More Ill-Placed Core Class Love

[No brains]

I was wondering... if the core fighter could swap out each of their bonus feats each day, to what tier would they rise? They could probably hit three...

[dextercorvia]

If they are still required to pick them from the Fighter list, then Tier 4 tops. Binders and Incarnates and Totemists have more interesting things they can switch out every day.

[Kenneth]

that would not do anything at all to effect the 'tier' the fighter is in

[Hirax]

It would make fighters a more tempting dip, but while floating feats are nice, I don't think it would move the fighter up a tier.

[Hiro Protagonest]

that would not do anything at all to effect the 'tier' the fighter is in

Er, it kinda would. You could be a tripper/taunt/BCF build with a spiked chain one day, then charge the enemy for massive damage the next.

But it would only be tier 4.

[Lateral]

I was wondering... if the core fighter could swap out each of their bonus feats each day, to what tier would they rise? They could probably hit three...

I don't know about tier 3- feats aren't spells, swapping them out 1/day doesn't give you nearly as much versatility as preparing spells does. Taking a page from Tome of Battle, swapping all of their feats 1/encounter would probably push them into high tier 4-ish; you could get some crazy versatility that way. You'd still have a horrible lack of out-of-combat usefulness, though; you'd probably also want to push skill points up to 4+int and add some actual class features.

Also, to prevent Fighter 2 from becoming the greatest dip that ever existed, allow them to trade 1/day at level 3 and 1/encounter at level 7 or 9. (Put Class features on off-levels, so you don't have so many dead levels.)

[Hirax]

Er, it kinda would. You could be a tripper/taunt/BCF build with a spiked chain one day, then charge the enemy for massive damage the next.


How is that useful unless you know what you're going to face though? And what if one feat array is useful against one encounter, but, not another? It helps, but looking at what else is in tier 4, I wouldn't place it in there.


Taking a page from Tome of Battle, swapping all of their feats 1/encounter would probably push them into high tier 4-ish; you could get some crazy versatility that way. You'd still have a horrible lack of out-of-combat usefulness, though; you'd probably also want to push skill points up to 4+int and add some actual class features.

Also, to prevent Fighter 2 from becoming the greatest dip that ever existed, allow them to trade 1/day at level 3 and 1/encounter at level 7 or 9.

I like these.

[Lateral]

How is that useful unless you know what you're going to face though? And what if one feat array is useful against one encounter, but, not another? It helps, but looking at what else is in tier 4, I wouldn't place it in there.
It would help, though, especially at early levels when you don't have enough feats with high-level requirements to really specialize in any one thing. At higher levels, a more versatile method of change would be needed, yes.

[Glimbur]

You'll also have issues because your gear isn't so easy to change. A +1 Valorous Greatsword isn't super effective for tripping, for example, despite being pretty decent for charging.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You'll also have issues because your gear isn't so easy to change. A +1 Valorous Greatsword isn't super effective for tripping, for example, despite being pretty decent for charging.

But a spiked chain is good for both. Average of one less damage than the greatsword, but still two-handed. Plus you don't provoke an AoO from guys with 10 ft reach.

[faceroll]

If they are still required to pick them from the Fighter list, then Tier 4 tops. Binders and Incarnates and Totemists have more interesting things they can switch out every day.

Martial Study is a fighter feat.

[Big Fau]

Martial Study is a fighter feat.

Oh boy, three maneuvers known! Now the Crusader can point at someone and laugh because they have a worse maneuvers known progression than he does!

[Curious]

I think a good thing to combine with this houserule would be something someone mentioned in another thread, giving Fighters the ability to ignore 1 prerequisite when choosing feats. This would allow them to ignore a lot of feat taxes and go right for the good ones.

[Big Fau]

I think a good thing to combine with this houserule would be something someone mentioned in another thread, giving Fighters the ability to ignore 1 prerequisite when choosing feats. This would allow them to ignore a lot of feat taxes and go right for the good ones.

Well, then the problem becomes "This class is based around feats, and all of it's class features are related to those feats". Which is rather dull.

Feats are something everyone gets, and making a class that is dedicated to feats means that people will be tempted to dip into it even more than they all ready do. I feel that any Fighter fix should attempt to minimize how much other classes want to dip Fighter X just for a few feats.


That, and the fact that the feats themselves usually suck.

[Incanur]

Sounds like solid tier-4 material to me.

[BlueInc]

I posted a similar thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216066).

General consensus was in Core it's still tier 5, with splatbook access it rises to tier 4, maybe low tier 3 with ToB allowed.

[hex0]

But a spiked chain is good for both. Average of one less damage than the greatsword, but still two-handed. Plus you don't provoke an AoO from guys with 10 ft reach.

Oh spiked chain, when do you ever suck?

never.

Edit: Kensai variant spiked chain wielder would hold up decent (almost tier 4?) Not core! >.<

[Killer Angel]

You'd still have a horrible lack of out-of-combat usefulness, though;

Altough, when facing a city adventure, feats like skill focus, persuasive, negotiator and so on, may help a little...

(edit: obviously, I'm not reasoning about "fighter's feat bonus" only)

[hewhosaysfish]

Oh spiked chain, when do you ever suck?


Only one someone tries to explain how you would actually fight with one.
Or draws a picture of one.

[Fouredged Sword]

Class features preposed

level 1 -feat
level 2 -feat
level 3 -Versitile fighter (1/day)
level 4 -feat
level 5 -Versitile Fighter (2/day)
level 6 -feat - Fighter Grip 1
level 7 -Will of Iron
level 8 -feat
level 9 -Medium armor mastery
level 10-feat
level 11-Versitile Fighter (1/encouter)
level 12-feat - Fighter Grip 2
level 13-Versitile Fighter (2/encouter)
level 14-feat
level 15-Will of Steel
level 16-feat
level 17-Retrain feats
level 18-feat - Fighter Grip 3
level 19-heavy Armor mastery
level 20-Adamant Will

Versitile Fighter - A fighter learns to adapt on the fly to encounters. At 3rd level a fighter can reasign a feat to any other feat that he currently qualifies for. You can't use Versitile Fighter to aquire a feat that you have traded away a prerequisite feat. At the end of the encounter the feat returns to it's natural asignment. This is a free action to use. At 5th level this power can be used an aditional time per day. At 11th level this ability can be used an aditional once per encounter. At 13th level this ability can be used 2 times per encounter.

Will of Iron - A level 7 fighter can make a willsave useing his fortitude save a number of times per day = to his con modifier, min 1.

Medium Armor Mastery - At 9th level a fighter no loger takes any penelties to dextarity to AC, skill checks, attack rolls, or movement for whearing medium or light armor, bucklers, and light shields. At 19th level this extends all forms of armor and all forms of shields.

Will of Steel - Any time that a fighter makes a fortitude save, includeing uses of Will of Iron, the figher negates all effects, on the fighter, of the cause of the save, even effects that state they occure despite a save. This ability does not protect anyone other than the fighter (a mass whelm spell would still effect other targets even if the fighter avoided all damage.)

Retrain Feats - A fighter can spend an hour and perminantly reasign one feat. This can be done as many times as the fighter wishes.

Adamant Will - By expending a use of Will of Iron as a swift action, a fighter can make a fortitude save to remove the effects of any abilities that allowed for a will or fortitude save resist the effect OR any effects that will require a will or fortitude save to remove in the future. This ability removes all effects that have a save DC lower that the fortitude check used by this ability

Fighter Grip- At level 6,12, and 18 the fighter picks one of the following abilities.

Grip of Iron - A fighter can now wield a two handed weapon one handed. A figher is treated as wielding two handed even when wielding one handed, and even with a weapon that cannot normaly be wielded two handed.

Grip of Skill - A fighter can make a disarm or trip attempt with any weapon. All weapons are treated as granting a +4 to such an atempt as a weapon made for the task even if they do not normaly do so.

Grip of Air -All weapons are treated as light weapons for feats and abilites.


edit - I don't know about you, but my epic fighter charges down a hill in mountain plate, tower shield in one hand, double sided sword in the other, spining and cleaving through everything in his path.

Epic should be Epic. 1-20 should get you to epic without any problems. Note also the E6 capstone for those who play that varrient.

[Person_Man]

I don't know about tier 3- feats aren't spells, swapping them out 1/day doesn't give you nearly as much versatility as preparing spells does. Taking a page from Tome of Battle, swapping all of their feats 1/encounter would probably push them into high tier 4-ish; you could get some crazy versatility that way. You'd still have a horrible lack of out-of-combat usefulness, though; you'd probably also want to push skill points up to 4+int and add some actual class features.

Also, to prevent Fighter 2 from becoming the greatest dip that ever existed, allow them to trade 1/day at level 3 and 1/encounter at level 7 or 9. (Put Class features on off-levels, so you don't have so many dead levels.)

I have a fairly strait forward Fighter fix (which I'll polish, format, and post after I've had a little more time to play test it) which does this.

The core mechanic is that the Fighter Learns X Fighter Bonus Feats (X = 3 at first level, 33 at 20th). After 10 minutes of rest, he can ready (X - Y) of those Feats (Y = 2 at first level, 22 at 20th). Then in combat after Initiative is rolled, he initiates (Y-Z) Feats from his Readied list (Z = 1 at first level, 11 at 20th), which are then locked in until he spends another 10 minute resting to Ready Feats again. You can also Learn/Ready/Initiate any alternate class feature (such as Dungeoncrasher), Racial Substitution Level, or Pathfinder Archtype ability in place of a Fighter Bonus Feat if you otherwise qualify for it. Whenever you Learn new Fighter Bonus Feats, you may also retrain 1 previously Learned Fighter Bonus Feat. Dead levels are filled in with minor Pathfinder-ish abilities, and there's a nifty capstone. There's also the rule that you can never cease to Initiate a Fighter Bonus Feat if it would remove the prerequites of any other Feat, Bonus Feat, or Prestige Class that you possess.

And that's pretty much it. Tier 3 Fighter which stays true to the Fighter's core mechanic of having a ton of Bonus Feats, without creating an elaborate new list of homebrew class abilities.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Fighter Grip- At level 6,12, and 18 the fighter picks one of the following abilities.

Grip of Iron - A fighter can now wield a two handed weapon one handed. A figher is treated as wielding two handed even when wielding one handed, and even with a weapon that cannot normaly be wielded two handed.

Grip of Skill - A fighter can make a disarm or trip attempt with any weapon. All weapons are treated as granting a +4 to such an atempt as a weapon made for the task even if they do not normaly do so.

Grip of Air -All weapons are treated as light weapons for feats and abilites.


Two things. The "grips" should have the clause "when beneficial" just like Powerful Build. The best of two worlds instead of trading one condition for another. And, personally, the "choices" here are entirly when you gain the grips. Basically, if you get 3 of them over 20 levels, I'd like more than 3 options. It does pigeonhole you but since your staggering them out over several levels any ways, your pigeonholing them either way.

EDIT: As written, Grip of Air does nothing for TWF as it only applies to feats and abilities, which TWF is not. TWF feats either reduce penalties or provides iteratives but it doesn't grant it and thus by RAW is unaffected by Grip of Air. A better way to write it would be: "All weapons are treated as one category lighter (Two-handed->One-Handed->Light) if it is beneficial. When used in such a way, you still gain the benefits and penalties of using the weapon normally plus the benefits of the lighter category. When combined with Grip of Iron, all weapons count as light weapons when beneficial, one-handed weapons when beneficial, and two-handed weapons when benefical as well as the penalties of its normal category.

[Lans]

Oh boy, three maneuvers known! Now the Crusader can point at someone and laugh because they have a worse maneuvers known progression than he does!

Only until they both get forcaged and only one has a way out

The feat on the fly and ToB also brings things like scent and water walking into play that might not be choice worthy for a person who has to make it a permanent choice

[Seerow]

I have a fairly strait forward Fighter fix (which I'll polish, format, and post after I've had a little more time to play test it) which does this.

The core mechanic is that the Fighter Learns X Fighter Bonus Feats (X = 3 at first level, 33 at 20th). After 10 minutes of rest, he can ready (X - Y) of those Feats (Y = 2 at first level, 22 at 20th). Then in combat after Initiative is rolled, he initiates (Y-Z) Feats from his Readied list (Z = 1 at first level, 11 at 20th), which are then locked in until he spends another 10 minute resting to Ready Feats again. You can also Learn/Ready/Initiate any alternate class feature (such as Dungeoncrasher), Racial Substitution Level, or Pathfinder Archtype ability in place of a Fighter Bonus Feat if you otherwise qualify for it. Whenever you Learn new Fighter Bonus Feats, you may also retrain 1 previously Learned Fighter Bonus Feat. Dead levels are filled in with minor Pathfinder-ish abilities, and there's a nifty capstone. There's also the rule that you can never cease to Initiate a Fighter Bonus Feat if it would remove the prerequites of any other Feat, Bonus Feat, or Prestige Class that you possess.

And that's pretty much it. Tier 3 Fighter which stays true to the Fighter's core mechanic of having a ton of Bonus Feats, without creating an elaborate new list of homebrew class abilities.

This by itself would be hard to call tier 3. It's more flexibility, but I do agree with the general concept in that the Fighter should still have feats be important to him. I just don't think more flexibility in feats alone is enough. It's been said fairly often that giving the fighter access to every fighter feat in the game simultaneously might scrape tier 3.

The following is the core of class features I was planning to give to a fighter fix I was working on, in addition to a maneuver-esque progression, to make it a tier 3:

Style Feat (Ex)-At first level, you gain two bonus [Style] Feats of your choice that you meet the prerequisites for, but may only use one of the styles at a time. You choose which of these to use at any given time. You may switch which of the styles you are currently using as a swift action. At 3rd level, and again at 6th level, you gain another style feat that has the first feat as a prerequisite. These followup feats are active along with their prerequisite feat.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Example: A fighter at first level chooses as his two style feats Two-Weapon Rend, and Improved Two-Handed Fighting. At 3rd level, he gains Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Mighty Blows. Now at any time he can have either Two Weapon Rend And Improved Two Weapon Fighting active, or he can have Improved Two Handed Fighting and Mighty Blows active. He may switch between these as a swift action.

Fast Retraining (Ex)-The Fighter gains many bonus feats as he increases in level. When he gains the level, he automatically learns the new feat, as if it was one of his normal feats gained by leveling up. However, the Fighter is able to familiarize himself with new techniques faster than others. With 8 hours of personal training, or 2 hours of training with someone else who already knows the feat, a Fighter may familiarize himself with another feat that he meets the prerequisites for. At the beginning of each day, the Fighter can spend an hour practicing to switch the feats he currently knows with any feat he is familiar with. He cannot retrain out of a feat that is being used as a prerequisite for another feat without first retraining that feat.

Bonus Feat (Ex): At 2nd, 4th, and 8th levels, the Fighter gains a bonus feat which he meets the prerequisites for. These feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Style Maneuver 1: A 10th level Fighter picks up extra tricks unique to his style. Pick one bonus maneuver for both of the Fighter's styles, with a maximum level 2 lower than your current maximum level maneuver. When using one of your fighting styles, you may use the maneuver that is associated with that fighting style (so 2 bonus maneuvers total, with 1 at any given time). This is in addition to your normal maneuvers and skill tricks which may be accessed at any time.

Flex Feat (Ex): At 11th level, and every 4 levels after that, the Fighter gains a flex feat. The Fighter chooses one new feat upon gaining the level, and treats that feat as a familiar feat, however a fighter can change a flex feat to any other feat that he is familiar with as a swift action. Making this switch costs 7 stamina, but the Fighter may choose to switch as many flex feats as he has access to, as long as he follows the normal rules for retraining feats otherwise (ie the fighter cannot retrain a feat that is being used as a prerequisite without first retraining the feat that requires the prerequisite, and the fighter cannot gain a feat he does not meet the prerequisites for).

Style Maneuver 2: At 13th level, the fighter gains an additional bonus maneuver for each of his styles, with a maximum level 1 lower than your current maximum level maneuver. For example a 13th level Fighter has a maximum maneuver level of 7th, so he has one bonus 6th and one bonus 5th level maneuver for each of his fighting styles (so 4 bonus maneuvers total, with 2 at any given time). This is in addition to your normal maneuvers and skill tricks which may be accessed at any time.

Style Maneuver 3: At 15th level, the Fighter gains an additional bonus maneuver for each of his styles, which can be any maneuver he has access to. For example, a 15th level Fighter would have access to 8th level maneuvers, and thus has one 8th, 7th, and 6th level bonus maneuver for both of his fighting styles (so 6 bonus maneuvers total, with 3 at any given time). This is in addition to your normal maneuvers and skill tricks which may be accessed at any time.


Note: The style feats referenced are the ones in my sig.

[Lateral]

Class features preposed

level 1 -feat
level 2 -feat
level 3 -Versitile fighter (1/day)
level 4 -feat
level 5 -Versitile Fighter (2/day)
level 6 -feat - Fighter Grip 1
level 7 -Will of Iron
level 8 -feat
level 9 -Medium armor mastery
level 10-feat
level 11-Versitile Fighter (1/encouter)
level 12-feat - Fighter Grip 2
level 13-Versitile Fighter (2/encouter)
level 14-feat
level 15-Will of Steel
level 16-feat
level 17-Retrain feats
level 18-feat - Fighter Grip 3
level 19-heavy Armor mastery
level 20-Adamant Will
Okay, let's take a look.


Versitile Fighter - A fighter learns to adapt on the fly to encounters. At 3rd level a fighter can reasign a feat to any other feat that he currently qualifies for. You can't use Versitile Fighter to aquire a feat that you have traded away a prerequisite feat. At the end of the encounter the feat returns to it's natural asignment. This is a free action to use. At 5th level this power can be used an aditional time per day. At 11th level this ability can be used an aditional once per encounter. At 13th level this ability can be used 2 times per encounter.
Any or all feats. It's useless if he can only trade one feat. Also, having it change back at the end of the encounter is pointless; if the ability is per day, it's got pros and cons, and if it's per encounter it just means you can't leave it at one set-up from the last encounter that's useful during part of the encounter and then switch. You don't need that clause.

Also, add a qualifier that says that if a feat slot you change had a restriction on what feats or types of feats could be taken, the new feat must follow those restrictions. That way, you can't use this ability like the Dark Chaos Shuffle.


Will of Iron - A level 7 fighter can make a willsave useing his fortitude save a number of times per day = to his con modifier, min 1.
Okay, this is when Will save stuff starts to really hurt you. Maybe a bit earlier, and a few more uses per day.


Medium Armor Mastery - At 9th level a fighter no loger takes any penelties to dextarity to AC, skill checks, attack rolls, or movement for whearing medium or light armor, bucklers, and light shields. At 19th level this extends all forms of armor and all forms of shields.
Okay, so it removes ACP and speed penalties for medium armor? That's pretty good. I'd move the second one to an earlier level, though- 14, maybe. They don't all have to be on all levels.


Will of Steel - Any time that a fighter makes a fortitude save, includeing uses of Will of Iron, the figher negates all effects, on the fighter, of the cause of the save, even effects that state they occure despite a save. This ability does not protect anyone other than the fighter (a mass whelm spell would still effect other targets even if the fighter avoided all damage.)
So... it's Mettle, only worse and at 15th level. It'd be better if you were to put just regular Mettle at level 5 and have this be an ability similar to Iron Heart Surge (only with better wording) at 10th level, usable a number of times/encounter equal to 1/4 your Fighter level (rounded down). Warblades get IHS at 5th level, and that's recoverable; I don't think this is so out of line.


Retrain Feats - A fighter can spend an hour and perminantly reasign one feat. This can be done as many times as the fighter wishes.
If you make the changes outlined in Versatile Fighter, this becomes useless. Remove.


Adamant Will - By expending a use of Will of Iron as a swift action, a fighter can make a fortitude save to remove the effects of any abilities that allowed for a will or fortitude save resist the effect OR any effects that will require a will or fortitude save to remove in the future. This ability removes all effects that have a save DC lower that the fortitude check used by this ability
This is like a crappy 20th-level version of Iron Heart Surge. Think up a better capstone.


Fighter Grip- At level 6,12, and 18 the fighter picks one of the following abilities.
More often.


Grip of Iron - A fighter can now wield a two handed weapon one handed. A figher is treated as wielding two handed even when wielding one handed, and even with a weapon that cannot normaly be wielded two handed.
This is fine.


Grip of Skill - A fighter can make a disarm or trip attempt with any weapon. All weapons are treated as granting a +4 to such an atempt as a weapon made for the task even if they do not normaly do so.
Fine as well.


Grip of Air -All weapons are treated as light weapons for feats and abilities.
Just make it 'where beneficial.'
------
This also needs some form of built-in free movement or pounce, some STR-based abilities, and some weapon-specific things that can be changed every time you use Versatile Fighter.

All in all, could've been better.

[Fouredged Sword]

The idea of the Versitile fighter ability is to adapt to combat as it happens. Wish you had die hard, well for the rest of the encounter you do, just trade away a feat you are not useing. Want mage slayer? If you meet the prereqs, you can trade a feat for it temporaraly.

At first this is per day, and limited. A fighter is still just a guy with a blade a this point. Later he can shift stuff around every encounter as he wishes. None of these changes alter his character sheet though, as he reverts to his normal feats once the encouter is over.

I wanted to give fighters some versitility on the fly. Reasigning a feat is a great idea, but if it takes to long to do, it's not useful for combat. If it can be used to many times an encounter, then it gets silly to keep track of. At most a fighter can change four feats around for one encounter, and two for all other encounters.

As a free action it lets a fighter do so quick enough to be very useful. Get hit by dominate? Pick up iron will. Want to make that AOO? Pick of combat reflexes. Get hit to -5hp and need to move? Pick up diehard.

many feats are situational, and this ability lets a fighter take advantage of most of them when needed.

This chage isn't perminant, abut allows a fighter to adapt on the fly to situations.

Retraining is the perminant side of this, and it lets you retrain all your feats. Note that you can retrain your feats without regard to what you used to be, the olny consideration is what you qualify for now.

As for adamant will. This is something I compare to IHS, but I take a more sane reading of IHS to pay heavy attention to the "Measured in rounds" statement, and disallow anything not EXPRESSLY measured in rounds. IHS should do nothing for such effects as dominate or negative levels.

Will of Iron and Steel are intended to let a fighter focus on his con and fortitude save at the exclusion of his wis and will save. Great fortitude is a serious option for save boosting as +3 to his best save, with a high con. It would be seriously hard to stick a fear, charm, dominate, or any other fighter killer effect on a fighter.

Mettle still requires you to have a good save in both fortitude and will. Will of Iron lets you become significantly less mad.

Adamant will has no such restriction. Break dominate, dispell cureses, remove negative levels or poison or paralisis. It would be very hard to stick a fighter with a save or lose effect that this level.

[Ravens_cry]

Only one someone tries to explain how you would actually fight with one.
Or draws a picture of one.
The most realistic depiction would be likely a meteor hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_hammer), only with sharp bits at the end instead of, well, hammers.

[Doug Lampert]

3.5 fighters do fine at fighting. That's not their problem. Really its not. (Yes a druid's animal companion can often outfight one, who cares. A fighter is still decent melee support.)

The problems a fighter faces are (1) Useless outside of combat, (2) Helpless against spells, and (3) no real mobility powers.

You have to fix those to really up the fighter's tier. Bigger numbers or more feats or more versatile feats don't do much. Give a fighter EVERY fighter bonus feat with EVERY weapon and he's not all that much better, he's just got bigger numbers (and maybe he can beat the silly doggy that follows the druid around), but he still suffers from the three problems above.

(1) Useless outside of combat. List a group of skills a fighter should be able to have ALL of at reasonable ranks:

Balance: A fighter doesn't just train in how to fight on nice flat billiard tables, he trains to fight in rough terrain.
Climb
Heal: Fighters can give first aid and battlefield help.
Intimidate
Jump
Listen: Fighters can stand watch.
Ride: Fighters can fight mounted or on foot.
Sense Motive: Fighters can work as town guardsmen
Spot: Fighters can stand watch.
Swim
Tumble: Tumble is THE battlefield mobility skill. Fighters can move on the battlefield.

That would be 10 skill points per level, which is better than the sacred and never to be exceeded rogue value, so drop it to 6 points per level with all of the above + craft, profession, and handle animal on the skill list.

That makes him almost useful outside of combat. But only almost. A few more out of combat buffs would be nice but I'm not coming up with them today.

(2) Helpless against spells. In previous editions fighters had the best saves, in 4th edition fighters have reasonable defenses, in 3.x fighters get to eat spells and die.

All good saves, all the save boosting feats are fighter bonus feats.
At level 3 a fighter gains SR equal to his HD+10 which does not apply to healing spells while the fighter is unconcious and may be dropped or raised as a free action even on another character's turn.

Again. It's not enough, but it would help.

(3) No mobility. This can be helped by having a spellcaster for a buddy. But that only helps against the easy fights or fights you expect as when the going gets bad the caster should be doing things TO the opponents, not using actions to allow his buddy to pretend to be useful. Unfortunately fixing mobility is going to at least "look" magical. I'd give the fighter a power on each odd level from 5 up which gives mobility comparable to what the wizard got 4 levels earlier.

Level 5: x2 base movement speed and add your base movement speed to your mount's movement speed.

Level 7: You can attack while in the middle of a leap and then continue on. If the attack hits you can change direction at that point.

Level 9: You can run on the air or clouds.

Level 11: Your mount can run on the air or clouds too.

Level 13: As a standard action you can leap 200' + 40'/fighter level.

Level 15: As a standard action you may cleave through the dimensional barriers and reach any other dimension as if you were using a plane-shift spell. Up to 8 other characters may follow you through the gap which closes at the start of your next turn.

Level 17: As a standard action you can cleave through the astral sea and go to any specific spot on your current plane. (Otherwise as the level 15 power.)

Level 19: You can name a location or creature or type of creature and cleave through space to reach it. Regardless of plane or distance or location. The universe itself is so intimidated by your weapon might and you are just so awesome that it works. (Sorry, I just couldn't come up with anything as grossly overpowered as a wizard's astral projection or gate spell. I know this is utterly feeble by comparison and comes later, but it's still mildly useful.)

DougL

[Silva Stormrage]

3.5 fighters do fine at fighting. That's not their problem. Really its not. (Yes a druid's animal companion can often outfight one, who cares. A fighter is still decent melee support.)

The problems a fighter faces are (1) Useless outside of combat, (2) Helpless against spells, and (3) no real mobility powers.

You have to fix those to really up the fighter's tier. Bigger numbers or more feats or more versatile feats don't do much. Give a fighter EVERY fighter bonus feat with EVERY weapon and he's not all that much better, he's just got bigger numbers (and maybe he can beat the silly doggy that follows the druid around), but he still suffers from the three problems above.

(1) Useless outside of combat. List a group of skills a fighter should be able to have ALL of at reasonable ranks:

Balance: A fighter doesn't just train in how to fight on nice flat billiard tables, he trains to fight in rough terrain.
Climb
Heal: Fighters can give first aid and battlefield help.
Intimidate
Jump
Listen: Fighters can stand watch.
Ride: Fighters can fight mounted or on foot.
Sense Motive: Fighters can work as town guardsmen
Spot: Fighters can stand watch.
Swim
Tumble: Tumble is THE battlefield mobility skill. Fighters can move on the battlefield.

That would be 10 skill points per level, which is better than the sacred and never to be exceeded rogue value, so drop it to 6 points per level with all of the above + craft, profession, and handle animal on the skill list.

That makes him almost useful outside of combat. But only almost. A few more out of combat buffs would be nice but I'm not coming up with them today.

(2) Helpless against spells. In previous editions fighters had the best saves, in 4th edition fighters have reasonable defenses, in 3.x fighters get to eat spells and die.

All good saves, all the save boosting feats are fighter bonus feats.
At level 3 a fighter gains SR equal to his HD+10 which does not apply to healing spells while the fighter is unconcious and may be dropped or raised as a free action even on another character's turn.

Again. It's not enough, but it would help.

(3) No mobility. This can be helped by having a spellcaster for a buddy. But that only helps against the easy fights or fights you expect as when the going gets bad the caster should be doing things TO the opponents, not using actions to allow his buddy to pretend to be useful. Unfortunately fixing mobility is going to at least "look" magical. I'd give the fighter a power on each odd level from 5 up which gives mobility comparable to what the wizard got 4 levels earlier.

Level 5: x2 base movement speed and add your base movement speed to your mount's movement speed.

Level 7: You can attack while in the middle of a leap and then continue on. If the attack hits you can change direction at that point.

Level 9: You can run on the air or clouds.

Level 11: Your mount can run on the air or clouds too.

Level 13: As a standard action you can leap 200' + 40'/fighter level.

Level 15: As a standard action you may cleave through the dimensional barriers and reach any other dimension as if you were using a plane-shift spell. Up to 8 other characters may follow you through the gap which closes at the start of your next turn.

Level 17: As a standard action you can cleave through the astral sea and go to any specific spot on your current plane. (Otherwise as the level 15 power.)

Level 19: You can name a location or creature or type of creature and cleave through space to reach it. Regardless of plane or distance or location. The universe itself is so intimidated by your weapon might and you are just so awesome that it works. (Sorry, I just couldn't come up with anything as grossly overpowered as a wizard's astral projection or gate spell. I know this is utterly feeble by comparison and comes later, but it's still mildly useful.)

DougL

I agree with you on almost all points. The thing I disagree with is the mobility points. I think a much better solution is to simply give fighters the ability to full attack as a standard action as well as give all full bab classes pounce. You solutions seem a bit to magical for most people (Leaping 720 feet at lvl 13? Thats a bit much). Yes I know fighters break the laws of physics too but this just seems to do so really unsubtly.

[hex0]

Just curios, what tier would a bonus feat every level be for fighter

[Flickerdart]

Just curios, what tier would a bonus feat every level be for fighter
Same tier as before - maybe you could do two combat styles by 20, but they're still just ways of hitting things.

[Lateral]

The idea of the Versitile fighter ability is to adapt to combat as it happens. Wish you had die hard, well for the rest of the encounter you do, just trade away a feat you are not useing. Want mage slayer? If you meet the prereqs, you can trade a feat for it temporarily.

At first this is per day, and limited. A fighter is still just a guy with a blade a this point. Later he can shift stuff around every encounter as he wishes. None of these changes alter his character sheet though, as he reverts to his normal feats once the encouter is over.
Yes, but if you can't swap every feat you still have to already have taken every other prerequisite, which means the versatility is minimal. It just isn't any good as one feat only.


I wanted to give fighters some versitility on the fly. Reasigning a feat is a great idea, but if it takes to long to do, it's not useful for combat. If it can be used to many times an encounter, then it gets silly to keep track of. At most a fighter can change four feats around for one encounter, and two for all other encounters.
Yes, BUT THAT ISN'T ENOUGH FOR ANY REASONABLE VERSATILITY. You can, at most, get part of one feat chain to use one tactic at a fairly mediocre level. Once or twice per encounter for each feat should be enough; with one feat at a time, it's nearly useless even if it's 1/round at will.

Also, did you see what I said about the permanent changes? That should just be built into the Versatility feature. It's just too little, too late the way you have it.


As a free action it lets a fighter do so quick enough to be very useful. Get hit by dominate? Pick up iron will. Want to make that AOO? Pick of combat reflexes. Get hit to -5hp and need to move? Pick up diehard.
YES, BUT I NEVER RECOMMENDED CHANGING ITS USE TIME. Actually read my comments next time. :smallannoyed:


many feats are situational, and this ability lets a fighter take advantage of most of them when needed.
No, it doesn't, because most of them will be nearly impossible to qualify for. If you can change your entire list, you can mold them to the specific encounter, and really be effective.


This chage isn't perminant, abut allows a fighter to adapt on the fly to situations.
Yes, but it should be permanent until it's changed again. With a 1/encounter use time and a semipermanent change it's less like 'I can change from my usual tactics to others, once in a while' to 'I can adapt my combat style to anything, any time, easy.'


Retraining is the perminant side of this, and it lets you retrain all your feats. Note that you can retrain your feats without regard to what you used to be, the olny consideration is what you qualify for now.
Yes, but again, too little, too late.


As for adamant will. This is something I compare to IHS, but I take a more sane reading of IHS to pay heavy attention to the "Measured in rounds" statement, and disallow anything not EXPRESSLY measured in rounds. IHS should do nothing for such effects as dominate or negative levels.
That's probably the least of the abuses that IHS as-written can be used for. Adamant Will might be okay as a level 5 or 7 feature, but as a capstone it sucks cachalot ass.


Will of Iron and Steel are intended to let a fighter focus on his con and fortitude save at the exclusion of his wis and will save. Great fortitude is a serious option for save boosting as +3 to his best save, with a high con. It would be seriously hard to stick a fear, charm, dominate, or any other fighter killer effect on a fighter.
Will of Iron is okay, although it couldn't hurt to be earlier and a little more often. Will of Steel, again, is like Mettle but at 15th level and that doesn't affect Will saves except when you use Will of Iron. It sucks horribly and needs to become just Mettle at a far earlier level, or else be more like a less stupid IHS.


Mettle still requires you to have a good save in both fortitude and will. Will of Iron lets you become significantly less mad.
What? Will of Iron has nothing to do with Mettle, and Will of Iron is pretty okay as-is. We're talking about Will of Steel, here.


Adamant will has no such restriction. Break dominate, dispell cureses, remove negative levels or poison or paralisis. It would be very hard to stick a fighter with a save or lose effect that this level.

IT'S AT TWENTIETH LEVEL. WARBLADES GET SURGE AT FIFTH LEVEL. THERE SHOULD NOT BE PROS AND CONS HERE. IF IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A CAPSTONE, IT SHOULD BE UNEQUIVOCALLY AND DRASTICALLY BETTER THAN A THIRD-LEVEL MANEUVER. Capish? :smallannoyed:

[Seerow]

IT'S AT TWENTIETH LEVEL. WARBLADES GET SURGE AT FIFTH LEVEL. THERE SHOULD NOT BE PROS AND CONS HERE. IF IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A CAPSTONE, IT SHOULD BE UNEQUIVOCALLY AND DRASTICALLY BETTER THAN A THIRD-LEVEL MANEUVER. Capish?


To be fair that 3rd level maneuver is probably the strongest maneuver in the book by a fair margin.



Also, no comments on the stuff I posted? I guess that's what I get for using spoiler tags instead of making everyone scroll past it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

To be fair that 3rd level maneuver is probably the strongest maneuver in the book by a fair margin.

Eh, maybe the power of a 5th level one. Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Iron Heart Focus, and Disrupting Blow are the ones fighting it for a spot. 100 extra damage, double attacks, or an SoD/SaDamage is quite a bit better than IHS unless you play by pure RAW.

[Lateral]

To be fair that 3rd level maneuver is probably the strongest maneuver in the book by a fair margin.
It's pretty damn powerful even when logic is applied, yeah. Although being a standard action use time does limit its usefulness quite a bit- I always thought that should be changed. As is, it can't shake off domination or stunning, which are kind of what you'd think it was designed for.

...

But that still doesn't mean that Adamantine Will is a good capstone. :smallannoyed:



Also, no comments on the stuff I posted? I guess that's what I get for using spoiler tags instead of making everyone scroll past it.

It's 12:00 here, I don't have the energy. Sorry.

Which begs the question, why am I still here?

[Seerow]

Eh, maybe the power of a 5th level one. Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, Iron Heart Focus, and Disrupting Blow are the ones fighting it for a spot. 100 extra damage, double attacks, or an SoD/SaDamage is quite a bit better than IHS unless you play by pure RAW.


All of the stuff you listed are attacks. Of those only Disrupting Blow does something other than damage, and even that is a half-assed stun. Even compared to the 5th level IHF, automatically negate any effect on you vs an extra saving throw?

I'd take IHS over any of those any day of the weak. Including the 9th level maneuvers like double attacks for a round, or +100 damage on an attack. Sure those are nice, but you know what? Melee doesn't particularly need damage. If more damage made a great maneuver, then nobody would actually use ToB, because they'd be better off with a Barbarian/Fighter with charging feats. IHS offers something unique and powerful, that isn't easily countered. Yes, it's a defensive ability, but if you want to play the game at high levels you NEED awesome defensive abilities that work to negate status effects and ****. IHS is legitimately better in my eyes than any 9th level maneuver even before considering the RAW uses like being able to bring down an AMF, or magical fog clouds and ****.

[Big Fau]

All of the stuff you listed are attacks. Of those only Disrupting Blow does something other than damage, and even that is a half-assed stun. Even compared to the 5th level IHF, automatically negate any effect on you vs an extra saving throw?

I'd take IHS over any of those any day of the weak. Including the 9th level maneuvers like double attacks for a round, or +100 damage on an attack. Sure those are nice, but you know what? Melee doesn't particularly need damage. If more damage made a great maneuver, then nobody would actually use ToB, because they'd be better off with a Barbarian/Fighter with charging feats. IHS offers something unique and powerful, that isn't easily countered. Yes, it's a defensive ability, but if you want to play the game at high levels you NEED awesome defensive abilities that work to negate status effects and ****. IHS is legitimately better in my eyes than any 9th level maneuver even before considering the RAW uses like being able to bring down an AMF, or magical fog clouds and ****.

While I agree that IHS is far and away better than every other maneuver in the book, look at how many creatures in the MM have an SLA that imposes a serious detrimental effect that doesn't offer a saving throw (and isn't capable of actual spellcasting).

9 times out of 10, the Diamond Mind counters are more useful than IHS. I've only ever used IHS once during an entire campaign (lasting from 1st level until 17th level), and it was when I got hit by a Blindness/Deafness spell during the round I refreshed my maneuvers, and even then we had the means to remove it without me using IHS.

Most of the time, the effects you really want to avoid can be countered with either the Diamond Mind maneuvers or Wall of Blades.

[Hiro Protagonest]

While I agree that IHS is far and away better than every other maneuver in the book, look at how many creatures in the MM have an SLA that imposes a serious detrimental effect that doesn't offer a saving throw (and isn't capable of actual spellcasting).

9 times out of 10, the Diamond Mind counters are more useful than IHS. I've only ever used IHS once during an entire campaign (lasting from 1st level until 17th level), and it was when I got hit by a Blindness/Deafness spell during the round I refreshed my maneuvers, and even then we had the means to remove it without me using IHS.

Most of the time, the effects you really want to avoid can be countered with either the Diamond Mind maneuvers or Wall of Blades.

Don't forget Iron Heart Focus if you don't put ranks in concentration.

[stainboy]

I agree with you on almost all points. The thing I disagree with is the mobility points. I think a much better solution is to simply give fighters the ability to full attack as a standard action as well as give all full bab classes pounce. You solutions seem a bit to magical for most people (Leaping 720 feet at lvl 13? Thats a bit much). Yes I know fighters break the laws of physics too but this just seems to do so really unsubtly.

I don't think Doug was 100% serious about the mobility powers.

You can give a fighter most of the same mobility just with a special mount class feature. And I mean a good special mount, not the paladin mount that's worse than mounts you can buy in town and not the ranger animal companion which isn't even level appropriate because you're not allowed to be as good as druids. A nightmare can fly and Plane Shift but a Level 10 fighter riding a nightmare is still just a mounted knight. It fits the fighter archetype. (Dragons are good too. People like riding dragons.)

[Seerow]

not the paladin mount that's worse than mounts you can buy in town

What? Have you actually looked at the Paladin mount?

[Fouredged Sword]

Have you looked at a zombie dragon rode by the wizard, the nightmare bound by the cleric, or the giant bird of some kind rode by the druid?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Have you looked at a zombie dragon rode by the wizard, the nightmare bound by the cleric, or the giant bird of some kind rode by the druid?

Have you looked at the dire wolves you can buy in town compared to Argent?

The guy said it was worse than the mounts you can buy in town (and not a metropolis where there are big game hunters that bring back baby hipogriffs for animal trainers). That's not true.

[stainboy]

What? Have you actually looked at the Paladin mount?

Yeah, it's a decent class feature. Have you actually looked at the mounts you can buy?

A hippogriff trained as a mount goes for 5k gp. A griffon is 10k. That's a lot of cash for something that's probably going to die, but if you need to keep up with a flying wizard at 5th level a hippogriff can help you and a paladin horsey can't.

E: We're going by the strict RAW here where you get a horse or a pony, not my preferred interpretation where I get a winged shark.

[Hiro Protagonest]

E: We're going by the strict RAW here where you get a horse or a pony, not my preferred interpretation where I get a winged shark.

This isn't strict RAW. This is strict RAI. RAW means you get a pegasus or hipogriff without having to blow a feat.

[Flickerdart]

E: We're going by the strict RAW here where you get a horse or a pony, not my preferred interpretation where I get a winged shark.
That's strict nothing - the entry says "usually", and there are even options for non-standard Paladin mounts in Core on page 204 of the DMG.

[stainboy]

This is ridiculous. The paladin's mount for purposes of my comparison is a horse or pony. Because that is the only option you are given access to by the rules as opposed to the DM.


The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.

Shark is pretty sweet if your whole party are aventi but realistically let's set that one aside. You've inferred from the options of Warhorse, Warpony, and at the DM's option Riding Dog that the rules say you get a pegasus.

Horse
Pony
Dog
Shark
Pegasus

One of these things is not like the other.

[Dsurion]

Horse
Pony
Dog
Shark
Pegasus

One of these things is not like the other.The shark! It's the shark! It doesn't have legs!

...I have nothing useful to add to this conversation.

[Devmaar]

How much would it help the Fighter if he got his ACFs for free, without trading feats?

So instead of Fighter we have Pugilist Zhentarim Hit-and-Run Thug Targetteer Dungeoncrasher etc. Fighter

[Big Fau]

How much would it help the Fighter if he got his ACFs for free, without trading feats?

So instead of Fighter we have Pugilist Zhentarim Hit-and-Run Thug Targetteer Dungeoncrasher etc. Fighter

It puts him up to Tier 4, at least until he hits 10th level (when Zhentarim Fighter is gained). The rest of the levels are still pretty bad.

[Doug Lampert]

I don't think Doug was 100% serious about the mobility powers.

You can give a fighter most of the same mobility just with a special mount class feature. And I mean a good special mount, not the paladin mount that's worse than mounts you can buy in town and not the ranger animal companion which isn't even level appropriate because you're not allowed to be as good as druids. A nightmare can fly and Plane Shift but a Level 10 fighter riding a nightmare is still just a mounted knight. It fits the fighter archetype. (Dragons are good too. People like riding dragons.)

Mount would work, but I was dead serious about the idea that you NEED to give him real mobility.

Look at what people are objecting to. Something barely comparable to dimension door that comes 4 levels later. If a fighter can't have a toy that good without spending money because doing so is somehow wrong then the class is crap and it will always be crap.

4 levels later means I can get this level of mobility two levels after I could have gotten it from a wizard cohort! That's too late to be really good, not too powerful. The suggested powers in my post really were at about the bottom of what you need to be able to do.

Now, as you point out, a reasonable and level appropriate mount would be BETTER than almost everything I suggested. Free leadership with a mount for a cohort and the followers beefed up to be useful would fit fine with fighters.

I think the fluff even still mentions them being leaders and commanders with NOTHING in the class to back that up.

But there are three very BASIC requirements to be a viable character in any moderately serious game.
(1) Have a way to get to the action.
(2) Have a way to survive the action.
(3) Have a way to participate in the action.

For a mid to high level fighter in D&D the only solution at present to problem (1) is to have the wizard or some other class help you. The only solution to problem (2) is to have the cleric or some other class help you.

If the action is not a combat then there simply is no solution for point (3) at present. But when the action is combat point (3) is the ONLY point where the fighter class is functional, it's also all more or more versatile fighter feats help.

Trying to fix the fighter by adding fighter feats shows a fundamental missunderstanding of the problem. You're boosting the one thing he can actually do when the problem is all the stuff he can't do.

[Flickerdart]

This is ridiculous. The paladin's mount for purposes of my comparison is a horse or pony. Because that is the only option you are given access to by the rules as opposed to the DM.



Shark is pretty sweet if your whole party are aventi but realistically let's set that one aside. You've inferred from the options of Warhorse, Warpony, and at the DM's option Riding Dog that the rules say you get a pegasus.

Horse
Pony
Dog
Shark
Pegasus

One of these things is not like the other.
Please direct your attention to page 204 of the DMG, like I have previously mentioned, instead of sitting on the same passage of a secondary source for the entirety of your argument and pretending the other rules don't exist.

[Glimbur]

It puts him up to Tier 4, at least until he hits 10th level (when Zhentarim Fighter is gained). The rest of the levels are still pretty bad.

Don't forget about Sneak Attack fighter. It doesn't really help with versatility, but it can significantly increase damage output.

[Big Fau]

Don't forget about Sneak Attack fighter. It doesn't really help with versatility, but it can significantly increase damage output.

Damage has never been a real problem for the Fighter.

A class that deals 1,000,000,000,000,000 damage every time it makes a successful Overrun attempt may be overpowered, but if that's it's only trick then it falls squarely into Tier 5 if it is ever called upon to do something other than use the Overrun action.

Thug Fighter was taken into account in my previous post. The extra skills help quite a bit to keep the class out of Tier 5, but Skills alone does not a Tier 3 make.

[Keegan__D]

What's a tier?

[erikun]

Just curios, what tier would a bonus feat every level be for fighter
Same tier. Fighters are actually good at putting together a combat style quickly with their feat selection; the problem is that they don't get much variety even with their combat styles available. Yes, you could get a Fighter that can trip and disarm and charge by level 10, but is gaining disarming as well really worth much?

Compare it to a potential Fighter that could take, say, reserve feats or devotion feats (and use them) and you'll see how far behind the standard Fighter ends up.


What's a tier?
Here you go. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) It is a (rough) estimate at effectiveness and versatility between the classes. In general, tiers 4-6 are a scale on how well a class does something (Barbarians are better at hurting things than Fighter, which are better than Warriors) while tiers 1-3 are how many options are available to a class (Wizards can have more variety in spells than a Sorcerer, which has more variety than a Beguiler).

[Big Fau]

Here you go. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) It is a (rough) estimate at effectiveness and versatility between the classes. In general, tiers 4-6 are a scale on how well a class does something (Barbarians are better at hurting things than Fighter, which are better than Warriors) while tiers 1-3 are how many options are available to a class (Wizards can have more variety in spells than a Sorcerer, which has more variety than a Beguiler).

Disclaimer: The Tiers system is an approximate measurement based on a neutral level of system mastery and optimization. It is not always applicable to the way your play group plays the game, and may not help in the least.

The Tiers system is also not a guide to how to run a game with classes of wildly different Tiers (although they have offered advice for doing so). Do not assume that the Tiers system is someone telling you how to play the game, as a few people do.

[Chess435]

How's this as a fix?

Skill points: Up to 4+Int mod, as a lot of people like.

Martial Training: Fighter class levels fully progress initiator level for the purposes of Martial Study/Stance and multiclassing. Note that this doesn't actually give a fighter/initiator class new maneuvers and stances.

Armored Grace (Ex): At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, a fighter reduces the ACP and increases the Maximum Dexterity bonus of all armor they wear by 1.

Mage Slayer: At 3rd level, the fighter gains Mage Slayer as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

Battle Cry (Ex): At 3rd level, as a standard action, the fighter may sound a battle cry, granting all allies (including himself) within 30 feet a +4 morale bonus to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. All allies affected by this gain the bonus to the same ability score, and it's effects last for 1 round per character level the fighter possesses. The bonus to an ability score increases to +6 at 9th level, and then to +8 at 15th level. The fighter may use this a number of times per day equal to 3+Int modifier.

Magic-Resistant (Ex): At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the fighter gains a cumulative +1 bonus against all effects and abilities that are not Extraordinary.

Mettle (Ex): At 5th level, if the fighter would make a successful Fortitude or Will save against an effect that would have a partial effect on a successful save, the fighter suffers no effect.

Pierce Magical Protection: At 7th level, the fighter gains Pierce Magical Protection as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

Improved Mettle (Ex): At 9th level, the fighter only suffers the partial effects of an attack that has a partial effect on a successful Fortitude or Will save even on a failed save.

By Crom! (Ex): At 10th level, once per minute as a free action, the fighter may use Iron Heart Surge.

Pierce Magical Concealment: At 11th level, the fighter gains Pierce Magical Concealment as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

Free Movement (Ex): At 13th level, the fighter is constantly considered to be under the effects of Freedom of Movement.

Hard to Kill (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter gains Fast Healing 1. In addition, the fighter automatically stabilizes when reduced below 0 HP, and is may continue to fight normally. Finally, the HP threshold for death is decreased from -10 to -(2 x Con score).

Battle Swiftness (Ex): At 17th level, three times per day, as an immediate action, the fighter may take a standard action.

Armor Fluidity (Ex): At 19th level, the fighter adds his armor and shield bonus to his touch AC.

Battle Clarity (Ex): At 20th level, the fighter is constantly considered to be under the effect of foresight.


I think this'll do to make fighters suck less. A lot less.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

[Big Fau]

How's this as a fix?

Skill points: Up to 4+Int mod, as a lot of people like.

Show us some Class Skills and this may be helpful, but as you wrote it all it does is let him ignore Int a little bit more.


Martial Training: Fighter class levels fully progress initiator level for the purposes of Martial Study/Stance and multiclassing. Note that this doesn't actually give a fighter/initiator class new maneuvers and stances.

While it makes Martial Study a lot better for the Fighter, all it really does is make Fighter 2 incredible for a Warblade, more so than it all ready was.


Armored Grace (Ex): At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, a fighter reduces the ACP and increases the Maximum Dexterity bonus of all armor they wear by 1.

Numerical bonuses are not what the Fighter needs.


Mage Slayer: At 3rd level, the fighter gains Mage Slayer as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

While it is helpful against spellcasters, they can still utterly demolish the Fighter in a myriad of ways. It ultimately only matters against partial casters who can't defend themselves as easily, like the Duskblade or Spellthief.


Battle Cry (Ex): At 3rd level, as a standard action, the fighter may sound a battle cry, granting all allies (including himself) within 30 feet a +4 morale bonus to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. All allies affected by this gain the bonus to the same ability score, and it's effects last for 1 round per character level the fighter possesses. The bonus to an ability score increases to +6 at 9th level, and then to +8 at 15th level. The fighter may use this a number of times per day equal to 3+Int modifier.

While it is a nice boost to the party, a Bard does this better and all you've done is granted another numerical bonus.


Magic-Resistant (Ex): At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the fighter gains a cumulative +1 bonus against all effects and abilities that are not Extraordinary.

You mean a +1 bonus on Saves against non-Ex abilities? Again, numerical bonus.


Mettle (Ex): At 5th level, if the fighter would make a successful Fortitude or Will save against an effect that would have a partial effect on a successful save, the fighter suffers no effect.

Helpful, but not nearly enough to make up for the dead level that is Fighter 5.


Pierce Magical Protection: At 7th level, the fighter gains Pierce Magical Protection as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

This one is a well-disguised numerical bonus. That's it.


Improved Mettle (Ex): At 9th level, the fighter only suffers the partial effects of an attack that has a partial effect on a successful Fortitude or Will save even on a failed save.

Every single person who has attempted to make Improved Mettle has done something similar to this, and it has turned out the exact same: Hideously overpowered, and should not be allowed.


By Crom! (Ex): At 10th level, once per minute as a free action, the fighter may use Iron Heart Surge.

Largely redundant with Improved Mettle.


Pierce Magical Concealment: At 11th level, the fighter gains Pierce Magical Concealment as a bonus feat, without the corresponding CL decrease. They do not have to meet the prequisites.

At this level it's been outclassed by battlefield control.


Free Movement (Ex): At 13th level, the fighter is constantly considered to be under the effects of Freedom of Movement.

Third actual class feature, and probably the only one that matters at this point.


Hard to Kill (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter gains Fast Healing 1. In addition, the fighter automatically stabilizes when reduced below 0 HP, and is may continue to fight normally. Finally, the HP threshold for death is decreased from -10 to -(2 x Con score).

Far too late to be relevant. And far too little healing at that. At this level, it isn't that hard to be dropped to -80.


Battle Swiftness (Ex): At 17th level, three times per day, as an immediate action, the fighter may take a standard action.

Inferior to many other extra action abilities, and comes too late to matter.


Armor Fluidity (Ex): At 19th level, the fighter adds his armor and shield bonus to his touch AC.

A numerical bonus that's damn-near worthless.


Battle Clarity (Ex): At 20th level, the fighter is constantly considered to be under the effect of foresight.


Poorly worded and a numerical bonus.


I think this'll do to make fighters suck less. A lot less.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments?

The issues you addressed are largely geared towards fighting spellcasters. The problem is that this only helps against Tier 3 spellcasters who aren't trying to dominate the campaign. The abilities you presented do not address the actual weaknesses of the Fighter class itself, and as such are barely notable Tier-wise. Really, the only feature here that's relevant at all is Freedom of Movement, and that still doesn't address the Fighter's mobility problem (namely, Moving and Attacking in the same round).


I'm going to look through some of my previous posts. I clearly need to repost something that I found at BG.

[Big Fau]

Forgive the double post, but I found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11267167&postcount=4)

For those who just want the relevant portion:



Why the Fighter is Tier 5

Lack of Unique Class Features: The main draws of the Fighter class are bonus feats, Base Attack Bonus, armor and weapon proficiencies, and a d10 HD. It's "class features" all draw upon a common pool of rules: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Every other class in the entire game is capable of utilizing those rules.

Item Dependency: Caused by the Fighter's lack of class features, a Fighter must use magic items to shore up it's weaknesses (Note: Every class is guilty of this to some extent). Without these items, a Fighter is at a horrible disadvantage. However, a Fighter is stuck on the Wealth By Level guideline: They have no reliable means of bypassing that reliance on the WBL (Crafting using the Craft skill is too slow, as is the Profession skill). Furthermore, the magic items a fighter needs consume a huge amount of an individual character's WBL (Magic Weapons are the only items in all DnD capable of hitting 200KGP without using the Custom Magic Item rules).

Multiple Atribute Dependency: Fighters need Con for HP, Str for Damage, Dex for AC, and a varying amount of Int/Wis/Cha depending on feat selection. Attempting to make a Dex-focused Fighter means you will lag behind in damage output, as you have no class features that support the option (worse: Many feats that make use of Weapon Finesse have class feature requirements).

Build Identity Crisis: Every Lockdown Chain Tripper has the exact same feat list. Every Charger has the exact same feat list. Every Archer has the exact same feat list. It gets repetitive very quickly. Furthermore, some builds are highly impractical. Because of these builds, attempting to deviate from the established norm will result in a large liability for your party if you ignore the basics of your style. A Charger who does not have Shock Trooper will be horribly incapable, a Lockdown Chain Tripper who doesn't have Stand Still will not be able to establish his lockdown, and so forth.

Stagnate Combat Options: As stated above, the only actions a Fighter can take during a combat encounter are: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Using Martial Study to gain additional actions results in you feeling inferior to the Warblade, who can do everything you can, while having a wider arsenal of combat options.

Lack of Out-Of-Combat Flexibility: How do Fighters check for traps? Walking into them. How do Fighters keep watch? Hoping CC ranks in Spot/Listen will actually amount to anything (which it won't, as you lack the Skill Points due to MAD). How do Fighters gather information on a crime lord? They don't without CC ranks, and even then, the rest of the party is better at it. These are but a few of the OOC issues a Fighter faces. Note: Every one of these issues can be addressed by Role Playing or via Magic Items, however doing so is not a part of the Fighter class.

Poor Quality Feat Choices: Take a look at the Fighter's Bonus Feat choices. How many of them are actually useful?

Action Economy: Because the Fighter was printed in the PHB, it was unable to utilize the Swift and Immediate actions. Feats that came post-XPH attempted to correct this issue, but it wasn't enough (very few of those feats are actually useable). In addition, Magic Items that made use of the Swift/Immediate actions were often limited in uses/day, and many of those items were poorly priced/underpowered.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, here's some off the cuff ideas. If I miss something, I'm sorry, I'm doing this away from source books.

lvl 1 Feat. A bonus feat form fighter levels as designated in the PHB. These feats may be any feats he meets the prerequisites for at the time he takes them. He may change them at the start of every day.

May tumble In armor.

You have a good fort save. You may Choose either Wisdom or Reflex too also be a good save. Once this choice is made it cannot be changed. Which ever save you choose gains good save progression. Which ever one you don't choose remains a poor progression.
lvl 2 Feat.
lvl 3 Dungeoncrasher. As the Dungeonscape AFC, except gained at 3rd lvl and doesn't cost you a feat.
lvl 4 Feat.
lvl 5 Zanatrim Sub level. As the Racial sub level that helps intimidate. (Can't remember the source or the spelling off the top of my head.)
lvl 6 Feat.
lvl 7 Pounce.
May move normally and ignore armor check penalty's form light and medium armor, and shields. May also ignore attack penalty's form tower shields.
lvl 8 Feat.
lvl 9 May now change feats once during every encounter. May change feats with Ten Minutes of practice time outside combat at will.
lvl 10 Feat.
lvl 11 May move Normally and Ignore penalty's form wearing any armor with which you are proficient.
lvl 12 Feat.
lvl 13 Dungeon crash. As the Dungeon Scape AFC, except now it's just a class feature. This was a extra increase the Fighter got at level 6 in that book.
lvl 14 Feat.
lvl 15 May now change feats Twice in an encounter, and may change them out of combat as a full round action.
lvl 16 Feat.
lvl 17 Intimidate is a Free Action. Unlike other free actions, you make make it once during each opponents turn as well as as often as DM allows during your turn.
lvl 18 Feat.
lvl 19 May Now Change feats as a free action out of Combat. Up too three times In combat.
lvl 20 Feat. Pounce No longer Requires a charge action, simply movement of some kind to allow a full attack.

Add Tumble and UMD to skills list and give them 4 a level skills.

Ok, yeah, that was Off the cuff and not terribly well though out or planned, and done away form books. What do you think?

[erikun]

How's this as a fix?
I never gave the Fighter class a full write-up fix, but here's what I did.


Good Fort/Will saves
4+INT skill points
Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Local, Profession, Ride, Search, Swin, Use Rope, plus any two other skills of the player's choice (the Fighter is supposed to be a generalist, right?)
Mettle at 3rd level, Improved Mettle at 13th
The ability to 5' step as a free action whenever a threatened opponent took a 5' step, at 1st level
The ability to full attack on a charge, at any points during the charge, at 7th level (it would be 6th, but they get a feat that level)
The ability to take a full move action as part of a full attack, including resolving attacks at any point in the movement, at 11th level
The ability to continue to make saving throw every round for an ongoing effect


Combined with a two-weapon fighting fix, I think that this resolves most of the problem that the basic full-attack system creates. It doesn't resolve the magic-dependency or tier gap problems, but I am not sure that giving the Fighter a bunch of anti-magic abilities is the way to correctly do so.

[Chess435]

*snip*

Thanks for the advice. So more mobility-related buffs, such as the allowing of move+full attack, ignoring difficult terrain, and perhaps Jump/Tumble bonuses (or better yet, mobility based skill tricks!) would be helpful here. Less numerical bonuses and more options...... I'll be back later with version 2.0...

[Big Fau]

Thanks for the advice. So more mobility-related buffs, such as the allowing of move+full attack, ignoring difficult terrain, and perhaps Jump/Tumble bonuses (or better yet, mobility based skill tricks!) would be helpful here. Less numerical bonuses and more options...... I'll be back later with version 2.0...

Something that may not have been clear: Ways to take more actions or more actions that are unique to the class, and a way to circumvent parts of the WBL are vital to a Fighter fix.


The latter part especially. Magic Weapons are the most expensive non-Epic magic items in DnD. Anything that reduces their costs or allows the Fighter to craft them in a timely (read: Under 72 hours, rather than the 200 days it takes to make a +10 weapon) is a serious boost to the class.

[stainboy]

Something that may not have been clear: Ways to take more actions or more actions that are unique to the class, and a way to circumvent parts of the WBL are vital to a Fighter fix.

The latter part especially. Magic Weapons are the most expensive non-Epic magic items in DnD. Anything that reduces their costs or allows the Fighter to craft them in a timely (read: Under 72 hours, rather than the 200 days it takes to make a +10 weapon) is a serious boost to the class.

You familiar with Another Gaming Comic? (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=5) It's about more-or-less AD&D, and the fighter gets tons of versatility from magic items. LGT an issue with his character sheet. I'm sure he'd be massively over 3e WBL.

Any ideas how to formalize something like that? I like the idea of giving fighters better use of magic items instead of just more of them. Like all weapons and slotted items either work better for martials or have an ability only martials can use.

[Doug Lampert]

Ok, here's some off the cuff ideas. If I miss something, I'm sorry, I'm doing this away from source books.
[SNIP]
What do you think?

Better than some suggestions, but I really don't like the changing feats mechanism. If a fighter ought to be able to use the mounted charge chain any time he wants it (or the trip chain, or some other chain of feats) then the ENTIRE chain ought to be class features he gets for free.

Seriously, if you're going to give the fighter the ability to have every fighter feat that's relevant to build X at level Y then why not give him fewer feats and give him all of build X at level Y as a class feature? Why go through the rigamorole of retraining and needing 6 different builds for different circumstances if you're always going to be in the correct feat configuration for the current situation?

Give him ALL the fighter feats as quickly as he qualifies and simply kill the bonus feat class feature. Would this hurt anything?

Same thing but even moreso for ranger archery and two weapon styles, who's going to have the weapons and other support for both? And if someone does have gear and abilities for both what possible harm does it do to let him have both? Versatility is power, but having multiple ways to hit someone with a stick isn't versatility, it's basic competence at hitting people with sticks!

Gods forbid that the fighter might be able to either Charge OR Trip and choose which he does freely each round.... How horrible if you could use a bow effectively one round and then fight effectively with a sword without some special retraining class feature! Obviously you can't just be good with weapons and use a rapier in one hand and dagger in the other without retraining feats to boost both weapons!

I'm sure all actual two-weapon fighters used identical weapons in each hand so their combat feats would mesh up! (No, wait, that's stupid, actual two handed styles almost always used two different weapons.)

The fighter can only do one thing per round no matter how many combat styles you give him the feats for. He'll only have the weapons and abilities to support 2-3 styles no matter how many styles you give him the feats for (less if you kill the spiked chain). It's not overpowered to simply pick out the feats like weapon focus and improved critical and the "boost a particular style feats" like shock trouper and simply give the fighter all of them at a level appropriate point.

Then you still need to fix out of combat utility and mobility and survivability vs. spells, but at least you can stop worrying about feats.

DougL

[Fouredged Sword]

So...

Level 1 - Fighter gains power attack, weapon focus, combat expertise, and combat reflexes, so long as he qualifies for the feats. At a later time, if he becomes qualified for these feats he now gains them.
Level 2 - See level 1 but new feats (posibly TWF, improved trip, Improved sunder exct)

Man diping fighter would become silly quickly. Very front loaded.

[Doug Lampert]

So...

Level 1 - Fighter gains power attack, weapon focus, combat expertise, and combat reflexes, so long as he qualifies for the feats. At a later time, if he becomes qualified for these feats he now gains them.
Level 2 - See level 1 but new feats (posibly TWF, improved trip, Improved sunder exct)

Man diping fighter would become silly quickly. Very front loaded.
No more so than it is now. Most martial builds ALREADY dip fighter for two levels, and no one style will be using many of those feats at once and being a dip means you're locked into your main class's style anyway.

A Barbarian isn't suddenly going to become a good archer because you gave him Point Blank Shot for free for dipping fighter, he'll dip it for exactly what he does now (the cleave chain and maybe trip) and get approximately the same benefit.

And if there are no high level feats and styles to make staying fighter past level 2 worthwhile then that's something to fix.

Edited to add: The fact that this sort of trivial boost is seen as overpowered for martial characters, while no one bats an eye at a level 1 wizard having up to 5 level 1 spells per day and scribe scroll as a bonus feat for when that isn't enough is a pretty good demonstration of why it's hard to fix melee.

All fighter feats all the time is still grossly subpar if you compare it to a DMM cleric for example, and if trying to build the strongest possible character the cleric's player would be a moron to dip fighter just for the feats. Yet somehow this is overpowered! The classes that would dip fighter for the combat boosts are exactly the ones that need boosting. Have fun.

[Fouredged Sword]

I feel that the class is tryign to be to many things.

consider the number of archtypes that fall under "fighter"
TWFing
BFSing
Sabing
Single Blade fenceing.

TWFing should be a bunch of ACF's for ranger removeing all the druid stuff and giveing them something useful (maybe better TWF abilities unique to the class)

Big Fricking Swordsman should be a figher, but with better options, like dungeon crasher. More skill points, and useful skills (UMD, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently). Give him meduim armor Prof and some nice relevent Two handed abilities (the ability to get more str to damage or maybe reach)

Sword and Boarding is a hard one, but Heavy weapon Prof, stability, and dinial abilities. Make it so x number of times per encounter they can take a hit for someone standing next to them, or make a reflex save to prevent someone else from being effected by an area effect ability. make it really hard to ignore them. Give them useful skills and the skill point to use them

single blade fighters should be swashbucklers, but with more stuff to make them useful after 3rd level.

[Doug Lampert]

I feel that the class is tryign to be to many things.

consider the number of archtypes that fall under "fighter"
TWFing
BFSing
Sabing
Single Blade fenceing.



Absolutely true as far as it goes. You could easily split the fighter archetype up. Doing so would even be a very good idea if you have actual class features for each archetype. It's not really a fighter fix, but it's a good idea.

But as far as the current classes go, wizard suffers from the same thing even worse and cleric even more than that, and they "solve" the "problem" by being able to do ANY of their archetypes with a few different spell choices and by having effectively unlimited spells available and ways to store spells to make up for the alleged slot shortage.

Give someone every possible way to hit someone with a stick at once and he won't come close to matching the wizard or cleric. He won't even make it to tier 3.

I simply don't see any good reason TWFing and Single Blade Fencing and sword and board need to be three different characters rather than three ways one character hits things with a stick. All three are "hit it with a sword" and "do the best you can with your off-hand".

Mounted Lance and Sword and Board are actually part of the same knightly combat archetype, there's absolutely no good reason a fighter shouldn't be good at both. But to do that I've had to give one guy two different archetypes.

To make a historical samurai I need to boost mounted combat, archery, and a choice of either two-handed sword or TWF. That's three styles in one guy.

The archetype the generic fighter class needs to be emulating is, "guy who hits stuff with sticks and is useful at something else too". Being able to hit stuff with multiple different sticks used in multiple different ways and with sticks shot out of a bow is all PART of the first half of that archetype!

It's all hitting stuff with sticks, it's still one role in the party, "Guy who stands in front of other people and slows them down and does HP damage". Giving options within that role doesn't really strengthen the class in any fundamental way, and it's a good thing to do for realism and roleplay both.

You can massively downgrade the wizard's versatility (say by replacing with the newer weaker casters) and he's still got the "all archetypes at once" fighter beat cold for versatility.

Worry that you'll make the fighter too strong is nearly pointless IMAO, worry that you'll make him too SPECIALIZED, where he's totally worthless when the solution isn't to hit the target with a stick in a single specific way is the real problem.

Giving multiple styles simply assures he can always hit things with sticks (whether or not doing so is a good idea or will actually help), and if all the class has is hitting things with a stick then it really sucks if even when that's the appropriate response he can't do it half the time because there's rough terrain or his mount won't fit or the target is too hard to trip or the target has FoM or the target is a mobile archer and none of his stuff works at range or....

DougL

[Fouredged Sword]

The solution to your mixed style issue is simple, multiclass into varrious fighting styles, and let them all have nice abilites at predictable break away points.

1st level - grants what is needed to function at this style of fighting
3rd level - grants something unique and useful
6th level - grants something unique and powerful
10th level - mini capstone breakaway
15th level - powerful ability that make the character
20th level - relevent capstone

For example

BFS fighter
1st level - grants power attack, medium armor prof, and prof with all martial two handed weapons
3rd level - focused attack - whenever you make only a single melee attack a round, you deal double damage.
6th level - Free monkey grip (no penelty) and whirlwind attack (does not count as a focused attack)
10th level - You gain an extra 5 ft reach with a Two handed weapon
15th level - Your whirwind attack benifits from your focused attack (dealing double damage
20th level - whenever you make a focused attack you do so as a touch attack.

Mix this in with relevent skills, 6+int skill points per level, feats to fill in the dead levels, and you have something tier 3ish. Yes you deal crushing damage, but you do so difrently than say, a barbarian. Melee classes should look difrent than eachother!

[Anarchy_Kanya]

That's the thing. People say that giving the Fighter more feats isn't a fix. Maybe that's right, because feats aren't that great, but IMO a Fighter should be something like a Wizard between the beatsticks.
Barbarian is a brute. Hor him the best choice is a two-handed weapon, PA, Shock Trooper, charging, hitting HARD.
Knight is sword & board, tank, battlefield control, mounted warrior.
Swashbuckler is about finesse and smart fighting.
Etc.
A Fighter should be able to do all this things at least decently. Maybe not at the same time, but he should have at least three or four different options in a fight and not be a one-trick pony. That's how I imagine a Fighter. He's about fighting. I don't care if he's tier 3, because when I take a FIGHTER I want him to FIGHT, GOOD. That's why my personal fix for a Fighter would be giving him more feats (so he can have more then one trick up his sleeve IN COMBAT) and bigger numbers.

[stainboy]

Give him ALL the fighter feats as quickly as he qualifies and simply kill the bonus feat class feature. Would this hurt anything?


I'd say stick to Core, because handing out every fighter feat in every book ever would be unplayably complex. But I'm skimming through the SRD combat feats and I don't see anything I have a problem handing out free. Here's the stuff that matters for the stock Str-based greatsword operator:


+4 initiative
+2 attack, +4 damage with all weapons
Free Power Attack
Melee AoE (that's still highly situational)
No AoOs for special attacks
+4 to opposed Strength checks and grapple checks
Free Spiked Chain proficiency
Ability to shoot a bow in a non-terrible fashion when needed
Ability to fight while mounted when given the opportunity


I'd say all this does is bring the fighter up to minimum acceptable versatility. So yeah, it's a good start.

E: You'd still have to space this stuff out because of multiclassing, so you'd probably get your feats spread out over 6 levels.

[Snails]

Yeah, it's a decent class feature. Have you actually looked at the mounts you can buy?

A hippogriff trained as a mount goes for 5k gp. A griffon is 10k. That's a lot of cash for something that's probably going to die, but if you need to keep up with a flying wizard at 5th level a hippogriff can help you and a paladin horsey can't.

E: We're going by the strict RAW here where you get a horse or a pony, not my preferred interpretation where I get a winged shark.

You are not making any sense. You are assuming that the DM is not willing to give any love to a lower Tier PC class, even when explicitly encouraged by the DMG. And the solution is thus to rewrite the melee class completely. If your first assumption is true, then the second is a non-starter.

At 6th level a paladin can pick up a Dire Bat or Unicorn.

In principle a Fighter can pick up a decent mount with Leadership skill, if he is so swimming in useless feats. And a cohort that dies can be replaced with modest effort, the only cost is inconvenience.

[Metahuman1]

I'd say stick to Core, because handing out every fighter feat in every book ever would be unplayably complex. But I'm skimming through the SRD combat feats and I don't see anything I have a problem handing out free. Here's the stuff that matters for the stock Str-based greatsword operator:


+4 initiative
+2 attack, +4 damage with all weapons
Free Power Attack
Melee AoE (that's still highly situational)
No AoOs for special attacks
+4 to opposed Strength checks and grapple checks
Free Spiked Chain proficiency
Ability to shoot a bow in a non-terrible fashion when needed
Ability to fight while mounted when given the opportunity


I'd say all this does is bring the fighter up to minimum acceptable versatility. So yeah, it's a good start.

E: You'd still have to space this stuff out because of multiclassing, so you'd probably get your feats spread out over 6 levels.

No more so then allowing a wizard to use a break WBL trick too have the cash to have learned every spell ever.

[Lans]

I think 7 bonus feats into each of the various styles has a nice flow to it. No class will be better than the fighter unless that class gets a bonus to it, unless that person is a human, and then only in one very focused specialty.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'd say stick to Core, because handing out every fighter feat in every book ever would be unplayably complex. But I'm skimming through the SRD combat feats and I don't see anything I have a problem handing out free. Here's the stuff that matters for the stock Str-based greatsword operator:


+4 initiative
+2 attack, +4 damage with all weapons
Free Power Attack
Melee AoE (that's still highly situational)
No AoOs for special attacks
+4 to opposed Strength checks and grapple checks
Free Spiked Chain proficiency
Ability to shoot a bow in a non-terrible fashion when needed
Ability to fight while mounted when given the opportunity


I'd say all this does is bring the fighter up to minimum acceptable versatility. So yeah, it's a good start.

E: You'd still have to space this stuff out because of multiclassing, so you'd probably get your feats spread out over 6 levels.

- The party is attending a noble's ball and the fighter has to talk and interact with the attending lords and ladies without embarrassing the party.

- The fighter is purchasing an enchanted weapon in a strange city and must be sure the merchant selling it isn't cheating him.

- Invisible stalkers attack the party. At other levels, sub in 'shadows' or 'dread wraiths', to taste.

No, you haven't solved the versatility problem. All you did was give him more ways to hit things with sharp metal. The fighter already does that just fine.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The solution to your mixed style issue is simple, multiclass into varrious fighting styles, and let them all have nice abilites at predictable break away points.

1st level - grants what is needed to function at this style of fighting
3rd level - grants something unique and useful
6th level - grants something unique and powerful
10th level - mini capstone breakaway
15th level - powerful ability that make the character
20th level - relevent capstone

While the overall concept is potentially workable, you're thinking too small and too weak with your specific examples.


1st level - grants power attack, medium armor prof, and prof with all martial two handed weapons

Good so far; this is the basic martial chassis.


3rd level - focused attack - whenever you make only a single melee attack a round, you deal double damage.

A monk with the Decisive Strike variant can do this at 1st level with unarmed strikes, so a fighter should probably get it with a better category of weapons at 2nd, not 3rd.


6th level - Free monkey grip (no penelty) and whirlwind attack (does not count as a focused attack)

A warblade can get this at level 7...on top of 6 other maneuvers, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, a bunch of Int abilities, and bonus feats. Even given that these abilities are on top of the normal fighter bonus feats, the fighter is waaay behind. Granted, the maneuver is only adjacent foes rather than all within reach, but it's not enough.


10th level - You gain an extra 5 ft reach with a Two handed weapon

Warblades get this at 9th level with all weapons with a single stance, again on top of everything else they get.


15th level - Your whirwind attack benifits from your focused attack (dealing double damage

Warblade again, Adamantine Hurricane: basically Whirlwind Attack, but two attacks per target at +4 per attack. Works out to basically the same thing.


20th level - whenever you make a focused attack you do so as a touch attack.

Emerald Razor, brilliant energy weapons, wraithstrike.


Mix this in with relevent skills, 6+int skill points per level, feats to fill in the dead levels, and you have something tier 3ish. Yes you deal crushing damage, but you do so difrently than say, a barbarian. Melee classes should look difrent than eachother!

This fighter has 6+Int skills, good proficiencies, 14 bonus feats, and 6 weak-to-mediocre class abilities, while the warblade has 4+Int skills, good proficiencies, 21 bonus feat equivalents, and 9 good class abilities, and the warblade isn't restricted to THF with those abilities.

If you're going to give the fighter class features or fix feats, you really need to think bigger and better. If your fighter gets one bonus feat or one class ability each level, that ability should be as good as a comparable wizard or cleric ability--an ability at fighter 10 or a feat requiring BAB +10 should be roughly equal in power or utility to gaining 1 5th level arcane spell and 1 4th level arcane spell per day. A few minor perks here and there just won't do it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

No, you haven't solved the versatility problem. All you did was give him more ways to hit things with sharp metal. The fighter already does that just fine.
Well, duh. The Fighter is supposed to do that. And he should do that even better. Better then anyone. He doesn't need versatility, at least not what you're talking about. All it needs is more power and options in combat, because that's what the class is about.

[Hague]

Composite Armor: A fighter's experience dealing with many different armor types on multitudes of battlefields have granted them special techniques in wearing magical armors. By adjusting the arrangement and subsituting different parts of a magical armor a fighter may wear more than one suit of any type of armor. The Armor bonus to the fighter's AC is equal to the highest armor bonus granted by either armor. The highest enhancement bonus to AC of either armor is applied to AC as well. Each suit of armor contributes any unique abilities separately and equally. Armors of different types (light, medium, heavy) may be combined. The ASFC, Dex bonus limits, and other related attributes are averaged between the two armor types. The resulting composite armor type (light, medium, or heavy) is determined by what two types of armor are worn at the same time. Combining two armors of the same type result in the same type. Combining light and heavy armors create medium armor, combining light and medium armor creates light armor and heavy and medium armor combined create heavy armor.

Warfare Lore: Fascinated with warfare and all its nuances, a fighter has established a detailed account of many battles, tactics, weapons, and armor. A fighter may make a special Warfare Lore check to obtain relevant information on anything related to warfare, including famous battles, military units, tactics, weapons, and armor. The fighter makes a knowledge check adding his Fighter level plus his intelligence bonus. The check result determines the detail or veracity of what the fighter can know. See the Bardic Knowledge table for comparable results.

Weapon Versatility: A Fighter specializes in the use of many types of weapons. At 5th level and every 4 levels after that, the fighter selects a type of weapon. This weapon may make free use of Weapon Focus feat or any other feat that requires choosing a specific weapon with which to use the feat, ie Weapon Specialization, weapon mastery, etc.

Combat Observation: A fighter needs to be constantly aware of a changing battlefield. By paying attention to combatants and how they effectively avoid effects, the fighter can copy their technique and grant themselves the same evasion. Whenever a fighter is affected by a spell or effect that targets or affects multiple targets and allows a saving throw, fighters roll and determine their saving throw outcomes after every other target. If any of the targets (ally or enemy) manage to make their saving throw to resist the effect the fighter gains a bonus on their save equal to half of the highest base save bonus of all saving targets or the fighter's class level divided by 4, whichever is higher.

Improved Combat Observation: As Combat Observation, but if any of the additionally saving targets reduce the effect of the ability through a class feature such as Evasion or Mettle, the fighter also gains the benefit of those abilities for this save.

Magic Weapon Synthesis: A fighter is often at odds to have the right weapon for the right time and has learned through focus to combine the magical abilities of the weapons in her possession through concentration. As a swift action, a fighter may combine the special abilities (but not the enhancement bonus) of any two weapons in her possession (currently held or on the character's person) The weapon must be able to support the abilities swapped. For instance a disrupting ability could not be swapped to any weapon that is not blunt. Abilities are combined into one weapon, stripping the other weapon temporarily of it's special abilities (but not enhancement bonus) This effect lasts for one round, ending on the fighter's next turn. Duplicate abilities do not stack. This ability has no effect on Artifacts either to combine into or take from. Weapon abilities with limited daily uses are still used up when returned to their original weapon. If the weapon is dropped, destroyed or otherwise removed from the fighter's possession, the abilities return to their appropriate weapon.

Imperative Pursuit: Sometimes a fighter must dog their enemy in order to achieve victory in combat. If any enemy begins their turn in any square threatened by a fighter with this ability and then moves out of the square by any means, the fighter may spend an immediate action to move a number of squares no greater than the fighter's move speed to move to a square that would allow the fighter to continue to threaten that target. The fighter can move no further than they could with a standard move action and they must obey all terrain features and effects in the way. The fighter may use this ability multiple times in a single encounter but they can only move a total of 5 ft for every level of fighter they possess in a single encounter. That means a 10th level fighter may use Imperative Pursuit to follow a threatened creature 10 ft, then another creature 20 ft, but not be able to follow another creature that later moves 25 ft. The fighter's movement provokes an attack of opportunity as normal.

[Big Fau]

Well, duh. The Fighter is supposed to do that. And he should do that even better. Better then anyone. He doesn't need versatility, at least not what you're talking about. All it needs is more power and options in combat, because that's what the class is about.

Funny that: This is the exact reason he is Tier 5. All he can do is hit things.

In fact, the classes that are best at hitting thing are the Full Casters when properly buffed, the Warblade and Crusader, the two relevant Meldshapers, the Psychic Warrior, the Barbarian, and the Fighter.

Hitting things has NEVER been the Fighter's problem. The Fighter can pick one or two really easy methods of hitting things, and then be one of the best classes in the game when it comes to hitting things in one of those two ways.

That's the problem though: All he does is hit things in one of two ways. If you stretched it a bit he can squeeze in a third, but the first two suffer dramatically from doing so. And whenever the campaign calls for a mechanical task that can't be resolved by hitting things in one of two or three ways the Fighter ends up sitting on his hands or relying on the WBL (of which he has very little if he chose Ranged and Melee as his two methods of hitting things, seeing as he has to sink at least 200,000gp into one of his weapons alone, never mind the rest of his gear).

When the class has to rely on the player's ability to Role Play in order to contribute to a situation, it means the class has a flaw. The Fighter relies on the player's ability to Role Play in EVERY non-Combat situation. The class is fundamentally flawed as a result.

People* like Tier 1 classes because the flaws are little more than a scuff on the underside of the rear bumper of the Ferrari they are driving.
People* like Tier 2 classes because the can respond to these flaws by rewriting reality to make the flaw stop existing.
People* like Tier 3 classes because they can overcome these flaws through sheer level up or by applying their other class features to the situation.
People* like Tier 4 classes because they have the ability to mitigate these flaws by using their class features, while still leaving the sense of weakness for RP-purposes.
People* do not like Tier 5 classes because the flaws of those classes have a nasty tendency to cripple themselves in the process of trying to correct their flaws.
People* do not like Tier 6 classes because everything they can do is replicable by a Tier 5 class.

*"People" in this case refers to the people who want to fix the Fighter. This is very much an over-generalization, but whatever.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Funny that: This is the exact reason he is Tier 5. All he can do is hit things.
And... is that somehow bad? One of the things that I read about Fighter is that he can't fight level appropriate opponents. That's why I propose making Fighters better at fighting. So they won't fail at their job.


Hitting things has NEVER been the Fighter's problem.
Yeaaaah. And one sentence earlier you where saying that everyone and their mother can do it better then the Fighter. Which is it? Make up your mind. :smallsigh:


The Fighter can pick one or two really easy methods of hitting things, and then be one of the best classes in the game when it comes to hitting things in one of those two ways.

That's the problem though: All he does is hit things in one of two ways. If you stretched it a bit he can squeeze in a third, but the first two suffer dramatically from doing so. And whenever the campaign calls for a mechanical task that can't be resolved by hitting things in one of two or three ways the Fighter ends up sitting on his hands or relying on the WBL
And you just laughed out my suggestion on making Fighters better at it.


When the class has to rely on the player's ability to Role Play in order to contribute to a situation, it means the class has a flaw.
It's not the Fighters job to contribute to anything outside combat. There are other classes for that.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

And... is that somehow bad? One of the things that I read about Fighter is that he can't fight level appropriate opponents. That's why I propose making Fighters better at fighting. So they won't fail at their job.


Yeaaaah. And one sentence earlier you where saying that everyone and their mother can do it better then the Fighter. Which is it? Make up your mind. :smallsigh:

And you just laughed out my suggestion on making Fighters better at it.

Everyone does combat better than the fighter at comparable levels of optimization, but combat is the one area where fighters can contribute. A psychic warrior might make a better tripper than a fighter, and a barbarian might make a better charger than a fighter, but a fighter can make a respectable tripper or charger and contribute to combat just fine. While it would be nice if the fighter were better at his role than anyone else, improving his versatility to ensure he isn't a one-trick pony is much more important than improving his power.


It's not the Fighters job to contribute to anything outside combat. There are other classes for that.

Incorrect. First of all, every class should be able to contribute in and out of combat, and a fighter is no different; a hardened mercenary should be able to intimidate people and have some knowledge of enemy tactics and dispositions, a guard should be able to spot thieves and troublemakers and find signs of forced entry, and so forth. Being the guy who hits things with pointy bits of metal doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything else.

Second, every other class can contribute in and out of combat--even just in core, the paladin and ranger have skills to do so, and even the lowly monk eventually gets Tongue of the Sun and Moon to talk to people without needing items or Speak Language ranks and Abundant Step to get around for stealth, exploration, and such. The fighter has to have something to do outside of combat, even if it's just an expanded skill list with perception and social skills on it, because (A) expecting the fighter to get by purely on roleplaying when every other class has roleplaying plus the mechanics to back it up is unfair to the fighter player and (B) if someone is playing the fighter and isn't a pure hack-'n'-slash player, chances are he or she will get bored fast if he or she isn't any good out of combat.

[Seerow]

And... is that somehow bad? One of the things that I read about Fighter is that he can't fight level appropriate opponents. That's why I propose making Fighters better at fighting. So they won't fail at their job.


That's because level appropriate things don't get beat by hitting things with sticks. No matter how good you are at that job, you need more. Giving the fighter better initiative, damage, hit bonuses, etc don't really matter.

What the fighter needs is more versatility, the ability to react to more potential enemies. They need defenses against high level spells, not just good saving throws, but status immunities, status removers, miss chances, etc. They need not just better attacks, but the ability to make their attacks at range as well as in melee without having to spend half their resources to do it. They need to be able to do their full damage when they don't have a clear path available to the target. They need to have access to more mobility, the ability to reach that flying creature, to follow that creature who can teleport across the battlefield, or prevent that creature from teleporting across the planet. They need to have access to the action economy, so that everyone else isn't getting 2 or more actions to the Fighter's one.

High level fights aren't beat each other with sticks and see who's left standing unless your enemy is a tarrasque. There's a reason why tarrasque's are considered jokes for their CR. Giving the fighter some more beat stick bonuses doesn't actually fix anything at all about the fighter.

[Big Fau]

And... is that somehow bad? One of the things that I read about Fighter is that he can't fight level appropriate opponents. That's why I propose making Fighters better at fighting. So they won't fail at their job.

They can't fight certain level-appropriate encounters because some of those encounters are down-right impossible for anyone below Tier 2 due to spellcasting or other encounter-shattering ability. For example, even a Tier 3 party struggles against an ambush if there's a Mind Flayer involved. Moment of Perfect Mind doesn't help the Warblade at all when he gets hit with a Mind Blast in the surprise round.

But that isn't the point of fixing the Fighter. The point of fixing the Fighter is to bump it up to mid-Tier 4 or Tier 3. If you just give them all of the combat feats, they are still only good at combat (which is the definition of Tier 5: Only good at one thing, and reliant on the player's ability to RP his way out of other situations because the class features cannot contribute in a meaningful way to the situation at hand). Every Tier 4 class has something they are good at that isn't combat in addition to being good at combat.

That's what people want to fix about the Fighter: Make him the best in combat and at least decent at something that isn't combat.


Yeaaaah. And one sentence earlier you where saying that everyone and their mother can do it better then the Fighter. Which is it? Make up your mind. :smallsigh:

See above. And no I did not say that everyone is better at hitting things than the Fighter; I listed the classes that were good at hitting things (and included the Fighter in that list). Please don't try to strawman my posts.


And you just laughed out my suggestion on making Fighters better at it.

Take a look at the average Warblade or Crusader build: They are built around doing one thing during combat. However, that one thing is supplemented by actions that can be used even when their one trick isn't going to work. Hell, some of them aren't even geared towards using their one trick during combat, but they make up for it with their maneuvers.

Now take a look at all of the combat options the Fighter has. Overrun, Bull Rush, and Charge are not viable if the terrain does not permit it, Tripping doesn't work against enemies too big to trip (note: Swordsages don't suffer this problem with Setting Sun thanks to WotC not putting in that clause), Grappling is likewise (and it's complex to pull off), Sundering is a horrible idea, and Disarming doesn't work on most encounters.

Those actions are overly-limited. When the Warblade can't charge because of Difficult Terrain, he merely uses a maneuver (sometimes it's Quicksilver Motion to let him get out of the terrain so he can charge, sometime's it's a White Raven maneuver so the party can benefit from his actions, and sometimes he just moves and Mountain Hammers their ass). When the Warblade can't Disarm someone, he just uses a maneuver that would work in the situation. When the Warblade can't trip something, he uses Overwhelming Mountain Hammer or any of his strikes and doesn't care.


The Fighter may not have maneuvers (and I do not count Martial Study, seeing as you only get to use them once and only ever get 3), but he doesn't have any options at all when his combat abilities aren't working. And the funny thing is that the entire MM is built in such a way that the Fighter eventually cannot use them. Chain Trippers rely on spell effects to prevent the enemy's Size category from affecting their ability to trip them, but most Trippers never get past Large size (due to the limitations on Enlarge Person), thus rendering Gargantuan creatures his bane. Chargers often die horribly if they get hit with an AoO from something that got a higher Init, and god forbid the target uses that AoO to initiate a Grapple (because it likely has a higher Grapple check). Speaking of Grappling, the tactic only works properly when there's a singular enemy. Most of the encounters in the MM recommend that the creature is encountered with a group of other creatures, and then the stats of some level-appropriate encounters far out-tempos the Fighter's Grapple checks. Never mind Gargantuan enemies, which are straight-up impossible to grapple unless you are Huge sized. And if the Fighter is using Ranged combat, then it means either the enemy is out of his possible melee range (counting movement) or the Fighter isn't doing his job of protecting the party while attacking the enemy.


Expanding the Fighter's options in combat does help the class, but doing so while only using the existing combat options does not. Your recommendation utilizes only existing methods, and thus does not help the Fighter nearly as much as you think.


It's not the Fighters job to contribute to anything outside combat. There are other classes for that.

And what do you expect the player to do when the party's Bard is using his Diplomatic prowess (read: Bluff checks and Glibness) to end a war? Sit on his hands during the peace talk?

The point is this: EVERYONE above Tier 5 is capable of doing something relevant to the situation, regardless of what the situation is. Why should the Fighter not have that same luxury?

[Hiro Protagonest]

The point is this: EVERYONE above Tier 5 is capable of doing something relevant to the situation, regardless of what the situation is. Why should the Fighter not have that same luxury?

It's a diplomatic mission. What do these guys do?

Ranger: I have knowledge skills.
Urban Ranger: I have Sense Motive.
Barbarian: I put ranks in intimidate and listen.
Fighter: ...I spent all my skill points in climb, jump, and swim. I'll be standing outside.

[Big Fau]

It's a diplomatic mission. What do these guys do?

Ranger: I have knowledge skills.
Urban Ranger: I have Sense Motive.
Barbarian: I put ranks in intimidate and listen.
Fighter: ...I spent all my skill points in climb, jump, and swim. I'll be standing outside.

That's basically what it boils down to for Tier 4s, although I'm fairly sure that Rangers have something similar to Invisibility so they can eavesdrop better.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

But you guys do realize that by saying "make Fighter better at fighting" I obviously mean "make him more versatile at fighting", right? If you think that "better" means only "bigger numbers" then it's understandable that you don't get what I saying.
If I would try to seriously fix the Fighter I would do two things. Like I was saying earlier:
1. Give him more feats - As he is now he still doesn't get enough of them for it to matter. More feats will give him more options. Despite the opinion that feats aren't as good as real class features, they can be good, it's just that you have to invest into feat chains, which means that even a Fighter won't have enough feats. With more he could easily take multiple feat chains and be versatile. "What, charging doesn't work because the enemy can fly? Well, then let me pull out my bow and shoot him, I'm even better with the bow". A secondary gain would be that the Fighter would have normal feats free to pick something else then combat feats, so he could invest into something other then combat.
2. Bigger numbers - Why pick Fighter when some other class is still better then him at fighting? It should be his domain, he should be the best. That's why I suggest bigger numbers. Fighter should be chosen when you want to FIGHT. That's the real problem. Other classes fight as good or better then the class that should be best at it.


It's a diplomatic mission. What do these guys do?

Ranger: I have knowledge skills.
Urban Ranger: I have Sense Motive.
Barbarian: I put ranks in intimidate and listen.
Fighter: ...I spent all my skill points in climb, jump, and swim. I'll be standing outside.
That's not his job.
If you want every class to be good at everything then go ahead, I'm not stoping you. I know my priorities. A Fighters job is to fight, but everybody is doing it better. That's the first thing that should be fixed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But you guys do realize that by saying "make Fighter better at fighting" I obviously mean "make him more versatile at fighting", right? If you think that "better" means only "bigger numbers" then it's understandable that you don't get what I saying.
If I would try to seriously fix the Fighter I would do two things. Like I was saying earlier:
1. Give him more feats - As he is now he still doesn't get enough of them for it to matter. More feats will give him more options. Despite the opinion that feats aren't as good as real class features, they can be good, it's just that you have to invest into feat chains, which means that even a Fighter won't have enough feats. With more he could easily take multiple feat chains and be versatile. "What, charging doesn't work because the enemy can fly? Well, then let me pull out my bow and shoot him, I'm even better with the bow". A secondary gain would be that the Fighter would have normal feats free to pick something else then combat feats, so he could invest into something other then combat.
2. Bigger numbers - Why pick Fighter when some other class is still better then him at fighting? It should be his domain, he should be the best. That's why I suggest bigger numbers. Fighter should be chosen when you want to FIGHT. That's the real problem. Other classes fight as good or better then the class that should be best at it.Kid, you can say all you like that you're not just giving him bigger numbers, but you are. Feats and bigger numbers equal even bigger numbers. Old fighter had big numbers with charging and okay numbers with archery. New fighter has big numbers with both of those. You're just giving bigger numbers.
That's not his job.

So wait, in a campaign where not all the encounters are combat, you shouldn't play a fighter?

What about a warblade? He has diplomacy as a class skill, he has Leaping Dragon Stance and Absolute Steel, he has Sudden Leap to pull off a double jump, he has Mountain Hammer, he has balance as a class skill, he has knowledge skills. He's not just fighting. Is he advertised to fight? Yes. Is he labeled as a frontliner? Yes. So is the fighter.

[Big Fau]

That's not his job.
If you want every class to be good at everything then go ahead, I'm not stoping you. I know my priorities. A Fighters job is to fight, but everybody is doing it better. That's the first thing that should be fixed.

And it isn't the Warblade's job either. Or the Ranger's, or the Barbarian's, or the Hexblade's, but every one of those classes is capable of contributing to the situation by virtue of their class features.

The Fighter can't. Why should he be left out when even the effing Barbarian can get in on the action without relying on the player's ability to RP?

And, yet again, everybody is not "doing it better". In terms of sheer statistics, the Barbarian and the Fighter have the highest practical damage per round output that doesn't rely on a daily resource. There's nothing wrong with the amount, it's the methods used to do so that are a part of the problem.


You are ignoring the other problems the class has in order to focus exclusively on the "Combat" part, something that can't be fixed by giving the Fighter more feats.

[Big Fau]

Just curios, what tier would a bonus feat every level be for fighter

Same exact Tier. We've stated this before.

[Seerow]

But you guys do realize that by saying "make Fighter better at fighting" I obviously mean "make him more versatile at fighting", right? If you think that "better" means only "bigger numbers" then it's understandable that you don't get what I saying.
If I would try to seriously fix the Fighter I would do two things. Like I was saying earlier:
1. Give him more feats - As he is now he still doesn't get enough of them for it to matter. More feats will give him more options. Despite the opinion that feats aren't as good as real class features, they can be good, it's just that you have to invest into feat chains, which means that even a Fighter won't have enough feats. With more he could easily take multiple feat chains and be versatile. "What, charging doesn't work because the enemy can fly? Well, then let me pull out my bow and shoot him, I'm even better with the bow". A secondary gain would be that the Fighter would have normal feats free to pick something else then combat feats, so he could invest into something other then combat.
2. Bigger numbers - Why pick Fighter when some other class is still better then him at fighting? It should be his domain, he should be the best. That's why I suggest bigger numbers. Fighter should be chosen when you want to FIGHT. That's the real problem. Other classes fight as good or better then the class that should be best at it.


That's not his job.
If you want every class to be good at everything then go ahead, I'm not stoping you. I know my priorities. A Fighters job is to fight, but everybody is doing it better. That's the first thing that should be fixed.

Did you seriously just say that you didn't want to just give fighters bigger numbers to fix them, then give an example where half the fix is bigger numbers? Seriously?


And no, more feats won't make a difference. It might make him slightly more versatile. But giving a Fighter every fighter bonus feat in existance simultaneously would still get him maybe to tier 4. Bonus feats really are not that good. Not without also overhauling whole damn feat system, at which point why not just fix the fighter itself?

[Doug Lampert]

You are ignoring the other problems the class has in order to focus exclusively on the "Combat" part, something that can't be fixed by giving the Fighter more feats.

Even the combat part has problems that aren't fixed by bigger numbers on attack (which is all most fighter feats help with, bonuses to attack or damage or to types of attacks).

But mobility and survivability both matter tactically, and no number of ordinary fighter feats will help with those at high level.

A flying wizard behind a wind-wall with a caster level 1 wand of MM is level 5. He's also death from above to a level 20 fighter who's depending on his class features and unwilling to simply run far away (which may not always be possible when you're limited to ground movement).

But to me the concept that a high level fighter SHOULDN'T be able to stand watch or apply first aid or move past an enemy on the battlefield is bizzare. And fighter feats don't help with any of those either.

Adding feats simply doesn't help unless you upgrade what the feats do.

DougL

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Kid, you can say all you like that you're not just giving him bigger numbers, but you are. Feats and bigger numbers equal even bigger numbers. Old fighter had big numbers with charging and okay numbers with archery. New fighter has big numbers with both of those. You're just giving bigger numbers.
Nope. I'm giving him more options. If some of them are bigger numbers, well, so be it.


So wait, in a campaign where not all the encounters are combat, you shouldn't play a fighter?
Why not?
You should play a Fighter when you're interested in fighting. BUT other classes can fight AND do something more. You say "Lets make the Fighter do something more then fight, like all the other classes". I say "Lets make the Fighter better at fighting, because that's what he is/should be about".
When you're rating him by standards that don't even concern him, it normal that he will look bad.


What about a warblade? He has diplomacy as a class skill, he has Leaping Dragon Stance and Absolute Steel, he has Sudden Leap to pull off a double jump, he has Mountain Hammer, he has balance as a class skill, he has knowledge skills. He's not just fighting. Is he advertised to fight? Yes. Is he labeled as a frontliner? Yes. So is the fighter.
Yes. So? I'm suggesting to make him better at fighting, but you disagree. Why should the Fighter try being like a Warblade? You've got Warblade for that.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

It might make him slightly more versatile. But giving a Fighter every fighter bonus feat in existance simultaneously would still get him maybe to tier 4.
And that's what I'm going for. He does not need to be tier 3 if he's doing what he's supposed to do.


A flying wizard behind a wind-wall with a caster level 1 wand of MM is level 5. He's also death from above to a level 20 fighter who's depending on his class features and unwilling to simply run far away (which may not always be possible when you're limited to ground movement).
Yup. Compare Fighter to a Wizard, at 20th level at that. That will show me. :smallsigh:

[Seerow]

Nope. I'm giving him more options. If some of them are bigger numbers, well, so be it.


Why not?
You should play a Fighter when you're interested in fighting. BUT other classes can fight AND do something more. You say "Lets make the Fighter do something more then fight, like all the other classes". I say "Lets make the Fighter better at fighting, because that's what he is/should be about".
When you're rating him by standards that don't even concern him, it normal that he will look bad.


Yes. So? I'm suggesting to make him better at fighting, but you disagree. Why should the Fighter try being like a Warblade? You've got Warblade for that.

Why shouldn't a Fighter be capable of standing guard and noticing things? Why shouldn't the fighter be capable of being a tactician who has knowledge in the fighting styles and general tactics of various types of enemies? Why can't the Fighter be a General who has to deal with people on a diplomatic level at least as much as on a tactical level? Seriously, you are reading too much into the name of the class, and thus want the fighter to be a dumb melee brute whose only role is to sit there and beat things with a stick.

At low levels, that's boring. At high levels, that's not even really an accepted role anymore. Even if you fix the fighter's in combat issues, he should have SOMETHING to do outside of combat. He doesn't have to be the best at it, but there should be things for him to do, rather than go eat pizza while the rest of the party does stuff.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yup. Compare Fighter to a Wizard, at 20th level at that. That will show me. :smallsigh:

You misread it. The fighter is level 20.

The wizard is level 5.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yup. Compare Fighter to a Wizard, at 20th level at that. That will show me. :smallsigh:

It's not level 20 wizard. It's level 5 wizard vs level 20 fighter.

Edit: Factotum'd!

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Why shouldn't a Fighter be capable of standing guard and noticing things?
Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:


Why shouldn't the fighter be capable of being a tactician who has knowledge in the fighting styles and general tactics of various types of enemies?
Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:


Why can't the Fighter be a General who has to deal with people on a diplomatic level at least as much as on a tactical level?
And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:


and thus want the fighter to be a dumb melee brute whose only role is to sit there and beat things with a stick.
Nope. I'm trying to give him more options, but you don't accept that it can be done some other way than hombrewing new class features.


It's not level 20 wizard. It's level 5 wizard vs level 20 fighter.
Yes, tier 1 classes are powerful. What's your point?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:


Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:


And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:


Nope. I'm trying to give him more options, but you don't accept that it can be done some other way than hombrewing new class features.

Lack of relevant class skills, ranks or class features that make him even semi-compentent in those areas. Your more options are limited to combat which everybody is pointing out is not the only or biggest issue with fighter. It's that fighter can't do squat combat is not invovled.

[Lord_Gareth]

Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:

Yep. Spot, Listen, Search and Sense Motive are all cross-class skills, rendering the basic functions of being a town guard impossible for the Fighter.


Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:

Yep. Knowledges are also cross-class, which means the Fighter can't/doesn't study enemy strengths, weaknesses, and tactics. For that matter, Knowledge (History), which covers military tactics, is also cross-class, as is Perform (Weapon Drill) for your gladiator types.


And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:

Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are all cross-class, as is Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). Additionally, he usually doesn't have the leftover points to spend on Charisma.


Nope. I'm trying to give him more options, but you don't accept that it can be done some other way than hombrewing new class features.

Let me tell you a secret - we all have a fighter fix. They're like vampire romance novels - everyone writes one, but not everyone tries to publish one. There are more fighter fixes and attempted fighter fixes on this forum alone than there are initiatives to cure cancer worldwide. About once every two weeks or so, someone posts a feat-centric or 'big numbers' fix, and inevitably what ends up happening is it gets ripped to shreds because it does not function. So until you show me an eighth level fighter fix that can fight this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) and still contribute outside of combat, I'm not going to be terribly impressed by hearing the same disproven and discounted design theories I've heard a million times before.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

It's that fighter can't do squat combat is not invovled.
So? A Fighter is about fighting. That's enough for me.

[Seerow]

Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:

Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:


And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:

No spot/listen/search as class skills. No Knowledge(History) as class skill. No Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive as class skills. Typically bad attributes in the linked stats, and only 2 skill points per level.

Basically anything skill related that is not Climbing, Jumping, or Swimming, a fighter can't do. You can roleplay it all you want, but you're going to suck at it. But you're saying the only fix the Fighter needs is MORE FEATS and BIGGER NUMBERS, which precludes fixing skills, or giving any abilities that help outside of combat.




Nope. I'm trying to give him more options, but you don't accept that it can be done some other way than hombrewing new class features.

Because more feats isn't going to do enough on its own. **** I pointed out that giving every fighter feat in existence at once would barely be tier 4, and you said this is fine because tier 4 is all that is needed. You neglect to realize that this means a fighter with 9 extra bonus feats or however many extra you want to get will still be tier 5.

Anyway, regardless of how you choose to fix the fighter, fixing it IS homebrew. If you want a Tier 4 fighter without homebrew, you use Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher variants, and maybe Thug Variant thrown in as well for some extra skills. If you're talking about adding more feats, or increasing numbers, you're already in homebrew territory, so what your saying is "you want to make homebrew rather than homebrew!". This is a stupid statement and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it.

[Doug Lampert]

Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:
Yes, spot and listen are both cross-class. You CAN NOT spot an equivalent level stealthy character.


Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:
All skills are cross-class, and fighers don't have the skill points to take them.


And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:
No diplomacy, no sense motive, no bluff, no chance.


Nope. I'm trying to give him more options, but you don't accept that it can be done some other way than hombrewing new class features.

You're giving him the same old options he's already got.


Yes, tier 1 classes are powerful. What's your point?
And Tier 3 or 4 characters are useful, then there's the fighter. That wizard can "defeat" a character 15 levels higher, this isn't tier 1 being powerful, it's fighters being unable to fight because they lack mobility and ways to counter spells.

DougL

[Hiro Protagonest]

Being a Fighter somehow makes you bad at this? :smallconfused:
Listen and spot are cross-class and depend on your 2nd least important stat. A rogue, no, an expert, of half your level can sneak past.

Being a Fighter makes it somehow impossible? :smallconfused:
All knowledges are cross-class.

And why can't he? What stops him? :smallconfused:

Diplomacy.

[Seerow]

I want to point out in 5 minutes we had 4 different people post the exact same response to the skills portion of that.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Yep. Spot, Listen, Search and Sense Motive are all cross-class skills, rendering the basic functions of being a town guard impossible for the Fighter.
You need skills other then the skill to fight to be a town guard?! :smalleek:


Yep. Knowledges are also cross-class, which means the Fighter can't/doesn't study enemy strengths, weaknesses, and tactics. For that matter, Knowledge (History), which covers military tactics, is also cross-class, as is Perform (Weapon Drill) for your gladiator types.
"That's how I use my Intelligence score in combat, dumbass!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) :smallbiggrin:


Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are all cross-class, as is Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). Additionally, he usually doesn't have the leftover points to spend on Charisma.
If generals do all the diplomatic stuff then who needs diplomats?
Also, who is saying that a general must be a straight Fighter?

Eh... We just have to agree to disagree, because we see the Fighter in different light. That's all.

[Lord_Gareth]

So? A Fighter is about fighting. That's enough for me.

Not according to the fighter I've been reading in the PHB. Supposedly these guys should be pirates and mercenaries, knights and samurai, noble lords and back-alley thugs and, basically, cover just about as many different archetypes as a Wizard does. These archetypes are just as defined by their out-of-combat skills (even the Mercenary should know Survival, some Crafts, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and probably a bit of Intimidate and Diplomacy) as they are by how, when, and who they choose to fight.

But the Fighter not only doesn't have access to those skills, he doesn't have the skill points to spend on them, nor does he have access to vital archetypical in-combat skills like Balance or Tumble that a trained warrior should have by virtue of being let out of the house with a sharp object by his master. Instead, the Fighter's chassis looks an awful lot like an NPC class.

This is a roleplaying game, not a combat-only game. Every single class should have a method of mattering to the game world outside of death combat.

[Grim Reader]

Yep. Spot, Listen, Search and Sense Motive are all cross-class skills, rendering the basic functions of being a town guard impossible for the Fighter.

Profession: Town Guard? Sergeant? Liutenant?

Except Fighters don't get Profession...

[Anarchy_Kanya]

This is a roleplaying game, not a combat-only game. Every single class should have a method of mattering to the game world outside of death combat.
Lack of crunch doesn't prohibit you from roleplaying. >.>

[Doug Lampert]

You need skills other then the skill to fight to be a town guard?! :smalleek:

Yes. Town guards are historically the police force, they also watch the gates and act as customs enforcers, they also keep watch on the walls.

No spot, everyone and their pet dog can sneak over the wall at will and smash your fighter in the back of the head.

No sense motive, they can't find a haystack in a haystack if the smuggler is smuggling hey.

No information skills. They can't even round up twice the usual suspects.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You need skills other then the skill to fight to be a town guard?! :smalleek:

...

You're not much of a guard when a guy with an NPC class that's half your level can sneak past you.

[Seerow]

You need skills other then the skill to fight to be a town guard?! :smalleek:

Yes, believe it or not you need to be able to notice a thief to catch a thief. Or if guarding the walls, need to be able to notice detains like that guy trying to scale your wall or swimming in your moat.



"That's how I use my Intelligence score in combat, dumbass!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) :smallbiggrin:

This proves what exactly? Except how different a comic medium is from an actual game of course.



If generals do all the diplomatic stuff then who needs diplomats?
Also, who is saying that a general must be a straight Fighter?

You're the one who asked why the Fighter couldn't do the job. Why should a Fighter have to multiclass to take on the role of leading armies? After all, he's a Fighter, he's supposed to be awesome at Fighting.

Diplomats are fine and have their uses, but past a certain point Military commanders need to have some sort of social skills. At the very least they need Sense Motive to recognize when they're being bull****ted, and as mentioned some diplomacy and bluff can go a long way. It's also not just dealing with enemies (though I would expect a General to do that to some degree), but also dealing with his own subordinate officers.

[Big Fau]

So? A Fighter is about fighting. That's enough for me.

Then your idea of fixing the class is not relevant to this thread.


If generals do all the diplomatic stuff then who needs diplomats?

Funny that: In the USA, a lot of their politicians have a military service record. Especially when you look at the Presidential record. My knowledge of past Presidents is rusty, but I do believe that at least 1/3 of them have served in the Army/Navy/Marines.

[MesiDoomstalker]

So? A Fighter is about fighting. That's enough for me.

Then you don't realize the difference betwen Tier 3+ and Tier 4-. Tier 3 can do what its supposed to (in this case fighting) very well without breaking the game AND do other stuff fairly compentently. Tier 4 can do what they are supposed to well but not much else or do a bit of everything but can't excel. A poorly built Bard is a classic tier 4, it can do a lot of things but can't excel at them. Tier 5's can't even do what they are supposed to do well on top of doing nothing else remotly compentently. Your fixes may bump Fighter into tier 4 as they become combat masters. With no versatility outside of combat. Your short changing your potential by limiting yourself to combat situations. Why be master of combat when a higher level character takes you down because the BBEG can talk him into it.

Overall, your intentionally limiting yourself because you can't get past the name "Fighter."


I want to point out in 5 minutes we had 4 different people post the exact same response to the skills portion of that.

+1

[Lord_Gareth]

"That's how I use my Intelligence score in combat, dumbass!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html) :smallbiggrin:

Roy rolled a stat spread high enough to make certain lesser deities envious of his natural capabilities, and not every - or even most - Fighters are going to roll so high that they don't have a dump stat. And that's not even getting into the ones that got point buy or elite array instead, who have to make hard choices about which ability scores matter to them.

Additionally, though Roy is well-equipped to remember the weaknesses of golems and other constructs, I ask you this: if he was suddenly confronted by Illurian of the Myriad Glimpses, how does Roy figure out how to fight her? How about a balor? Inevitable? Troll Hunter? Banshee? Ghast?

You can see the problem, I assume.

[Big Fau]

Lack of crunch doesn't prohibit you from roleplaying. >.>

The abilities of a class are not directly tied to the roleplaying aspect. However, the roleplaying aspect is a variable factor. Variable factors are unreliable when it comes to adjudicating the efficacy of a class in this system. Everyone can role play, but not everyone is as good at role playing as the next person.

For this reason, we adjudicate the power of a class through the mechanics provided by the rules as written and through any information provided by the orignal poster.


The reason we bring up noncombat scenarios is because the Fighter has no mechanical method of contributing to those scenarios, and that those scenarios make up a large portion of this game. Giving the Fighter the crunch needed to contribute to those situations allows people who aren't very good at role playing a chance to do something other than sit there and twiddle their thumbs.


This is why fixing the noncombat aspect of the Fighter is so important.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The abilities of a class are not directly tied to the roleplaying aspect. However, the roleplaying aspect is a variable factor. Variable factors are unreliable when it comes to adjudicating the efficacy of a class in this system. Everyone can role play, but not everyone is as good at role playing as the next person.

For this reason, we adjudicate the power of a class through the mechanics provided by the rules as written and through any information provided by the orignal poster.


The reason we bring up noncombat scenarios is because the Fighter has no mechanical method of contributing to those scenarios, and that those scenarios make up a large portion of this game. Giving the Fighter the crunch needed to contribute to those situations allows people who aren't very good at role playing a chance to do something other than sit there and twiddle their thumbs.


This is why fixing the noncombat aspect of the Fighter is so important.

+1. This explains everything very elagantly. Thanks Big Fau.

[Lord_Gareth]

Lack of crunch doesn't prohibit you from roleplaying. >.>

I just saw this, and felt the need to reply to this:

Lack of method-acting capability shouldn't stop you from roleplaying either.

I do the weird voices and bad accents when I roleplay. I wheeze when my character's lungs have been perforated repeatedly, gesture, et cetera so forth. I'm perfectly comfortable with resolving social situations through pure roleplaying. But not every player is. Someone who is shy in real life, unable to method act, maybe possessed of a speech impediment or another barrier shouldn't be penalized because they, the player, lack a skill set they would like their character to have. That's the reason every class needs a mechanical way to matter outside of combat, so that the mechanics, the tools with which we actualize our characters' interactions with the game world(s), can be used to help them roleplay their concept if their own capabilities are either absent or simply fail them.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Don't mind me. I'm just rambling. I can see that it's bad that Fighter is tier 5, but I don't see the need in making him tier 3. Just make him very good at what matters to his job (which is fighting).

[Seerow]

Don't mind me. I'm just rambling. I can see that it's bad that Fighter is tier 5, but I don't see the need in making him tier 3. Just make him very good at what matters to his job (which is fighting).

Nothing you've suggested thus far has really even succeeded at that. Just to remind you. At best you've kept the Fighter relevant an extra couple of levels. By high levels the Fighter still has no defenses and no mobility, and at best has an extra 1 trick he can use in combat.

[Big Fau]

Don't mind me. I'm just rambling. I can see that it's bad that Fighter is tier 5, but I don't see the need in making him tier 3. Just make him very good at what matters to his job (which is fighting).

You know, just giving him the Expert's skill selection and skill points bumps him up half a tier, possibly putting him into Tier 4 if he has access to Lucid Dreaming, Iaijutsu Focus, or some of the other useful skills (especially UMD).

Tier 3 is a high target, and largely impossible to make using just the Core RAW. With the exception of the spellcasting classes (that is to say, the Duskblade, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer), the only classes that are in Tier 3 are classes with their own subsystem (Martial Adepts, PsiWars/Psychic Rouges, Meldshapers, the Binder).



Then again, this is part of the reason why people keep trying. I think the closest there's been to a Tier 3 Fighter fix was the Frank&K Tomes material, and that's because they completely overhauled feats in general (and even that ended up being Tier 4 Rocket Tag).

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I'm playing PF, so it's enough for me. I consider it the failing of the system, not a problem with the Fighter.

[Big Fau]

I'm playing PF, so it's enough for me.

Please excuse me, my brain has decided to quit logic.

[Seerow]

Please excuse me, my brain has decided to quit logic.

What? Everybody knows that Pathfinder fixes everything in the game. Clearly playing the Pathfinder Fighter is good enough, why would anybody want to fix it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

You know, just giving him the Expert's skill selection and skill points bumps him up half a tier, possibly putting him into Tier 4 if he has access to Lucid Dreaming, Iaijutsu Focus, or some of the other useful skills (especially UMD).

Tier 3 is a high target, and largely impossible to make using just the Core RAW. With the exception of the spellcasting classes (that is to say, the Duskblade, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer), the only classes that are in Tier 3 are classes with their own subsystem (Martial Adepts, PsiWars/Psychic Rouges, Meldshapers, the Binder).



Then again, this is part of the reason why people keep trying. I think the closest there's been to a Tier 3 Fighter fix was the Frank&K Tomes material, and that's because they completely overhauled feats in general (and even that ended up being Tier 4 Rocket Tag).

I thought regular Rogues (not neccisarily CORE, though) were tier 3? I mean plenty of skill points and a huge list gives a lot of in combat and out of combat versatility plus class features to be still effective in combat without the proper skill investment.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

What? Everybody knows that Pathfinder fixes everything in the game. Clearly playing the Pathfinder Fighter is good enough, why would anybody want to fix it?
Where did I say to not fix it?

[Seerow]

I thought regular Rogues (not neccisarily CORE, though) were tier 3? I mean plenty of skill points and a huge list gives a lot of in combat and out of combat versatility plus class features to be still effective in combat without the proper skill investment.

Rogues were pretty heavily debated, but I think in the end they wound up tier4 based on the argument that bombs of alchemical fire and UMD abuse alone can't bring a class up a tier, or else everyone would be tier 3.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Rogues were pretty heavily debated, but I think in the end they wound up tier4 based on the argument that bombs of alchemical fire and UMD abuse alone can't bring a class up a tier, or else everyone would be tier 3.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Rogues can handle being sneaky, social situations, combat maneuvers, dealing good damage against anything not immune to SA (and with ACF you can get around that as well). Things it can't handle is SA immune enemies (barring ACFs) and enemies with magical ways of detecting people. The last part is then comparing it to tier 1 or 2 casters so apples to dogs. Please point out other situations they excel (or can be comptenent in) and situations they can't handle.

[Big Fau]

I thought regular Rogues (not neccisarily CORE, though) were tier 3? I mean plenty of skill points and a huge list gives a lot of in combat and out of combat versatility plus class features to be still effective in combat without the proper skill investment.

Kinda. In the end, they are not flexible enough. They have to specialize in one or two fields while being mediocre in the rest. The Factotum and Psychic Rogue ended up demonstrating what the class lacked.

A large part of it was immunities. Anything immune to Sneak Attack obviously doesn't care about the Rogue unless they take one of two ACFs (and both of them lower the damage output), but the standard Firebomber Rogue (Alchimist's Fire and Acid Flasks with Sneak Attack) does no good against anything resistant to those energy types (since the attack itself has to deal damage for Sneak Attack to work).

Then comes the problem of investment. The way the skill system works in 3.5, they have to narrow down what they do. I've played several Rogues before, and none of them were as flexible as the Factotums or Incarnates I've played.




That said, the Rogue, Lurk, and Ranger are the kings of Tier 4.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Rogues can handle being sneaky, social situations, combat maneuvers, dealing good damage against anything not immune to SA (and with ACF you can get around that as well). Things it can't handle is SA immune enemies (barring ACFs) and enemies with magical ways of detecting people. The last part is then comparing it to tier 1 or 2 casters so apples to dogs. Please point out other situations they excel (or can be comptenent in) and situations they can't handle.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874.msg163573#msg163573

[MesiDoomstalker]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874.msg163573#msg163573

According to that, its because its not as good as Factotum as far as skill monkey goes, MAD issues, and aforementioned SA issues. I've never played Factotum or seen them played so I'm not sure how accurate the statments are. Not saying they are lieing or wrong just can't personally confirm it.

Am I the only one who doesn't consider particuarly big foes immune to SA due to the "reach vitals" clause? I mean veins and arteries can be present in any major limb. Thats something that can be struck when your 1/10 their height. I guess thats a rules interpretation.

[Big Fau]

Am I the only one who doesn't consider particuarly big foes immune to SA due to the "reach vitals" clause? I mean veins and arteries can be present in any major limb. Thats something that can be struck when your 1/10 their height. I guess thats a rules interpretation.

As a DM, I've never personally applied that nerf.

It's just rather hard to stab an artery when you are throwing a flask of acid at it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

As a DM, I've never personally applied that nerf.

It's just rather hard to stab an artery when you are throwing a flask of acid at it.

That's what the 30 ft. limit is for. But this discussion is derailing the thread. I'll concede that Rogue is contested between 3 and 4 and leave it at that.

[Curious]

I think in the last thread about PF tiers it was actually decided that with the buffs to rogues via their new rogue talents, broader application of sneak attack, and the skill system consolidation (effectively giving them more skills), they become a lowish tier 3. Then again, there were only like four people conversing at that point, so I'm not certain what some of the other board members think about that.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97124.jpg
Creatures have vital parts everywhere. You don't have to stab it in the head or heart.

[Hiro Protagonest]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97124.jpg
Creatures have vital parts everywhere. You don't have to stab it in the head or heart.

"I kick him in the nuts!"

Best line ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm playing PF, so it's enough for me. I consider it the failing of the system, not a problem with the Fighter.

I say this as clinically as possible, without an attempt to hurt anyone's feelings: Pathfinder was written by a whole lot of people that have no clue about the realities of how 3.5 functions as a system, a game, or a roleplaying experience, and every attempt to give Paizo feedback about the failings of their system is met by them cramming their head in the sand and then banning the offending Good Samaritan from their forum. Suggesting that Pathfinder fixed something aside from the skill system is...misguided.

[Curious]

Suggesting that Pathfinder fixed something aside from the skill system is...misguided.

Eh, Favored Classes, CMB and CMD (debatable, but it definitely is simpler), dead levels (also of debatable value), the skill system, some other small things. Pathfinder definitely isn't a real fix, but I do like the small changes it made to the system that make it easier to use.

[Lord_Gareth]

Eh, Favored Classes

This I'll give you.


CMB and CMD (debatable, but it definitely is simpler)

This I won't. Not only does one scale in a fashion that vastly outstrips the other, but anyone wanting to actually use or specialize in such a maneuver has to invest two or three times the feats in Pathfinder to do so - and what they get back is often less than the previous effect, but with all of the problems still intact (size modifiers, for examples), which means they tax you even harder and then punish you just the same. They didn't fix it. They castrated it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

I say this as clinically as possible, without an attempt to hurt anyone's feelings: Pathfinder was written by a whole lot of people that have no clue about the realities of how 3.5 functions as a system, a game, or a roleplaying experience, and every attempt to give Paizo feedback about the failings of their system is met by them cramming their head in the sand and then banning the offending Good Samaritan from their forum. Suggesting that Pathfinder fixed something aside from the skill system is...misguided.
That's not what I said. And I mentioned PF specifically because of the skill system.

[Lord_Gareth]

And I mentioned PF specifically because of the skill system.

Ah, but you see, they fixed the basic system for the skills but never actually bothered fixing anyone's skill points or skill selection.

So Fighters are still janked on skills in addition to being bad at hitting things with sharp metal and incompetent at everything else.

[Lans]

Tier 4 fix-Gestalt with Expert
Tier 3 as above with quadratic feat gain, with the base 11 being floating feats that can be assigned at the beginning of each day. This essentially allows them to have all the low level ToB stances, and WRT, IHS and one of the shadow jumps. This make up the bulk of the 4-3 jump

[Big Fau]

Ah, but you see, they fixed the basic system for the skills but never actually bothered fixing anyone's skill points or skill selection.

So Fighters are still janked on skills in addition to being bad at hitting things with sharp metal and incompetent at everything else.

This is true. Removing the cap on CC skills still leaves the problem of investing skill points while having MAD issues.

Never mind that they made a lot of feats worse.

[Curious]

This I won't. Not only does one scale in a fashion that vastly outstrips the other, but anyone wanting to actually use or specialize in such a maneuver has to invest two or three times the feats in Pathfinder to do so - and what they get back is often less than the previous effect, but with all of the problems still intact (size modifiers, for examples), which means they tax you even harder and then punish you just the same. They didn't fix it. They castrated it.

Alright then. I've never really examined the math behind most combat maneuvers, as I've never had much interest in them, so the only thing I ever really noted was that it was much easier to remember how to use them all. As I said, PF isn't much of a fix, but most of what it actually does isn't bad, so I use it as a basis for my games.

[Seerow]

This is true. Removing the cap on CC skills still leaves the problem of investing skill points while having MAD issues.

Never mind that they made a lot of feats worse.

To be fair they also removed double cost for cross class skills I believe, which helps at least as much as just raising the skill cap.

But yeah, the MAD and 2 base skill points hurts. If Fighters had a reason to want intelligence even as a tertiary attribute, it wouldn't be so bad. Or with 4 skillpoints per level. But as is, in Pathfinder they're nearly as bad off as in 3.5.

[stainboy]

- The party is attending a noble's ball and the fighter has to talk and interact with the attending lords and ladies without embarrassing the party.

- The fighter is purchasing an enchanted weapon in a strange city and must be sure the merchant selling it isn't cheating him.

- Invisible stalkers attack the party. At other levels, sub in 'shadows' or 'dread wraiths', to taste.

No, you haven't solved the versatility problem. All you did was give him more ways to hit things with sharp metal. The fighter already does that just fine.

You're right, that does need clarification. I didn't get my point across well because I was trying too hard not to look like I was arguing with Doug's solution when I actually like it.

Minimum acceptable versatility in a contrived melee combat. It gets the fighter up to the level that we could stop talking about "how to fix fighters" and talk about "how can we fix martial classes in general" (which includes fighter, and classes the are better than fighter like rogue and warblade).



No more so then allowing a wizard to use a break WBL trick too have the cash to have learned every spell ever.

A cleric knows every cleric spell ever, but those spells aren't prepared unless the player consciously chooses to prepare them. A prepared caster never prepares a spell that the player doesn't know exists. (And the cleric thing is probably too complicated already.)

This fighter would have every feat ever whether the player knows about it or not. This includes passive bonuses. You would have to hunt through a dozen books just to know how to roll initiative. That's too much.

I challenge anyone who disagrees with me on this to post a sheet for a fighter with every fighter bonus feat ever published for 3.5. Partially because it would be interesting to see, partially just to demonstrate that it's a crapton of work.

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, that still leaves the general issues of what fighters do against incorporeal undead, invisible opponents, and incorporeal spellcasters (ghostform!). Incorporeal anything, really, tends to be a problem for melee...

Oh. Hey. That falls under 'general melee problems', doesn't it? My bad, carry on.

[Big Fau]

Well, that still leaves the general issues of what fighters do against incorporeal undead, invisible opponents, and incorporeal spellcasters (ghostform!). Incorporeal anything, really, tends to be a problem for melee...

Oh. Hey. That falls under 'general melee problems', doesn't it? My bad, carry on.

At least in the Warblade's/Crusader's case, they provide assistance to the characters who can actually do something in those situations (WRT is very helpful).


But then again, at the lower levels everyone has trouble with Incorporeal creatures, especially if they aren't Undead (I think there's two creatures that fit that criteria though).

[Fouredged Sword]

In my mind, White raven tactics is a non-tier effecting ability. Yes, it can be like giving yourself an extra wizard for a round, but that is because of the wizard standing near you, not anything to do with your own power level.

[Hiro Protagonest]

To be fair they also removed double cost for cross class skills I believe, which helps at least as much as just raising the skill cap.

But yeah, the MAD and 2 base skill points hurts. If Fighters had a reason to want intelligence even as a tertiary attribute, it wouldn't be so bad. Or with 4 skillpoints per level. But as is, in Pathfinder they're nearly as bad off as in 3.5.

Tactician archetype from UC has 4+int skill points with more class skills, a slightly bigger bonus feat list (some of the teamwork ones are pretty good, like Butterfly's Sting while wielding two kukris and your ally uses a scythe), a class feature that's okay that replaces weapon training 1, an ability to replace armor training 3 that's good if your party is making attack rolls, then another ability that helps the fighter use the action economy a bit better, and it doesn't replace any other class feature.

It might be low tier 4, since fighters are already high tier 5.

[stainboy]

In my mind, White raven tactics is a non-tier effecting ability. Yes, it can be like giving yourself an extra wizard for a round, but that is because of the wizard standing near you, not anything to do with your own power level.

I don't give it much consideration because it's a warblade's That One Ability. It's crazy good, but it's obvious ban-bait and it's hard to get two people to even agree on what it does.

[Flickerdart]

This fighter would have every feat ever whether the player knows about it or not. This includes passive bonuses. You would have to hunt through a dozen books just to know how to roll initiative. That's too much.
You would have a +2 bonus to initiative if you chanted for three rounds beforehand, and another +2 in shadowy illumination. This took me ten seconds to look up.

[stainboy]

Let's see a full character sheet, not one derived stat you can do from memory.

You were one of the people insisting that I was not aware that the DM could play Santa Claus and give the paladin a mount other than a horse. I see a pattern here.

[Flickerdart]

Let's see a full character sheet, not one derived stat you can do from memory.

You were one of the people insisting that I was not aware that the DM could play Santa Claus and give the paladin a mount other than a horse. I see a pattern here.
From memory? Even I'm not that good, I had to go and look up all the Fighter bonus feats that add to initiative. Turns out there's just the two.

Give me a profiler with 209 feat slots, and I'll be glad to.

Also I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at with the Santa Claus jape. Care to enlighten me?

[stainboy]

So out of 209 feats, you have applied three and you already have two small conditional bonuses. I maintain that this character would be unmanageably complex.

(E: Three includes Improved Initiative. I guess you were doing non-Core only.)

[Flickerdart]

So out of 209 feats, you have applied three and you already have two small conditional bonuses. I maintain that this character would be unmanageably complex.

(E: Three includes Improved Initiative. I guess you were doing non-Core only.)
You'd only ever need to look up things that pertain to your given situation (which is usually based on your weapon of choice). With the amazing power of google on your side, it's not so very hard, especially since you will not have ALL the feats until you've met all their requirements, and will never CARE about the majority of them because they are really dumb, like Breath Control.
This character would require no more prep work and no more game time work than a Cleric or Druid.

[stainboy]

How about this: what is the advantage to giving the fighter 209 feats rather than merging all the situational bonuses into a few non-situational bonuses? "The fighter gains +6 to initiative checks" is simpler than "The fighter gains Improved Initiative, Chanty Thing, and Shadowy Thing."

Also, what is the advantage to having the list of printed feats more-or-less randomly assign the fighter bonuses rather than consciously choosing the areas where the fighter is deficient? Why are we giving the fighter random crap like High Sword, Low Axe instead of talking about SoL protection or not being dead weight outside of combat?

[Flickerdart]

It's been stated several times that giving the Fighter all the feats doesn't do very much. Still would be playable though, which is what I'm getting at.

[Hague]

No one even managed to make a single comment on any of the class features I suggested? Man, that's an ego blow right there. I spent a lot of time writing those. :smallfrown:

[Seerow]

No one even managed to make a single comment on any of the class features I suggested? Man, that's an ego blow right there. I spent a lot of time writing those. :smallfrown:

None of mine got commented on either, 5 pages later. **** happens.

[thompur]

Some fighter class features I've been toying with:
*Fighter's Awareness-Starting at 5th level, deduct 10% from miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, and incorporeality. Plus an additional 10% every 5 levels. Minimum 5% miss chance.
*7th level-Full attack as a standard action
*11th level-penalty to extra attacks lessened by 5
*16th level-penalty to extra attacks lessened by 10
*20th level-penalty to extra attacks eliminated
*Overcome-sacrifice 1 attack action to nauseate opponent for 1 rd on successful hit
*Overcome-sacrifice 2 attack actions to stun opponent for 1 rd on successful hit

*Overcome-sacrifice 2 attack actions to ignore opponents DR on successful hit

(would these make 2WF simply more attractive or a no brainer?)
Any non-magical suggestions as to overcoming flying opponents?

[Eric Tolle]

My simple but effective solution:
Cleric Fighter
Domains Areas of Expertise: War, Strength
Spells Fighter Stunts

There. Now the Fighter is 10,000% more useful.

[VarianArdell]

*11th level-penalty to extra attacks lessened by 5
*16th level-penalty to extra attacks lessened by 10
*20th level-penalty to extra attacks eliminated


um, you do realize that the penalty on iterative attacks is, at most, a (cumulative) -5, right?

[Seerow]

um, you do realize that the penalty on iterative attacks is, at most, a (cumulative) -5, right?

I think he meant like eliminate the itterative attack penalty for one attack each time.


So at level 11, rather than 11/6/1, you have 11/11/6. At 16, instead of 16/11/6/1 you have 16/16/16/11. At 20 you get 20/20/20/20.

[VarianArdell]

I think he meant like eliminate the itterative attack penalty for one attack each time.


So at level 11, rather than 11/6/1, you have 11/11/6. At 16, instead of 16/11/6/1 you have 16/16/16/11. At 20 you get 20/20/20/20.

that would make sense...

[Flickerdart]

Being able to make more, rather than better, full attacks should be the priority.

[Lans]

It's a diplomatic mission. What do these guys do?

Ranger: I have knowledge skills.
Urban Ranger: I have Sense Motive.
Barbarian: I put ranks in intimidate and listen.
Fighter: ...I spent all my skill points in climb, jump, and swim. I'll be standing outside.

Ahem

The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Though I totally agree its not enough, which is why I think they at least need skills related to fighting added to their list, like spot, listen, knowleges, tumble, balance, heal and I'm sure theirs more.