Battle Sorcerer question

[noparlpf]

I have some questions involving this variant:
1. Does anybody see any reason why this variant couldn't be applied to the UA generic Spellcaster?
2. For another recent debate, is there any reason this cannot be used in conjunction with the Stalwart Sorcerer variant?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, you can make a Battle Stalwart Sorcerer. Though why you'd want to, I don't know. Normal sorcerers are plenty durable all on their own!

[Hirax]

Stalwart battle sorcerer isn't as bad as people make it out to be. You're getting a d8+2 from it each level, which is equivalent to d12s. If you want to be a gish it gets plenty of spells, and the medium BAB is very helpful for pre reqs.

[Big Fau]

Stalwart battle sorcerer isn't as bad as people make it out to be. You're getting a d8+2 from it each level, which is equivalent to d12s. If you want to be a gish it gets plenty of spells, and the medium BAB is very helpful for pre reqs.

The problem is you lose spells known. You end up with only 1 9th level spell, and that means you are even further behind the rest of Tier 2 (seeing as most of Tier 2 has actual class features beyond 1st level).

WotC dramatically overrated BAB and HP.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The problem is you lose spells known. You end up with only 1 9th level spell, and that means you are even further behind the rest of Tier 2 (seeing as most of Tier 2 has actual class features beyond 1st level).

WotC dramatically overrated BAB and HP.

True; but I think a quick dirty fix like this would put them more to par with other Tier 2's

Bab: 3/4
Spell Known: As Favoured Soul
HD: d6
Simple weapon proficiencies and 1 martial, anyone.
Ecletic lerning every level they get an even spell level (2,4,6,8)

[Hirax]

A gish probably isn't going to get level 9 spells anyway on a sorcerer chassis, it would mean you'd need to stick to full caster progression classes generally, since you can only lose 2 caster levels if you even want to get to level 9 spells. For someone that just wants to cast heroism, polymorph, or other buff spells, it gets plenty of spells known. Which is a tier lowering sort of outlook, but that might be fine for certain characters. If you didn't want to play some sort of gish or melee character you're definitely better off not using either variant, though.

[Essence_of_War]

A gish probably isn't going to get level 9 spells anyway on a sorcerer chassis

Uhhh....doesn't the usual Sorcadin get 9th level spells?:smallamused:

[noparlpf]

I still haven't seen any responses to my first question...that's the one I was less sure of to start with anyway.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well by RAW you can't use battle sorcerer with generic spellcaster, since it isn't a sorcerer.

[Cog]

Why would you want to? Either you're trying to bring class-related stuff into a generics game, which goes against the point of using the generics, or you're trying to bring generic material into a standard-classes game, where it's simply more powerful than equivalent options.

[noparlpf]

Well obviously by RAW it doesn't work. That's why I'm asking "does anybody see any reason it wouldn't work"? To me, "does it work" is a question of game balance, not a question of RAW.

I would want to simply so that generic classes could offer a more viable gish option. The caster they provide is entirely focused on casting. Low HD, low BaB, and no weapon proficiencies?

[Hirax]

Eh, as long as you're not planning on multiclassing I wouldn't feel uncomfortable asking your DM, but I wouldn't bank on approval.

[Cog]

The caster they provide is entirely focused on casting.
Casting off the three strongest spell lists in the game. You might not have the chassis of a gish, but your spells can make up for that even more than usual. As far as I see it, there's no problem to fix.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you apply Stalwart Sorcerer's drawback first, it actually doesn't reduce your spells known at all making it grossly unfair. Here's a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer's spells known and spells per day, applying Battle Sorcerer's drawback first, before Stalwart Sorcerer's drawback, so it actually applies. Choose your spells known carefully, including your repicks at the even-numbered levels.


Spells per day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - -
3 5 4 - - - - - - - -
4 5 5 2 - - - - - - -
5 5 5 3 - - - - - - -
6 5 5 4 2 - - - - - -
7 5 5 5 3 - - - - - -
8 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - -
9 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - -
10 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - -
11 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - -
12 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - -
13 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - -
14 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - -
15 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - -
16 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 -
17 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 -
18 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2
19 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
20 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4

Spells known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 2 1 - - - - - - - -
2 3 1 - - - - - - - -
3 4 1 - - - - - - - -
4 5 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
6 6 2 1 1 - - - - - -
7 6 4 1 1 - - - - - -
8 7 4 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 7 4 3 1 1 - - - - -
10 8 4 3 1 1 1 - - - -
11 8 4 4 3 1 1 - - - -
12 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 - - -
13 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 - - -
14 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 - -
15 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 - -
16 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 -
17 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 -
18 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

Note that you could get a Bloodline feat, detailed in Dragon magazines 311, 325, and 335, to gain a set list of nine additional spells known, one of each level. The best choices IMO would be Earth (311), Penumbra (325), Necromantic (325), Fey (311), and Draconic (311) if you pick an earth subtype dragon. Note that the Bloodline feats require that you be able to summon a familiar, so if you get the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2 you'll need to spend another feat on Obtain Familiar. You may as well get Improved Familiar in any case, probably for an Outsider that you can share a (Draconic) Polymorph with. Be sure to get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), too.

I'd probably go something like Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 7/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 8. Throw in two or four levels of Incantatrix to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist your buffs, or get one Sacred Exorcist level and use Illumian to Naenhoon: Persist two buffs per day. I'd use (Desert) Kobold with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Loredrake if possible for this. Otherwise the +0 LA Aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), for which you can wait forever to (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) spend a level on the +1 LA and other racial benefits, is ideal for its Cha bonus and Outsider creature type.

[hex0]

Note that you could get a Bloodline feat, detailed in Dragon magazines 311, 325, and 335, to gain a set list of nine additional spells known, one of each level.

If you don't have access to Dragon Mag stuff, there is also Draconic Legacy.

[Cog]

The Dragon Magazine bloodlines were gathered in the Dragon Compendium, and given the comment about dragon subtypes, were changed by more than their prerequisites (they only spontaneous arcane scasting there, without the need for a familiar). Given that the Compendium is both a more recent printing and actually a book, it's probably going to be the preferred version if you have access to it.

[Big Fau]

If you don't have access to Dragon Mag stuff, there is also Draconic Legacy.

Dragonic Legacy is garbage though. 5 feats for 3 spells. Most Sorcerers won't get that until 12th if they aren't Human/don't have access to Flaws.

[hex0]

Dragonic Legacy is garbage though. 5 feats for 3 spells. Most Sorcerers won't get that until 12th if they aren't Human/don't have access to Flaws.

Didnt say it didnt suck, just that it exists. :smallwink:

There is also a prc that hands out draconic feats for free.

[Tenebris]

For Lord Ao's sake, why anyone would want more spells known for the Battle Sorcerer? You'll burn your spell slots on Spell Shield ACF and Arcane Strike feat. All you cast is Greater Mighty Wallop & Wraithstrike (preferably persisted). Somehow get pounce, combine with the Leap Attack, and you are done. Well, at least I see it that way.

[Acanous]

Honestly if someone's going Stalwart Battle Sorceror, they're doing it for low-level survivability. Grab the prereq feats and go Mage of the Arcane Order into Legacy Champion. You keep your 9th level spells, can spell pool as much as you want, and you get a shiny new weapon.

[Grim Reader]

I am unsure how a Battle Stalwart Sorcerers hp-bonus and spells known-penalties mix with PrCs that advance spellcasting.

But if you do go for the Battle Stalwart, a Bloodline feat, and a 1-level dip into Sand Shaper should give you plenty of spells.

[Runestar]

I am unsure how a Battle Stalwart Sorcerers hp-bonus and spells known-penalties mix with PrCs that advance spellcasting.

But if you do go for the Battle Stalwart, a Bloodline feat, and a 1-level dip into Sand Shaper should give you plenty of spells.

My take is that the extra hp applies only to sorc lvs. Prcs shouldn't count.

Spells known would apply as normal. Bottom line, it doesn't multiclass well.

My opinion? You have already shot yourself in one foot taking the battle sorc, and are not shooting yourself in the other by going stalwart sorc. :smallyuk:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could just completely ignore the drawbacks of Stalwart+Battle with a Spellhoarding Kobold...