Sneak Attack and Use Magic Device

[GunbladeKnight]

Anyone know the ruling on, say, using a wand of Melf's acid arrow when you qualify for a sneak attack? Do you get the bonus damage, or not because it's an item and not a spell cast by you?

And since CLW is technically a touch attack, can you get extra positive energy "damage" to heal people (or negative energy to heal undead with inflict)? It seems like it could be an exploit for lots of extra healing.

[Urpriest]

You don't make the arrows that come out of a bow from your own bones. You still get sneak attack. Same principle.

Healing doesn't get sneak attack, but negative energy generally does, see Complete Arcane.

[skycycle blues]

The general rule is that you could add Sneak Attack damage to anything involving an attack role.

So, wand of Melf's, yes.

A wand of Magic Missile, no.

Cure Light Wounds and Inflict Light Wounds have a touch range, but actually have Will saves, so they wouldn't work.

And if Cure Light Wounds did work, it wouldn't actually do anything because you can't have extra sneak attack damage on something that can't do damage.

[GunbladeKnight]

And if Cure Light Wounds did work, it wouldn't actually do anything because you can't have extra sneak attack damage on something that can't do damage.

Was going to say Ray of Enfeeblement, but then realized that was strength damage with added negative energy damage applied. Question, then: Does Ray of Enfeeblement with SA heal undead?

[HunterOfJello]

First of all, precision damage from weaponlike spells do the same type of damage as the spell normally does. If a spell specifically does ability damage, ability drain, or it bestows negative levels then it does negative energy damage instead (Rules Compendium p136).

It's also worth noting that the conditions for precision damage during a sneak attack still need to be present when doing a sneak attack with a weaponlike spell.

For a spell completion device like a scroll or a lesser schema, the spell that is cast functions in the exact same manner as if it was cast normally by a spellcaster and not through an item. I don't see a description of spell trigger items that mirrors the description of spell completion items, but I think they are still valid for using precision damage and therefore sneak attacks. A common favorite for savvy rogues is to always have a pair of Gloves of the Uldra Savant somewhere on them just in case.

Another thing worth noting is that a standard action spell that has attack rolls on multiple targets such as Scorching Ray only does precision damage on one of the targets since it is a standard action. The same "standard action = precision damage only once" rule applies to most attacks, although your DM may allow exceptions. I'm not sure if the rules are different from spells that take full-round actions to complete. Your DM may allow those to do some nice sneak attack damage on each attack.

[Siosilvar]

Cure Light Wounds and Inflict Light Wounds have a touch range, but actually have Will saves, so they wouldn't work.

And if Cure Light Wounds did work, it wouldn't actually do anything because you can't have extra sneak attack damage on something that can't do damage.

They do work. Will saves have nothing to do with requiring a touch attack or not.

You are correct in that CLW does NOT heal additional damage with a "sneak attack", because you'd have to be dealing damage in the first place.

EDIT:

Another thing worth noting is that a standard action spell that has attack rolls on multiple targets such as Scorching Ray only does precision damage on one of the targets since it is a standard action. The same "standard action = precision damage only once" rule applies to most attacks, although your DM may allow exceptions. I'm not sure if the rules are different from spells that take full-round actions to complete. Your DM may allow those to do some nice sneak attack damage on each attack.

The rule isn't "standard action gets precision damage only once", it's "volley attacks get precision damage only once". Manyshot, Scorching Ray, etc. all are "fired simultaneously" and thus are volley attacks. Magic Missile is, too, but you can't get precision damage with it because it has no attack roll. Improved Manyshot gets precision damage multiple times because it says it does.

[HunterOfJello]

Was going to say Ray of Enfeeblement, but then realized that was strength damage with added negative energy damage applied. Question, then: Does Ray of Enfeeblement with SA heal undead?

Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness apply a "penalty" to strength and dexterity respectively and therefore don't qualify to do negative energy damage.

Ray of Stupidity does Intelligence damage and would apply except that it's a mind-affecting spell that the undead are already immune to.


The rule isn't "standard action gets precision damage only once", it's "volley attacks get precision damage only once". Manyshot, Scorching Ray, etc. all are "fired simultaneously" and thus are volley attacks. Magic Missile is, too, but you can't get precision damage with it because it has no attack roll. Improved Manyshot gets precision damage multiple times because it says it does.

I did make a mistake in writing that, although it isn't the one you're attempting to point out. The rule from the Rules Compendium is that:

"A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat standard
action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group."

Any action that isn't a full-round action only get to have precision damage applied on the first attack. The word 'volley' isn't mentioned in the Rules Compendium although I think I've heard it mentioned in other sources.

As you mentioned, there are are, of course, exceptions to the rule which are specifically defined in feat descriptions or attack descriptions, but those do not define the rules. They are simply examples of specific > general. I can see how the ideas about 'volleys' versus multiple attacks fired at the same time could have developed, but that's not what's stated in the Rules Compendium that I have been quoting from. The RC draws the line based on the action type and that's about it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness apply a "penalty" to strength and dexterity respectively and therefore don't qualify to do negative energy damage.

Ray of Stupidity does Intelligence damage and would apply except that it's a mind-affecting spell that the undead are already immune to.

Not to mention Undead are immune to Ability Damage and Sneak Attack anyway.

[ericgrau]

What if you got gravestrike and some feat that lets you affect undead with mind affecting spells?

But even then I don't think sneak attack applies to healing, just like crits don't.

[NNescio]

They do work. Will saves have nothing to do with requiring a touch attack or not.

You are correct in that CLW does NOT heal additional damage with a "sneak attack", because you'd have to be dealing damage in the first place.

To elaborate, a weaponlike spell only requires two criteria; the spell must require an attack roll, and it must deal damage. Negative levels also count as damage. Whether the spell provide a save or not is irrelevant, and Page 85 of the Complete Arcane explicitly mentions Disintegrate as a weaponlike spell.

If you use a touch spell as a touch attack, and if the spell deals damage, then it qualifies as a weaponlike spell and hence SA can be applied. As such, you can SA with Inflict Light Wounds on most living creatures, and you can even do the same with Cure Light Wounds on undead creatures should you manage to bypass their SA immunity, as they take damage. You cannot SA to heal more HP with either of these spells though, as they no longer deal any damage when used that way.

[dextercorvia]

The rule isn't "standard action gets precision damage only once", it's "volley attacks get precision damage only once". Manyshot, Scorching Ray, etc. all are "fired simultaneously" and thus are volley attacks. Magic Missile is, too, but you can't get precision damage with it because it has no attack roll. Improved Manyshot gets precision damage multiple times because it says it does.

There are actually two rules in play here. A spell that allows multiple attacks, only deals SA on the first attack. This is from CA. If you have a way to get more than one attack as anything less than a full round action, then you only get SA on the first attack. This rule is in RC. They sometimes overlap, but they each cover cases that the other does not.

[HunterOfJello]

Not to mention Undead are immune to Ability Damage and Sneak Attack anyway.

I thought that Undead were immune to all Ability Damage too until I just looked up their entries in MM1 and MM5. Undead are specifically have "Immunity to ability damage to [their] physical ability scores." So, Ray of Stupidity would work on them.

However, you did successfully point out my personal idiocy in reminding me that they are also immune to sneak attack damage. Thank you for pointing that out.

[NNescio]

I thought that Undead were immune to all Ability Damage too until I just looked up their entries in MM1 and MM5. Undead are specifically have "Immunity to ability damage to [their] physical ability scores." So, Ray of Stupidity would work on them.

However, you did successfully point out my personal idiocy in reminding me that they are also immune to sneak attack damage. Thank you for pointing that out.

Ray of Stupidity is [Mind-Affecting] though.

[HunterOfJello]

Ray of Stupidity is [Mind-Affecting] though.

Crap! I forgot about that now! I even mentioned that reason in a post above here.

Lets pretend that I mentioned something about Song of the Undead metamagic in the above post...

[stainboy]

Does a "natural" Intelligence 0 make you immune to Intelligence damage? Because the point of this is probably to heal pet skeletons or zombies, and if they're immune to Int damage then you still can't Gravestrike sneak attack your own zombies to heal them with you know what never mind who cares.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Does a "natural" Intelligence 0 make you immune to Intelligence damage? Because the point of this is probably to heal pet skeletons or zombies, and if they're immune to Int damage then you still can't Gravestrike sneak attack your own zombies to heal them with you know what never mind who cares.

They don't have 0 Int, they have - Int which is totally different. And they are still immune to it because its Mind Effecting

[erikun]

You are correct in that CLW does NOT heal additional damage with a "sneak attack", because you'd have to be dealing damage in the first place.

What if you got gravestrike and some feat that lets you affect undead with mind affecting spells?
A wand of Cure Light Wounds plus Gravestrike should, I believe, deal additional damage to the undead it hits, much like a wand of Cause Light Wounds would deal additional damage to a normal target. Still no sneak attack healing, though.


Does a "natural" Intelligence 0 make you immune to Intelligence damage?
In a way, yes. They don't have an Intelligence score, and so they just can't take Intelligence damage. Their immunity has nothing to do with lacking an intelligence score, although if you could affect an undead with a [Mind-Affecting] spell it still wouldn't do anything due to their lacking Intelligence.