Wizard // Archivist suggestions

[StormTAG]

Yup. I'm making Wizard // Archivists gestalt. Yeah, I know it's not the most super-optimum choice but it really fits the theme of the character. The character was a priest until he got run out of his lands and became something of a scholar and now adventures with his childhood friends in search of forgotten lore and to conquer the villains of their pasts.

I'm imagining a guy who carries around 5-6 books, all scribed himself and is the guy who is always the first to say, "Oh hey! I know about this!"

So, all that being said, I don't want to have a character who isn't useful though (I'm pretty sure that's impossible with this combo unless I pick really bad spells but...) and I'm not really very experienced running Wizards OR Divine casters really. I've done some of the buff n' heal on the Cleric side, but that's about it.

This character will not need to be worried too much about healing, since another character in the party is going to be doing a Crusader and/or Paladin // Cleric. He'll be mostly focused on wailing in combat and will be able to use most of his prepared spells to spontaneously cast healing if need be.

So, really, my biggest question comes to spell selection. With a whole heap of spells to choose on either side, I want to make sure I have enough to cover all the bases. Blasting spells, buffing spells, utility spells, etc.

I was definitely thinking of specializing on the Wizard side, since the Archivist side will allow me to cover a lot of the short comings. I don't see him becoming a Necromancer, since he's strongly Good aligned. Divination would fit thematically but I'm not tied to it.

The Loremaster PrC fits thematically but it doesn't seem like it's very good. :\ I'm not looking to make this guy into a Gish, so PrCs that focus on that are probably out. The Archivist has a lot of neat special abilities, so I'd probably focus mostly on the Wizard side for PrCs, since I can only do one PrC at a time. Focused Specialist into Master Specialist might work. Archmage seems solid. What other good PrCs are out there?

TL;DR: I'm playing a Gestalt Wizard//Archivist. What are good spells? What are some good options?

[DeAnno]

Favor of the Martyr (Paladin 4, SC) makes you immune to daze and synergizes extremely well with Celerity (Sor/Wiz 4, PHBII), and with a full caster on each side you'll have enough spell slots to really be spamming Celerity more than a usual character could.

You also qualify for the Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) PRC easily and without Southern Magician hijinx, so that may be worth looking into.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11928524&postcount=3) may let you scribe Wizard scrolls as Divine and then learn them with your Archivist, though as one character it could be tricksy RAWwise.

[hex0]

You may want to be a focused and master specialist on the wizard side.

[StormTAG]

@DeAnno

Problem with Dweomerkeeper is I need the Magic domain. What would be a good way to pick that up? If I picked up Domain Wizard, Magic, I could pull it off but then I wouldn't get to specialize. Any other ideas?

It looks handy though, especially the capstone ability. :) Any suggestions on spells to use in the mantle?

As far as the scroll trick, I could certainly use it with the Cleric in the party to add any cleric spells I need to the list. Assuming the DM was okay with the trick though, he would need to find someone who can scribe divine scrolls scrolls and use them add to the archivists list. Although, that's not super important since he could just cast them as regular old Arcane spells. xD

@hex0

That's definitely something I was considering. Any suggestions on schools to use/ban? I'll be playing this character from a low-ish level so I don't want to ban anything to important.

[Qwertystop]

He'll be mostly focused on wailing in combat...

I want to see a build based on this. That works.

[Hirax]

How high do you think it will go? If you want to take the don't die, ever route, you could go abjurer2/master specialist7/initiate of the sevenfold veil7

[erikun]

Remember that more than one character can contribute to item creation, including Scribe Scroll. This means that your Wizard//Archivist (with Scribe Scroll as a free 1st level feat) can work with the Crusader//Cleric to create divine scrolls of any Cleric spell, which your Archivist can then scribe into his spellbook.

Remember that gestault typically means you cannot take two prestige classes at the same level, so you'll likely prestige only on one side (likely Wizard, to retain the thematic Lore ability).

Loremaster is pretty good, but not amazing. It's better than base Wizard, but that's about it. Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) is a better PrC, probably quite fitting for your character and giving you immunity to surprise at the end. It can also be taken as either a Wizard or as an Archivist base.

A specialist Wizard can be pretty good, especially with Archivist covering your lost Wizard spell list. You are more likely to use Wizard necromancy than Archivist necromancy unless you plan on raising dead, so consider that. The Cleric's spell list covers most of the Abjuration you could want from the Wizard's spell list, so that is a consideration. Enchantment is another option to drop, unless you have a particular like of Charm Person.

[StormTAG]

@QwertyStop

Cleric buffs with Crusader and Paladin fighting? Wouldn't seem overly difficult to process to me. :) Buff up with Cleric buffs, go to town with maneuvers and/or smiting.

Something like...

Cloistered Cleric 20 // Paladin 4 / Crusader 1 / Ruby Knight 10 / Whatever +5

Would be pretty solid, don't you think? You'd have Cleric Buffs, Paladin Buffs, Maneuvers and lots of Swift Actions to use them with. :) Probably could do something interesting with those last 5 levels. All else fails, 5 more crusader to pick up IL 18 and 9th level Maneuvers.

Full disclosure: I'm going to be running all the characters in this party, so that is exactly the build I more or less had in mind.


@Hirax I've never really played high levels before. How would the combo you mentioned work?

[StormTAG]

@erikun

Yeah, definitely planed to use that trick to ensure my Archivist had whatever cleric spells he needed. The two characters are very close and such an exchange would be very thematic.

I'll definitely have to go through the spell lists of each class and determine which spells the Archivist can cover for. I'll also look at the Divine Oracle. Seems pretty thematic for a information-nut. :)

[Hirax]

Initiate of the sevenfold veil can put up wards to protect themself from enemies. They're very powerful and are apt to make you the least attractive target. The capstone veil at level 7 makes it so you can't be targeted by spells, and anyone that wants to engage you in melee needs to get through the veils and make a will save or be teleported to a random location on a random plane. You'll also be very, very good at dispelling the magic of others, and it will be incredibly hard for other casters to dispel any of your abjuration spells.

[erikun]

@QwertyStop

Cleric buffs with Crusader and Paladin fighting? Wouldn't seem overly difficult to process to me. :) Buff up with Cleric buffs, go to town with maneuvers and/or smiting.

Something like...

Cloistered Cleric 20 // Paladin 4 / Crusader 1 / Ruby Knight 10 / Whatever +5
Cloistered Cleric 19/Prestige Paladin 1 // Crusader X + prestige would probably work better, although your build would be nice if Prestige Paladin wasn't allowed. I'd wonder about qualifying for Ruby Knight with only Paladin 4, as it is clearly only qualifying for Ruby Knight through the Cleric spellcasting.


I'll definitely have to go through the spell lists of each class and determine which spells the Archivist can cover for.
What level are you starting out? For the Wizard, Sleep, Color Spray, and Enlarge Person are good first-level spells. Glitterdust, Web, Scorching Ray, Invisibility, and Alter Self are good second-level spells.

[HunterOfJello]

A Guide to Wizards: Playing a GOD (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0)

Lowest Level Versions of Spells (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells)

Archivist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ti05m6dbtn9gdfsbpm5b6pqqi6&topic=3545.0)

BrilliantGameologist's Handbook List (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0)


I'm not even going to try and start listing spells. That's your burden to try and deal with. You can have fun working your ass off looking through every spell to pick which ones you like.

~

The only suggestions I will make are this:

-Drop one spellcaster side for a spontaneous caster if you get tired of constantly looking up new spells. The Archivist side is more intense in the spell selection, but also more fun imo.

-If you are starting at a level above 5, give it up. You are going to have way too much work to do.

-Expect to be able to destroy everything you ever encounter without the smallest bit of effort.

-I would turn the wizard to a Focused Specialist Evoker and stock up on evocation spells for that side. This will decrease the number of spells you have to look up for the wizard side and make your character more fun for you and other players.

-PRC the freak out of the wizard but leave the archivist alone till after level 11 at least. Archivists get really awesome class features and aren't really worth dropping.

[StormTAG]

@ hirax

Cool. I'll have to look that up. :)

@erikun

Paladin 4/Crusader 1 will let you get into RKV by itself. Also, going doing a combination of Crusader, Prestige Paladin and Cleric doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. RKV gives you divine spell levels, so mixing it with Cleric levels seems like a waste, since you can only advance a class's spells one per level. (Other wise, every one would take double spell level progression on both sides of the Gestalt and be throwing epic level spells by level 15 or so. xD)

Also, I'm not sure what level I'll be starting at yet. Probably not super high. Likely no higher than 5th or 6th

@HunterOfJello

Sounds like a challenge! ;) I've read most of those handbooks, just was hoping some people might have good suggestions when paired with an Archivist.

I appreciate your tips though. Things to consider if it becomes too overwhelming! As for the last one, that was my basic idea. Since I can only advance in a PrC on one side anyway, it totally makes sense. :) Any suggestions on PrCs that mesh well mechanically or thematically?

[HunterOfJello]

I appreciate your tips though. Things to consider if it becomes too overwhelming! As for the last one, that was my basic idea. Since I can only advance in a PrC on one side anyway, it totally makes sense. :) Any suggestions on PrCs that mesh well mechanically or thematically?

Mechanically, going into the Geomancer becomes significantly easier to access as a wizard//archivist. It's mainly good to grab a higher bab progression along with the ability to cast spells in armor. Some of the Drift abilities are pretty cool, but they really belong in another class' list.

Dweomerkeeper is one of the most powerful PrCs in the game and can be accessed easily by a wizard//archivist. If you take a 1 level dip during your archivist progression into either Cleric, Contemplative at level 12, or find some other way to gain the Magic Domain. There probably is a way to do it earlier than 12 without losing spell progression, but i'm not sure what it is.

Mage of the Arcane Order is a great PrC for focused specialists. You gain bonus metamagic feats and can convert prepared spells into all sorts of other spells from your guild's "Spellpool".

[hex0]

Usually theurge classes are a no go for gestalt.

[candycorn]

I'd stagger one class. Since he started off priest?

Archivist 20 // Warblade 1 / Wizard X

Blends in with the know it all thing, and provides some extra HP at low level...
and has full BAB.

[erikun]

Paladin 4/Crusader 1 will let you get into RKV by itself.
Huh, so it does. I thought it required 2nd level spellcasting for entry. I guess it works out a lot better than I would have thought.


and has full BAB.
I would not count on a DM using this particular interpretation of BAB in gestalt. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee that a DM wouldn't.

You can always try, assuming you don't mind books being thrown and accusations of munchkinry.

[StormTAG]

@Candycorn

As a DM I would always play with the fractional BAB rule. Getting full progression by trying to stagger casting classes would be met with what erikun is suggesting: Thrown books. ;)

@erikun

Yup. Plus with Cleric at level1, I can get a much broader access to Devotion/Divine feats to use for all that tasty positive energy.

With Battle Blessing, Quicken Spell and Martial Boosts, I'll have a silly amount of things to do with the RKV's extra swift actions. Though, if your DM allowed Prestige Paladin and Battle Blessing to make your Cleric Spells auto-hasted, well... Prestige Paladin/Cleric/Crusader shuffling to ensure full progression would be pretty amazing.

Crusader/Cleric
Crusader/Cleric
Crusader/Cleric
Crusader/Cleric (Meet prereqs here. Some DMs might force you to wait another level)
Crusader/Paladin
Paladin/Cleric
Crusader/Paladin
Paladin/Cleric
Crusader/Paladin
RKV/Cleric
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Cleric
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader
RKV/Crusader

20th level Initiator with loads of bonus maneuvers and stances. 20th level Cleric spells, with Paladin spells mixed in. Battle Blessing would (as cheesy as this is) allow you to auto-quicken most of them. RKV lets you get silly amounts of swift actions. You could probably cheese this even further by swaping the last eight levels of Crusader for something else. Mix in fighter for more feats?

Yeah. Again, throwing of books.

@hex0

Which class are you suggesting is Theurge? RKV? I could kind of see that but it's a very different fluff and flavor, not to mention all of its unique abilities. DM's approval on that one but if I were DMing, I'd probably allow it so long as they didn't try to go crazy with the other half of the progression.

That's why my build was Cleric list on one side, Paladin list on the other. You could take either side and play them individually and they would be okay.

@HunterOfJello

Dweomerkeeper does look super spiffy. Totally fits thematically too as the whole "Sage who studies magic in all its forms." Easiest way to get in would be Domain Wizard, wouldn't it? I would lose specializing but TBH, that's more in flavor too.

[Qwertystop]

@QwertyStop

Cleric buffs with Crusader and Paladin fighting? Wouldn't seem overly difficult to process to me. :) Buff up with Cleric buffs, go to town with maneuvers and/or smiting.

That has nothing to do with what I quoted. My point was that you said "wailing". That means crying-screaming-shreiking.

That is what I wanted to see a build on. Wailing in combat.

[Ravens_cry]

That has nothing to do with what I quoted. My point was that you said "wailing". That means crying-screaming-shreiking.

That is what I wanted to see a build on. Wailing in combat.
Wailing also means "raining repeated blows", and by blows I mean hits.
But if you insist, a Bard with Preform:Lyre , mayhap (http://www.asterix.com/encyclopedia/characters/cacofonix.html)?

[StormTAG]

That has nothing to do with what I quoted. My point was that you said "wailing". That means crying-screaming-shreiking.

That is what I wanted to see a build on. Wailing in combat.

Ah. My bad... Here are three equally silly answers! :D

1) Wizard 20, Necromancy Focus. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wail_of_the_Banshee

2) Misspelled Whaling. Sorry for the typo!

3) :P

[flabort]

Would Artificer//Archivist fit the "Know everything" theme better than Wizard//archivist? It seems to me that it would, but then, I've had little/no experience with Artificer.

[candycorn]

@Candycorn

As a DM I would always play with the fractional BAB rule. Getting full progression by trying to stagger casting classes would be met with what erikun is suggesting: Thrown books. ;)


Hey, I'm just going by the rules for the game. Besides, this is hardly worth a book throwing. BAB 10 vs 15, or even 10 vs 20... is frankly pretty minor, compared to, say... Cooperative crafting with an artificer to get an archivist every spell ever...

Or prestige paladin to give free quickened spells to an archivist.

BAB doesn't do that much. It's a nice number, but it's highly overvalued by the game system. Give a fighter a BAB of 50, and a caster 4th level spells, and the caster wins. Heck, the caster probably wins with 3rd level spells.

Equating Full BAB exploits to quintuple 9's and RKV abuse? It's like giving the same punishment to the kid that takes a pack of gum from the store, and the guy that fleeces the world for 4 trillion dollars in a massive ponzi scheme.

[erikun]

Given how lauded Divine Power is for Clerics, I don't buy the "BAB is minor" excuse. What's more, if BAB was really as insignificant as claimed, then there wouldn't be any reason for delaying Wizard spellcasting for even one level to achieve it.

[HunterOfJello]

Would Artificer//Archivist fit the "Know everything" theme better than Wizard//archivist? It seems to me that it would, but then, I've had little/no experience with Artificer.

Artificer//Archivist probably is better.

However, an optimized Artificer//Archivist is:

1. hard to say
2. requires knowledge of EVERY spell in the game
3. requires adequate knowledge of EVERY magical item in the game
4. would be a pain in the ass to every play because they have way too many freaking options at any given moment in time
5. would be the most complicated combo ever

~~~~~~~~~~~~

To me, that combination sounds like enrolling in both Law School and Medical School for a PhD at the same time. It's just way too much to handle at once.


BAB doesn't do that much. It's a nice number, but it's highly overvalued by the game system. Give a fighter a BAB of 50, and a caster 4th level spells, and the caster wins. Heck, the caster probably wins with 3rd level spells.

This is sadly true.

Just using the PHB and PHB2 a melee character can move next to a wizard, attempt a series of 50 melee attacks, and the wizard will just teleport 10 feet away to a space completely out of the melee character's range.

That's not to say the melee character will be inefficient in a party alongside the wizard, but the way that full attacks and bab work just doesn't match up with how spellcasting and ranged attacks work in the game (although ranged attacks are nerfed even worse than melee).