[PF] Any way to survive the Red Mantis?

[RndmNumGen]

I've been reading through the Pathfinder Campaign Setting recently, and I have been intrigued(yet also worried) by the organization known as the Red Mantis. Simply put, they are an organization of assassins that treat the act of assassination(not mere killing) as a religious calling, and once they accept a contract the they will stop at nothing until that person is dead - and making sure they stay dead, hunting them back down if they are brought back by resurrections and like like.

While the PCS is very firm about this, it is also very vague about actual methods and the resources of the organization, aside from 'having members and informants spread throughout all of the governments and organizations of Golarion'. My question is, if you cross one of these guys how screwed are you?

- If you simply get into a fight with one(not having a contract placed on you) will they also stop at nothing to kill you?
- What if you are the bodyguard of a target?
- If you are later brought back will they also track you down?
- What if you killed one of their members?
- If you are the target of an assassination, and you killed the assassin who came after you, how many others will the Red Mantis send? Will they keep coming until either you are dead or the organization's members have been completely depleted?
- If the man who placed the contract on you dies, will they still continue with the contract?
- If you become undead, an outsider, or gain some other form of immortality where you are not truly alive, will they still come after you?
- How powerful are the Red Mantis compared to the other organizations, such as the Hellknights or the Apis Consortium?
- If one of the leaders of these groups has a contract placed on him, how aptly could these organizations defend them against the Red Mantis?
- What's to stop the Red Mantis from just killing everyone on Golarion?

The PCS doesn't have answers for any of these, and I while I am genuinely interested in the Red Mantis as a DM I can't think of any way to actually fit them into a game. Have any of these questions been answered elsewhere by Paizo? If not, what are your opinions on these questions?

[gkathellar]

If a sinister organization of politically influential assassins targets you, then you just need to introduce every single one of them to the PC's closest friend:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/clanlessninja/fire.jpg

Arson.

[Tiki Snakes]

My assumption would be that unless they are contracted to kill you, they will only really deal with you as you get in their way. Unless it says otherwise, they'd probably be willing to kill you anyway, but are unlikely to hold a grudge about it or go to their full lengths to ensure that you stay dead, etc.

Vengeance would mean taking a personal interest in the matter, which would make it murder rather than assassination really. So if you kill an assassin whilst, say, defending your boss, you can expect the next guy to treat you very seriously as a threat, but beyond that I wouldn't anticipate any revenge attacks as such.

As for actual targets, less sure of my answers but here goes.

For the most part, it should depend on the wording of the contract. I could imagine, for example, that there could be simpler and cheaper versions of their contract, depending on what you are willing to pay. The contract may stipulate that if the assassin dies during his attempt then there is no further requirement for the organisation to send further assassins. Perhaps the contract would be simply declared void and the patron gets some or all of his money back, (perhaps minus a deposit).
A more expensive contract would I imagine have no such qualifications and would mean that they would literally keep sending assassins till either the Target is dead or the Organisation is destroyed. Obviously, they'd be careful of who they agreed to take out in such cases.

Of course, I know nothing directly about the Red Mantis or the setting, this is just as I would expect and rule it from what you have mentioned so-far.

[tyckspoon]

- If you simply get into a fight with one(not having a contract placed on you) will they also stop at nothing to kill you?
- What if you are the bodyguard of a target?
- If you are later brought back will they also track you down?
- What if you killed one of their members?
- If you are the target of an assassination, and you killed the assassin who came after you, how many others will the Red Mantis send? Will they keep coming until either you are dead or the organization's members have been completely depleted?
- If the man who placed the contract on you dies, will they still continue with the contract?
- If you become undead, an outsider, or gain some other form of immortality where you are not truly alive, will they still come after you?
- How powerful are the Red Mantis compared to the other organizations, such as the Hellknights or the Apis Consortium?
- If one of the leaders of these groups has a contract placed on him, how aptly could these organizations defend them against the Red Mantis?
- What's to stop the Red Mantis from just killing everyone on Golarion?


Preface: I haven't read the PCS myself, so this is all opinion based largely on somewhat similar organizations from other fictions I am familiar with.
- Get in a random fight with one: They'll kill you if they have to in defense or to get to their actual target, but they won't have any interest in you other than that. You aren't their contract, you are of no special interest to them.
- Bodyguard: Same thing. Unless somebody specifically pays to include you in the target list, you're just collateral damage.
- Non-target raised later: Eh. You were just killed. If you are meant to be perma-dead, sooner or later you will annoy somebody enough to be the target of a proper paid-for assassination. Until that happens, be happy you have rich enough friends to have been raised.
- Killed a member: They certainly won't be happy with you, but it probably won't actually be any more dangerous than killing anybody else (who belongs to a powerful group.) Less, perhaps; if you nark off other powerful groups, they may get annoyed enough to sic the Mantis on you. Assassin groups usually have rules against originating their own contracts.
- Tenacity of the assassins: They'll send as many as they need. If you kill the first one or two, you can probably expect to start dealing with coordinated squads of them after that unless their dogma includes some "We work alone" strictures.
- Contract purchaser dies: They probably don't care; this is where the assassination-as-religious-calling-thing comes into play as compared to assassination as a business. In a simple business contract, the assassin is only bound to the guy who paid; if he dies, that obligation is null. For the religious assassins, the mortal contracter is only the reason to start the job- the obligation to see you dead is actually an obligation to their god, and the guy who actually requested the job is irrelevant.
- Alternate existence: I would think they'd still come after you. The fact that they will track you down and re-kill you if you get raised suggests they aren't contracting for a simple "make him dead" so much as "end his existence."
- What stops them from killing everyone: Well, that's simple. Like you mentioned, they are assassins, not random murderers. Nobody is paying them to.

[Rising Phoenix]

It's not actually a bad assassination prestige class...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/red-mantis-assassin

They're 'death attack' isn't effective... but their Mantis form can be scary I guess...

Oh and Red Shroud...

[BlueInc]

[QUOTE=Rising Phoenix;11937685]It's not actually a bad assassination prestige class...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/red-mantis-assassin/QUOTE]

Hmm... Almost seems worth all the useless feats.

[Eric Tolle]

The solution to this, like all other problems in Pathfinder is simple; Be a wizard or cleric. Plane Shift, and then from your private demi-plane just use Astral Projection to deal with the Prime Material. You can put "kick me" signs on the assassins' backs, disrupt their meetings by loudly moving them, even take put a contact on yourself. They won't be able to touch you.

Wizards and Clerics: rendering all threats laughable since 2000.

[Eric Tolle]

The solution to this, like all other problems in Pathfinder is simple; Be a wizard or cleric. Plane Shift, and then from your private demi-plane just use Astral Projection to deal with the Prime Material. You can put "kick me" signs on the assassins' backs, disrupt their meetings by loudly moving them, even take put a contact on yourself. They won't be able to touch you.

Wizards and Clerics: rendering all threats laughable since 2000.

[Andorax]

I suppose another option is conquest of an entire nation.

One of the various "provisos" within the Red Mantis is that they will not accept contracts on legitimate heads of state. I'm not sure if that includes cancelling existing ones or not, but hey...if you're wrong, you still have the resources of a small country to help fend off the assasination attempts.

[RndmNumGen]

I suppose another option is conquest of an entire nation.

One of the various "provisos" within the Red Mantis is that they will not accept contracts on legitimate heads of state. I'm not sure if that includes cancelling existing ones or not, but hey...if you're wrong, you still have the resources of a small country to help fend off the assasination attempts.

The Red Mantis will take contracts on ursurpers, warlords or elected leaders; their taboo is only with killing monarchs. So, taking over a country won't help you. What happens if you're actually a legitimate heir and the king dies is up for debate, though.

[9mm]

Things to remember,

they are not cheap; favors and artifacts are often the price for a hit, and this is not negotiable.

They are not easy to find; unless they approach you it's often a long shot to hire them.

They do not kill indiscriminately, they were paid to kill a specific person and will go to great lengths to kill him, and only him.

Finally if the pc's are the target of a hit, they're boned.

[gkathellar]

The Red Mantis will take contracts on ursurpers, warlords or elected leaders; their taboo is only with killing monarchs. So, taking over a country won't help you. What happens if you're actually a legitimate heir and the king dies is up for debate, though.

Wow. That sounds like an absolutely terrible policy for any guild of assassins that doesn't want to end up decorating the hanging gallery of every non-monarchist country and every monarchist country allied with a non-monarchist country. I really cannot think of a better way to shorten your organization's lifespan than to say, "and we take contracts on some heads of state!"

[Reverent-One]

Wow. That sounds like an absolutely terrible policy for any guild of assassins that doesn't want to end up decorating the hanging gallery of every non-monarchist country and every monarchist country allied with a non-monarchist country. I really cannot think of a better way to shorten your organization's lifespan than to say, "and we take contracts on some heads of state!"

Because assassin's guilds (ones not controlled by the state anyway) are usually treated so well?

[nyarlathotep]

Wow. That sounds like an absolutely terrible policy for any guild of assassins that doesn't want to end up decorating the hanging gallery of every non-monarchist country and every monarchist country allied with a non-monarchist country. I really cannot think of a better way to shorten your organization's lifespan than to say, "and we take contracts on some heads of state!"

They are specifically sponsored by several monarchist nations afraid of non-monarchist take over.

[gkathellar]

If they're politically useful, yeah, definitely.

If I were running one, whenever a new head of state came into power, I would present myself and promise to put myself at his disposal. And if he wasn't so into it, I would go to his second-in-command. Basic organized crime, really: be less trouble than you're worth.

EDIT:

They are specifically sponsored by several monarchist nations afraid of non-monarchist take over.

Ah, yes. That explains it, then. Seems like the best way to avoid them would be to go to a non-monarchist nation, then.

[Talentless]

If they're politically useful, yeah, definitely.

If I were running one, whenever a new head of state came into power, I would present myself and promise to put myself at his disposal. And if he wasn't so into it, I would go to his second-in-command. Basic organized crime, really: be less trouble than you're worth.

EDIT:


Ah, yes. That explains it, then. Seems like the best way to avoid them would be to go to a non-monarchist nation, then.

Actually, they'd be more likely to operate in a non-monarchist nation... there is no one on the forbidden kill list there

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, but they also have no unofficial/official allies in the local government.

[Talentless]

Yeah, but they also have no unofficial/official allies in the local government.

Yeah... All non Monarch governments totally don't have Viziers/Politicians that wouldn't hesitate to use an Assassin group to remove rivals. :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

If a sinister organization of politically influential assassins targets you, then you just need to introduce every single one of them to the PC's closest friend:

*fire*

Arson.
Oddly enough, the first time a PC of mine encountered a Red Mantis asssassin, it was in a burning building.
One they started.
It must be their closest friend too.:smallamused:
***
Off topic, unless that's your blog, your stealing someone bandwidth.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah... All non Monarch governments totally don't have Viziers/Politicians that wouldn't hesitate to use an Assassin group to remove rivals. :smallconfused:

Someone who's willing to hire the Red Mantis is entirely different than the actual government being willing to shelter/support them.