points for grip of iron, gloves of titan's grip is 14k for a +8 to grapples for 3 combats per day. Potions are nice in general. Besides see invisibility, grab invisibility, potions of cure light wounds and whatever else suits your fancy.

[deuxhero]

50 potions? Wha?

If you go psionic, there are cheeper powers for that.

[ericgrau]

Still cheaper than bracers. You can get away with 20 if you play it smart. I'm mostly emphasizing how cheap level 1 potions are. But ya neither stacks with inertial armor like the OP thought (and he had me going for a minute), so it's moot.

Hmm, well protection from evil is a good cheap pre-combat buff potion when you get a buffing round. Also makes you immune to wizardy charm/dominate. Doesn't stack with ring of protection though, so if you load up on PfE you might want to switch the ring to amulet of natural armor or to something unrelated.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some gear I would suggest:

* Ring of Freedom of Movement. This makes you immune to 'stay put while I shoot at you with impunity'.

* Necklace of Adaptation. This makes you immune to Stinking Cloud/Cloudkill/other area-effect type shenanigans.

* If you don't mind the extra cost, instead of Necklace of Adaptation, you can pick up a Periapt of Proof Against Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofProofagainstPoison). However, the Necklace of Adaptation also gives you water breathing.

* Vest of Resistance +5. For 25k, you have a +5 to all your resists. This is also known as 'win'.

[JackRackham]

Your character looks good (as far as resisting casters, for sure), but if you're able, I would definitely take swordsage and max out concentration. They get manuevers that basically let them make concentration checks in place of saves. Mage-slayer is also a must for an anti-caster (as has been mentioned). If you're comitted to the monk flavor, unarmed swordsage, I guess ( I don't know much about it). But, a swordsage with a spiked chain and mageslayer would be even more of a caster-bane, in my opinion.

[JackRackham]

Also, for what it's worth, the relevant manuevers are fairly low level, if I recall correctly, so you could take a couple levels (three, probably, later the better) and get them, along with wisdom to AC (touch?).

[old timer newb]

First off, I should reemphasize what I said in my first post we use SRB and Players book--other sources can only be used sparingly So I can't take a class (like Warblade or swordsage--don't know what those are) that isn't in those books. Feats and gear, however are more permissable.


@ Hunter Killer--Thanks for suggesting mage slayer. Where can I find that? Can't do the other stuff for reasons above.

@ herr hauptman--smoking sounds good, I'll look into it

@Sheekny--I already have 7 levels of psionic fist in my build, so I am familiar with it--I already took most of the powers you suggested. I don't quite get your gear suggestions--I already have a cloak of resistance which appears to do the same as the vest you suggest; I'm already naturally immune to poison and I can already cast freedom of movement.

@ericgau--Thanks, that is very helpful. I think I will trash the bracers and use my extra money replace them with a monk belt and a plus 1 AC item. The monk belt will give me another point of AC which will stack for Touch AC, as well as more unarmed damage and stunning fist.

Finally re: reach and grappling. I plan on using expansion a lot, so I think I will already have reach? Am I reading that right?

The thing I don't like about grappling is that it works off my bad strength score. I am going to have to think about that more.

This is what I really want to ask about though:


But this guy's group is new. Is the DM using casters who summon monsters and walls of force while flying around? Or the fireball slingers?


You won't beat a good Wizard without casting (unless you went full Psion), but most things won't.

What kind of tactics do casters use that make them so unbeatable? Remember that we're mostly using SRD and Player's Book in this game. If people could give me some ideas that would be great. For example what is so effective about summon monster + wall of force?

[Getsugaru]

T'd suggest a Rod of Surprises, which costs exactly 6K, because it has the ability to transform into a huge number of different +1 weapons, and can be used as much as you want. Some of the Weapons also count as Monk weapons, so I'd say that's one of your weapons of choice (Yes, I know that reference is a bit cheesy).

[gkathellar]

If you have Psionic Fist, you should be okay. Casting (including psionics) is a pretty big deal in 3.5, so getting that from Psionic Fist should help you out a lot. You'll need to shift your leveling around a bit, though — you can't qualify for Psionic Fist before 7th level due to skill and BAB requirements. I suggest you drop Psychic Warrior and just go Monk 6/Psionic Fist 6, as Psionic Fist and Psychic Warrior don't stack for most purposes. You might also go Monk 6/Psionic Fist 1/Slayer 5 — Slayer gives you more BAB and some nice anti-caster buffs in addition to progressing your Psionic Fist manifesting.

(I'm not sure what kind of books your group does or doesn't have physical access to, but if anyone has Races of Eberron you might also want to ask your DM for a special exception to get the Talashtora feat (you may be able to find it online). It basically lets you play a Psychic Warrior with a couple of Monk levels as a more effective version of the Psionic Fist. Consensus holds that Monks are pretty bad, and Talashtora is one of the ways to make them quite good. Psionic Fist is basically a slightly inferior version of the same.)

You should be aware though, that your effectiveness as an anti-caster is going to depend a lot on your DM — with sufficient know-how, a caster they can pretty easily trump just about anyone. A good DM will give your anti-caster a chance to shine by playing enemy casters sub-optimally. If this becomes a problem over the course of play, talk to him about it.

[Amphetryon]

What kind of tactics do casters use that make them so unbeatable? Remember that we're mostly using SRD and Player's Book in this game. If people could give me some ideas that would be great. For example what is so effective about summon monster + wall of force?One of the stronger ways to build characters is to optimize the "action economy." What this means, roughly, is to ensure that your side gets as many worthwhile actions as possible, and hopefully more than your opponent gets. Both the Summon Monster line and the various Wall spells work toward that goal: the former by increasing the number of actions your team has, the latter by reducing the number of useful actions the opponent has via Divide and Conquer.

In previous editions, Evocation spells, and Area of Effect spells in general, were extremely popular and useful, because Evasion was rare, often worked differently than it does in 3.5, and HP totals were considerably lower in all but some corner cases. In 3.5, it's relatively trivial to get Evasion, and HP totals scale much better versus the damage a Fireball (for instance) does. What previously was a life-threatening injury to a Fighter is now an annoyance, one which doesn't actually hinder said Fighter's efficacy in combat. With Summons, Battlefield Control (BFC for short) spells like Walls and Fogs, and Save-or-Lose spells, casters in 3.5 generally get better bang for their buck in their spell selection.

Finally, note that 3.5 removes many of the downsides to spells that were prevalent in past editions. Haste no longer ages the recipient, casting in combat is viable with the Concentration skill, etc.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@Sheekny--I already have 7 levels of psionic fist in my build, so I am familiar with it--I already took most of the powers you suggested. I don't quite get your gear suggestions--I already have a cloak of resistance which appears to do the same as the vest you suggest; I'm already naturally immune to poison and I can already cast freedom of movement.

Why so many levels, and why ditch out so soon? You miss out on Wholeness of Body (self-healing) and Improved Evasion. You also don't get the Flurry of Blows penalty reduction at level 9, and it's now a long trek to get Greater Flurry at Monk11.

I suggest Vest of Resistance rather than a Cloak because there are other cloaks that are useful to you, but you don't have any other things you want to put on your torso. To prevent item-slot blocking, I suggest vest.

How are you immune to poison? You're immune to Disease at Monk5, but monks don't get immunity to poison until level 11, and Psionic Fist explicitly does *NOT* stack for this.

And how can you cast Freedom of Movement? However, even if you can, why would you want to spend valuable and limited PP on something you can throw money at?

[tyckspoon]

Why so many levels, and why ditch out so soon? You miss out on Wholeness of Body (self-healing) and Improved Evasion. You also don't get the Flurry of Blows penalty reduction at level 9, and it's now a long trek to get Greater Flurry at Monk11.


More powers known, higher level powers known, and enough PP to actually use them? Your suggestion at Psionic Fist 3 gives a whopping 3 Powers and 6 PP plus whatever he gets from high ability score (at class level 3, it's not a lot.) 2 or 3 Inertial Armors a day takes half of that base, as does a single Lion's Charge, as does Expansion using the extended-duration augmentation.

[gkathellar]

You miss out on Wholeness of Body (self-healing) and Improved Evasion. You also don't get the Flurry of Blows penalty reduction at level 9, and it's now a long trek to get Greater Flurry at Monk11.

Wholeness of Body is awful, and the penalty reductions on Flurry of Blows are fake bonuses — they're equivalent to gaining BAB at levels where you would otherwise lose it, except they don't give you any of the actual benefits of BAB besides increased attack bonus. Greater Flurry isn't worth taking 11 whole monk levels, and Imp. Evasion isn't a necessity.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wholeness of Body is awful, and the penalty reductions on Flurry of Blows are fake bonuses — they're equivalent to gaining BAB at levels where you would otherwise lose it, except they don't give you any of the actual benefits of BAB besides increased attack bonus. Greater Flurry isn't worth taking 11 whole monk levels, and Imp. Evasion isn't a necessity.

I would disagree about Greater Flurry... it's basically Haste that stacks with haste effects. Extra attacks = extra damage. Monk11/Psionic Fist9 is better than Monk10/Psionic Fist10

[old timer newb]

One of the stronger ways to build characters is to optimize the "action economy." What this means, roughly, is to ensure that your side gets as many worthwhile actions as possible, and hopefully more than your opponent gets. Both the Summon Monster line and the various Wall spells work toward that goal: the former by increasing the number of actions your team has, the latter by reducing the number of useful actions the opponent has via Divide and Conquer.

In previous editions, Evocation spells, and Area of Effect spells in general, were extremely popular and useful, because Evasion was rare, often worked differently than it does in 3.5, and HP totals were considerably lower in all but some corner cases. In 3.5, it's relatively trivial to get Evasion, and HP totals scale much better versus the damage a Fireball (for instance) does. What previously was a life-threatening injury to a Fighter is now an annoyance, one which doesn't actually hinder said Fighter's efficacy in combat. With Summons, Battlefield Control (BFC for short) spells like Walls and Fogs, and Save-or-Lose spells, casters in 3.5 generally get better bang for their buck in their spell selection.

Finally, note that 3.5 removes many of the downsides to spells that were prevalent in past editions. Haste no longer ages the recipient, casting in combat is viable with the Concentration skill, etc.

This is helpful, thank you. Looking at my build though, I feel like my saves are high enough not to worry about save or lose spells lower than 7th lvl at this point, and dimension slide and Freedom of Movement should help me deal with any BFC issues. So, I think mostly I need to worry about summons.

Any one else know common caster tactics that I should be prepared for?

@gkathellar: Can you explain your point about optimal caster playing a bit more? I want an idea of what will happen if my DM decides to try and kill me.

@Shneeky: Thanks for clarifying about the vest. I am immune to poison because of my race, and Freedom of Movement is on my spell list. I recall that the Freedom of Movement item was very expensive (like 40 or 45k?) which would take almost half of my starting gold. That doesn't seem like a good investment for something that I can cast as needed. I can even scribe some tattoos of it so that I don't have to burn points everytime.

[Curious]

-Snip-

i think I'll leave this here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

[The Glyphstone]

The trifecta of typical caster defenses: Flight, Invisibility, Miss Chances. The Touchsight power, if you can get it, will solve the latter two for the most part, but you'll really, really want to be able to fly to be guaranteed at contributing to fights in double-digit levels (both against casters, and simply flying monsters).

[gkathellar]

OP, ideally your DM won't try to kill you, so it shouldn't be a big deal. If he starts throwing around Forcecages and effects that don't let you make saves and all of that, talk with him. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry about it. (I expect that if he's letting you use stuff you find on the internet, he's aware of these problems to some degree himself.)

Just note what I said above — that your build is not presently legal. You need 9 Concentration ranks before taking Psionic Fist, and that means at least 6 character levels.


I would disagree about Greater Flurry... it's basically Haste that stacks with haste effects. Extra attacks = extra damage. Monk11/Psionic Fist9 is better than Monk10/Psionic Fist10

There isn't any excuse for taking 10 levels of monk, but if you're that committed already you may as well throw in one more for a solid DPS bonus. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are better things you could have done with your levels in the first place.

[Hunter Killer]

I've done some reading on Psionics since I last posted, and I have to say that it's too bad you're limited on sources.

Tashalatora with access to Complete Psionics could open you up to Monk 2 / Ardent 10, which is arguably one of the best builds for the type of character you're trying to build (It's also my favorite because it's simple an elegant, yet powerful).

Failing that, if you could get approved for Monastic Training and Tashalatora (They are feats, and you said feats are permissible), you could do some nice tricks with:

Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 3 / Warmind 7. Abilities that beef up your combat effectiveness with a total of 40PP, 3rd Level Manifesting, 7 Powers, and 12th level Monk Unarmed/Flurry/AC. You'd need Monastic Training for both Psychic Warrior and Warmind.

Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 4 / Slayer 6. Abilities that allow you to better resist casters with a total of 23PP, 3rd Level Manifesting, 9 Powers, and 12th level Monk Unarmed/Flurry/AC. You'd need Monastic Training for both Psychic Warrior and Slayer.

Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 10. Standard Monk and Psychic Warrior abilities, but with 27PP, 4th Level Manifesting, 10 Powers, and 12th level Monk Unarmed/Flurry/AC. You'd only need Monastic Training for Psychic Warrior.

Monk 3 / Psychic Warrior 3 / Psionic Fist 6. You missed the requirements by a hair on your original post. That said, it gives you 26PP, 3rd Level Manifesting, 9 Powers, and 12th level Monk Unarmed/Flurry/AC. If the DM allowed Tashalatora to stack with the Fist's Monk Abilities feature (Making your Unarmed and AC equivalent to 18th level Monk), then I'd get Monastic Training on Warrior and Fist. Otherwise, just Warrior.

[Hiro Protagonest]

@gkathellar: Can you explain your point about optimal caster playing a bit more? I want an idea of what will happen if my DM decides to try and kill me.

Full casters win at everything in core. Monks suck at everything except with use of ACFs and good feats. Tashalatora (which isn't available to you) or Psionic Fist brings monks up (actually, there's also Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, and Fist of the Forest as well, but those are in other books). Why do casters win at everything?

Let's look at the Psionic Fist power list for a monk 6/psionic fist 6. They get two powers of up to first level, two of up to second, and two of up to third, and a reserve of 23 PP. Metaphysical Claw brings up your terrible attack bonus. Just remember at this level your Manifester Level is only 6, so you can only spend 5 points to get a +2 bonus to attack and damage. That's still a good improvement for 6 hours (spending the additional points also bring up the duration to 1 hour/level) for less than 1/4 of your PP. Inertial armor can provide a +6 to armor class for 6 hours with another 5 points. For 2nd level powers, Wall Walker is good, as is Body Equilibrium and Concealing Amorpha. For 3rd level powers, Great Concealing Amorpha grants you total concealment for 6 rounds, long enough for most fights, plus Hostile Empathic Transfer and Empathic Feedback, the first of which can harm your enemy and heal you for up to 50 points of damage (25 if they make a will save) and healed you for the Sam amount, and the latter of which just deals 5 points of damage to hover attacks you in melee.

Now let's compare to straight monk. No ability to walk on walls or water, no miss chance for protection, only a small bonus to AC, no bonus on attack and damage rolls, etc.

Now let's compare to straight wizard. At this level, he's got Overland Flight, meaning he's a fighter plane all day long. Or a bomber. Whatever is more advantageous in any given situation. He can destroy armies with Cloudkill, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Chain Lightning, but Cloudkill is really all he needs to use. Or he could bind an astral deva and keep it until it agrees to fight the army, using its blade barrier ability. He can also use Wind Wall to keep those pesky archers from aiming at him.

[gkathellar]

@Hunterkiller

You would only need monastic training for any of those if you intended to take more monk levels, which you could do without.

[ericgrau]

On the matter of grappling, I'd still do it even if you stay dex focused. Between expansion and grip of iron or gloves of titan's grip, you have a ridiculous +12. I don't know what they were smoking when they made those but you might as well exploit it as long as it's allowed. The feat gives another +4 and keeps your initial attempt from provoking an attack of opportunity, but if your target doesn't have a melee weapon and/or can't hit your AC, that issue is moot. Plus you can make your full attack something like: stunning fist (dealing unarmed strike damage and potentially stunning), attempt to initiate a grapple (dealing unarmed strike damage again), deal grapple damage (dealing unarmed strike damage again). Grappling also overcomes most sources of miss chance. And your many attacks lets you make many attempts to initiate it and thus overcome a couple failures.

For flight you can engage indoors, jump and go up the walls to reach your target. For emergencies or outdoors you can carry potions of spider climb and fly. Spider climb lasts 30 minutes, which is plenty for most infiltration.

[Hunter Killer]

You would only need monastic training for any of those if you intended to take more monk levels, which you could do without.
Wrong.

I have Secrets of Sarlona propped open and next to me right now. The Tashalatora feat specificially states that only psionic classes you've selected with Monastic Training stack to determine your Monk abilities.

The ability to take more Monk levels is just an extra, probably useless, benefit of having to meet the requirements of Tashalatora.

[Keld Denar]

Tashalatora is explained on the Wizards.com site in their Secrets of Sarlona exerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5). Thats pretty much SRD level of easy access, right?

The issue with Psionic Fist is that you basically start over again with Powers pogression. It has its own progression, similar to Warmind, and thus the levels of manifesting classes you have prior to entering Psionic Fist simply give you a ton of low level powers, which is only marginally useful. Better would be something that either gives "+1 Manifester Levels" or is equivalent. Thats why Tashalatora is considered so good. It splices PsyWar (or Psion, or Wilder, or Ardent, or PsyRogue, or any other [Psionic] class) together with Monk, making the Psionic class you would have used to qualify for Psionic Fist or other PrC INTO the the Psionic PrC. You are taking 18 levels of PsyWar so you are always advancing, rather than having to reset back to 1st level right before you get 2nd level powers and live through that through another 2 levels like what would happen if you entered Psionic Fist. Also, due to the way ML works with your manifesting stat, you'll get more bonus PP/day from say, 13 PsyWar levels than you would from 3 PsyWar levels + 10 Psionic Fist levels. Since you'll already be starved for PP because PsyWar and Psionic Fist have very slow PP accumulation rates, this makes Tashalatora a MUCH stronger option for daily longevity. Running out of gas after the 2nd combat sucks!

Plus, its just plain simple. Monk2/PsyWar18 (or whatever level you are playing at). 2 classes, one of which you take first, the other of which you progress for the rest of your career. The 2 feats you need are simple (Monastic Training, which basically does nothing for you, but is a prereq) and Tashalatora (in the link I linked above). You need a couple of skills, some of them are the same as the ones you need for Psionic Fist, and would be taking anyway, and BAM! Done.

[gkathellar]

Wrong.

I have Secrets of Sarlona propped open and next to me right now. The Tashalatora feat specificially states that only psionic classes you've selected with Monastic Training stack to determine your Monk abilities.

The ability to take more Monk levels is just an extra, probably useless, benefit of having to meet the requirements of Tashalatora.

Ah — you're correct. It's been a while since I looked at Talashtora. Sorry, didn't mean to misinform.

[old timer newb]

@ Keld/Hunter and others: Thanks for the Tashlatora stuff. I will see if I can get that, since it looks like I won't have 4th level powers otherwise, which I need for freedom of movement and steadfast perception.

@ericgau--I think maybe I will switch to grapples.


Now let's compare to straight wizard. At this level, he's got Overland Flight, meaning he's a fighter plane all day long. Or a bomber. Whatever is more advantageous in any given situation. He can destroy armies with Cloudkill, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Chain Lightning, but Cloudkill is really all he needs to use. Or he could bind an astral deva and keep it until it agrees to fight the army, using its blade barrier ability. He can also use Wind Wall to keep those pesky archers from aiming at him.

I see. It sounds to me like the main issue is flight, since those particular spells don't seem like they would harm me much. I have Up the Walls for indoor/urban settings, but I can't get flight until I have 5th lvl powers. I guess I need to buy potions, if we happen to be out on a plain or something.

I do plan to use hustle/cloak dance to regularly get miss chances.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see. It sounds to me like the main issue is flight, since those particular spells don't seem like they would harm me much. I have Up the Walls for indoor/urban settings, but I can't get flight until I have 5th lvl powers. I guess I need to buy potions, if we happen to be out on a plain or something.

I do plan to use hustle/cloak dance to regularly get miss chances.

Cloudkill is No Save Just Lose. At a minimum, it's Con damage, even if you make the save. That's why I suggested a Necklace of Adaptation to be immune to it.

Your other problem is that, by this time, wizards have Quicken True Strike + Orb of (element) to dish out some serious pain. The True Strike gives them a tremendous +20 to their attack roll, which means suddenly they *ARE* hitting you regularly, and ALSO negates miss chance. No saving throw on the damage, either. This gets painful fast.

If you don't have a way to get into the air, you're in trouble vs any caster.

[Urpriest]

Cloudkill is No Save Just Lose. At a minimum, it's Con damage, even if you make the save. That's why I suggested a Necklace of Adaptation to be immune to it.

Your other problem is that, by this time, wizards have Quicken True Strike + Orb of (element) to dish out some serious pain. The True Strike gives them a tremendous +20 to their attack roll, which means suddenly they *ARE* hitting you regularly, and ALSO negates miss chance. No saving throw on the damage, either. This gets painful fast.

If you don't have a way to get into the air, you're in trouble vs any caster.

Minor nitpick: in this game they don't have Orb of X.

That said, a sufficiently cheesy Wizard of this level is exploiting Nightmares for immortality, so...yeah.

[ericgrau]

Depending on how often you need to fly winged boots grant it to you 3/day for 16,000 gp. Same as using a 750 gp potion each time though, so again it depends how often you need it. I was assuming your mission was an indoors infiltration when I suggested potions.

There's also the broom of flying which is the equivalent of overland flight for 9 hours per day for 17,000 gp. The only problem with both overland flight and the broom is that they each have bird maneuverability while the fly spell has peter pan maneuverability. Carpet of flying is similar for 20,000 gp but gives you a nice platform to jump off of and it can hover in spite of its otherwise bird maneuverability.

The cheapest non-potion option is a pegasus, hippogriff, griffion or similar mount for around 5,000-8,000 gp. They're available as 10,000 gp figurines of wondrous power if you need a more portable pokemon version. Or you can grab a more durable one who has class levels using leadership. All 3 have average (bird) maneuverability.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, interesting point. A Potion of Flying is 750g, and costs a standard action just like Boots of Flying. For the 16,000g, you can buy 21.3 potions of flying (lets round to 21). Thats 3/day, every day, for 1 week, or 3 per week for 7 weeks (just under 2 months).

If you don't think you'll need more than that, its worth it. The potions also have the advantage of being able to use more than 3 times in a day.

[ericgrau]

Oh ya and he has the awesomesauce boots of speed in the foot slot, which complicates his options.

[old timer newb]

I think I am going to go with the potions. We're going to be sneaking around a lot, and I want to stay inside/underground as much as possible anyway. If I am fighting a mage on a featureless plain in the middle of the day, just about everything has already gone wrong, and we'll likely be running away.

I am trying to convince my DM on tashlatora. I don't understand from the description in the link how it works. Do I get all my monk abilities, plus psychic warrior? Or do I just the monk abilities that psionic fist gives, to the psychic warrior level?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I am trying to convince my DM on tashlatora. I don't understand from the description in the link how it works. Do I get all my monk abilities, plus psychic warrior? Or do I just the monk abilities that psionic fist gives, to the psychic warrior level?

The second.

[old timer newb]

Thanks. So I can get better casting, but take a hit to my saves. Probably worth it, though.

[Keld Denar]

It's simple. With regards to your UAS damage, flurry ability, and AC bonus, you just add up your levels in each class. So a Monk2/PsyWar9 has the UAS damage of an 11th level monk, and greater flurry, for example.

[old timer newb]

Oh wait, so I get the flurry, but not movement? Psionic fist gives the movement but not the flurry.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is the best part of Tashalatora.

http://i.imgur.com/ESsAP.jpg

Kineticist psions, in this case.

[hex0]

greater flurry gets a lot better if you can get your BAB up much after you have it.

Monk 11/Warmind 9 for example.

Also take Improved Natural Attack as a feat if you do no have

[Urpriest]

Oh wait, so I get the flurry, but not movement? Psionic fist gives the movement but not the flurry.

Yeah. Basically, read the feat. It gives exactly those features it says it does, and no more.

[old timer newb]

Yeah. Basically, read the feat. It gives exactly those features it says it does, and no more.

I don't have the book, and the description online doesn't have the detail.

[Hunter Killer]

Tashalatora allows you to stack Monk and the Psionic classes you designate with Monastic Training for purposes of calculating AC Bonus, Flurry, and Unarmed Damage.

To get Tashalatora, you need 5 ranks each in Autohypnosis and Concentration, Monastic Training in at least one Psionic class, and access to 1st level Powers.

Monastic Training only lets you choose one class, so that's why you need it more than once if you have more than one Psionic class. All it does is allows you to multiclass freely between Monk and another class.

[Gotterdammerung]

high saves evasion and high touch are all nice for surviving low lvl spellcasters. But it breaks down when you run into higher lvl spellcasters. Especially casters with refined builds. Things can get real dangerous real fast. I've seen stuff like moment of prescience used for massive initiative roll then avasculate belt of battle power word kill for a first turn no save 1 round kill. I've seen quickened true stike added to a disenegrate ray from a cheesy arcane tricksters that did 20d6 if you passed the save and he used his maximze rod (basically if you passed you went ouch if u failed u were dead.)

I've seen succubus spellcasters who gave you negative levels with magic missile and kept the spells lost from the negative lvls for for themselves and gained cumulative bonuses to d20 rolls for each negative lvl they stole.

And these are just combos that work within the clear rules. If you are the kinda player who takes the "I can do it as long as it doesn't say i can't do it" approach to D n D then spellcasters can become Gods, literally.

That being said, if your serious about standing up to spell casters, you need to look to endgame protections like deathward, SR (high and scaling, cause if its like flat and 10-20 range u might as well not bother), spell turning, mind blank.

Occult slayer out of the complete warrior is a decent anti-mage class.
With a bow this class can actually have a chance of shutting down a mage.

Forsaker can do well if done right.

Damp power is an awesome power for shutting down certain aspects of spellcasters if your using transparency rules.

I would look into ways you can ready to disrupt spellcasting and/or ways to grapple. Grapple isn't fool proof by any means. Almost every mage has a contingency plan for escaping their common weaknesses. (thats one of the reasons why it is so hard to make a full-proof anti-mage build, mages know their weaknesses and use magic to cover it.)

[tyckspoon]

high saves evasion and high touch are all nice for surviving low lvl spellcasters. But it breaks down when you run into higher lvl spellcasters. Especially casters with refined builds. Things can get real dangerous real fast. I've seen stuff like moment of prescience used for massive initiative roll then avasculate belt of battle power word kill for a first turn no save 1 round kill.
Avasculate is both a ray and a [Death] effect, so high touch AC still works there, and frankly if you're not immune to both [Death] and [Mind-Affecting] effects by the time you have to deal with 9th level spells you deserve whatever happens to you- if a classed Wizard doesn't get you, there's dozens of monsters that will cheerfully one-shot you with such effects as well (the combo does work pretty well on a large subset of monsters, but don't expect to pull it off on anything with either casting power or wealth and intelligence.)

I've seen succubus spellcasters who gave you negative levels with magic missile and kept the spells lost from the negative lvls for for themselves and gained cumulative bonuses to d20 rolls for each negative lvl they stole.


This I'd be curious to know the build for if you remember it; I know the standard methods for applying negative levels on basically every sort of spell, but I've never run into a way to transfer that into a beneficial effect for the caster.

[hex0]

high saves evasion and high touch are all nice for surviving low lvl spellcasters. But it breaks down when you run into higher lvl spellcasters. Especially casters with refined builds. Things can get real dangerous real fast. I've seen stuff like moment of prescience used for massive initiative roll then avasculate belt of battle power word kill for a first turn no save 1 round kill. I've seen quickened true stike added to a disenegrate ray from a cheesy arcane tricksters that did 20d6 if you passed the save and he used his maximze rod (basically if you passed you went ouch if u failed u were dead.)

I've seen succubus spellcasters who gave you negative levels with magic missile and kept the spells lost from the negative lvls for for themselves and gained cumulative bonuses to d20 rolls for each negative lvl they stole.

And these are just combos that work within the clear rules. If you are the kinda player who takes the "I can do it as long as it doesn't say i can't do it" approach to D n D then spellcasters can become Gods, literally.

That being said, if your serious about standing up to spell casters, you need to look to endgame protections like deathward, SR (high and scaling, cause if its like flat and 10-20 range u might as well not bother), spell turning, mind blank.

Occult slayer out of the complete warrior is a decent anti-mage class.
With a bow this class can actually have a chance of shutting down a mage.

Forsaker can do well if done right.

Damp power is an awesome power for shutting down certain aspects of spellcasters if your using transparency rules.

I would look into ways you can ready to disrupt spellcasting and/or ways to grapple. Grapple isn't fool proof by any means. Almost every mage has a contingency plan for escaping their common weaknesses. (thats one of the reasons why it is so hard to make a full-proof anti-mage build, mages know their weaknesses and use magic to cover it.)

Thing is, this is mostly core with mostly new 3.5 players.

Can we just say, play Monk 2/Psywar 5/Slayer 10/Elocater 1/Psywar 3 or whatever with all the mage slayer feats? (for flavor) (or monk 11/Warmind 9)

Im tired of people saying SRD (plus a few dips outside) only and then being bombarded with (play TOB class). Am I the only one?

[Gotterdammerung]

Avasculate is both a ray and a [Death] effect, so high touch AC still works there, and frankly if you're not immune to both [Death] and [Mind-Affecting] effects by the time you have to deal with 9th level spells you deserve whatever happens to you- if a classed Wizard doesn't get you, there's dozens of monsters that will cheerfully one-shot you with such effects as well (the combo does work pretty well on a large subset of monsters, but don't expect to pull it off on anything with either casting power or wealth and intelligence.)


This I'd be curious to know the build for if you remember it; I know the standard methods for applying negative levels on basically every sort of spell, but I've never run into a way to transfer that into a beneficial effect for the caster.

I know there are ways to counter the stuff i listed. My point was, you can't just be thinking about early level spell counters.


And the build uses Fell drain metamagic. With some metamagic cost reduction if u want to throw that on. And then the feats Improved energy drain and Spell drain. Imp energy drain requires u have energy drain as a supernatural ability and a 15 chr (like the succubus does). It gives u a unamed +1 bonus to atks skillcheck ability checks and saving throws for 1 hour. Spell drain requires caster lvl 5, energy drain (Su), chr 15 and imp energy drain. When your energy drain causes a spellcaster to lose a prepared spell slot (does nothing against spontaneous casters), you gain 1 casting of each lost spell, all parameters are as if the original caster cast the spell.

Essentially you then use multi target spells like magic missile to hit as many people as possible with one spell. 5 missiles hit 5 different people you get a spell from the cleric and a spell from the wizard and a +5 to atks saves skillchecks and ability checks for 1 hour. Next round another 2 spells and +10 total bonus to d20 rolls. You can compound on it with metamagic reduction builds and twinspell repeat spell cheese. But its strong enough as is.


You can also throw in Life drain , prerequs chr 15, energy drain (su). This feat causes the max hp lost by a negative level to be 5+chr and you gain this lost hp in temporary hit points. By the wording of the feat, these temp hit points seem to stack but that argument could go either way.

[tyckspoon]

And the build uses Fell drain metamagic. With some metamagic cost reduction if u want to throw that on. And then the feats Improved energy drain and Spell drain. Imp energy drain requires u have energy drain as a supernatural ability and a 15 chr (like the succubus does). It gives u a unamed +1 bonus to atks skillcheck ability checks and saving throws for 1 hour. Spell drain requires caster lvl 5, energy drain (Su), chr 15 and imp energy drain. When your energy drain causes a spellcaster to lose a prepared spell slot (does nothing against spontaneous casters), you gain 1 casting of each lost spell, all parameters are as if the original caster cast the spell.


Oh, that's pretty nifty. And on checking I realize the reason I haven't heard of it before is the requirement for an Energy Drain ability.. the LA/RHD required for that puts it outside feasibility for your usual optimization guides. A standard player-version succubus could just about get it all together just before Epic; have to (ab)use the non-associated levels rule for monster CR to have it as an enemy encounter at a point where the trick is still relevant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tashalatora allows you to stack Monk and the Psionic classes you designate with Monastic Training for purposes of calculating AC Bonus, Flurry, and Unarmed Damage.

To get Tashalatora, you need 5 ranks each in Autohypnosis and Concentration, Monastic Training in at least one Psionic class, and access to 1st level Powers.

Monastic Training only lets you choose one class, so that's why you need it more than once if you have more than one Psionic class. All it does is allows you to multiclass freely between Monk and another class.

Does your monk level increase your ML (but not PP/powers known)?

[Keld Denar]

No, it doesn't. You'll either have to deal with the fact that your ML will always be 2 points behind your character level, or spend a feat on Practiced Manifester to gain those 2 points of ML back. Given that your bonus PP for a high manifesting stat is based on your ML (rather than class level like bonus spells/day are), Practiced Manifester will often net you a few extra bonus PP, especially at higher levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

No, it doesn't. You'll either have to deal with the fact that your ML will always be 2 points behind your character level, or spend a feat on Practiced Manifester to gain those 2 points of ML back. Given that your bonus PP for a high manifesting stat is based on your ML (rather than class level like bonus spells/day are), Practiced Manifester will often net you a few extra bonus PP, especially at higher levels.

Actually, it's based on class level, not ML.

But neither Monastic Training or Tashalatora require monk levels. :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

Actually, its not.


How To Determine Bonus Power Points

Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.

And technically, no, Tash doesn't require ANY monk levels, but its generally accepted that 2 is a fairly common number to take. Monk2 is loaded with bonus feats and abilities, along with all good saves for +3 to all saves. Tash builds tend to require a lot of feats, so getting IUAS, Monastic Training, and your choice of Improved Grapple or Combat Reflexes (or others, if you use variant monks such as Cobra Strike or Passive Way) all as bonus feats is often important, especially when playing without flaws.

[Hunter Killer]

But neither Monastic Training or Tashalatora require monk levels.
Correct by RAW, but probably not RAI. Keep in mind you're giving up the Monk's Wisdom to AC, Evasion, an additional +1 to all saves, and a Bonus Feat (You'd want to use one of them for Monastic Training). All of those can come in handy, even at high levels.

It's a much, much better trade when you have the Ardent available (because Ardent doesn't have a Maximum Power Level Known... Just special restrictions), but it's still a pretty good trade if Psychic Warrior is your base (because he's never going to get 9th level Powers anyways).

@Keld Denar (or anyone else, I guess)

I have to agree that Tashalatoras are not cheap on the feat side of things, but the Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 10 build would give us plenty to work with. Considering what the OP wants to do, what do you think he should do for feats?

I think the obvious feats are: Scorpion's Grasp with Improved Grapple to take care of the 1st level feats (Level+Bonus). For 2nd (Bonus Feat), Monastic Training (Psychich Warrior). Tashalatora for 3rd (Level).

That leaves us with feats for 6th, 9th, and 12th level then four feats from Psychich Warrior 10.

What would you think of Mage Slayer, Linked Power, and Cloak Dance for the level feats, then Combat Reflexes, Psionic Meditation, Unavoidable Strike, and Speed of Thought (I would say Psionic Fists, but he doesn't have the STR! Can Superior Unarmed Strike be taken as a Figther Bonus Feat? If so, I'd grab that instead...) for the Psychic Warrior feats?

The point of the build would be to stay invisible or obscured via Cloak Dance, get close, grapple a bitch, then go to town while you're holding him down (and thus preventing spellcasting).