Help With A Poisonous Character

[Serpentine]

One of my players is playing a poisondusk lizardfolk Ranger who specialises in poisons. We have discovered that the thing about poisons is that they're either completely useless or encounter-ending, without much in-between...
I think he's getting frustrated with his character. As he very kindly and voluntarily switched from an overpowered Druid build to this underpowered Ranger one, I really wanna make him happy with the character.

He has proposed increasing the DCs of his poisons in exchange for reducing the damage dealt. This seems reasonable to me. I'm not sure how much to change it, though. Would adding 5 to the DCs and halving the damage do the trick? I'm thinking I'll let him decide when he buys/makes the poisons whether it'll be normal or altered.

The other possibility for increasing his options and potency is in his unfinished Legacy Weapon. At the moment, it looks like this (keeping in mind I'm building it quite shoddily with lots of DM's licence):


Itzcoatl (Legacy Item)
[description]

[picture]

Nonlegacy Game Statistics: +1 Sizing Greater Blowgun; Cost Xgp; Weight Xlb.
Omen: Drips poison from its end.

History
[history]

Legacy Rituals
Two rituals are required to unlock all the abilities of Itzcoatl.
[name]: [Ritual]. Cost: 1,500gp. Feat Granted: Least Legacy (Itzcoatl).
[name]: [Ritual] Cost: 11,500gp. Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy (Itzcoatl).

Personal Cost
The wielder must pour a few cupfuls of blood from a creature (or several) killed by the blowgun every day.

Wielder Requirements
[typical wielders]

Itzcoatl Wielder Requirements
Craft (poison) 4 ranks
Reptilian subtype

Wielder Level Abilities
5th Handy Darts
6th Weakening Darts
7th Tranquiliser Dart
8th
9th +1 Seeking Sizing Greater Blowgun
10th Grappling Hook
11th
12th
13th
14th
15th
16th

Legacy Item Abilities
All the following are legacy item abilities of Itzcoatl.
Handy Darts (Su): From 5th level, Itzcoatl can conjure its own darts. If you spend a full-round action to pour poison into the blowgun, it can fire a number of darts equal to the number of doses of poison in a row without needing to reload. If you later pour more of a different type of poison in, it uses the last added poison first.
Weakening Darts (Sp): 5 times per day you can fire a dart coated in a poison that deals 1d6+1/3 levels Str damage. Fort DC 14 or 10+1/2 your HD + your Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher.
Tranquiliser Darts (Sp): Once a day you can fire a dart coated in a poison that puts the target to sleep. Will DC 14 or 10+1/2 your HD + your Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher. It lasts for 1d4 rounds.
Grappling Hook (Su): 3 times a day, Itzcoatl can fire a sharpened grappling hook. It uses your attack roll instead of Use Rope, and has a range of 40ft. It can also be used as a harpoon (Stormwrack p. 107) with the same enhancements as the blowgun. If the target has natural armour, it can hold your weight (i.e. if you harpoon a flying dragon, you can climb the rope up to it).

I'm also considering giving it a sort of "mode" ability. I'm thinking putting it in a "mode" will last as long as the wielder wants, but can only be done once a day. These modes would give them abilities specifically against creatures that are nomally immune to poisons. For example:

Undead Mode: If you succeed on a ranged attack against an undead creature, you deal an additional 2d6 positive energy damage. In addition, while this mode is active you can turn undead as a Cleric of your level.
Construct Mode: In this mode, Itzcoatl can spit gobs of a supernaturally corrosive substance that disrupts the physical and magical workings of constructs. By succeeding on a ranged touch attack against a construct, you deal 2d6 untyped damage which bypasses hardness and damage reduction. In addition, the construct must make a Fortitude save (DC 16 or 12+1/2 your HD + your Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher) or take 1d6 Dexterity damage as the substance eats into its workings.
Ooze Mode: Itzcoatl starts firing long, sharp, explosive barbs specifically designed to mess up oozes from the inside. The barbs deal an extra 2d4 and wounding damage to oozes. If the attack deals damage, the barb sinks deep into the ooze. A moment later it explodes, dealing 1d8/2 HD untyped damage to the ooze.
Elemental Mode: ????
Plant Mode: Itzcoatl's darts carry a potent herbicide. This plant-specific poison deals 1d4 Con/1d4 Con damage, Fortitude save DC 16 or 12+1/2 your HD + your Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher. In addition, while this mode is active you are surrounded by a 10ft radius miasma which is highly unpleasant to plants and plant creatures, acting as an antiplant shell.

Does this seem okay? Anything else I could add to the item, and any other ideas for ways I can make this character more consistently useful?

[NeoSeraphi]

What's the duration on that poisonous sleep effect?

I would say add poison to the ranger spell list (2nd level spell), since he really gives up a ton of delicious druid poison spells. (Quillfire, poison, the one that turns your arm into a poisonous snake, and a few others)

To really make poison attractive, I would say you should offer him another way to alter his poisons. Double cost, decrease DC by 5, but the damage the poison deals is turned to drain instead. This is extremely useful for NPCs with low saves that you want to keep alive, but frail and powerless so they'll obey you or rely on you more. (And thus pay you more)

Additionally, you should let him have a powerful serpent as his animal companion, if you haven't already, and let him harvest that creature's poison without making a check, or allowing him to make a Handle Animal/Wild Empathy check instead of the normal Survival check if he wishes.

Perhaps give him a feat that lets him apply his Favored Enemy bonus to the DC of poisons he uses against his Favored Enemies?

[Serpentine]

He actually does have a snake. Seems like it's not especially powerful, though.

Would it be gamebreaking if I just said "every spell that involves poison and/or has a snake focus/component is added to your spell list"?

I like the idea of him being able to add his favoured enemy bonus to his poisons. Would a feat be necessary?

[NeoSeraphi]

You would have to rearrange those spells quite a bit, as they're spread neatly through the druid's spell list between 2nd and 8th level, iirc. It's not game-breaking, but it requires work.

I would also give the ranger a full caster level (instead of 1/2 level as caster level) when he casts summon nature's ally to summon a venomous creature.

In order to improve the snake, you should grant him the ability to choose, at every level that the creature's Str/Dex would increase, to increase its Con by 2 instead (thus increasing both its survivability, and the save DC for its poison attack) or simply increase Str/Dex by 1 as normal.

Perhaps also grant the ranger the ability to wildshape into serpents (as part of his lizard heritage) starting at level 5. Normal progression with the smaller and larger sizes and HD limits, but letting the ranger use his HD instead of the serpent's for calculating the DC of his poison attacks. Since the ability is so limited, change the duration to instantaneous and the times per day to at-will, as the Shapechanger druid variant.

Finally, grant the Legacy Weapon the ability to deliver poisonous touch spells through its darts at some level.

Edit: Favored Enemy to poison DCs- It's not necessary to have it require a feat, but if you didn't, I would suggest trading the bonus to damage rolls for the bonus to DC...seems fair to me.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

It's not the mot effective, but he could try UMDing a bunch of Wu Jen/Druid spell casting items that do poison (Cobra's Breath, Kiss of the Toad, etc...)

[Serpentine]

Oh, I should've mentioned, we're at level 13, but gonna level up soonish.

I might get some more ideas and then just link him to this thread to pick out what he wants to do.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe that just saying "the poison effects even creatures immune to it" would work, considering that the dread witch does the same for fear effects. Just make it only work on a few poison attempts a day so they can't just stack 12 poisons on an arrow.

[Serpentine]

Any more thoughts? Say, on the legacy weapon?

[Amphetryon]

Are you familiar with Akal Saris' Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)?

[Serpentine]

No I was not. That looks really handy, thanks, I'll make sure I draw his attention to it.

[Rising Phoenix]

G'day Serp,

How about using the PF rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions) on poisons?

[Serpentine]

Can you give me a summary of how it's different? I can't pick out the differences just from a quick look.

He's looking at this thread, by the way. The poison handbook has put him off it somewhat, with its disclaimer against having poison-focussed characters. He likes the look of swapping Favoured Enemy from damage to poison DC, but he's worried about the scaling of the DCs. I've suggested that his blowgun could have an ability to increase DCs as he increases in level.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is also the assassination weapon enhancement which allows to add the weapon enhancement bonus to the DC of a poison delivered through the weapon.

[gkathellar]

He can always use Serpentfire, which gives a massive damage bonus to natural attacks for creatures that produce their own poison. At the very least he can cast it on his animal companion. It's a 3rd-level spell, but that'll come in much earlier if he switches over to the Mystic Ranger variant.

If he's still missing his druid, you could give him the middleground and let him play a Mystic Ranger with the Wildshape variant.

[Rising Phoenix]

Can you give me a summary of how it's different? I can't pick out the differences just from a quick look.

He's looking at this thread, by the way. The poison handbook has put him off it somewhat, with its disclaimer against having poison-focussed characters. He likes the look of swapping Favoured Enemy from damage to poison DC, but he's worried about the scaling of the DCs. I've suggested that his blowgun could have an ability to increase DCs as he increases in level.

Check the box after the table:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison

The main difference is that:


If you are exposed to more of the same poison at any point while you are poisoned, you need to make a new initial save at +2 DC.

So the DC stacks with itself...If you can unload multiple doses (TWF, Archery) quickly than the DC could end up to be nasty.

Of course the character still has to fail a save for the doses to stack...

[Tvtyrant]

My critique of the modes: They are quite interesting, but 2d6 is a rather small damage modifier. Can I suggest that it is 2d6 per round for x number of rounds after the attack, so it pretends to be a HP poison? Over time damage tends to be rather weak, but its a boost that won't break the game or be overpowering.

[hex0]

Pro tip: If you have a Con based natural poison attack, play a Barbarian.

[Kol Korran]

hey Serpentine. in my campaign i also had a poisondusk lizardfolk who specialized in poisons (though he was a swordsage). we found out that the three main problems were :
- obtaining poisons, especially high level ones.
- Poisons DCs
- the rediculously slow rate of crafting poisons byt the CoAd rules.

solutions:
- for the first we basically made the character associated wit hthe house of Shadow in Eberron, who dealt with poisons. plus, the character could harvest "ingredients".

the rest are covered by our house rules:
i've read the rules, and we'll try the following:

- buying metrials: always a 1/3 of the market price.

- you can't buy the materials for the following poisons: Dragon bile, purple worm, Wyvern. you can but wyvern poison itself, but not the other two. (i didn't want him to go crazy at the levels he played, but you can of course allow it. it seemed to me these poisons were quite... rare.

- crafting poison: you roll for the poison's DC to create (different from the DC to resist!) if you reach the DC, you create 1/4 of the poison, for every 5 above it, you create 1/4 more. that way- it should take you on average 3-4 days to create a poison fairly reasonably. if you fail by less then 4- no progress, but no harm. if you fail by 5 or more- you ruin half the matrials for the poison. notice that the cost of the posion doesn't matter in this! i hope this is a simple enough method, that would speed things up a bit.

- the following skills can be used in sinergy: Knowledge nature, alchemy and heal. (for up to +6)

- extracting poison from other sources: you make a craft check against the average between the resistance and crafting DC (i will tell you in advance every time). upon success you get enough material for 1d3 doses. every 5 checks above, you gain enough for 1d3 doses more (up to 3d3 doses alltogether)

- there may be some special poisons or creatures in the campaign, you'll see.

- you can create or buy poisons with A higher DC. each addition of 2 to the DC adds 5 to the craft DC. the cost goes up by 1/3 for each 2 to the DC. you can only buy poisons with up to +6 to the DC (costing double), and craft poisons with up to +10 to the DC ( for extra 25 to the craft check)

you can of course alter and change these rules, but they might make a decent start? they served us VERY well.

[Amphetryon]

Plant-based poisons are potentially very easy to replicate with low-level magic. Once again, Magic Does Everything Better (tm).

[hex0]

Plant-based poisons are potentially very easy to replicate with low-level magic. Once again, Magic Does Everything Better (tm).

Minor Creation and Improved Familiar, yes?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually I think this is one of the rare cases were Psionics does it better!!

With Cha 11 you can take Hidden Talent ( Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm)) and manifest it twice a day, I am sure one cubic foot of Black Lotus extract would work quite nicely. Add the wondrous location from CPsi (costss 4,500 GP IIRC) for 5 extra PP.

[Amphetryon]

Actually I think this is one of the rare cases were Psionics does it better!!

With Cha 11 you can take Hidden Talent ( Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm)) and manifest it twice a day, I am sure one cubic foot of Black Lotus extract would work quite nicely. Add the wondrous location from CPsi (costss 4,500 GP IIRC) for 5 extra PP.

Psionics are magic with a different flavor. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

But minor creation is a 4th level spell and PMC is a 1st level power which you can get trough feats, so it is clearly superior!!!

Though yeah, in the end psionics is just another form of magic

[Serpentine]

hey Serpentine. in my campaign i also had a poisondusk lizardfolk who specialized in poisons (though he was a swordsage). we found out that the three main problems were :
- obtaining poisons, especially high level ones.
- Poisons DCs
- the rediculously slow rate of crafting poisons byt the CoAd rules.

solutions:
- for the first we basically made the character associated wit hthe house of Shadow in Eberron, who dealt with poisons. plus, the character could harvest "ingredients".

the rest are covered by our house rules:
i've read the rules, and we'll try the following:

- buying metrials: always a 1/3 of the market price.

- you can't buy the materials for the following poisons: Dragon bile, purple worm, Wyvern. you can but wyvern poison itself, but not the other two. (i didn't want him to go crazy at the levels he played, but you can of course allow it. it seemed to me these poisons were quite... rare.

- crafting poison: you roll for the poison's DC to create (different from the DC to resist!) if you reach the DC, you create 1/4 of the poison, for every 5 above it, you create 1/4 more. that way- it should take you on average 3-4 days to create a poison fairly reasonably. if you fail by less then 4- no progress, but no harm. if you fail by 5 or more- you ruin half the matrials for the poison. notice that the cost of the posion doesn't matter in this! i hope this is a simple enough method, that would speed things up a bit.

- the following skills can be used in sinergy: Knowledge nature, alchemy and heal. (for up to +6)

- extracting poison from other sources: you make a craft check against the average between the resistance and crafting DC (i will tell you in advance every time). upon success you get enough material for 1d3 doses. every 5 checks above, you gain enough for 1d3 doses more (up to 3d3 doses alltogether)

- there may be some special poisons or creatures in the campaign, you'll see.

- you can create or buy poisons with A higher DC. each addition of 2 to the DC adds 5 to the craft DC. the cost goes up by 1/3 for each 2 to the DC. you can only buy poisons with up to +6 to the DC (costing double), and craft poisons with up to +10 to the DC ( for extra 25 to the craft check)

you can of course alter and change these rules, but they might make a decent start? they served us VERY well.Those look like the sort of houserules I'd be fine with including. But I don't really have any intention of making it hard for him to get poisons - though it might be a bit trickier when we get back to "civilisation" - and, to be honest, I don't really know the rules for poison-making so he'd probably get away with doing all that anyway :smalltongue:


Tvtyrant: seems reasonable. I'm always paranoid about making things too powerful...

[hex0]

Actually I think this is one of the rare cases were Psionics does it better!!

With Cha 11 you can take Hidden Talent ( Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm)) and manifest it twice a day, I am sure one cubic foot of Black Lotus extract would work quite nicely. Add the wondrous location from CPsi (costss 4,500 GP IIRC) for 5 extra PP.

It is seriously that easy?

[Serpentine]

IIRC, the Poisons Handbook mentioned being able to make 30,000 doses of black lotus poisons at low levels. I think that was for Minor Creation, and it was pointed out elsewhere that it's possible to get the psionic equivalent at first level.

[hex0]

IIRC, the Poisons Handbook mentioned being able to make 30,000 doses of black lotus poisons at low levels. I think that was for Minor Creation, and it was pointed out elsewhere that it's possible to get the psionic equivalent at first level.

how is that not broken? It is a bit hard to get poison use early,?

[Serpentine]

Dunno. I've never been a good judge of balance.

[hex0]

Actually I think this is one of the rare cases were Psionics does it better!!

With Cha 11 you can take Hidden Talent ( Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm)) and manifest it twice a day, I am sure one cubic foot of Black Lotus extract would work quite nicely. Add the wondrous location from CPsi (costss 4,500 GP IIRC) for 5 extra PP.

You would have to be as psion (shaper though to have it at first). Expanded Knowledge gets it at 3 though for psionic rogue. wow.

[Gavinfoxx]

And the Hidden Talent bypasses the Shaper requirement. You DO need to be in a high psionics campaign though, or have a permissive DM!

[Cieyrin]

And the Hidden Talent bypasses the Shaper requirement. You DO need to be in a high psionics campaign though, or have a permissive DM!

Bah, that's just WotC paranoia on balance and their lack of forethought thereof. I would think that if a DM is permissive of psionics, they should be fine with Hidden Talent, especially given WotC changed its mind in CPsi with a number of psionic organizations that are essentially powered by Hidden Talent.

On a different topic, I'm kinda confused why the ranger needs Sizing on that blowgun. Does he change size that often for it to matter, via Steal Size or some such? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

You could also do an Ophiduan (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/ophiduan) Psywar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) Aside from the snaky look, Wis+Dex synergy and poison resistance, you can then add on Psionic Minor Creation (via Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge) for the black lotus, then grab some complementary paths - Assassin, Brawler, even the Archer's path from Psionics Expanded if you have access to it.

[Serpentine]

On a different topic, I'm kinda confused why the ranger needs Sizing on that blowgun. Does he change size that often for it to matter, via Steal Size or some such? :smallconfused:Can't remember my original reasoning. I think it was more or less just a practical freebie bonus with mostly thematic relevance - so, for instance, both kobolds and lizardfolk can use it.

[Zaq]

Regarding "OMG Psionic Minor Creation can make a cubic foot of black lotus extract at level 1 WTFHAX"—do recall that PMC requires you to make a Craft check with the appropriate DC. If you can pull off a DC 35 Craft check, sure, you can make BLE, but good luck getting a +25 to Craft at level 1 (I'm assuming you can take 10, but I forget if you actually can). You CAN get yourself BLE probably well before you normally could, but you do have to work at it and invest in it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Regarding "OMG Psionic Minor Creation can make a cubic foot of black lotus extract at level 1 WTFHAX"—do recall that PMC requires you to make a Craft check with the appropriate DC. If you can pull off a DC 35 Craft check, sure, you can make BLE, but good luck getting a +25 to Craft at level 1 (I'm assuming you can take 10, but I forget if you actually can). You CAN get yourself BLE probably well before you normally could, but you do have to work at it and invest in it.

Skill Focus: Craft, masterwork item, having an ally cleric cast wieldskill on you for a +10 bonus, +2 from average Int for a ranger, 4 ranks, +1 Specialized character trait

That's a +22 bonus right there, at level 1. If you were really optimizing for this, you'd put an 18 into Int, so that's +24. Play a grey elf and get +25, and you can take 10 at level 1. (All of this requires a highly specialized build and a flaw so that you can have both Skill Focus and Hidden Talent, but for Black Lotus Extract at level 1, I wouldn't say no)

[Zaq]

Skill Focus: Craft, masterwork item, having an ally cleric cast wieldskill on you for a +10 bonus, +2 from average Int for a ranger, 4 ranks, +1 Specialized character trait

That's a +22 bonus right there, at level 1. If you were really optimizing for this, you'd put an 18 into Int, so that's +24. Play a grey elf and get +25, and you can take 10 at level 1. (All of this requires a highly specialized build and a flaw so that you can have both Skill Focus and Hidden Talent, but for Black Lotus Extract at level 1, I wouldn't say no)

My point is that you HAVE to do something like that. Some folks who don't look into this sort of thing just see "PMC = BLE, OMG" and leave it at that, but unless you're pulling out the kind of tricks you outlined there, it's not quite as simple as that.

Not saying that it's not possible, sure. Just saying that it takes investment.

[NeoSeraphi]

My point is that you HAVE to do something like that. Some folks who don't look into this sort of thing just see "PMC = BLE, OMG" and leave it at that, but unless you're pulling out the kind of tricks you outlined there, it's not quite as simple as that.

Not saying that it's not possible, sure. Just saying that it takes investment.

Oh I agree. I just took your post as a challenge, sorry. :smallbiggrin:

Still, getting a +25 bonus to a skill at level 1...that wieldskill spell is just unfair.

[Zaq]

Oh I agree. I just took your post as a challenge, sorry. :smallbiggrin:

Still, getting a +25 bonus to a skill at level 1...that wieldskill spell is just unfair.

No argument here. The fact that you have to get a buddy to cast it for you makes me wonder if it even counts, since if we're assuming you have the whole party chipping in, we can get much sillier results, even through just Aid Another.

Magecraft (ECS) is a 1st level Wizard spell that gives a +5 competence bonus, if we want this on an INT-based character . . . but we probably shouldn't go down this road, since the point was that it's NOT just an automatic source of low-level BLE. Damn the urge to optimize to meet any challenge we present ourselves! :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

No argument here. The fact that you have to get a buddy to cast it for you makes me wonder if it even counts, since if we're assuming you have the whole party chipping in, we can get much sillier results, even through just Aid Another.

Magecraft (ECS) is a 1st level Wizard spell that gives a +5 competence bonus, if we want this on an INT-based character . . . but we probably shouldn't go down this road, since the point was that it's NOT just an automatic source of low-level BLE. Damn the urge to optimize to meet any challenge we present ourselves! :smalltongue:

I knew about magecraft, but I didn't use it because I assumed this was a 1st level ranger and magecraft has a range of personal.

Let's see...at 2nd level, a cleric 1/wizard 1 with 20 Int, 5 ranks, Specialized, Skill Focus (Craft), a masterwork item, casting magecraft and wieldskill on himself, and having an ally use the Aid Another ability would succeed the required DC 35 check on a natural 2.

Optimization. Because we can. :smallcool:

[Zaq]

I knew about magecraft, but I didn't use it because I assumed this was a 1st level ranger and magecraft has a range of personal.

Let's see...at 2nd level, a cleric 1/wizard 1 with 20 Int, 5 ranks, Specialized, Skill Focus (Craft), a masterwork item, casting magecraft and wieldskill on himself, and having an ally their familiar use the Aid Another ability would succeed the required DC 35 check on a natural 2.

Optimization. Because we can. :smallcool:

Fixed that for you. When you're a full caster, you are the party.

[Cieyrin]

I knew about magecraft, but I didn't use it because I assumed this was a 1st level ranger and magecraft has a range of personal.

Sword of the Arcane Order can fix that fairly easily. :smallwink:

[AmberVael]

One of my players is playing a poisondusk lizardfolk Ranger who specialises in poisons. We have discovered that the thing about poisons is that they're either completely useless or encounter-ending, without much in-between...

If this is the case, then looking for better poisons (or more poisons) really isn't the answer. In order to be more broadly effective, the character does not need better poison, but more options.

As the poison theme has been established, however, and that does seem like a cool route to go (albeit one that is somewhat ineffective under normal circumstances), I do not wish to suggest abandoning poisons or even just adding other specializations to it- but rather, finding new options within a poison based theme.

Here are some of my thoughts.

What can poisons already do? Poisons as defined by D&D are a very narrow set of abilities. All of them utilize the saving throw mechanic, and what is more, all of those I know of target the Fortitude save.
They also deal ability damage (rarely drain) and sometimes induce unconsciousness. In sum, their capabilities and methods of targeting are as pretty much as limited as the stereotypical fighter's hack and slash, but also are limited by funds. This does seem like it would make the character pretty situational, and so a good route to take would be one that lets the character pursue other avenues while remaining true to the theme.

This in mind, think of how other games have portrayed and implemented poisons, or what they can do in real life, and perhaps expand them in a slightly more supernatural manner, and compare this to where the character has problems. Presumably against people with high saves, or high fortitude saves- or that have some resistance against ability damage. So take ideas on how to deal with that.

Perhaps you could make an ability to deal straight up damage with poisons- Venomfire is a spell that allows that, albeit one that is largely regarded as broken (so instead of using it directly, perhaps change it a little, or use a similar idea? Acid damage is not a bad thought, after all). With straight damage, you get an option that, while perhaps not as potent, is much harder to resist, particularly if it is acid damage.

But what if you need to provoke another save? Well, why not some kind of neurotoxin? Perhaps you might make something that works like Confusion? Paralysis and Sleep are other options to consider. It's a little bit of a stretch to make it a will save, but not by much, and it would broaden capabilities a little bit more, both by increasing the character's potential to attack by slightly different means, and inflict different kinds of effects.

I might also suggest making a method to shift between the different types of poison- that is, contact, injury, ingestion, and inhalation. Allowing some limited capacity to work with how to inflict a poison in this way could open up a lot of fun possibilities, and allow the character to do a lot more than just using poisons by attacking people.

These are just suggestions off the top of my head though, and without deep consideration of the matter. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Serpentine]

I do like the idea of having some sort of Will save-based poison type things he could acquire. What sort of price should I be looking at for those?

[AmberVael]

As unhelpful it might be, I'm not sure putting a price on these options is the way to go, even if that does jar a bit with the poison system already in place. Resting your abilities fully on something you must buy has never sat well with me.

Instead, I might suggest a series of feats, skill tricks, or even just more permanent additions to his inventory. Hidden Talent to pick up Minor Creation was suggested earlier, and that wasn't such a bad idea (even if it might have some balance issues), or perhaps an item that might replicate such capabilities a few times per day (like a flask or weapon enchantment with per day charges to create poison). Spells are a decent choice, or perhaps even alternate class abilities.

I admit though that I have a certain amount of distaste for consumable items, which may flavor my response, but at the same time I feel that there is something to be said for allowing his character more options from the base of his build rather than his accessories.

At this point, I would give you a pricing anyway if I could, but I almost never use poisons, and generally I believe they're overpriced anyway, so I cannot truthfully give an accurate value for such a thing.

[NeoSeraphi]

Suggestions:

Virulent Favored Enemy (Ex): A lizardfolk ranger who chooses to focus on his natural venomous strategy is able to implement it much better against creatures he despises and studies, though his sword strikes no true-r against such a being. A lizardfolk ranger who selects this racial substitution receives his Favored Enemy bonus to the DC of poisons he employs against his Favored Enemies.

A lizardfolk ranger who selects this racial substitution level does not receive his Favored Enemy bonus to damage rolls against his Favored Enemies. He still receives his Favored Enemy bonus to the listed skill checks made against his Favored Enemies.

This racial substitution level replaces the Favored Enemy class feature. Any time the lizardfolk would receive Favored Enemy after 1st level, he gains another Virulent Favored Enemy instead.


Venomous Spellcasting: A serpent ranger's deadly venoms prevent most characters from even taking a breath. A lizardfolk ranger who takes this racial substitution level adds the following spells to the ranger spell list- poison, venomfire, quill blast, and superior poison*.

Additionally, when casting the spells listed above, as well as any summon nature's ally spell that the ranger uses to call forth a creature(s) with a natural poison ability, the ranger's caster level is equal to his ranger level instead of one-half his ranger level.

*New spell, described below.


Superior Poison
Necromancy [Poison][Evil]
Ranger 2
Components: V, S, F
Target: One dose of poison, +1 per four caster levels (Max 5 at CL 16)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
SR: No

Chanting the forbidden words of the hunter, you raise the poison over your head, and infuse it with divine magic, making the poison itself a magical substance.

When you cast this spell, the poison you hold changes its substance and becomes a supernatural effect. Its primary and secondary effects remain unchanged, but its saving throw is changed to Will Negates, DC 10+1/2 your Caster Level + your Wisdom modifier, regardless of what creature actually created the poison.

Additionally, this poison is treated as a spell effect with the [evil] descriptor instead of a poison. (For example, if you were to shoot an astral deva with a superior poison-tipped arrow, it would not receive its +4 racial bonus against poison on the saving throw, as it is no longer a poison, but shooting a dwarf with the same arrow would not change, as the dwarf would still receive its +2 racial bonus on saves against spells)

Superior poison allows the poison to ignore immunity to poisons. The poison itself, though treated as a spell, ignores spell resistance, but is suppressed inside an anti-magic field and destroyed by disjunction as normal. A vial of superior poison may be suppressed due to a dispel magic effect, in which case it will recover its virility after 1 round per caster level of the caster who dispelled it.

Focus: The poison to be affected by the spell

[Fax Celestis]

Can you give me a summary of how it's different? I can't pick out the differences just from a quick look.

He's looking at this thread, by the way. The poison handbook has put him off it somewhat, with its disclaimer against having poison-focussed characters. He likes the look of swapping Favoured Enemy from damage to poison DC, but he's worried about the scaling of the DCs. I've suggested that his blowgun could have an ability to increase DCs as he increases in level.

Let him apply his FE bonus as a DC bonus when its applicable, and if he has a FE for a target normally immune he doesn't get the DC bonus but they can still be affected. Charge him a feat.

Also make sure he has Poison Expert from Complete Scoundrel. Its basically Ability Focus (Poisons).

One of my favorite poisons at lower levels is Salvo from CScn. Damage to a random ability stat for a surprisingly low price is terrific for multiple applications.

I think there are some poison feats in Drow of the Underdark too. Like most of that book's feats, they're likely pretty solid.

[Zaq]

Suggestions:

Virile Favored Enemy (Ex): A lizardfolk ranger who chooses to focus on his natural venomous strategy is able to implement it much better against creatures he despises and studies, though his sword strikes no true-r against such a being. A lizardfolk ranger who selects this racial substitution receives his Favored Enemy bonus to the DC of poisons he employs against his Favored Enemies.

A lizardfolk ranger who selects this racial substitution level does not receive his Favored Enemy bonus to damage rolls against his Favored Enemies. He still receives his Favored Enemy bonus to the listed skill checks made against his Favored Enemies.

This racial substitution level replaces the Favored Enemy class feature. Any time the lizardfolk would receive Favored Enemy after 1st level, he gains another Virile Favored Enemy instead.



I don't think that word (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virile) means what you think it means. (You might have meant something else (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virulent?show=0&t=1317618551).)

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't think that word (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virile) means what you think it means. (You might have meant something else (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virulent?show=0&t=1317618551).)

My bad! Edited.

What do you think of superior poison?

[Serpentine]

Vael: What if I have him a bunch of darts, and/or the blowgun the ability, and/or something else that lets one of the many spellcasters in the party (including himself) cast a spell on the darts/blowgun, and lets him fire it later?
So, for example, the party Warlock has a staff that can cast Confusion. He casts it on the blowgun or a pile of these darts, and now he can shoot enemies with Confusion - undecided whether it being an attack roll and a save would just be the cost of having that option, or whether he'd get to raise the DC or something to make up for it, or make it a ranged touch or something.

NeoSeraphi: I'll definitely point those out to him. What class features will those replace, though?

[NeoSeraphi]

NeoSeraphi: I'll definitely point those out to him. What class features will those replace, though?

They aren't ACFs, they're racial substitution levels. The Virulent Favored Enemy class feature replaces the Favored Enemy class feature, and the Poisonous Spellcasting augments, but does not replace, the ranger's normal spellcasting ability.

[Cieyrin]

I think there are some poison feats in Drow of the Underdark too. Like most of that book's feats, they're likely pretty solid.

Like the 1d38 poison? :smallwink:
Yay typos! XD