AC average by level?

[Vallum]

I remember a while back someone posted a chart of average to hit and and by level, but can't seem to find it. I need to show a DM that monks have way too low AC and how light armor for them would be nice, and hence allow the homebrew I'm working on for his game.

because honestly, light armor + int + extra AC (up to +5 @ 20th) is needed for a light armor character who's going to be a fighter replacement, (swashbuckler remake for pathfinder).

Help would be appreciated :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC the rule of thumb was level +13 or something along the lines of that.

[DogbertLinc]

Level+13 seems a bit too low for AC, 33 at lv20 sounds just outright pointless, honestly.


And I initially thought that formula was for to hit, which makes no sense for low levels and too low for the high ones.

[BIGMamaSloth]

you're going to get a lot of "AC isn't important" on this board, and while that's true, I could see this being entirely reasonable.

[gbprime]

If you figure a light armor fighter has a 16 AC to start (3 armor, 3 dex) then a monk with decent stats is right about there. But it's when they go up levels and get equipment (or use a shield) that they start to outpace a monk.

To keep up at higher levels, a monk needs dex and wis items, bracers of armor, and they need to enchant their clothing. (base AC 0, add enhancement bonuses, stacks with bracers of armor if your DM agrees) and finding multiple stackable bonuses is key. dodge, insight, shield, natural, sacred...

But yes, you will never get optimum AC out of a monk. because they can't use armor or shield, they're 3 to 10 points behind right there and using dex and wis to make up the difference is expensive. At higher levels, saying "screw it" and just investing in a Cloak of Displacement is easier.

[BIGMamaSloth]

I think some research and graph making would be in order, because that rule of thumb makes no sense for the low levels and might be low for the high ones.

ECL+13 isn't reasonable to you? it may not make sense at really high levels, but for about 1-10 maybe 12 that's a reasonable average. level 1 with 14 ac average isn't reasonable? level 10 with 23 average ?

sorry about that, read your edited post.

[pffh]

I've always used "If a dragon of CR equal to your level has a 50% or greater chance to miss you because of your armor then it's good enough to be useful" for heavy armor so maybe something slightly less then that for light/medium armor types?

[Vladislav]

I remember a rule of thumb that a good AC is 15 + Level x 1.5

(eg. 21 at level 4, 30 at level 10, 45 at level 20)

[CTrees]

I don't know about PCs, but I know I saw a chart of average AC for monsters by CR here not that long ago.

EDIT: Didn't look hard (I'm at work), so I didn't find the (very nice, in-depth) chart I saw here, but I did find this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html), which is Paizo's recommendation on average monster statistics by level. They do address that things should change for all the different monsters, but it's an interesting reference point (at least for Pathfinder). Not sure how accurate it is, as to what's actually in the Bestiaries.

[RelentlessImp]

I've always found a good rule of thumb is Character Level + 23 for "average" AC, "average" meaning they have around a 50% chance to hit you based solely on your full AC.

It's way too expensive to invest in that much AC, though.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Wait, are we talking about average AC as the average you'd need to have a decent chance of avoiding attacks due to AC at a given level, or the average AC attainable at a given level?

[ericgrau]

PCs are somewhere around 18 + level x 1.25 give or take. THF starts a little slower, maybe scaling by level x 1, but later they catch up with an animated shield. If I was at home I could link to a table (of reasonable AC, not max AC). At level 20 you have 10 + 11 (mithril full plate) + 2 (shield) + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 (4 sources of magic) + 2 (haste + ioun stone) = 45 AC.

The thing with monks is it's all touch AC, and then in melee you stun, grapple and/or trip. If you don't, then ya monk AC sucks. By level 20 a practical number is 10 + 4 (mage armor) + 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 (4 sources of magic including 2 ability scores) + 2 + 2 (typ. base dex & wis w/o finesse build) + 3 (haste + ioun stone + monk's belt) = 37 AC. Technically at level 20 you'll get bracers of armor +8 for 41 AC but 99% of the time before that point potions of mage armor or a friendly caster are a better deal. Whereas the above 45 AC actually happens by level 17-18ish. A finesse monk has another 6 dex for 40 AC, which is passable I guess. More with tomes and bracers but again even high level campaigns tend to end before these are relevant. Even that 37 is from the more expensive sources and thus weighted towards higher levels. As you'll see below he's eating nearly twice as many primary attacks (2/3 instead of 1/3 hit), though secondaries aren't so bad.

AC is dirt cheap and thus worth it, way cheaper than miss chance until very high levels, 15+. Even then I'd get both. CR 20 monster attack bonus is around 30; even at level 20 if you're fighting a group of foes they're probably around CR 18 each. Secondary attacks are even lower. Those who say otherwise are simply bad at optimizing AC or have a DM that's bad at handing out boring treasure items like AC.

[nedz]

Surely it should be the same as Average To Hit +10 ?
Or have I misunderstood the question ?

[Telonius]

A Best Case / Worst Case comparison might be helpful here. Just eyeballing this, based on WBL, (mostly) stuff in the SRD, and 25 point buy.

Monk (Best Case):
STR 11, DEX 14, CON 14
INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 8
AC = 10+2(Dex)+2(Wis) = 14

By level 5, he'll probably have Bracers +1, +1 bonus from Monk and another point in Wisdom
Monk5 AC = 17

By level 10, he'll have bracers of DEX and a periapt of WIS for another +2 to AC, upgraded his Bracers to +2, and an additional +1 from Monk levels.
Monk10 AC = 21

By level 15, he'll have a Monk's Belt (+2 Monk bonus altogether), an additional +1 from stat increases to WIS, items of +4 WIS and DEX, and +3 Bracers, and maybe a Ring of Protection +1
Monk15 AC = 28

At level 20, he'll have items of +6 WIS and DEX, +5 bonus AC from Monk, Bracers +6 or 7, maybe a Ring of Protection +3. He's sold his Monk's Belt since it's taking up valuable space.
AC = 10 + 5 (DEX) + 8 (WIS) + 5 (Monk) + 7 (Bracers) + 3 (Ring) = 38

For a Fighter, assume standard Greatsword wielder, putting his emphasis on his weaponry with defense as the secondary concern. (Worst Case).
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 14
INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8

Level 1, he'll probably have scale mail or a chain shirt.
AC: 10 + 1(Dex) + 4 (Armor) = 15

By level 5, he'll have +1 Fullplate
AC: 10 + 1(Dex) + 8 (armor) + 1 (magic) = 20

By level 10, +1Mithral Fullplate and Gloves of Dex +2
AC: 10 + 2(Dex) + 8(armor) + 1 (magic) = 21

By level 15, +3 Mithral Fullplate, Gloves of Dex +2 and a +1 in Dex from abilities, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2
AC: 10 + 3(Dex) + 8(armor) + 2 (magic) + 2 (deflection) + 2 (natural) = 27

By level 20, +4 Mithral Fullplate, Gloves of Dex+2, Dex bonus of +3 altogether, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, +2 Animated Large Steel Shield
AC: 10 + 3(Dex) + 8 (armor) +4 (magic) + 2 (Deflection) +2 (natural) + 2 (steel shield) + 2 (shield magic) = 33

I think that's a fairly reasonable item selection for both cases.

So, comparison...
{table]Level |Monk| Fighter
1| 14|15
5| 17|20
10|21|21
15|28|27
20|38|33[/table]

So, at low levels, by spending most of his wealth on defense (again, just eyeballing the totals, but it looks pretty reasonable to me), he can only keep just barely below the Fighter's AC, when the Fighter isn't even really trying. It isn't until Level 15 that the Monk starts pulling away. And during all that time, he's not getting much of an improvement in offensive capability. Unless he has access to something like Intuitive Strike, his to-hit is going to be abysmal. Maybe somebody could do a 1/5/10/15/20 for a typical (read: not optimized, and may you be eaten by a Grue if you mention partially-charged wands) combat based Monk would have for AC. (Got to go pretend I'm doing some work now...)

[ericgrau]

For the above a party member with mage armor or potions of mage armor help a lot. Level 1 potions are cheap to spam. Though ya you didn't really try with the fighter and monks are still behind.

[Vallum]

Wait, are we talking about average AC as the average you'd need to have a decent chance of avoiding attacks due to AC at a given level, or the average AC attainable at a given level?

The former, though i don't mind seeing the latter for another project I'm working on.

[Provengreil]

PCs are somewhere around 18 + level x 1.25 give or take. THF starts a little slower, maybe scaling by level x 1, but later they catch up with an animated shield. If I was at home I could link to a table (of reasonable AC, not max AC). At level 20 you have 10 + 11 (mithril full plate) + 2 (shield) + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 (4 sources of magic) + 2 (haste + ioun stone) = 45 AC.

The thing with monks is it's all touch AC, and then in melee you stun, grapple and/or trip. If you don't, then ya monk AC sucks. By level 20 a practical number is 10 + 4 (mage armor) + 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 (4 sources of magic including 2 ability scores) + 2 + 2 (typ. base dex & wis w/o finesse build) + 3 (haste + ioun stone + monk's belt) = 37 AC. Technically at level 20 you'll get bracers of armor +8 for 41 AC but 99% of the time before that point potions of mage armor or a friendly caster are a better deal. Whereas the above 45 AC actually happens by level 17-18ish. A finesse monk has another 6 dex for 40 AC, which is passable I guess. More with tomes and bracers but again even high level campaigns tend to end before these are relevant. Even that 37 is from the more expensive sources and thus weighted towards higher levels. As you'll see below he's eating nearly twice as many primary attacks (2/3 instead of 1/3 hit), though secondaries aren't so bad.

AC is dirt cheap and thus worth it, way cheaper than miss chance until very high levels, 15+. Even then I'd get both. CR 20 monster attack bonus is around 30; even at level 20 if you're fighting a group of foes they're probably around CR 18 each. Secondary attacks are even lower. Those who say otherwise are simply bad at optimizing AC or have a DM that's bad at handing out boring treasure items like AC.

i think the issue is more often that the attacks you worry about don't bother with full AC (touch attacks, targeted spells, and so on). I did a quick calculation on another thread somewhere and got a fighter with no friendly casters(ie, permanent items and feats only, which is more expensive) up to like 45 at level 15, 50 if you fight defensively, even more if you're a race with natural AC, and i'm sure i missed a couple good ways to pump it higher. You just have to be fine with virtually no damage and very little combat ability besides being an iron pillar. But getting there was not really that hard.

[nedz]

Rings of Prot are quite cheap, as are Amulets of Natural Armour. Mage Armour from the party mage is very cheap and this helps the Monk but not the fighter. Owl's Wisdom is also an obvious buff. I'd expect the Monk's AC to be 9 or 10 higher than quoted at 15th level.

[tyckspoon]

Rings of Prot are quite cheap, as are Amulets of Natural Armour. Mage Armour from the party mage is very cheap and this helps the Monk but not the fighter. Owl's Wisdom is also an obvious buff. I'd expect the Monk's AC to be 9 or 10 higher than quoted at 15th level.

Natural Armor conflicts with the Wisdom amulet, and Owl's Wisdom doesn't stack with +Wis item. Mage Armor doesn't stack with the Bracers either, although if you can get a reliable source of it it's certainly a much cheaper way to get an Armor bonus until you can reasonably afford higher-value bracers. That said, even without using Magic Item Compendium's less expensive rules for stacking basic bonuses having Natural Armor +2 or 3 added to your Wis neckpiece is quite affordable in the 15-20 range, and going the full +5 isn't terrible if you really want the AC at level 20. Also a Monk's Belt may be worthwhile for the faster Unarmed Damage if you're really hurting for DPR, but it's a terrible value for the AC improvement- that 13k gold would cover a Ring +2 with money to spare.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Natural Armor conflicts with the Wisdom amulet, and Owl's Wisdom doesn't stack with +Wis item. Mage Armor doesn't stack with the Bracers either, although if you can get a reliable source of it it's certainly a much cheaper way to get an Armor bonus until you can reasonably afford higher-value bracers. That said, even without using Magic Item Compendium's less expensive rules for stacking basic bonuses having Natural Armor +2 or 3 added to your Wis neckpiece is quite affordable in the 15-20 range, and going the full +5 isn't terrible if you really want the AC at level 20. Also a Monk's Belt may be worthwhile for the faster Unarmed Damage if you're really hurting for DPR, but it's a terrible value for the AC improvement- that 13k gold would cover a Ring +2 with money to spare.

In MiC, you can apply "must-have" bonuses to items without the stacking modifier. Natural armor and Wis bonus are included and have preferred body slots so you can put them on different items without increasing the price.

[DeAnno]

At the end of the day, more than anything else in 3.5e AC is a function of your Wealth. You need your enhancement bonuses on your armor, your deflection bonus from your ring, your dex enhancement bonus from your dex item, your luck bonus from some skeezy thing, your enhancement bonus on your shield (if you're a spellcaster), etc, etc, ad infinitum. You might want to Alter Self/Polymorph/PAO yourself too to get ridiculous +NA, and then you can make it touch with Scintillating Scales. Almost all of this stuff is straight buyable, or comes out of wands, or both.

Being a caster or having access to friendly buffing casters definitely helps your AC a whole ton (one of my old parties was handing out Magic Vestment like candy all around on Ghost Touch enchanted gear), but at the end of the day for most characters AC is something that is bought, which means your AC is closely linked to wealth and liberal gear rulings, which is pretty much the most volatile quantity across campaigns. This leads to AC being wackily volatile, and though it does matter, it's almost too campaign dependent to follow a standard progression.

[candycorn]

I'll say this, though. If you're running at level 10, and your AC is less than 20? You have problems.

[Acanous]

At the end of the day, more than anything else in 3.5e AC is a function of your Wealth. You need your enhancement bonuses on your armor, your deflection bonus from your ring, your dex enhancement bonus from your dex item, your luck bonus from some skeezy thing, your enhancement bonus on your shield (if you're a spellcaster), etc, etc, ad infinitum. You might want to Alter Self/Polymorph/PAO yourself too to get ridiculous +NA, and then you can make it touch with Scintillating Scales. Almost all of this stuff is straight buyable, or comes out of wands, or both.

Being a caster or having access to friendly buffing casters definitely helps your AC a whole ton (one of my old parties was handing out Magic Vestment like candy all around on Ghost Touch enchanted gear), but at the end of the day for most characters AC is something that is bought, which means your AC is closely linked to wealth and liberal gear rulings, which is pretty much the most volatile quantity across campaigns. This leads to AC being wackily volatile, and though it does matter, it's almost too campaign dependent to follow a standard progression.

While this is true, we're going by Wealth By Level in the DMG and trying to factor an average AC.

[El Dorado]

Pure AC? 20 + level. I know that works pretty well for Pathfinder. You can run a few points below that if you employ concealment/miss chance of some sort.

[Adamantrue]

I dunno what you will think of the source, but THIS (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/CR_Estimation_Table_%28DnD_Guideline%29) sounds like what you were looking for, and at a cursory glance looks to be in the right ballpark.

[Starbuck_II]

Pure AC? 20 + level. I know that works pretty well for Pathfinder. You can run a few points below that if you employ concealment/miss chance of some sort.

Well, it won't be tank AC, but 20 + Level (lv 10 neans 30) is about Decent for my scale AC 15 + 1.5 lv (lv 10 means 30).

I range it with Poor (5 + 1.5 lv), Average (10 + 1.5 lv), Decent (15+1.5 lv), Tank (20 + 1.5 lv).

Tank: 10% chance chance to hit you
Decent: about 25% chance to hit you
Average: 50% chance be hit
Poor: 75% chance to be hit

So at lv 1: you need about 21 AC for Tank, AC 16 for decent, AC 11 for Average, and 6 for poor (hopefully no one has poor).
Lv 6: you need about 29 AC for Tank, AC 24 for decent, AC 19 for Average, and 14 for poor (actually possible to have poor AC and not know it).
Lv 10: you need about 35 AC for Tank, AC 30 for decent, AC 25 for Average, and 20 for poor (understandable to have poor AC).

[DeAnno]

Tank: 10% chance chance to hit you
Decent: about 25% chance to hit you
Average: 50% chance be hit
Poor: 75% chance to be hit


This is rather misleading, because unlike 4e, attack values are not very standardized either (and diverge rather quickly). At level 1 tank AC may be only 5 more than decent AC, but at level 20 Tank AC is probably 15 or so more than decent AC (so you can still tank highly accurate builds/monsters). The problem is also exacerbated by Touch AC becoming more and more relatively important compared to AC as the game progresses.

At level 20 40 AC will inconvenience or shut down many things, but not all of them. To truly be tanking normal AC, 55 AC or so will shut down tons of things (though some stuff like Frenzied Berserker Chargers can still hit that if they're lucky).

[Starbuck_II]

This is rather misleading, because unlike 4e, attack values are not very standardized either (and diverge rather quickly). At level 1 tank AC may be only 5 more than decent AC, but at level 20 Tank AC is probably 15 or so more than decent AC (so you can still tank highly accurate builds/monsters). The problem is also exacerbated by Touch AC becoming more and more relatively important compared to AC as the game progresses.

At level 20 40 AC will inconvenience or shut down many things, but not all of them. To truly be tanking normal AC, 55 AC or so will shut down tons of things (though some stuff like Frenzied Berserker Chargers can still hit that if they're lucky).

True but it is a good standard, high level gets funky so it is impossible to have the best measurements.
This is for the average encounter: super Optimized DMs/Players mess with these values.

[DeAnno]

It isn't really super optimization though, just the system itself. A Human Barbarian 6/FB 10/Barbarian 4 with starting strength 18 (final strength 18 + 5(inherent) + 6(enhancement) + 5(levels) + 10(frenzy) + 4(rage) = 48) and a +5 weapon has, when charging, an attack bonus of 2(charge) + 5(enhancement) + 20(BaB) + 19(strength) = +46. If a tank at that level is supposed to get by with 50 AC, he's going to get utterly obliterated to the tune of hundreds of damage by that full attack after a charge.

Even a CR 20 Eldritch Giant Confessor, straight out of the MM3, has a full attack of +55/+50/+45/+40 after it casts it's prepared Divine Power spell, and will likely hit a 50 AC tank with at least 3 of those (about 100 damage or so). An "average encounter" is not a very useful statistic alone in 3.5e, since the spread of attack modes and their accuracies and potencies simply becomes too extreme.

[ericgrau]

^ Eh but MM1 has little that even comes close to that. That may just be MM3. Tarrasque is a rare MM1 example but he needs the excess attack bonus to power attack or he only does 35 damage on single attacks and 83 on full attacks. Pitiful against level 20 HP, especially if the PC has additional defenses. 45 AC at least limits him to at most +12 PA damage (47) on single attacks and +42 (125) on full attacks. Any more and the misses outweigh the benefits. Or more likely the unsuspecting int 3 creature over-PAs at first and he misses a lot due to the AC. Assuming you even melee such unusual foes in the first place instead of pulling some trick.

I should emphasize that my numbers above were attempting to stay reasonable, maintain a good offense as well, keep your saves high as well, etc., which ends up at 45 AC when monsters are at around +30 to attack. So avoiding 75% of attacks is reasonable at most levels, though only 50% from BBEGs, or if THFing before animated shields are available. Not to say you couldn't do better with the right tricks, but I mean 45 without sacrificing offense isn't too hard.

[Starbuck_II]

It isn't really super optimization though, just the system itself. A Human Barbarian 6/FB 10/Barbarian 4 with starting strength 18 (final strength 18 + 5(inherent) + 6(enhancement) + 5(levels) + 10(frenzy) + 4(rage) = 48) and a +5 weapon has, when charging, an attack bonus of 2(charge) + 5(enhancement) + 20(BaB) + 19(strength) = +46. If a tank at that level is supposed to get by with 50 AC, he's going to get utterly obliterated to the tune of hundreds of damage by that full attack after a charge.

But you need to add in miss chance by 20th (come on, who can't afford that by 20?) and that lowers those 5 attacks to 1 attacks.
So he deals 1, you deal 5 on him (charge lowers AC not to mention if he lowers AC with Shocktooper). He dies, you win.
That Barb is rarely ever using +46, can't charge all the time, so he has 44 - PA (assumingly 5 minimum since you said he deals hundreds of damage) means 39. So he usually needs to roll a 11/16/21/26/31.
Even when Charging: usually needs to roll 9/14/19/24/29. So two have a chance, but miss chance means 1 hits.

Plus few Barbarian has a +46 hit because they power attack (they want to kill enemy). If they Shocktroop, then they have crap AC and they get hit and die next rd.
Plus, 18 Str isn't easy in 3.5 with PB costs unless DM gives 32 or higher (standard is supposed to be 25 if you read the PHB). With 25 PB, you have to dump a lot of other stats like Con or Dex.

Then again FB's are usually outlawed because they kill allies.


Even a CR 20 Eldritch Giant Confessor, straight out of the MM3, has a full attack of +55/+50/+45/+40 after it casts it's prepared Divine Power spell, and will likely hit a 50 AC tank with at least 3 of those (about 100 damage or so). An "average encounter" is not a very useful statistic alone in 3.5e, since the spread of attack modes and their accuracies and potencies simply becomes too extreme.

MM 3 isn't most balanced. Better than MM 2, but MM 1 is assumed average game was balance for.

Even than: Assuming he gets turn to cast.
He needs to roll a 5/10/15/20. So 3 have chance to hit miss chance lowers that to 1.5 of them hit. What is the damage of Eldritch Giant Confessor per hit?

[nedz]

The real problem with this question is that if enough of the party optimise their ACs, then the DM will only use encounters for which this is irrelevant. So its always relative to the campaign. There is no general answer.

[Coidzor]

it's almost too campaign dependent to follow a standard progression.

That would be why one assumes the WBL that was printed up in the official WOTC product so there's anything to talk about, yes.

[nedz]

That would be why one assumes the WBL that was printed up in the official WOTC product so there's anything to talk about, yes.

But do you spend 90% of your WBL on AC or just 10% ?

[ericgrau]

I wrote a computer program to optimize against average monster stats while including damage, AC, HP and assumptions about the frequency and consequences of failed saves as well. Generally AC comes out to around 25-30% WBL for melee, but it varies. For example it says boots of speed should be bought as soon as practical; screw the budget on everything else including AC. The program shows an interesting jump in AC right after the boots to catch up.

[candycorn]

But you need to add in miss chance by 20th (come on, who can't afford that by 20?) and that lowers those 5 attacks to 1 attacks.
So he deals 1, you deal 5 on him (charge lowers AC not to mention if he lowers AC with Shocktooper). He dies, you win.
That Barb is rarely ever using +46, can't charge all the time, so he has 44 - PA (assumingly 5 minimum since you said he deals hundreds of damage) means 39. So he usually needs to roll a 11/16/21/26/31.
Even when Charging: usually needs to roll 9/14/19/24/29. So two have a chance, but miss chance means 1 hits.

Plus few Barbarian has a +46 hit because they power attack (they want to kill enemy). If they Shocktroop, then they have crap AC and they get hit and die next rd.

Just to point out: Shocktrooper + Stand Still / Large and in Charge / Etc.

Such a character can reliably hit big, and then can stop others from approaching. Also, a d12 HD will have decent HP at high level. Add on a ring of blink, and even with low AC, there are miss chances.

[DeAnno]

...Miss chance...

Miss chance is miss chance, not AC. If you're running around with 75% miss chance or more and your foes can't break it, that's you being protected by an entirely different defense that really doesn't have anything to do with AC. This incidentally is another reason why AC can't be standardized well: it isn't even the only method of tanking standard hits.

Also, just to comment, if that charging Frenzied Berserker was reasonably optimized just hitting you once on that charge may have been enough to kill you outright. Leap attack + Improved Power attack is x6 PA damage so 20x6=120, strength alone is 19x1.5=28, so you're probably taking 170 or so even before Valorous or Battle Jump or Greater Mighty Wallop or any hijinx like that.

That being said, most miss chance shenanigans (blur, mirror image, part of blink) fall apart when faced with True Seeing (which incidentally, the DM could have the giant prepare), so it isn't exactly the most reliable mode of defending yourself.

[Paul H]

Hi

Not sure if you're including Pathfinder, but...

A Synthesist 1/Monk 1 can have AC 20 base, 24 w/Mage Armour
(Synthesist grants: Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13, +4 Nat Armour, Darkvision)

Only found this combo because I'm looking at a Zen Archer build for the PFS campaign.

Thanks
Paul H
PS Zen Archer APG Pg 115. Synthesist Ult Magic Pg 80.