[PF] Dervish Dancer Bard Archtype - Ability Tax?

[The Glyphstone]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer

Is it just me, or is the base Battle Dance of the Dervish Dancer Bard strictly worse than basic Bardic Song? You can initiate it as a move action immediately rather than waiting till 7th level, but it can't be used to buff allies anymore, and follows all the other restrictions of Bardic Song (including duration, presumably, making its force-multiplier power drastically less). I know Bards got the nerfbat in PF, but is there some hidden benefit to this, or does it exist purely as an 'ability tax' to compensate for later powers like [Ex] Haste?

[Curious]

Eh, it depends on your perspective. It's still a pretty good buff, but most archetypes do tend to draw strength from existing class features to allow for more powerful ones to be introduced later, such as essentially gaining full BAB from Ex haste. Unfortunately, the most powerful Dervish features (move and full attack, capstone) come in at levels 12 and 20, respectively. I still think it's a pretty good variant though, especially if 3.5 sources are allowed.

EDIT: Also, how did Bards get the nerfbat? I'm not exactly an expert at 3.5 Bards, and I'm not seeing any big changes in power.

[subject42]

EDIT: Also, how did Bards get the nerfbat? I'm not exactly an expert at 3.5 Bards, and I'm not seeing any big changes in power.

Mostly due to the improved trip and power attack changes. (I kid)

I think the main argument is that in 3.5 bards could theoretically maintain a performance indefinitely, granting many more total rounds of performance than you can gain in Pathfinder.

Of course, this hinges on the thought that the player running the bard didn't actually want to do anything with his time other than maintain the performance.

Pathfinder bards don't have as many theoretical rounds of performance, but they can perform other actions while maintaining it.

[The Glyphstone]

3.5 Bards could also conduct other actions with most of their performances, though. It was a standard to start/free to maintain for both versions. Only Fascinate and Inspire Competence required concentration.

[subject42]

3.5 Bards could also conduct other actions with most of their performances, though. It was a standard to start/free to maintain for both versions.

There was this big caveat in 3.5, though. Maybe I should have mentioned it more explicitly since we're talking numbers comparisons.


Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

I don't have my books with me, but I don't think the PF bard faces those restrictions.

[The Glyphstone]

Interestingly, it doesn't. The Lyrical Magic feat let you get around the spellcasting thing though.


I know one actual nerf that was applied was the inability to have multiple songs active at the same time. With the Lingering Music feat, a Bard could throw up an Inspire Courage, and it'd last for a full minute while he followed up with Inspire Greatness and/or Inspire Heroics. The bardic version of 'going nova'.




Rather than derail the topic on Bards in general, though, is Battle Dance really worth it in a pure-PF game where Bards have none of the melee support they benefited from in 3.5?

[Curious]

Rather than derail the topic on Bards in general, though, is Battle Dance really worth it in a pure-PF game where Bards have none of the melee support they benefited from in 3.5?

Mm. Perhaps. Lets look at what you gain.

-Bonuses to Perform (Dance).
-Ability to swap Perform (Dance) checks for Acrobatics checks.
-Movement bonuses while Battle Dancing.
-Effectively full BAB from Ex haste.
-Move and full attack at 12th level.
-Awesome capstone.

Lose:

-Ability to easily buff others with songs
-Lots of minor song abilities.
-Bardic knowledge.
-Mediocre captsone.


I think it's definitely worth it, despite only getting move and full attack at 12th.

[subject42]

Rather than derail the topic on Bards in general, though, is Battle Dance really worth it in a pure-PF game where Bards have none of the melee support they benefited from in 3.5?

If you built a heavily dex focused bard you could probably due something interesting. The Piranha strike feat allows power-attack style bonus damage for light weapons. Combine that with Dervish Dance feat + a scimitar and you could do fairly well for yourself, I think.

[Blisstake]

I think it's designed as an ability tax. I'm not necesarily opposed to that, so long as the ability tax comes in the first few levels, rather than started good, and getting worse abilities later game.

[subject42]

Theoretical 8th level build, 25 point buy, no items:

STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse
HB) Toughness
3) Dervish Dance
5) Piranha Strike
7) Arcane Strike
8th level virtual feat) Improved Critical (Manufactured Weapons)

If you aren't burning your swift actions on anything else, this would give you effectively +8 to hit (6 BAB + 4 DEX - 2 Piranha Strike) and 1d6 + 9 damage on a high crit weapon. If you combine that with the integrated haste effect, you're not doing too badly.

[Starbuck_II]

I think it's designed as an ability tax. I'm not necesarily opposed to that, so long as the ability tax comes in the first few levels, rather than started good, and getting worse abilities later game.

You should avoid Archaeologist then. The ability never increases in use/day. So uses do get worse (though the Luck bonus to hit/damage does increase in bonuse)