Scrying someone you met while they were disguised

[Randomguy]

In the text for the spell Scrying, it says you can only scry people who you either have some knowledge of or some connection (a piece of skin/hair, a piece of clothes or a likeness/picture of them) to someone to scry on them.

But what happens if you try to scry a subject that exists only as a fictional disguise? For example, if an adventuring party meets Bob, an halfling wizard that sends them on a quest. Bob is really one of the recurring villains, a human sorcerer, using an alter self spell, who is using the party to further his own villainous schemes. After several quests, the adventuring party becomes curious as to why Bob is sending them to find dark artifacts, and don't believe that he intends to destroy them, so they decide to scry on Bob.

What happens? The party members have firsthand knowledge of both Bob and the person pretending to be him, but Bob is a fictional identity and doesn't exist. Does the scrying show the human sorcerer (regardless of whether or not he is disguised as Bob at the moment) or does the spell just fail?

What if, to help the spell, the party rogue cuts off a small part of Bob's clothes to use as a connection? The robes were specially purchased by the sorcerer to wear while disguised as Bob, since human clothes won't fit a halfling, so they still count as the sorcerer's possessions. Does the spell work then?

What about if the adventurers never met the sorcerer except while he was disguised as Bob, since he is the superior to a recently defeated villain?

[Anxe]

*cough cough* Does the DM want Bob to be found this way or did he want something else? That's what really matters.

As for RAW. The spell says creature, not identity. Since Bob and the evil sorcerer are the same creature a scry for one of them will be a scry for the other. He is scryable no matter what identity he is dressing up as when he is scried.

[Jack_Simth]

By RAW? They see "Bob" in whatever current form he's in (assuming the party beats any anti-divination measures in place, that "Bob" failed the Will save, and that the Scrying caster beat any SR "Bob" might have).

Despite the little issue that "Bob" is a completely different person to all appearances. It runs off of "have you met the creature" not appearances.

Magic is funny that way.

[Toliudar]

The way around this, of course, is to have the halfling actually be a servant/prisoner that the sorcerer occasionally magic jars into in order to talk with the PC's.

[Jack_Simth]

The way around this, of course, is to have the halfling actually be a servant/prisoner that the sorcerer occasionally magic jars into in order to talk with the PC's.Now that would work, yes. As would "Bob" being a simulacrum of a particularly smooth-talking person, and several other things.

[JaronK]

Magic Jar is your friend. But yeah, this is why we never put anything near the PCs unless you want it killed. They'll always find a way.

JaronK

[Randomguy]

I don't think magic jar is the best idea: If the party does scry on Bob and see him tied up somewhere, they might mount a rescue mission, which might lead to complications.

Using a simulacrum seems like a good idea. He could be made into a miniboss after the villain no longer has any use for him. It's not very cost effective for the villain though.


But yeah, this is why we never put anything near the PCs unless you want it killed. They'll always find a way.

Challenge accepted.

[JaronK]

I don't think magic jar is the best idea: If the party does scry on Bob and see him tied up somewhere, they might mount a rescue mission, which might lead to complications.

Why tie him up? Just possess him and wipe his memories after. It'll look like the perfect cover. Heck, if he's a low will save guy working for someone else, it's even better.


Using a simulacrum seems like a good idea. He could be made into a miniboss after the villain no longer has any use for him. It's not very cost effective for the villain though.

If the villain is a dwarf, he could be a Runesmith and use Simulacrum free.


Challenge accepted.

Heh.

JaronK

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, come to think of it, magic jar is not the way to go ... because occasionally, someone goes and does something unexpected, and if the quest-giver-betrayer says "I don't know what you're talking about" when the PC's ask him something about something "he" was there for, there's a problem.

Mind control likewise has issues, due to the Sense Motive skill (unless nobody in the party has ranks, and nobody in the party has more than a +4 Wis mod).

So that leaves minions of some stripe. Hmm. Simulacrum!

[JaronK]

Use Mind Blank to possess one person. Use Diplomacy to hire a loyal go between. Use the go between for missions.

JaronK

[Gotterdammerung]

Scrying will find him no matter what his disguise was but there are plenty of ways to stop scrying if the GM feels it will ruin the story.

There are wards and spells that stop scrying, divert scrying, attack scryers, scry scryers, and many other things.

I think your easiest solution would be to take a look in the draconomicon. In the dragon section after magic items is a section talking about ward magic items for dragons hoards. Most of them are cheap and work on any hideout or base or fort. Any stationary place. (On a cheese side note, these magic items can be a lot of fun when attached to animated objects or placed on 10 by 10 flying carpets :smallamused:)

Anyway in this section you will find a ward that makes a enemy base appear empty when scried.

[nedz]

Is Bob expecting to be scried ? Or maybe he's just paranoid ?

If so he could use Detect Scrying and False Vision. All manner of hilarity is possible with these.

[Randomguy]

The problem with false vision is that Bob has no way to know whether the party is trying to scry him as a sorcerer or him as Bob, so a false vision might end up giving him away.

A possible solution is to show a tavern room with Bob partying in the middle of the tavern while the sorcerer talks to some hooded figures in drow sign language (Yes, it exists. It's in the monster manual under bonus languages that drow can choose.) or something. Other than that, he could make heavy use of Mordenkain's private sanctum and mind blank at later levels.

[Acanous]

-Sorceror
-Higher level than the PCs

How would he be failing the will save here?

[Strormer]

seeing as the Sor would most likely not want anyone scrying him in whatever form he took, anything which directs divinations away from self would work and since he is the big bad from what you've said he should have more than a few ways to deal with such. Just use any number of ways to avoid the issue, or reward the PC's for their cautiousness and reveal this particular plot, which could open up a whole can of worms when you find out that the Sor is really using his spell to look just like a real NPC who is completely innocent and unaware of any of the actions. No need to get complicated with spells and whatnot, just have him be a random mage of little importance that the Sor knows from around town. Disguise to look like him and hilarity ensues when the PCs attack the completely innocent and oblivious mage. Sor watches from safe in his private sanctum and laughs and laughs and laughs...:smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Other than that, he could make heavy use of Mordenkain's private sanctum and mind blank at later levels.
Or lead-lined rooms, at lower levels. Stops all Divination(Scrying) spells, and a fair number of others.