Best Entry for Daggerspell Shaper?

[Fax Celestis]

So far, what I'm seeing is human Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) 6, taking TWF and WF (Dagger) at first level, Martial Study (some Shadow Hand maneuver) at 3rd, and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at 6.

[RelentlessImp]

Remind me of the prereqs again? Can't find my copy of Complete Adventurer.

[Cog]

Ranger 6 does not qualify for Assassin's Stance; its IL is only enough for a level 2 stance.

[Canine]

I was going to suggest Warshaper 1 at 6th level, but Cog is correct. I think you'll probably have to go Rogue (or something) 1/Ranger 5.

Warshaper would also result in fewer uses of Wild Shape, which are probably more important at this point.

[tyckspoon]

Remind me of the prereqs again? Can't find my copy of Complete Adventurer.

Two-Weapon Fighting, Weap Focus (Dagger), and either Sneak Attack or Skirmish (and Wild Shape, I guess, but you should have that as assumed if you're even thinking about this class.)


Ranger 6 does not qualify for Assassin's Stance; its IL is only enough for a level 2 stance.

Sneak Attack variant Fighter might be an acceptable alternative if looking to maintain full BAB progression. Would be nice to do it with straight Ranger for the spells and skills, tho.

[Fax Celestis]

Ranger 6 does not qualify for Assassin's Stance; its IL is only enough for a level 2 stance.

Oh, damn, that's true. Well, Ranger 6 is fixed. I guess Ranger 6/Swordsage 1 or 2?

[Canine]

Rangers only get light armor anyway, so go for Swordsage 2 for Wis to AC?

[RelentlessImp]

Well... you can take any prestige class with easy prereqs off of Wildshape Ranger 6 for 2 levels then enter into Daggerspell Shaper, since PrCs add full value to IL.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well... you can take any prestige class with easy prereqs off of Wildshape Ranger 6 for 2 levels then enter into Daggerspell Shaper, since PrCs add full value to IL.

Wait, PrCs add full IL?! Since when!?!

[tyckspoon]

It'd have to be Swordsage 2 to get a high enough IL and to work around that awkward "you start with a 1st level stance" line. On the plus side, if you can get your DM to agree that Discipline Focus counts as Weapon Focus for prereqs, you can save a feat out of it; Dagger is a Shadow Hand preferred weapon.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It'd have to be Swordsage 2 to get a high enough IL and to work around that awkward "you start with a 1st level stance" line. On the plus side, if you can get your DM to agree that Discipline Focus counts as Weapon Focus for prereqs, you can save a feat out of it; Dagger is a Shadow Hand preferred weapon.

It grants a feat. Well feats. I don't see why it wouldn't work if you chose Shadow Hand.

[RelentlessImp]

Wait, PrCs add full IL?! Since when!?!

Tome of Battle, page 39, right column, under the left column heading "Initiator Level", last paragraph:



Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level.

[Fax Celestis]

It'd have to be Swordsage 2 to get a high enough IL and to work around that awkward "you start with a 1st level stance" line. On the plus side, if you can get your DM to agree that Discipline Focus counts as Weapon Focus for prereqs, you can save a feat out of it; Dagger is a Shadow Hand preferred weapon.

I think that's feasible. Boo that the earliest entry we can come up with is ECL 8 though.

[tyckspoon]

Tome of Battle, page 39, right column, under the left column heading "Initiator Level", last paragraph:

You left out "see Chapter 5 for details", which is the chapter on Tome of Battle prestige classes. If you check those, you'll see that almost all of the classes have a specific feature for maneuver advancement, and that feature has the line "you add your full (prestige class name) levels to your initiator level." Bloodstorm Blade notably does *not* offer maneuver advancement, does not have that line, and its example character's IL (Build is Fight 2/Warblade 5/Bloodstorm 8, IL given as 10) is in agreement with Bloodstorm not giving full Maneuver progression. Now, we all know example characters are not the most reliable source of information, but... if it's not in Chapter 5 of Tome of Battle and doesn't explicitly advance maneuvers, ask your DM. The rules do not cleanly say "all prestige classes advance IL fully."


I think that's feasible. Boo that the earliest entry we can come up with is ECL 8 though.

You could do it from 7 with a Rogue or Fighter dip easily enough, but I think Swordsage is going to be far more useful for the long-term life of the character. (Also I feel like there has to be a Sneak Attack variant or racial level for the Ranger somewhere? Trading Favored Enemy or something..was this seriously never done?)

[Fax Celestis]

That sounds familiar, but I can't recall where it's from.

[Cog]

Rangers can get SA, but it's through a spell, not an ACF. Hunter's Eye, PHB 2: it's a second-level spell, though, so even if you're comfortable qualifying only when you have the spell up, you don't get it until level 8 (unless you stack Mystic atop Wildshape).

[hex0]

You could do it from 7 with a Rogue or Fighter dip easily enough, but I think Swordsage is going to be far more useful for the long-term life of the character. (Also I feel like there has to be a Sneak Attack variant or racial level for the Ranger somewhere? Trading Favored Enemy or something..was this seriously never done?)

Also, if you can get Rokugan Ninja approved it is slightly better than the Sneak Attack Fighter.

[Godskook]

Why is Ranger 6 'fixed'? Is this a currently running character? Cause Ranger 5/Rogue 1 qualifies just fine. Druid 5/Rogue 1 also qualifies, but I'm guessing you wanted to avoid a tier 1 build.

[hex0]

Why is Ranger 6 'fixed'? Is this a currently running character? Cause Ranger 5/Rogue 1 qualifies just fine. Druid 5/Rogue 1 also qualifies, but I'm guessing you wanted to avoid a tier 1 build.

Because you need wildshape to enter. Wildshape Ranger 6/Rokugan Ninja would be my choice though you might want a better choice of divine spells to progess. Maybe Pious Templar?

[ranagrande]

Because you need wildshape to enter. Wildshape Ranger 6/Rokugan Ninja would be my choice though you might want a better choice of divine spells to progess. Maybe Pious Templar?
Yes, but you get wildshape at 5.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

How are you meeting the prereqs for TWF (unless you actually took a 15 in dex, then I feel sorry for you)?

[Fax Celestis]

Yes, but you get wildshape at 5.Oh, crap, DSS only requires WS, not WS (2/day). Blerglflerg. So Ranger 5/SS 2.


How are you meeting the prereqs for TWF (unless you actually took a 15 in dex, then I feel sorry for you)?

Why wouldn't I? Especially if I'm planning on using Assassin's Stance as my only stance, taking Shadow Blade is pretty much a given.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Why wouldn't I? Especially if I'm planning on using Assassin's Stance as my only stance, taking Shadow Blade is pretty much a given.

Because Wild Shape gives you the physical scores of the monster you become.

[Fax Celestis]

Because Wild Shape gives you the physical scores of the monster you become.

And a 13 plus gloves of dexterity +2 is such a huge investment?

[TheJake]

Not to diss the OPs original question but why Daggerspell Shaper? My understanding is that it is a subpar prestige class, admittedly less so for Rangers than Druids but still... am I missing something?

- J.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are relying on items, you can save yourself a feat slot at the cost of 8000 gp. With that you can buy a pair of gloves of the balanced hand (Mic) which grant Twf (or Itwf if you already have twf).

[Cog]

The wording for Gloves of the Balanced Hand doesn't actually give you the feat in either case - you merely "fight as though you possess" the feat or "make an extra attack as if" you had the feat, respectively.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Damn, I never noticed that >_<.

[hex0]

ive never played a game where combat styles didnt count as TWF.

Also why take Swordsage 2 when you can take something with sneak attack for one level instead? youd get into shaper a level sooner.

[Fax Celestis]

Wildshape Ranger loses combat styles, and SWS 2 gives Wis to AC (a stat this build appreciates, and the AC bonus applies in wildshape).

[Cog]

ive never played a game where combat styles didnt count as TWF.
Oh, the combat styles certainly do - but if you use the C.Warrior/C.Arcane prestige class rules in your group, be careful to never accidentally put on any medium armor, or you've just lost your PrC forever.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

And a 13 plus gloves of dexterity +2 is such a huge investment?

I guess if your group allows that then full speed ahead. Just a quick question, are you going to use Mystic Ranger to boost your spellcasting?

[Fax Celestis]

I was thinking about it.

[ranagrande]

It could be fun to take that class without any levels in Druid or Ranger.

Maybe something like:

Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Dwarf Paragon 1/Swashbuckler 3/Wolflord 1/Dread Pirate 1/Abolisher 1/Divine Crusader 1/Daggerspell Shaper 10/Anything 1

[Dusk Eclipse]

Go Wildshape Mystic ranger/Daggerspell Shaper, that way you can use the +1 spellcasting advancing from Dgrspl Shaper which otherwise would be wasted.

Just make sure to clear up with your DM the CL of the Mystic Ranger as by RAW it only has 1/2 ranger level for it.

[tyckspoon]

Go Wildshape Mystic ranger/Daggerspell Shaper, that way you can use the +1 spellcasting advancing from Dgrspl Shaper which otherwise would be wasted.


WS Ranger doesn't give up casting, and the Ranger gets spellcasting at 4, so it's not wasted.. Mystic Ranger would make it a much more active and useful part of the character, certainly.

@Fax: I'm not sure Shadow Blade is actually good for this character. It only works with Shadow Hand preferred weapons, which means it's only in play when you're not hitting things in Wildshape instead.. although I think perhaps getting Aptitude could help with that, either applied through Daggershape or on a Necklace of Natural Attacks?

[Fax Celestis]

WS Ranger doesn't give up casting, and the Ranger gets spellcasting at 4, so it's not wasted.. Mystic Ranger would make it a much more active and useful part of the character, certainly.

@Fax: I'm not sure Shadow Blade is actually good for this character. It only works with Shadow Hand preferred weapons, which means it's only in play when you're not hitting things in Wildshape instead.. although I think perhaps getting Aptitude could help with that, either applied through Daggershape or on a Necklace of Natural Attacks?

I'm not sure on that. Daggerspell Shaper's Dagger Claws feature might make it count.


Dagger Claws (Su): When a daggerspell shaper of 2nd level or higher uses wild shape, she adds any magical properties of daggers that she is holding in each hand into the natural attacks of her new form. The magic of a single dagger affects only the natural attacks made with the corresponding limb in the shaper’s animal form, not all her attacks. For example, a 2nd-level daggerspell shaper holding a +1 flaming dagger in one hand and a +2 keen dagger in the other hand transforms into a leopard. The daggers affect the claw attacks of her new form as follows: One gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls and also gains the flaming special ability, and the other gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls and also gains the keen special ability. If the assumed form does not have a claw or slam attack with a limb that corresponds to the druid’s natural limbs, this ability has no effect. The bonuses from this ability last for the duration of the wild shape effect. When a shaper uses this ability, her natural weapons in animal form overcome damage reduction exactly as do the daggers that she was holding when she transformed. In the example above, the shaper would be able to overcome a foe’s damage reduction as if both of her natural weapons were magic.

It could be argued either way, really, though RAI seems that it wouldn't work.

[Urpriest]

Unarmed Strikes are Shadow Hand weapons, and if you're building a character that actually uses TWF in Wildshape then you're including some unarmed strikes.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If you wanted to burn 2 feats you could gain entery to Planar Shepherd with this ranger. :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

If I wanted to break the game, I'd just go Druid/Shepherd. I'm going for interesting.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

You're right but I was just stating an option.

Also doesn't daggerspell shaper get an ability at like level eight or so that lets them use magical items that boost their physical stats in wildshape?

[Cieyrin]

You're right but I was just stating an option.

Also doesn't daggerspell shaper get an ability at like level eight or so that lets them use magical items that boost their physical stats in wildshape?

Nothing says wild shaped creatures can't wear items, you just need to take stuff off, change shape and put stuff back on. Dagger Claws takes care of the weapons, any armor you have you'll have to go Wild or Beasthide or have some barding around for.

Alternatively, Wilding Clasps. :smallwink:

[Anarchy_Kanya]

How does an animal put stuff on? :smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

How does an animal put stuff on? :smallconfused:

You have a party. I'm sure one of them knows how to bard a horse (or tiger...).

[Cieyrin]

How does an animal put stuff on? :smallconfused:

Most magic items (weapons and armor excluded) resizes and reshapes for the wearer. Wildshape into something with hands (Dire Ape). Done.

Alternatively, your party Fighter/Monk finally has a purpose: Wildshaped Druid Dresser! :smallwink: