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TheRinni
2011-09-29, 08:07 AM
I have the rough outline of a character – and I just can’t get her out of my head. She’s an assassin who specializes in sleeping spells. She is known as Sleeping Beauty, and is heavily inspired from Jim C. Hine’s rendition of the princess.

Either Bard or Sorcerer would be a natural class choice for this character, but I’m having trouble deciding between the two. The Sleep Domain is also a possibility - but I have trouble envisioning this character as a Cleric. Heartwarder and Assassin are the PrCs I’m looking at. Edit: Sublime Chord is the newest PrC I'm investigating.

Build #1
This build is Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 10:
{table=head] Class Features | Feats | Spells Per Day | Spells Known
{table=head]Level | Class | Special Abilities | BAB | Fort | Refl | Will
1st | Bard |Music/Knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage | +0 | +0 |+2 | +2
2nd | Bard | - |+1 | +0 |+3 | +3
3rd | Bard | Inspire competence | +2 | +1 |+3 | +3
4th | Bard | - | +3 | +2 |+4 | +4
5th | Sorcerer | Summon Familiar | +3 | +2 | +4 | +6
6th | Sorcerer | - | +4 | +2 | +4 | +7
7th | Sorcerer | - | +4 | +3 | +5 | +7
8th | Sorcerer | - | +5 | +3 | +5 | +8
9th | Sorcerer | - | +5 | +3 | +5 | +8
10th | Sorcerer| - | +6 | +4 | +6 | +9
11th | Sublime Chord | Bardic lore, bardic music | +6 | +4 | +6 | +11
12th | Sublime Chord | Song of Arcane Power |+7 | +4 | +6 | +12
13th | Sublime Chord | - | +7 | +5 | +7 | +13
14th | Sublime Chord | - | +8 | +5 | +7 | +14
15th | Sublime Chord | - | +8 | +5 | +7 | +14
16th | Sublime Chord | Song of Timelessness | +9 | +6 | +8 | +15
17th | Sublime Chord | - | +9 | +6 | +8 | +15
18th | Sublime Chord | Song of Cosmic Fire | +10 | +6 | +8 | +16
19th | Sublime Chord | - | +10 | +6 | +8 | +16
20th | Sublime Chord | - | +11 | +6 | +8 | +17

[/table] | {table=head] Feats
Feat 1
--
Feat 3
--
--
Feat 6
--
--
Feat 9
--
--
Feat 12
--
--
Feat 15
--
--
Feat 18
--
--

[/table] | {table=head]0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
2
3 | 0
3 | 1
3 | 2 |
8 | 5 |
9 | 6 |
9 | 7 |
9 | 8 | 3
9 | 8 | 4
9 | 8 | 5 | 3
9 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1
9 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 2
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
9 | 8 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
[/table] | {table=head]0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
4
5 | 2
6 | 3
6 | 3 | 2
11 | 6 | 2
12 | 7 | 2
12 | 8 | 2
12 | 9 | 5
12 | 9 | 6
12 | 9 | 7 | 3
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 3 | 1
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 2
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 1
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 2
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
12 | 9 | 7 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table][/table]
**I've left the Feats blank because I haven't quite figured out what I want to do with them.
** This table took AGES to make. Admire its beauty. ADMIRE IT.
{table=head]Spell Level | Bard Spells Known
0 | Lullaby, Message, Light, Presidigitation, Read Magic, Ghost Sound
1 | Sleep, Disguise Self, Nightmare Lullaby ------------------------------------
2 | Cure Moderate Wounds, Suggestion
[/table]
{table=head]Spell Level | Sorcerer Spells Known
0 | Mage Hand, Mending, Arcane Mark, Open/Close, Detect Poison, Detect Magic
1 | Shield, Unseen Servant, Charm Person, Mage Armor, True Strike, Identify
2 | Glitterdust, Touch of Idiocy, Mirror Image, Minior Image, Hypnotic Pattern
3 | Major Image, Deep Slumber, Hold Person [/table]
{table=head]Spell Level | Sublime Chord Spells Known
4 | Cure Critical Wounds, Hallucinatory Terrain, Modify Memory, Crushing Despair
5 | Symbol of Sleep, Dream, Nightmare, Suggestion Mass
6 | Irresistible Dance, Veil, Dream Casting, Symphonic Nightmare
7 | Plane Shift, Insanity, Hiss of Sleep, Ethreal Jaunt
8 | Scintillating Pattern, Shout Greater, Symbol of Insanity
9 | Dominate Monster, Weird [/table]

I like it, but the combat prowess is a little sub-par for an Assassin-type. I'm considering doping the Sorcerer and Sublime Chord levels completely in favor of a Bard/Rogue character.

Build #2
This build is Rogue 3/Bard 7/Arcane Trickster 10. It gives me the Spells of a 17th Level bard, and 7d6 Sneak Attack Damage - which is pretty nice.

{table=head] Class Features | Feats | Spells Per Day | Spells Known
{table=head]Level | Class | Special Abilities | BAB | Fort | Refl | Will
1st | Rogue |Sneak Attack 1d6, trapfinding | +0 | +0 |+2 | +0
2nd | Rogue | Evasion |+1 | +0 |+3 | +0
3rd | Rogue | Sneak Attack 2d6, trap sense +1 | +2 | +1 |+3 | +1
4th | Bard | Bardic Music/Knowledge, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire courage | +2 | +1 |+5 | +3
5th | Bard | - | +3 | +2 | +6 | +4
6th | Bard | Inspire competence | +4 | +2 | +7 | +5
7th | Bard | - | +5 | +2 | +8 | +6
8th | Bard | - | +5 | +2 | +8 | +6
9th | Bard | Suggestion | +6 | +3 | +9 | +7
10th | Bard| - | +6 | +3 | +9 | +7
11th | Arcane Trickster | Ranged legerdemain 1/day | +6 | +3 | +11 | +9
12th | Arcane Trickster | Sneak Attack 3d6 | +7 | +3 | +12 | +10
13th | Arcane Trickster | Impromptu Sneak attack 1/day | +7 | +4 | +12 | +10
14th | Arcane Trickster | Sneak Attack 4d6 | +8 | +4 | +13 | +11
15th | Arcane Trickster | Ranged legerdemain 2/day | +8 | +4 | +13 | +11
16th | Arcane Trickster | Sneak Attack 5d6 | +9 | +5 | +14 | +12
17th | Arcane Trickster | Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day | +9 | +5 | +14 | +12
18th | Arcane Trickster | Sneak Attack 6d6 | +10 | +5 | +15 | +13
19th | Arcane Trickster | Ranged legerdemain 3/day | +10 | +6 | +15 | +13
20th | Arcane Trickster | Sneak Attack 7d6 | +11 | +5 | +16 | +14
[/table] | {table=head] Feats
Feat 1
--
Feat 3
--
--
Feat 6
--
--
Feat 9
--
--
Feat 12
--
--
Feat 15
--
--
Feat 18
--
--

[/table] | {table=head]0|1|2|3|4|5|6
0
0
0
2
3 | 0
3 | 1
3 | 2 | 0
3 | 3 | 1
3 | 3 | 2
3 | 3 | 2 | 0
3 | 3 | 3 | 1
3 | 3 | 3 | 2
3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0
4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1
4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0
4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1
[/table] | {table=head]0|1|2|3|4|5|6
0
0
0
4
5 | 2
6 | 3
6 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 3 | 2
6 | 4 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 |
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3
6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 |
6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2
6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3
[/table][/table]
[hr]
Other Ideas:
Here are some items I’d like to incorporate. There are, however, two reoccurring problems I’ve noticed:
1. Most of them have very low Saves – how can I raise these?
2. Many of them affect everyone within a large area – how do you suggest keeping my party from falling asleep on me?


Dreaming Blindfold
Price: 7,500 gp
This black silk blindfold is embroidered with mystical symbols done in silver thread. While wearing a dreaming blindfold, you are effectively blinded, but you can send a useful or terrible dream to a sleeping creature. Once per day, the blindfold can
produce either one of two effects (but not both in the same day):
Dream: You send a phantasmal message to a specific known living creature. This effect functions as the dream spell, except that the range is 100 miles and you can't deliver the dream through a messenger.
Nightmare: You send a hideous phantasmal vision to a specific known living creature. This effect functions as the nightmare spell, except that the range is 100 miles. If you are also wearing a psicrown (EPH 169), you can target the recipient of the dream or nightmare with a single psionic
power generated by the psicrown as if you were adjacent to that creature. However, the power costs twice the normal number of power points and renders the dreaming blindfold inert for seven days.
I'm absolutely in love with this item.


Aroma of Dreams
Price: 1,500 gp
One round after you apply this elixir to your skin, it creates an invisible cloud of gas in a 10-foot radius that moves with you and persists for 5 rounds. You are immune to the cloud's effects, but each round at the end of your turn every other creature in the area with 10 Hit Dice or fewer must make a successful DC 14 Fortitude save or fall asleep for 1 minute. Furthermore, each creature remaining in the area 1 round
later (whether already asleep or not) must make a second successful DC 14 Fortitude save or fall asleep for 1 hour. Creatures with more than 10 Hit Dice are immune to the effect. If you open the bottle but do not imme* diately apply the liquid, the cloud of gas spreads to fill a 5-foot-radius area, centered
on the opened bottle or the place where the liquid was poured out. This cloud persists for 1 minute
A poisonous, gaseous oil seems like the perfect tool for an assassin. And the sleep effects fit perfectly with the character concept. Needless to say, I would love to incorporate this item. However, the save is a whopping 14.


Sleep Spike
Price: 3,500 gp
A sleeping spike becomes invisible 1 round after you plant it firmly in the ground. Thereafter, as soon as any creature comes within 10 feet of it, the spike emits a sleep effect (Will DC 17 negates) in a 20-footradius burst that affects all creatures with 10 Hit Dice or fewer. The spike is destroyed when the sleep effect is triggered. During the round that a sleeping spike remains visible after being planted, any creature can safely remove it from the ground (a standard action) to render it harmless and ready for reuse.
The save is a bit better for this item; though, still lower than I'd like for a one-use weapon. Still, it's pretty cool. The concept of jamming the spike in the ground for a quick getaway, while your enemies fall asleep, reminds me of something a Hollywood assassin would do.


Sleep Arrows
Price: 132
This +1 arrow is painted white and has white fletching. If it strikes a foe so that it would normally deal damage, it instead bursts into magical energy that deals nonlethal damage (in the same amount as would be lethal damage) and forces the target to make a DC 11 Will save or fall asleep.
The DC for this seems just too low to even bother with.
Here are a list of spells I’d like to incorporate into the build. As with the items, many of them have low saves, and low HD effectiveness. Are there anyways to increase these?


Sleep (obviously)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Duration: 1 min./level
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.
Seems useless beyond level 3.


Lullaby
Level: Brd 0
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Concentration + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Any creature within the area that fails a Will save becomes drowsy and inattentive, taking a -5 penalty on Listen and Spot checks and a -2 penalty on Will saves against sleep effects while the lullaby is in effect. Lullaby lasts for as long as the caster concentrates, plus up to 1 round per caster level thereafter.
This seems like an absolute MUST for my character. It's the only thing I've found to reduce the Will save against sleep effects.


Dawn
Level: Druid 0, ranger 1
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: 15 ft.
With a cry similar to a rooster’s you cast the spell. For a moment you feel as if you had just awakened from a comfortable nap, but as the feeling fades, those around you begin to stir. All sleeping creatures in the affected area awaken. Those who are unconscious because of nonlethal damage up and are staggered. This spell does not affect dying creatures.
Cool way to wake up anyone who might've accidentally been effected by my spells. But, I doubt I'm going to be taking a dip into Druid for access to a single spell.


Dream Casting
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time: 1 hour
Target: You and one dreamer
Duration: 24 hours/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
This spell functions like dream (PH 225), except as noted above and that you can alter the sleeping person’s dreams to produce a specific desired effect. The dreamer gets a Will saving throw to resist the additional effects of this spell; if the save succeeds, the dream casting spell can send only a message, in the manner of the dream spell. If the saving throw fails, you decide what additional effect the message carries.
Fear: Your image in the dream is surrounded by intimidating imagery and an aura of power. For the duration of the spell, any time the dreamer can see you or knows you are present, he is shaken. This is a compulsion and fear effect.
Charm: Your image in the dream appears particularly helpful and kind. For the duration of the spell, the dreamer is under the effect of a charm monster spell. This is a charm effect.
Rage: Your image in the dream taunts and harasses the dreamer. For the duration of the spell, any time the dreamer can see you or knows you are present, he preferentially attacks you if in a combat situation. The dreamer gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls when attacking you while under this effect. This is a compulsion effect.
Harrow: Your image in the dream behaves in a bizarre and irrational manner. For the duration of the spell, the dreamer behaves in an unusual manner, gaining two random traits from Table 4–24: One Hundred Traits (DMG 128), rerolling any results not pertinent to behavior. If the dreamer can see you or knows you are present, he is confused for 1 round/level.


Dream Sight
Level: Dream 6
Casting Time: 1 round
Target: You
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
In sleep your spirit rises to travel about and observe the world. You fall into a deep sleep while your spirit leaves your body invisibly in incorporeal form and travels to distant locations. Your spirit can move 100 feet per round, and can see and hear anything you could if you were in the same location. The spirit can be blocked by any spell that wards incorporeal creatures, and it can be detected and attacked in the same way as incorporeal creatures can. Your spirit can do nothing but move and observe—it cannot speak, attack, cast spells, or perform any other action. At the end of the spell, your spirit instantaneously returns to your body and you wake up. If your body is disturbed or attacked while your spirit is wandering, the spell ends immediately.
I love this spell. It's the perfect spell for an assassin to scout out a target - and it just fits the theme SO well! Sadly, it seems it's only available through the Dream Domain. My current plan of using Bard/Sorcerer just doesn't give me access to it.


Hiss of Sleep
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No
From your hiding place, you whisper the spell softly, your words taking on a sonorous drone. One by one, your foes drop to ground, asleep. The targets of this spell fall into a comatose slumber. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding the subjects awakens them, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action.


Nightmare Lullaby
Level: Bard 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Your music calms your foe, sending it to sleep while it remains upright. As you perform, it starts to twitch and moan, as if tormented by unseen fears. This spell can put a target into a surreal, sleepwalking state. The target must make a Will saving throw or become confused, thinking it has entered a nightmare.


Symphonic Nightmare
Level: Bard 6, cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch; see text
Target: Living creature touched;see text
Duration: 24 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A creature targeted by this spell loses the ability to dream during sleep or rest. Rather, in place of dreams, the subject’s slumbering mind is filled with the sounds of a discordant orchestra.
After the victim’s first attempt to sleep, it incurs a –2 penalty on Wisdom-based skill checks. This penalty persists as long as the symphonic nightmare maintains its hold. This spell affects all creatures that sleep or enter sleeplike trances, although creatures without the need to sleep are effectively immune.
In addition, the creature’s sleep is now haunted. It can no longer gain complete rest from sleeping or resting.
The subject does not regain hit points or heal ability damage naturally, nor is it able to prepare spells if doing so requires a full night’s rest. The creature is, however, now immune to the dream and nightmare spells, as well as to other effects that cause nightmares (such as the night hag’s dream haunting ability).
You can lift the effect of this curse at will, but it is otherwise difficult to remove a symphonic nightmare before its duration expires. A remove curse cast at a higher caster level than the symphonic nightmare spell removes it, as does a successful break enchantment. Otherwise, a wish or miracle is required to lift the curse.
This spell can also be cast on a creature you are scrying, or on a creature distant from you if you hold something the creature carried within the past 24 hours.


Deep Slumber
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
[/B]Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
This spell functions like sleep, except that it affects 10 HD of creatures.


Nightmare
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Unlimited
Target: One living creature
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You send a hideous and unsettling phantasmal vision to a specific creature that you name or otherwise specifically designate. The nightmare prevents restful sleep and causes 1d10 points of damage. The nightmare leaves the subject fatigued and unable to regain arcane spells for the next 24 hours.

You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.

Knowledge, Will Save Modifier:
None, +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject), +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject), +0
Familiar (you know the subject well), -5

Connection, Will Save Modifier:
Likeness or picture, -2
Possession or garment, -4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc, -10

The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Dispel evil cast on the subject while you are casting the spell dispels the nightmare and causes you to be stunned for 10 minutes per caster level of the dispel evil.If the recipient is awake when the spell begins, you can choose to cease casting (ending the spell) or to enter a trance until the recipient goes to sleep, whereupon you become alert again and complete the casting. If you are disturbed during the trance, you must succeed on a Concentration check as if you were in the midst of casting a spell or the spell ends. If you choose to enter a trance, you are not aware of your surroundings or the activities around you while in the trance. You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail any saving throw, for example.) Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell.

Here are the poisons I've found that seem promising for this character.

Cheep Poisons:
25g: Sleep-Smoke (Waterdeep, City of Splendors. Unconsciousness/Unconsciousness!)
100g: Taxine (Yew tree poison. Ingested: 1d3 Con/2d6, each subsequent exposure increases DC by 2 and +1d2 Con damage)

Low Craft Poisons:
Craft DC 15/None: Striped Toadstool (DMG). Ingested: DC 11, deals 1 Wis/2d6 Wis and 1d4 Int. Presumably no craft check necessary for just the raw toadstool.
Craft DC 15/None: Volcanic Gas (Sandstorm). Inhaled: DC 13, Unconsciousness/1d6 Con. Major Creation should work with this.

Poisons with Cool-Sounding Names:
Craft DC 35: Black Lotus Extract (DMG). DC 20, deals 3d6/3d6 Con.

Sleepy Poisons:
DC 17: Lizardfolk Sleep Poison (Contact, Unconsciousness 1d3 rounds/Unconsciousness 1d3 hours) (Serpent Kingdoms)
DC 15: Oil of Taggit (0/Unconscious) (Core)
DC 15: Good-bye Kiss (Exhaustion/Exhaustion, Fatigued on a successful save) (C. Scoundrel)

Poisons to Reduce Will Saves:
1d6 Wis: Doubt Bomb (Fiend Folio)
1d4 Wis: Insanity Mist (A&E)
1d4 Wis: Psychotropic Rot (DoTU, ingested)
1d4 Wis: Battass Smoke (Serpent Kingdoms, Inhaled)

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 08:17 AM
Is that "aroma of dreams" officaly a poision or a magic item?

I can think of everal ways to boost the effective DC of the cloud if it is a poison.

Ambush feats can apply nausiated and shaken to the target for a total of -4 to saves.

There is a feat that lets you boost the DC of a particular poison you craft yourself by +2.

Check the poison handbook for some nice ideas.

Also, avoid elves.

Anarchy_Kanya
2011-09-29, 08:19 AM
Heartwarder and Assassin? :smallconfused:

Runestar
2011-09-29, 08:19 AM
Brass dragon lineage (dragon magic) lets you spend a spell slot to put an enemy to sleep. It does have a HD limit (3xspell slot sacrificed), but would be more fire-friendly.

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 08:21 AM
Is that "aroma of dreams" officaly a poision or a magic item?

I can think of everal ways to boost the effective DC of the cloud if it is a poison.

Ambush feats can apply nausiated and shaken to the target for a total of -4 to saves.

There is a feat that lets you boost the DC of a particular poison you craft yourself by +2.

Check the poison handbook for some nice ideas.

Also, avoid elves.
Sadly, it is an elixir from the MiC. I'm going to browse through the poisons, and see which ones have sleep effects - thanks for the idea!

This character will hate elves, and avoid them like the plague ;)


Heartwarder and Assassin? :smallconfused:
*or.

Although my original intentions were never to take both PrCs, I would have no quarries about doing so. The idea of a beloved Heartwarder who turned evil would make for an interesting back story. Perhaps her heart was broken? After leaving the church, she was forced to live on her own. She found she could make easy money tracking down people.

Brass dragon lineage (dragon magic) lets you spend a spell slot to put an enemy to sleep. It does have a HD limit (3xspell slot sacrificed), but would be more fire-friendly.

I'll look into that. I was also thinking about having some Fey-touched template. Afterall, Sleeping Beauty was given Fairy gifts of grace and beauty.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 08:39 AM
Also another good idea is a zombie brass dragon (useing the A&EG collor to make it small is it is larger than that)

useing the dragon zombie template it keeps it's breathe weapon and the sleep effect is unchanged (but the DC is somehwhat lower)

Even if you are not a caster -
A scroll of raise undead and some wyrmling brass dragon bodies will make a one time cost for some nice minions who throw around sleep effects. Remember to desicrate with an evil alter!

sreservoir
2011-09-29, 08:47 AM
see also manual of the planes starting on page 201. I don't think they have 3.5 updates, so they should be good.

because lucid dreaming lets you assassinate anyone dreaming.

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 08:51 AM
Also another good idea is a zombie brass dragon (useing the A&EG collor to make it small is it is larger than that)

useing the dragon zombie template it keeps it's breathe weapon and the sleep effect is unchanged (but the DC is somehwhat lower)

Even if you are not a caster -
A scroll of raise undead and some wyrmling brass dragon bodies will make a one time cost for some nice minions who throw around sleep effects. Remember to desicrate with an evil alter!

The Zombies don't really go with the feel I'm going for - but it'd be a nice trick to pull off on occasion. If I took a level in sorcerer, would it be worth it to get the Dragon Familiar feat, and snag a Wyrmling Brass Dragon?


see also manual of the planes starting on page 201. I don't think they have 3.5 updates, so they should be good.

because lucid dreaming lets you assassinate anyone dreaming.
Thanks - this is awesome. I will definitely be incorporating the Region of Dreams into my character.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 08:57 AM
One level? No. If you are a sorcerer anyway.. Maybe.

Better to get the Fire domain (planer touchstone maybe) and rebuke a few into your service (they have the fire type!)

Anarchy_Kanya
2011-09-29, 09:00 AM
You lose class features of a prc when you stop qualifying for it. At least that's what Complete Warrior is saying and majority of people treat it as a general rule. I don't know what's RAW, though. So, make of it what you want.

Slipperychicken
2011-09-29, 09:06 AM
If you're using pathfinder, a dip in Witch to get the Slumber Hex might be useful. Only caveat is that any creature can only be targeted once per day, and you'd want a decent INT. For the DC, I'm not sure whether "1/2 witch's level" is supposed to be "1/2 witch's character level" or "1/2 witch class level". But otherwise it seems to fit the theme.

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 09:06 AM
You lose class features of a prc when you stop qualifying for it. At least that's what Complete Warrior is saying and majority of people treat it as a general rule. I don't know what's RAW, though. So, make of it what you want.

It's definitely something I'd confer with a DM about beforehand. There are cases where PrCs themselves grant abilities that would render a character unqualified to take further levels in it - Ur Priest anyone?

Anyways, I understand your point. That's why I would only plan on using one or the other. And, since poison use is generally considered evil, I'm leaning more and more away from the Heartwarder.


Verification about the Region of Dreams, and Dreamscapes:
I want to make certain I understand this. When someone dreams, they create a Dreamscape. A DC 15 Lucid Dreaming Skill Check will allow you to realize you are dreaming, and enter into other Dreamscapes. Once you are in someone else's Dreamscape, you can find and attack them?

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 09:10 AM
Definatly get an +4 assasin dagger. +4 to the DC's of injury poisons.

Also see if there is an animal out there (or vermin maybe) that has a sleep poison. Get one and you can rear it to swap around it's feat for ability focus and other nice things for boosting poison.

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 09:16 AM
Definatly get an +4 assasin dagger. +4 to the DC's of injury poisons.

Also see if there is an animal out there (or vermin maybe) that has a sleep poison. Get one and you can rear it to swap around it's feat for ability focus and other nice things for boosting poison.

Assassin just isn't a good PrC match either. While it gives me benefits to using poison, it just doesn't match up. First, I would have to take a dip just to get the sneak attack requirement. Second, neither that dip, nor the PrC levels would grant me any of the spells I want.

The more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a Bard/Sorcerer/Sublime Chord.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 09:30 AM
Nonono.. Not the class. It is a +1 enchantment to a weapon. It increases the save DC of any poison applied to it by the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

Avalable online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)

Also it grants 1d6 sneak attack, but that is more gravy than anything else.

A wand or scroll of breath of the jungle will also work great before you throw in some inhaled poison or burst in and stab someone (-2 to saves)

After that assasin's stance taken as a feat (or any other sorce of sneak attack damge, I think there is another item or two you can get your hands on) will grant enough sneak attack to pick up ambush feats, like Venomous Strike, for another +2 to the save DC!

Poison Specialization brings you up to +8 with your best sleep poison.

Sickening strike will drop thier save by 2
Terrifying strike will also drop thier save by 2 if you have another spare feat and can get 3d6 sneak attack from items.

total save equivenent - +14 to the DC of the poison.

this may take it a bit to far though, as it is a serious investment of feats, but note that this requires no class levels.

Cruiser1
2011-09-29, 10:08 AM
Sleep Arrows
forces the target to make a DC 11 Will save or fall asleep.
The DC for this seems just too low to even bother with.
One arrow indeed isn't very effective, however any archery focused character (say an ally if you don't want to do it yourself) can pump out numerous arrows per round. Shoot 20 arrows and the target is very likely to roll a natural 1 and autofail. 20 such arrows only cost 2640 gold, which is still cheaper than most other items.


Dawn
Level: Druid 0, ranger 1

Cool way to wake up anyone who might've accidentally been effected by my spells. But, I doubt I'm going to be taking a dip into Druid for access to a single spell.
Buy a wand of it (very cheap for a 0 level spell) and Use Magic Device it, which you can easily do with your high Charisma. :smallbiggrin:

Darrin
2011-09-29, 10:33 AM
The more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a Bard/Sorcerer/Sublime Chord.

Three of the more popular methods to nerf a target's saves:

1) Hexblade 4 w/ Dark Companion ACF (PHBII). -2 penalty to any adjacent creatures.
2) Paladin of Tyranny 3's Aura of Despair (UA). -2 penalty within 10'.
3) Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin). Target has to make a Will save (DC = 10 + character level + Cha modifier) or gets a -10 penalty to saves for 1 round.

While Doomspeak is definitely in the same direction you're leaning, it's somewhat problematic... no action is listed, so I think it defaults to a standard action, and the 1 round duration means it expires just before your turn comes up again, so if you want to put anyone to sleep via spell, you'll need to quicken it or get some sort of celerity shenanigans going.

Some other ideas:

Atramen Oil (Planar Handbook p. 75) is nice. Ranged touch attack, -4 penalty on Fort saves for 1 minute.

Hidden Talent or dipping a level of Psion (Shaper) for psionic minor creation is probably worth looking into. Create any nonmagical plant matter, including:

black lotus extract
greensickness (MM3/Dungeonscape)
sleepweed pod (Magic of Faerun p. 181, *Will* save DC 12 vs. sleep)
luhix (injury drug, two hits = save vs DEATH! DC 25)
mushroom powder (inhaled drug, 4 doses = no-save paralysis)
redflower leaves (ingested drug, 2 doses = no-save nausea)
tekkil (ingested drug, 2 doses = no-save slow)
ziran (ingested drug, 2 doses = 2 points Con damage, no save)

Now, all those drugs are somewhat difficult to deliver to an unwilling opponent... unless you use a Sprayer (A&EG p. 25) to turn a liquid into a 5' x 10' area effect, or a Mister (Drow of the Underdark p. 92) to turn any contact/inhaled poison or drug into a ranged touch attack. While your target can still shrug off the primary and secondary effects with a Fort save, many drugs also have an "overdose" effect that triggers when the target is exposed to multiple doses within a certain time period. As noted above, some of those overdose effects do not allow a save.

ILM
2011-09-29, 10:47 AM
You may want to look at this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867266/Enchanter_Handbook)

Also, get a Veil of Allure (MIC).

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 11:12 AM
1) Hexblade 4 w/ Dark Companion ACF (PHBII). -2 penalty to any adjacent creatures.
2) Paladin of Tyranny 3's Aura of Despair (UA). -2 penalty within 10'.
3) Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin). Target has to make a Will save (DC = 10 + character level + Cha modifier) or gets a -10 penalty to saves for 1 round.

While Doomspeak is definitely in the same direction you're leaning, it's somewhat problematic... no action is listed, so I think it defaults to a standard action, and the 1 round duration means it expires just before your turn comes up again, so if you want to put anyone to sleep via spell, you'll need to quicken it or get some sort of celerity shenanigans going.

I'll look into Paladin of Tyranny in a moment.

Doomspeak is a definite, but how do I quicken a feat?

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 03:56 PM
You quicken the spell you use following the feat. The issue is action economy. You make a great penelty to thier save, but now you have burned your standard action. You need to find ether a way to force a save or lose that doesn't take a standard action, or a way to get another standard action.

For the first catagory, that is where a rebuked brass dragon comes in. That breathe weapon is much more powerful with that penelty to saves.

For the second, a belt of battle can be used for another standard action, or get to level 9 of swiftblade (advanceing Sublime chord casting) to get a second standard action every round you want (and lots of other gishy goodness)

Also quicken spell can be used to drop a target to sleep, but you need a way to midigate the cost.

There is a feat somewhere that lets you burn bardic music uses to midigate metamagic costs.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 03:57 PM
You quicken the spell you use following the feat. The issue is action economy. You make a great penelty to thier save, but now you have burned your standard action. You need to find ether a way to force a save or lose that doesn't take a standard action, or a way to get another standard action.

For the first catagory, that is where a rebuked brass dragon comes in. That breathe weapon is much more powerful with that penelty to saves.

For the second, a belt of battle can be used for another standard action, or get to level 9 of swiftblade (advanceing Sublime chord casting) to get a second standard action every round you want (and lots of other gishy goodness)

Also quicken spell can be used to drop a target to sleep, but you need a way to midigate the cost.

There is a feat somewhere that lets you burn bardic music uses to midigate metamagic costs.

TheRinni
2011-09-29, 05:32 PM
Alright, I've edited the OP and added in two builds I've come up with for class progression. I'm leaning towards the second one - which is more like an assassin. For items, I'm looking for anything that will increase miss chance.

Safety Sword
2011-09-29, 08:53 PM
Did anyone notice that table? That's a good looking table... :smallwink:

By the way, the elves called. They didn't say anything, they just laughed a lot. Not sure what that was all about. Bastards. :smallfurious:

Well, you can always stab people who are immune to sleep effects.

Fouredged Sword
2011-09-29, 09:00 PM
Grab some high dc moderate int damage poison to drop animals with one dose. They have 2 int max.

Darrin
2011-09-30, 08:01 AM
This build is Bard 3/Sorcerer 7/Sublime Chord 10:


There's no reason to take Sublime Chord 3-10. Most folks replace it with something else, usually Virtuoso. Actually, Sorcerer 7 isn't really necessary, all you need is Sorcerer 1-6 for 3rd level spells. Taking the first level of Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom after Sorcerer 6 might work, if you can get proficiency with all martial weapons from somewhere (Militia feat, or Outsider type), then take the rest of those levels after Sublime Chord 2. That certainly helps out your combat prowess.

Another option might be taking Arcane Preparation (CArc) and then go into Ultimate Magus after Sublime Chord 1.



This build is Rogue 3/Bard 7/Arcane Trickster 10. It gives me the Spells of a 17th Level bard, and 7d6 Sneak Attack Damage - which is pretty nice.


Consider going into Unseen Seer rather than Arcane Trickster. Unseen Seer has better class features and slightly better BAB.



1. Most of them have very low Saves – how can I raise these?


Check out Talfirian Song in Races of Faerun. Only works on illusion spells, but lets you spend bardic music to Heighten your spells.



2. Many of them affect everyone within a large area – how do you suggest keeping my party from falling asleep on me?


Spellguard Rings (4000 GP, Complete Mage p. 127).

Also, try dipping Archmage for Mastery of Shaping.

Tr011
2011-09-30, 08:13 AM
I would think about how to make your spells silent if you want to build a useful assassin.

herrhauptmann
2011-09-30, 11:26 AM
I know the goal of your character is to poison people and thereby win the fight, but there's a bunch of other effects you could throw onto your weapon to ensure you win, even if your target makes their save vs poison or is actually an elf and can't be put to sleep...

Such as being able to make your target stunned, shaken, have stat damage, and level drained. So here's a few I compiled for a character of my own. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196596

edit:
And BoED also has its own list of 'holy poisons' that you can use on creatures normally immune to poison (sorta lame ya?).

Daftendirekt
2011-09-30, 12:02 PM
I would think about how to make your spells silent if you want to build a useful assassin.

Yeah, and bard spells CAN'T be silent.

Darrin
2011-09-30, 01:22 PM
Yeah, and bard spells CAN'T be silent.

UMD a wand of whispercast (Lords of Madness p. 129) and you might be able to get around that.

Tr011
2011-09-30, 02:45 PM
UMD a wand of whispercast (Lords of Madness p. 129) and you might be able to get around that.

Would work just fine imo, but I don't know if the V(erbal components) of whispercast are regular or if that means the whispering of the next spell. If it's regular V, just silent Whispercast via Silent Spell as a sorcerer and cast your bard spell then. Look here how to get easy metamagic for your sorcerer spells (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0).

Optimator
2011-09-30, 08:21 PM
Rapture of the Deep from SW is a great Sublime Chord spell, especially for a sleep-enthusiast; Sublime Chords get 5th and 6th level Bard spells "early". Use a Veil of Allure (SS, or MiC--I think it's unchanged) and the Captivating Melody feat (CM) for save-boosters. Tack on Snowsong (FB) and Nixie's Grace (SpC) spells for more Charisma. Top it off with things like Doomspeak (CoR) and other save reducers like negative levels, the sickened condition, and the shaken condition.

Resist THAT!

Also, Greater Dispel Magic for that pesky ol' Mindblank.