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Demon In Me
2011-09-29, 10:16 AM
So, in the campaign I'm currently running I've hit a bit of a...dead-end.

A disease, magical in nature, is basically starting to spread throughout the populace and my players just encountered it. The disease is basically a "zombification", separating the soul and the body, trapping one(soul) in an alternate plane to be used as labor and fuel in an attempt to free a caged evil, while the other wreaks havoc and causes chaos on the physical plane.

One of the characters was, well, infected, which I had thought as a possibility, but not really thought through the path something like that would follow. An NPC has managed to stave off the majority of the effects, so now his soul and his body are seperated, but as of yet his body is just incredibly ill and weak, while his soul is wandering on the alternate plane.

As of right now, this isn't so bad. I had thought to use this occasion as an info dump. As he's watching the red robed priests of the god herd the other souls into a black city, this guy(a god who gave up his immortality to chain the god originally) will walk up him, info-dump, info-dump, info-dump, and then offer him a way out of the plane, which is through these three guardians who will let him if he passes their tests.

Now, it's kinda an amalgam of different theologies, but I was going to make this somewhat Greek-ish. The three guardians are the three guys Zeus put in charge of judging dead souls(Rhadamanthys, Minos & Aiakos?), and they agree to let him pass, if he can pass the tests because the souls that are being trapped are completely bypassing the judging process. They're not dead, per se, so they're not judged, and these demi-gods are bored. I have this generally laid out.

Unfortunately, I become stumped at the tests. I want them to be themed, relatively challenging, and multi-faceted. Originally I thought they would be tests of Wisdom, Strength, and Preservance, with each test having a good outcome and a bad outcome, with the character in question learning a valuable lesson and valuable info about the campaign(hence why it's challenging. If he gets through it all, well, he's going to get a good chunk of what's going on).

Ie. The test of Wisdom is a woman chained to a rock. She sees the character, tells him she was trapped by Hades for refusing his advances, and begs him to set her free. Another woman sits up on a ledge, this is Tiresias in female form, and explains that she is not, in fact, a woman, but a demon, but due to a divine truce in place, Hades cannot kill the demon, only a living mortal can. If he kills the demon, he will free all the souls that the demon ate. To pass through, the character must make a decision. If he frees him, well, now there's a low level demon, if he kills him, the woman will turn back into the demon. If he does nothing, Tiresias will explain that the souls continue to suffer and years from now, the demon will free itself and eat more and they will also suffer. The lesson? Inaction can be just as damning as action, or think carefully and use wisdom to find the truth(there would be clues to spot that the woman is a demon), and the truth learned about the campaign would be something along the lines of a pretty face hides lies more easily than a ugly one or something.

That was my first idea, but, well, the lesson's tie to the campaign is more flimsy than I would have liked, and I'm generally hesitant to use the situation...Plus, I'm at a loss for what clues to leave to let on it's a demon(I was thinking furrow marks from claws around the area the woman/demon is in, special, uber chains holding him...and that's all I got).

Well, that's the idea, but I'm at a loss as to how to do all this. I was also thinking something along the lines of just...three spirits with three riddles/logic puzzles who give a little info dump on the historical background for what's going on(ie, a commander in a battle long ago who explains how he died). Things that with a little thought can be tied to the current time, but I want some...poemy riddles. Some really good ones. And I'm a little loss with that. Plus, riddles are...eh, open to interpretation and I'm worried what I see as obvious, will not be. Regardless.

Any ideas?

Totally Guy
2011-09-29, 10:58 AM
I'd like to hear what'll happen if the player succeeds these tests. What if he fails them? Can the player fail them?

Show
2011-09-29, 11:33 AM
There can always be generic tests of compassion, etc.

A dead soul asks for a bit of food or some minor magical item from the material plane.
While it will ease the spirit's suffering (slightly), it also comes at an obvious and already known cost to the character. Some curse, or even just the loss of the item. If the character is willing to accept the penalty for his/ her charity, then congrats, he/she has passed the test. No curse after all!

Those tricky, tricky guardians. :smalltongue:

Thinker
2011-09-29, 12:34 PM
Rip off Mortal Kombat.

In MK they had Test Your Might, Test Your Luck, Test Your Sight, and Test Your Strike. While you don't need to recreate the tests from the games (they would suck in a P&P RPG), they do provide a decent starting point. Test Your Might would obviously be about physical strength. Test Your Luck would be about beating the odds. I would drop Test Your Sight completely. Test Your Strike could be a challenge of skill.

As for actual tests, here are some ideas:
Test Your Might:
Move a heavy object
Out-wrestle an opponent
Win a tug-of-war with an opponent
Test Your Luck:
Survive running across a field while more powerful opponents try to stop you
A shell game
Setting specific game of chance
TEST Your Strike:
[LIST] Challenge specific to the character's profession
Avoid the descending explosions in a storm of fire
Snatch a black pebble within a storm of hail

There are plenty more challenges that can be determined by honing in on the desired epicness of the task.

Silma
2011-10-02, 03:55 AM
I have an idea, but I'm not sure how you can include it. It would be a test similar to your Test of Wisdom.

Test of Determination/Wisdom or something

A young boy is imprisoned/restrained. He looks very sad. The PC talks to him and he seems to be in need of a friend. He asks the PC to free him. He says that he didn't do anything wrong.

Then the PC talks to a seer. The seer tells the PC that this boy is cursed. That one day, the curse will take place and many people will die because of that boy. It will not be the boy's fault, but it is bound to happen nonetheless. The seer asks the PC to kill the boy and in doing so, save many lives.

So the PC knows that the boy is indeed innocent, but he will unwillingly bring great pain and sorrow. And he has to make a choice. Kill the boy or not.

The PC talks to the boy, and the boy confirms that he is cursed. He admits that what the seer says is true, but still asks the PC to set him free.

The lesson of this test is that one must be prepared to make hard decisions. So if the PC doesn't kill the boy, he fails the test. The decision he has to take, is to kill the boy even though he is innocent, because his death will be the salvation of many others.

Cerlis
2011-10-02, 06:12 AM
the thing i worry about is what if he fails everything, or worse what if he horribly succeeds at everything.

pulling numbers out of my ass here, but i'd say you got a 45% chance of making it so he doesnt know what to do/how to win, and a 45% chance of making a test or two (or all) to obvious and he has very little chance of failing.

For instance, whether it is wise to go with it or not, those claw marks are meta knowledge that its probably a demon. It would be foolish to judge a woman solely based on that, but that is the decision i think many gamers would make.

I think it would be best to use this as a story method more than a challenge.

For instance what if the thing where both woman and demon. perhaps a woman with a permanant curse or a redeemed demon who could only free the souls she ate by dying and was to cowardly to kill herself. Thus by killing her he murders a good creature, but he also does a great good. The lesson being you have to make decisions you dont like and to do the right thing you have to sometimes sacrifice your own purity, and cant be selfish and not do the right thing cus it will hurt your (sense of goodness).

it took me a second but i remembered what else i was going to say.

While that option doubles your chances (or according to my theory increases chances of success by 80%) of him making a choice that doesnt put you at a road block

however i think a good idea is to make the tests unfailable.

Test of strength. Match a indefeatable opponent
Possibilities
-he wins-Proper use of force in the right way in the right form (thus covering every possible form of winning) can defeat any problem
-its a draw (from self healing, or escaping, or what have you)-One doesnt always need to "defeat" a problem, but only learn to deal with it
-He loses-there is always a bigger fish, always better yourself

Most of the debates on these forums happen cus there doesnt seem to be one single superior morality and mentality. the point is not to keep him from leaving. the souls are avoiding their judgement. they want him to succeed so he can give them their jobs back. the point of the tests is to impart him some wisdom, in whatever form, before he goes back to the world.

and indeed if he catches on he learns the big lesson. Do not accept things as they are given to you. Dont assume people tell the truth or things are ass they seem. by not suspecting the seeming impossible you close your mind to the possibilities. and indeed you can use this well if you plan for them to solve the overall problem by finding a unique solution.

suhkkaet
2011-10-02, 07:00 AM
If you want some "unwinnable, but learn a lesson"-tests, you could also draw inspiration from Valhalla (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094238/) (It's a danish cartoon, but I believe it's been released with english subs/voices at some point).

The tests I'm thinking of are these;
Thor has to lift a cat. In reality, the cat is Jörmungandr (The Midgard Serpent), but he still manages to lift one of the cats feet.
Loki has to compete in an eating competition, but his contestant is actually a flame (because fire eats everything).
Thor also has to drink water from a cup, but the cup is a "portal" to the seas, so he can never empty it.

In the end, they are told/figure out (can't remember which) that they were cheated

The lesson: nothing is ever what it seems, and you shouldn't compete on someone elses terms.

"Unwinnable, but learn a lesson"-tests are great. And you don't have to worry about whether or not he figures out a way to win them - and you don't have to worry about whether or not he gets his "lesson", because you can have someone actually tell him in the end.
If he figures out he was cheated, give him some extra reward of sorts.

Anderlith
2011-10-02, 06:07 PM
Test of Perseverance or maybe Wisdom: a maze of corridors. just have a grid of corridors with small rooms at the crossroads, nothing fancy. It has a sand floor & the entryways from the rooms into the corridors have doors that slide up when you approach to allow passage & slide down when you go through or walk away. The thing about the maze is... it repeats itself. If you run in one direction you just keep going. Now after you pass say five rooms you see your own footprints in the sand. The maze just teleports you to the opposite edge of the maze. The trick to escape it to go through a door, step through, go back through the same door, turn around again & step through one last time.


Corridor x-> Room
Corridor <-x Room
Corridor x-> Freedom

Demon In Me
2011-10-05, 03:44 PM
I'd like to hear what'll happen if the player succeeds these tests. What if he fails them? Can the player fail them?

Well, ultimately if he succeeds his body and soul will be reunited once more, and if he does really well he'll come away a bit more wiser.

And, theoretically, yes, he can fail. Taking my previous example, of the chained woman who is not a woman but a demon trying to manipulate him into freeing it, well, if he frees the woman, it'll turn into a demonic creature of some sort and attack him. If he manages to wound it enough, it'll flee, but it could potentially kill him. So, while there's is nothing that will automatically fail him, it will make things that much more difficult to get through.


A dead soul asks for a bit of food or some minor magical item from the material plane.
While it will ease the spirit's suffering (slightly), it also comes at an obvious and already known cost to the character. Some curse, or even just the loss of the item. If the character is willing to accept the penalty for his/ her charity, then congrats, he/she has passed the test. No curse after all!

A test of compassion of some sort would be great, though I don't know how this would work. I don't plan on having the character come back this way anytime soon, though I suppose it's a possibility, so something from the material world is out. I suppose I could take a page from Dante, and have it just be a general, "Listen to my story, tell my wife I'm sorry, remember my name," or some such. As for an item, well, I can't quite think of anything that would work. Unless I put the dead soul in the middle of a frozen river, a la Dante, and have it beg him for it's cloak, and the penalty could come from the freezing weather, but if the character gives the soul the cloak, it will impart knowledge of the world and/or upcoming struggle and/or a hint as to what the next test is. Especially if I put this first.


Test Your Might:

* Move a heavy object
* Out-wrestle an opponent
* Win a tug-of-war with an opponent

Test Your Luck:

* Survive running across a field while more powerful opponents try to stop you
* A shell game
* Setting specific game of chance

TEST Your Strike:[list] Challenge specific to the character's profession Avoid the descending explosions in a storm of fire Snatch a black pebble within a storm of hail

I may do some sort of play off of these, but I don't, per say, want the tests to be failable. I want them to make the player think, to pause, and potentially come away with a bit of knowledge of the general situation if he does really well.


A young boy is imprisoned/restrained. He looks very sad. The PC talks to him and he seems to be in need of a friend. He asks the PC to free him. He says that he didn't do anything wrong.

Then the PC talks to a seer. The seer tells the PC that this boy is cursed. That one day, the curse will take place and many people will die because of that boy. It will not be the boy's fault, but it is bound to happen nonetheless. The seer asks the PC to kill the boy and in doing so, save many lives.

So the PC knows that the boy is indeed innocent, but he will unwillingly bring great pain and sorrow. And he has to make a choice. Kill the boy or not.

The PC talks to the boy, and the boy confirms that he is cursed. He admits that what the seer says is true, but still asks the PC to set him free.

The lesson of this test is that one must be prepared to make hard decisions. So if the PC doesn't kill the boy, he fails the test. The decision he has to take, is to kill the boy even though he is innocent, because his death will be the salvation of many others.

I really like this idea, actually. Especially since it will be a nice setup for a reoccurring character/plot hook later if he doesn't kill the boy.


pulling numbers out of my ass here, but i'd say you got a 45% chance of making it so he doesnt know what to do/how to win, and a 45% chance of making a test or two (or all) to obvious and he has very little chance of failing.

And this is kinda why I ended up deciding to come here. I don't want to make it too easy, but I don't want to make it a fight through the entire thing.


For instance what if the thing where both woman and demon. perhaps a woman with a permanant curse or a redeemed demon who could only free the souls she ate by dying and was to cowardly to kill herself. Thus by killing her he murders a good creature, but he also does a great good. The lesson being you have to make decisions you dont like and to do the right thing you have to sometimes sacrifice your own purity, and cant be selfish and not do the right thing cus it will hurt your (sense of goodness).

Similar to the previous boy example, where there is a creature that is simultaneously a woman and a demon, or do you mean like two creatures, a woman and a demon? I like the dual example, as it does present a puzzling predicament.



however i think a good idea is to make the tests unfailable.

Test of strength. Match a indefeatable opponent
Possibilities
-he wins-Proper use of force in the right way in the right form (thus covering every possible form of winning) can defeat any problem
-its a draw (from self healing, or escaping, or what have you)-One doesnt always need to "defeat" a problem, but only learn to deal with it
-He loses-there is always a bigger fish, always better yourself


While I am leaning towards making them extremely difficult to fail, I don't particularly want to make them completely unfailable. It isn't horribly necessary that he returns to his body, but it would be nice. If he does something stupid, though, well...


Most of the debates on these forums happen cus there doesnt seem to be one single superior morality and mentality. the point is not to keep him from leaving. the souls are avoiding their judgement. they want him to succeed so he can give them their jobs back. the point of the tests is to impart him some wisdom, in whatever form, before he goes back to the world.

and indeed if he catches on he learns the big lesson. Do not accept things as they are given to you. Dont assume people tell the truth or things are ass they seem. by not suspecting the seeming impossible you close your mind to the possibilities. and indeed you can use this well if you plan for them to solve the overall problem by finding a unique solution.

The demi-gods do want their jobs back, and they certainly do not want the souls to continue bypassing judgment. From an overall stand point, while they want him to return to the Prime, it doesn't come cheap or easy, as per the norm with this situation.

Each test, whether win with flying colors or not, will impart a mini-lesson. Basically something that is general: Don't accept things as they are, etc. These are just general lessons that can be applied to the campaign, but the application is not immediately apparent. (IE, Do not accept things as they appear to be: Do not immediately assume that the kindly High Chancellor is really kindly or human or anything like what he appears to be.) If he does extremely well, he will gain specific knowledge, (Great power can be harvested from the chaos and blood of the mortal world, great power that can be used for any number of reasons...Or something concerning the earlier Divine Wars, etc.)


Thor has to lift a cat. In reality, the cat is Jörmungandr (The Midgard Serpent), but he still manages to lift one of the cats feet.
Loki has to compete in an eating competition, but his contestant is actually a flame (because fire eats everything).
Thor also has to drink water from a cup, but the cup is a "portal" to the seas, so he can never empty it.


I'm hesitant to use unwinnable cheats like this, especially repeatedly(it's not a bad idea for one test, but I would hesitate to use the setup for all three tests). I suppose I kinda imagine the tests to be tests of character in a way. The three demi-gods don't want some schmuck traipezing through this passage, so they test him to make sure he has what it takes to actually fix whatever's going on, and not mess things up anymore.


Test of Perseverance or maybe Wisdom: a maze of corridors. just have a grid of corridors with small rooms at the crossroads, nothing fancy. It has a sand floor & the entryways from the rooms into the corridors have doors that slide up when you approach to allow passage & slide down when you go through or walk away. The thing about the maze is... it repeats itself. If you run in one direction you just keep going. Now after you pass say five rooms you see your own footprints in the sand. The maze just teleports you to the opposite edge of the maze. The trick to escape it to go through a door, step through, go back through the same door, turn around again & step through one last time.


Corridor x-> Room
Corridor <-x Room
Corridor x-> Freedom

While an interesting idea, I'm not sure that the solution would be immediately apparent to the player, and I don't want them to sit there for 6 hours trying to escape the infinite maze.


Some other ideas I had:
1. A play on the old, one door lies, the other tells the truth, but this particularly instance, both doors lie. Since there is no immediately apparent way to win, I'm hesitant to use it, but I kinda imagine the character going through the door, falling down a tunnel, landing on his butt to a laughing little imp.
2. Another of the same vein is the idea of a shell game in which none of the shells actually have the item. I would want to subtly suggest this somehow, but I don't really know how that would work.
3. A gauntlet of traps and enemies, one in which halfway through a person(child?) is stuck or injured or something and at the end there is a "guardian". He has the option to help the injured person, but it will make running the gauntlet that much more difficult. At the end of the maze, the injured person(hence why I suggested child, might make it less easily guessed) turns out to be said guardian. If they helped, well, they get a free pass, if not, they have a fight.
4. A take on an idea I saw here: A room with a magical glyph or some such. Locks him in. Walls start descending, and a sand timer. He can touch the glyph to someone give himself more time or rest the walls, but it'll give him some damage or something. However, if he just lets it happen, the timer will run out, the doors will stop, and he'll go free. I'm just not sure what would happen if he continues to do the timer, he'll either get squashed, the doors will stop anyway, or he'll blacks out from damage. I don't want to injure him that much, though I suppose the doors stopping would kinda work, if a bit anticlimactic. Ultimately the lesson is that while perserverance is admirable, sometimes acceptance is the proper route or some such.


The Demon

suhkkaet
2011-10-05, 06:34 PM
4. A take on an idea I saw here: A room with a magical glyph or some such. Locks him in. Walls start descending, and a sand timer. He can touch the glyph to someone give himself more time or rest the walls, but it'll give him some damage or something. However, if he just lets it happen, the timer will run out, the doors will stop, and he'll go free. I'm just not sure what would happen if he continues to do the timer, he'll either get squashed, the doors will stop anyway, or he'll blacks out from damage. I don't want to injure him that much, though I suppose the doors stopping would kinda work, if a bit anticlimactic. Ultimately the lesson is that while perserverance is admirable, sometimes acceptance is the proper route or some such.


The Demon

This reminds me of one of the things from "that maze" in (dare I mention this?) Dungeons & Dragons (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/), the movie.
If you havn't seen the movie, go see it. (Not because I think it's particularily good, but because of this maze-thingie, since there are a few worthy tests there)
Re: the room with the roof descending;
All "the hero" has to do is smash the sand timer, and the roof moves up, and he can get to the next room.
(Spoiler in case you havn't seen the movie)

Also, if you have seen Labyrinth (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091369/), you could draw some inspiration from that.

There are a lot of good movies out there to draw inspiration from.. Of course, it's not as original as anything you come up with ("pull out of the air", as the danish saying), but inspiration is awesome like that, it might make you think in different ways and come up with new challenges, which you might never had thought of otherwise. (... I use a lot of movies, books, cartoons etc for my campaigns)

Anderlith
2011-10-05, 09:59 PM
While an interesting idea, I'm not sure that the solution would be immediately apparent to the player, and I don't want them to sit there for 6 hours trying to escape the infinite maze.

The Demon

Doesn't the whole difficult solution make it a test of Willpower/Perseverance?
I guess you could just throw a generic "stand here even though you are being hurt" thing.

NichG
2011-10-06, 08:06 PM
At one point I had a party of Planescape characters go to Bahamut in his godly realm for aid. One of them was actually a half-dragon and wanted to become a full dragon. Bahamut tested them in various ways, but three of the tests were:

The half-dragon was asked to guard Bahamut's horde for a night as an honor thing. During the night the horde was attacked by something far over-CR for the character (yes this is odd since it was in the middle of the godly realm). The test was whether or not she'd run after establishing the strength of the opponent, and she ended up staying and fighting so was granted a boon (the fight didn't actually happen after her decision to stay).

The party had a dwarf item crafter who wanted to make something that supposedly would play a part in the destruction of a very dangerous artifact the party had (they had a prophecy that it would end the blood war). He received some ancient texts on the construction of an artifurnace, but the texts said that he had to sacrifice his own soul in the creation of the device. He went ahead and did it anyhow, only to discover that he didn't die and the device was successfully completed, so he also got a boon.

The third test (failed), was that the Xaositect party member had made a Deck of Many Things draw and got a keep. His test was simple: take care of the keep. He ended up slaughtering the keep's staff so that they wouldn't starve, so failed the test pretty badly.

suhkkaet
2011-10-07, 05:26 AM
The third test (failed), was that the Xaositect party member had made a Deck of Many Things draw and got a keep. His test was simple: take care of the keep. He ended up slaughtering the keep's staff so that they wouldn't starve, so failed the test pretty badly.

...PC logic, it's flawless, isn't it? :P