[3.P] All The Critical!

[RndmNumGen]

I've been playing around with the idea of a character who specializes in getting as many critical hits as possible, and taking advantage of them when they do occur. System is Pathfinder, but some 3.5 content is allowed. Aside from Improved Critical, Critical Focus and the Critical X feats, what are the best ways to capitalize on these lucky shots?

[Curious]

Flank with an ally using Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) and a scythe. Profit.

[Maquise]

Use a weapon with a higher threat range (scimitar, falchion, etc.)

Don't know how much help that is, but I'm not much of an expert.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Flank with an ally using Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) and a scythe. Profit.

I'm sure you didn't mean the ally uses both the scythe and Butterfly's Sting, because that would be really subpar.

[Curious]

I'm sure you didn't mean the ally uses both the scythe and Butterfly's Sting, because that would be really subpar.

I meant that you both have to have it, since it's a teamwork feat, and you transfer your crits to him since you're the crit fisher.

[Zagaroth]

So one person with the feat and say a keen scimitar, and the other with a scythe or other weapon with a high critical multiplier and maybe a burst enchantment or two...

I like it. Note, 'receiver' does not have to have the feat

[Randomguy]

Many attacks per round. With a keen rapier, about one in three attacks will be acritical threat. That means if you'll probably get one crit per round if you have three attacks per round. Try using oversized two weapon fighting (which lets you count a one handed weapon as a light weapon for the purposes of TWF) with two rapiers (Or having an ally (or a cohort) do that while you use a scythe.

I remember reading in a post a long while ago about some sort of enhancement you can put on a weapon that increases the critical multiplier to x4. Not a magical enhancement, it needed to be forged by a specific race. I can't remember what it was called though, or what book it's from. It was from a thread asking which exotic weapon his mooks should use, and someone replied with a list of just about every single exotic weapon.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Many attacks per round. With a keen rapier, about one in three attacks will be acritical threat. That means if you'll probably get one crit per round if you have three attacks per round. Try using oversized two weapon fighting (which lets you count a one handed weapon as a light weapon for the purposes of TWF) with two rapiers (Or having an ally (or a cohort) do that while you use a scythe.

I remember reading in a post a long while ago about some sort of enhancement you can put on a weapon that increases the critical multiplier to x4. Not a magical enhancement, it needed to be forged by a specific race. I can't remember what it was called though, or what book it's from. It was from a thread asking which exotic weapon his mooks should use, and someone replied with a list of just about every single exotic weapon.

...Why are you spending a feat slot for an extra +1 damage on your off-hand (maybe your main hand too, if you go for single weapon feats like Improved Crit instead of keen) over a kukri? Spending that feat slot on Weapon Focus for a +1 to attack is considered subpar, and attack bonuses are worth more than damage.

Also, where'd you get the math that a weapon that crits 25% of the time lands a threat every 1/3 attacks? That's 1/4.

[Curious]

...Why are you spending a feat slot for an extra +1 damage on your off-hand (maybe your main hand too, if you go for single weapon feats like Improved Crit instead of keen) over a kukri? Spending that feat slot on Weapon Focus for a +1 to attack is considered subpar, and attack bonuses are worth more than damage.

Also, where'd you get the math that a weapon that crits 25% of the time lands a threat every 1/3 attacks? That's 1/4.

Uh, 15-20 out of 20 is 30%.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uh, 15-20 out of 20 is 30%.

That is closer to 1/3 than 1/4, I guess.

[Randomguy]

I forgot about kukri. But yes, those would be more optimal.

[noparlpf]

Start off with a scimitar, kukri, elven thinblade/lightblade/courtblade, eagle's claw, etc. Gain proficiency and an attack bonus with this by starting out as a Kensai (Fighter variant from Dragon Magazine #310).
Take Improved Critical. (Power Critical is nice too.)
Go through Disciple of Dispater 8.

Critical threat range: 60%, or 9-20.
Of course, they're all still only x2 damage, but say you get sneak attack or the like and use Telling Blow. Or say you use Enervating weapons.

[HunterOfJello]

Blood in the Water stance from the Tome of Battle is a godly stance for critical hitting characters. The stance gives the constant effect that each time you critically hit, you, "enter a near frenzied state from the sight and smell of the blood." This gives you a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. The bonus is untyped and stacks with itself. You only lose the benefit of the stance if you go longer than 1 minute (10 rounds) without achieving a critical hit.

You can gain the stance by either taking 2 feats or taking 1 level in Warblade or Swordsage.

[Ravens_cry]

So one person with the feat and say a keen scimitar, and the other with a scythe or other weapon with a high critical multiplier and maybe a burst enchantment or two...

I like it. Note, 'receiver' does not have to have the feat
Forget a keen scimitar, have a dex rogue go two weapon fighting with keen kukri. If they are a rgoue, they don't care so much about a) base damage, b) critical, and two weapon fighting means more chances to crit.

[Doorhandle]

In Walter's guide to the Magus, it points out that the Magus has a lot to gain from a critical-focused style, as it allows them more devastating spell-crits and a higher chance to to crit with an attached damage spell, such as intensified shocking grasp.

This could be good for a boss-fight: Two Magui, both with the Butterfly's sting feat, one with huge initiative and crit chance (First word) and another that's really "slow" but has a scythe with A certian spell that increases crit modifier cast on it, resulting in 5x crit damage.

Maybe make one part-rouge/gestalt rouge, or an arcane trickster so he has sneak-attack damage, depending on who gets it when you flank.

The party will learn fear your dice. :smallbiggrin:

Also, if you somehow have feats left over, you could use dimensional dervish and it's chain to flank with yourself for Crits and Lolz. Athough that would work better with Arcane trickster.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

im working on an interesting build now... bandit archetype rogue with a keen scimitar, which causes enemies to become frightened and flee at level 8 (Fearsome Blow), CHA mod times per day when they crit and deal Sneak Attack Damage...

combine with telling Blow feat, you crit, deal sneak attack, wait for (intelligent) enemies to withdraw and start running, throw darts into their back, dealing more sneak attack damage, since running denies dex....

Seemed fun, might use it in my next game... plus, a swift, move, and standard action during the surprise round (at level 4 )could be sweet combined with the underhanded talent, also for rogues...

[Keegan__D]

Green Ronin - The Black Company CS has masterwork benefits that improve crit range (Deadly) and confirming crits (Lethal). It's d20, but I can usually convince my DMs to add the benefits, since they're all about variants as well.

[Lilithgow]

I'm not sure if its in Pathfinder, but in 3.5 you can get your hands on an aptitude weapon from the book of nine swords - allows any feat that specifies a specific kind of weapon to apply to the aptitude weapon.

What this was intended for was your weapon focus 'longsword' now works with your Aptitude Rapier.

But what you're actually doing is getting the feat "Lightning Mace". While wielding a 'light mace' in both hands, every time you threaten a critical, you get an additional attack.

Combine with a Kukri, and some keen, etc, etc - this will get you more attacks per round and more attacks means more critical chances.

[Acanous]

I'm not sure if its in Pathfinder, but in 3.5 you can get your hands on an aptitude weapon from the book of nine swords - allows any feat that specifies a specific kind of weapon to apply to the aptitude weapon.

What this was intended for was your weapon focus 'longsword' now works with your Aptitude Rapier.

But what you're actually doing is getting the feat "Lightning Mace". While wielding a 'light mace' in both hands, every time you threaten a critical, you get an additional attack.

Combine with a Kukri, and some keen, etc, etc - this will get you more attacks per round and more attacks means more critical chances.

that is epic. Where is Lightning Mace?

[Dead_Jester]

Lightning Mace is in CWar.

I'm surprised no one has brought it up, but, if your DM is really nice, making the weapon out of kaorti resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) makes the crit range x/4. However, it might be ruled that you can't use the improved crit from Disciple of Dispater with it, as the weapon isn't made of iron anymore.

Now, if you're really mean, combine this with Butterfly's Sting, and give the second guy a weapon with the biggest damage dice you can find (anything that increases your weapons effective size is good here).

[noparlpf]

Flank with an ally using Butterfly's Sting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical) and a scythe. Profit.

To make this easier and not have to plan with teammates ahead of time, play a Dvati.

Edit: Kaorti resin is neat. And if you pick one of the exotic weapons I mentioned, then you've already gone to the trouble of having EWP.

Also, Lightning Maces here will typically get kicked out. I tried it once as a joke with a 9-20 crit range and the DM was not happy.

[RndmNumGen]

Okay, so since I actually like the idea of working with another party member on this, I started looking at teamwork feats. I found two that look very interesting - Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) and Paired Opportunists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/paired-opportunists-combat-teamwork).

Say we have one guy, a Rogue maybe, who is dual-wielding Kukris and another, probably a Fighter, who is using a Scythe. The Rogue has Butterfly's Sting, and both have Combat Reflexes, Paired Opportunists and Outflank. If my reading of the feats is correct, then the following scenario can happen any time the rogue confirms a critical hit and the players are flanking:

Action 1: Rogue threatens and confirms critical. Uses Butterfly's Sting.
AoO 1a: Fighter gets to make an attack from Outflank since Rogue confirmed. This attack auto-crits if he hits.
AoO 1b: Rogue also gets to make an AoO since Fighter got to make one. If this AoO criticals, the Rogue can once again use Butterfly's Sting and let the Fighter take another AoO(Because it's a different action that provokes the attack).
AoO 2a: Fighter makes another attack with Outflank that auto-crits.
AoO 2b: Rogue gets another AoO from Paired Opportunists, allowing another attack...

Etc. This 'Critical Chain' continues on either until the Rogue's AoO doesn't threaten, or either the Rogue or Fighter runs out of AoOs. Or until the target dies - with each iteration of this loop, the enemy takes full critical damage from the fighter and full steak attack damage from the rogue.

Is this correct, or did I miss something that invalidates this combo?

Alternatively, have two rogues with Kukris trading AoOs with each other - the damage per attack is lower, but they have a higher chance of chaining and more Sneak Attack.

[Greyfell]

if you can use Complete Champion, 2nd level in the mythic Exemplar prestige (choosing Sunyartra as your paragon) gives a +1 increase to threat range, which specifically states it stacks with keen/improved crit.

edit: oops, it's limited to once day for rounds equal to ME level,... still, it's rare to get something that stacks with Keen.

[Snowbluff]

Time Stands Still and Avalanche of Blade (great with large values of hit, usually from Blood in the Water stacking) are bot great for crit fishers. Also, Slashing Flurry from the PHB2. Also, Raging Mongoose gives you 4 hits when wielding multiple weapons. Getting a prehensile tail and Multiweapon Attack might be worth it, too.

[ericgrau]

The critical feats take a long time to get, so the best option might be to dip 1 level of non-fighter and take fighter to 16 so you can retrain at character levels 13 and 17 (fighter 12 and 16). Staggering and stunning critical seem best IMO, since by high levels full attacks and actions in general are precious. Bleeding critical looks like a good option to take and retrain later, because level 11 is right before your damage per hit ramps way up so 2d6 bleed is significant.

A couple traps to avoid: Keen and burst are generally not worth it compared to other weapon enchantments. Keen might be worth it after a critical feat or two, but by then you can afford to blow one of your gazillion fighter feats on improved critical.

[Andreaz]

In Walter's guide to the Magus, it points out that the Magus has a lot to gain from a critical-focused style, as it allows them more devastating spell-crits and a higher chance to to crit with an attached damage spell, such as intensified shocking grasp.

This could be good for a boss-fight: Two Magui, both with the Butterfly's sting feat, one with huge initiative and crit chance (First word) and another that's really "slow" but has a scythe with A certian spell that increases crit modifier cast on it, resulting in 5x crit damage.

Maybe make one part-rouge/gestalt rouge, or an arcane trickster so he has sneak-attack damage, depending on who gets it when you flank.

The party will learn fear your dice. :smallbiggrin:

Also, if you somehow have feats left over, you could use dimensional dervish and it's chain to flank with yourself for Crits and Lolz. Athough that would work better with Arcane trickster.

Doesn't work. The Magus crit bonus is always x2 on spells, regardless of weapon. What they share is the crit range.

That said, a Magus will indeed love being given crits because he can often have so many base dice to multiply, due to spellstrike. It's why the scimitar is their "one true weapon".

For critting in general, you want to maximize your chances of getting one off. TWF + Keen Kukris + zomgattacks is the way to go. If you have a 2hf damage dealer that isn't a 2hf-fighter, then Butterfly Sting is a great tool to use on his x3 and x4 weapons (2hf-fighter autocrits as a standard action near the capstone, and for +1 to the multiplier).

Case 1: You are on your own and can use two weapons... Keen Kukris + TWF/MWF
Case 2: You are on your own and can't use two weapons... Keen Scythe or Falchion
Case 3: Your friend has nastier crits... Proceed as #1 or #2 and use Butterfly Sting to make him crit.

For cases #1 and #2 Blood In The Water is an excellent stance, meaning you basically keep gaining +1s every round.
Critical Focus is redundant, but it is the gateway feat.
Tripping Strike lets you execute Trips every time you crit (other maneuvers have their equivalent for this), if you have the spare feats to improve Trip.
Staggering and Stunning critical works well, but some creatures are immune to it even if they can be crit.

[the_fencer0]

My personal favorite is a swashbuckler/duelist, not only do you crit hard (and often), you pretty much avoid damage like crazy. the downside is you only get to use 1 weapon and no shield (but a defending dagger for your offhand and use it as a faux-shield), and hopefully your DM will let you enchant your shirt with an enhancement bonus to AC. Pop a ring with improved evasion, and you're pretty much immune to reflex based damage effects. Your will leave something to be desired, but that is what mind-blank is for.

[RndmNumGen]

I think I'm going to pass on the ToB stuff, because while I can probably convert some 3.5 stuff to Pathfinder I don't feel comfortable porting an entire subsystem over, especially one that Paizo has expressed dislike of. I appreciate the suggestions anyway, though.

For Keen and Burst enchantments, I some comments/questions:

If you're playing a Rogue or similar character with the Butterfly's Sting, wouldn't it be better to use Keen weapons and invest your feats into TWF feats/Accuracy/Movement to get better positioning(for flank) and accuracy in? After all, getting crits to pass on to your allies relies on hitting the target first and foremost.

For Burst enchantments, while they seem subpar for standard weapons(extra 1d10 damage? Eh...) it seems like they would be very useful for weapons with high crit multipliers(extra 3d10 damage? Much nicer). Would it still be a trap in this case?

Finally, on the subject of critical feats... by raw:

1) When using Butterfly Sting, would the character who originally scored the hit trigger the effect of these feats, or would the character who the critical was passed on to(and thus the one who actually does damage) trigger the effect?

2) Would Critical Focus apply to making the attack roll on an opponent who was hit by Butterfly Sting(The original attacker 'confirmed' the roll, which makes me think no, but then the second character still needs to hit to critical).

Thanks guys!

[ericgrau]

The assumptions on not getting keen were (a) you have nothing boosting your criticals other than a nice crit weapon, strength and other such basic things and (b) you eventually have some feats. If you can somehow boost your crit benefits at low levels while feat starved, e.g. in a low feat class, then those no longer hold true and keen becomes worth it.

The assumption on burst were already a nice crit weapon with improved crit or keen, whether it be 15-20/x2 or 19-20/x4. The average damage is still lower than other enchantments. Remembre each number on a d20 is only 5%. If you can somehow boost your chances of crits and/or multiplier beyond that, then burst could be worth it.

The ally needs to hit to take advantage of butterfly's sting. At which point his hit is automatically a crit. This seems best used when you have an 15-20/x2 attack and your ally does x4 on a crit. Incidentally this would also make crits stronger than normal at a low level, allowing things like burst to be worth it. You need to join your ally in melee, hold your action and time it well to make sure your ally is the next person to hit that creature though. If you wanted to focus on such a tactic I'd think ideally you'd want a full BAB class though to hit and confirm the crit, but also acrobatics and a decent enough movement speed to coordinate the attack.

[kulosle]

so i thought i saw a spell that made it so all 2s were treated as 1s and all 19s as 20s. now i know this sounds odd to mention but there is also a luck feat that lets you turn 1s into 20s. which is essentially another 10% chance to crit added. i've also seen this combo used for vorbal purposes. cutting peoples heads off 20% of the time is pretty nice.