confused about "scry"

[Kol Korran]

i read people liek this spell, especially for the "scry and die" tactics. however, i don't quite get it. the spell seems quite lousy to me. i had some discussion with a player of mine the last session, so some clarification would be nice.

- first it lasts one minute per level. that is a really short time! what if the scried one is just eating? walking a road? in the latrine? you need to cast the spell in a very specific time to get actuall results, and it seems very much dependent on the DM's whim)

- secondly, the spell sees only 10 feet in each direction. that is usually very, very, very limited! many times it might get you a general idea of where the scried one is (in caves, flying, on a road, in a house), but unless someone shouts "welcome to the tavern of X!" ot you see the flags of Z and it's command on the tent's side or such, it's vey hard to actually learn where the scried one is.

- which leads me to the "scry and die" thing- the teleport spell require a mental image. but is what you see through these few minutes enough to get an estimation of the location? it seems to me that you'll need to know EXACTLY where the place is, not "a palce who looks like THAT". that couldlead to thousands of general taverns, thousands of caves, thousands of houses, and long long stretches of road. how is it supposed to work then?

- a minor annoyance are the phrases "Familiar (you know the subject well)" and "Possession or garment". a bit obsccure. what qualifies as knowing the subject well? having seen him in the pub a over a few months/ years? having drank with him and exchanging general stories? having been an intimate friend who helped with important matters? does research count? how deep a research? and "possession"... my player argued that the scried one once created magic items for them, and since she created them, they were her possessions, at least for a while. to me it seems that a possession is an items used regularily and/ or of importance to the possessor.

so, i come for your expertise. i almost never before touched this spell, and it seemed quite limited to me, relying on a lot of luck.

your thoughts?

[Optimator]

There are other scry spells.

[Jack_Simth]

your thoughts?
You generally use Greater Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scryingGreater.htm) to deal with the duration and get "Studied Carefully" for the follow-up Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm), or you use Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) to get there with no chance of error.

[Jeraa]

Don't get hung up on the "Scry and Die" name. There are several divination spells that would work, not just the one that happen to share a name with the tactic.

As for Scrying itself, its very useful if you know the target is in a meeting somewhere. Seeing a place through Scrying is enough to qualify as "Viewed Once" for a teleport spell. Or if you are currently scrying on the target as you teleport, as "Studied Carefully."

[Analytica]

"possession"... my player argued that the scried one once created magic items for them, and since she created them, they were her possessions, at least for a while. to me it seems that a possession is an items used regularily and/ or of importance to the possessor.

I would say that as the creator sinks personal XP into the item, it contains parts of their "life force". In my opinion this should form a strong and reliable connection. Of course, this could also mean that spellcasters realistically should be wary of letting their enchanted items come into the hands of others... it also makes sense from things like the Law of Contagion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic), as in how voodoo dolls and the like have been portrayed.

[Urpriest]

Seeing a place at the moment you go there seems like it would make you familiar enough to teleport safely. The basic Scry and Die uses Teleport and Scry to find where someone is and go there to kill them. It's more advanced versions with Greater Scrying and the like that make you able to know all their weaknesses and prepare for traps, but the basic one is enough to ruin campaigns because most DMs don't expect you to be able to get into the same room as the villain at will.

[Doug Lampert]

your thoughts?

As others have said, it's not Scry, it's Scry+Teleport that kills campaigns.

So what if he's in the John or whatever? I can see him at a predictable time (predictable to us, he's got no more than 1 round's warning even if he instantly sees the sensor), and then greater teleport our entire team in. We can have someone else buffing so that we're all fully buffed for combat with all our short duration 1 round/level stuff when we jump in, and if he's surrounded by guards we just abort prior to the teleport and he's got no clue who was looking for him.

The action economy edge from surprise + fully pre-buffed even with 1 round/level stuff + group on one is a complete killer. Party level +8 dies a horrible death unless the target is grossly out optimizing the players or using divinations of his own or using non-core defenses to a simple core only attack. In core there's really no effective defense against this other than to be in a forbiddance zone nearly 24/7. And forbiddance costs ludicrous amounts if you want to guard a reasonably large area. (Dimensional anchor traps and the like are (a) loot and (b) useless since they stop me from leaving but can't stop entry.)

Outside of core there are counters to the teleport, but there are also better scrying spells and methods both in and out of core.

[NNescio]

The action economy edge from surprise + fully pre-buffed even with 1 round/level stuff + group on one is a complete killer. Party level +8 dies a horrible death unless the target is grossly out optimizing the players or using divinations of his own or using non-core defenses to a simple core only attack. In core there's really no effective defense against this other than to be in a forbiddance zone nearly 24/7. And forbiddance costs ludicrous amounts if you want to guard a reasonably large area. (Dimensional anchor traps and the like are (a) loot and (b) useless since they stop me from leaving but can't stop entry.)

Mind Blank and Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum outright blocks scrying. Screen can be used as such as well, 'though it's less practical.

Nondetection makes scrying harder.

Detect Scrying is subpar, but gives you an advance warning.

Rope Trick and its ilk gives you a bonus to the Will Save, and blocks teleports.

And for a low-tech solution, there's always lead. Lots and lots of lead sheeting, which should be dirt cheap for a villain to afford.

[Jack_Simth]

And for a low-tech solution, there's always lead. Lots and lots of lead sheeting, which should be dirt cheap for a villain to afford.Ah yes; good old lead. Blocks everything with the Scrying Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) and a few other things besides.

[NNescio]

Ah yes; good old lead. Blocks everything with the Scrying Subschool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#scrying) and a few other things besides.

One notable example:


:belkar: Stop oppressing my culture, you ethnocentric bitch!

[Big Fau]

Mind Blank and Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum outright blocks scrying. Screen can be used as such as well, 'though it's less practical.

Nondetection makes scrying harder.

Detect Scrying is subpar, but gives you an advance warning.

Rope Trick and its ilk gives you a bonus to the Will Save, and blocks teleports.

And for a low-tech solution, there's always lead. Lots and lots of lead sheeting, which should be dirt cheap for a villain to afford.

First and foremost: Lead does not stop Scrying or Greater Scrying. It can stop some spells that can be cast through them, but the Scrying spells are unaffected by Lead otherwise.


Secondly, this just points out the biggest problem with Scry and Die: Magic is really the only reliable defense. So unless the big bad is another full caster that's at least as powerful as the scryer, the campaign arc falls apart once those spells hit the scene.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Outside of core, the Anticipate Teleportation spells are another excellent defense against scry-and-die. They give you warning that things are about to teleport near you, giving you precious moments to buff, escape, etc.

[NNescio]

First and foremost: Lead does not stop Scrying or Greater Scrying. It can stop some spells that can be cast through them, but the Scrying spells are unaffected by Lead otherwise.


Scrying

A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.



Secondly, this just points out the biggest problem with Scry and Die: Magic is really the only reliable defense. So unless the big bad is another full caster that's at least as powerful as the scryer, the campaign arc falls apart once those spells hit the scene.

If the party has competent full casters, and the BBEG is not one (and can't Giamonk his way through), then the campaign arc will fall apart whenever spells hit the scene anyway.

My point is not to dispute that scrying can break a campaign. I fully accept that, and it is indeed a ludicrous powerful tactic against an unprepared DM who is unwilling to strike back. I was merely challenging Doug's earlier assertion that Forbiddance is the only effective defence against Scry & Die tactics in core.

[Jeraa]

Something I posted in another thread can help with the scry-and-die tactic:


Teleport can somewhat be fixed by making it less accurate. Make all teleports send you to someplace close to your destination instead of the exact location. Say, 1% of the total distance travelled. So teleporting 100 miles will place you somewhere within 1 mile of your target. Teleporting 1000 miles places you somewhere within 10 miles. And either get rid of Greater Teleport completely, or just apply the same 1% inaccuracy as Teleport.

Short range teleports aren't meaningfully affected (teleporting only a mile means you appear somewhere within 50 feet of your target).

With this change, Teleport and Greater Teleport are still useful for getting you close to your target, but you will still have to walk their normally once you get close.

You can still scry your target and get close to him, but you will still have to fight your way in.

[Jack_Simth]

You can still scry your target and get close to him, but you will still have to fight your way in.
No, you just use multiple teleports. You've still seen the target location to the same degree. At 1% per 'port, you need to use one 'port for every two orders of magnitude of distance on the precision you'll need.

So 1000 miles becomes 10 miles; 10 mile becomes 500 feet. 500 feet becomes five feet. Three 'ports gets you into melee range.

[Jeraa]

No, you just use multiple teleports. You've still seen the target location to the same degree. At 1% per 'port, you need to use one 'port for every two orders of magnitude of distance on the precision you'll need.

So 1000 miles becomes 10 miles; 10 mile becomes 500 feet. 500 feet becomes five feet. Three 'ports gets you into melee range.

And requires three teleport spells, which leaves you with fewer spells for that encounter. And I never said it removed the scry-and-die tactic. It will just push it back several levels. (Hence the "help with" instead of "fix".) The 1% was just a suggestion. Make it 5 or 10%. Requiring most or all of your 5th level spells (or 7th level is the target is more than 100 miles/level distant).

So this change doesn't remove the tactic, it just makes it more costly, and helps to limit the usefulness of teleportation. (True, just a small limit, but still a bit of help)

Edit: Or instead of 1% of the total distance travelled, just make it a flat 1d10x100 feet.

[Big Fau]

If the party has competent full casters, and the BBEG is not one (and can't Giamonk his way through), then the campaign arc will fall apart whenever spells hit the scene anyway.

How is it that they put that text in every other divination spell except the ones that matter most?

So many campaigns I've played in would have ended differently if that line was in the spell's text.

[Jack_Simth]

How is it that they put that text in every other divination spell except the ones that matter most?

So many campaigns I've played in would have ended differently if that line was in the spell's text.It doesn't go in Divination(Scrying) spells in generally because it's assumed that you're familiar with what the spell-school implies. Things like Detect Magic that specifically mention that they are blocked by lead? They don't have the Scrying subschool. Sort of like how an Evil cleric can't cast a [Good] spell - there's no mention of it in the spell description, because it's already listed in the Cleric spellcasting section.

[Big Fau]

It doesn't go in Divination(Scrying) spells in generally because it's assumed that you're familiar with what the spell-school implies. Things like Detect Magic that specifically mention that they are blocked by lead? They don't have the Scrying subschool. Sort of like how an Evil cleric can't cast a [Good] spell - there's no mention of it in the spell description, because it's already listed in the Cleric spellcasting section.

It just strikes me as poor design that they leave out key weaknesses of a spell. There's only 4 spells with the descriptor, significantly less than any non-alignement descriptor in the Core rules, and they felt that players would know instinctively to look up the descriptor of the spell instead of the text in that situation.

They set a bad precedence with the Detect X spells, and it can cause problems for a DM or a Player.

[Psyren]

If you see any spell with [descriptor], you are assumed to know the pertinent rules of that [descriptor] prior to using that spell. True, it makes reading a non-hyperlinked source (like the PHB) slightly more onerous, but it also cuts down on printing costs and makes the work as a whole more elegant, by reducing redundancy. Indeed, avoiding reprinting the same basic information over and over is why descriptors and subschools were created in the first place.

For instance, Planar Ally doesn't tell you in the spell description that the creature you get will stay with you even in an AMF, and can't be gotten rid of via Dispel Magic - you're just expected to know that by reading the description of Calling effects.

[Big Fau]

If you see any spell with [descriptor], you are assumed to know the pertinent rules of that [descriptor] prior to using that spell. True, it makes reading a non-hyperlinked source (like the PHB) slightly more onerous, but it also cuts down on printing costs and makes the work as a whole more elegant, by reducing redundancy. Indeed, avoiding reprinting the same basic information over and over is why descriptors and subschools were created in the first place.

For instance, Planar Ally doesn't tell you in the spell description that the creature you get will stay with you even in an AMF, and can't be gotten rid of via Dispel Magic - you're just expected to know that by reading the description of Calling effects.

The thing is no Conjuration spells make a direct reference to that interaction (AMF itself does, but that's a sole exception). There are a handful of Divination spells that explicitly state that they are blocked by lead, and none of them have the Scry descriptor.

Why they didn't just make all Divination spells have that weakness, and then called out the exceptions, is beyond me.

[Psyren]

Why they didn't just make all Divination spells have that weakness, and then called out the exceptions, is beyond me.

I get what you're saying, but I only count 12 divinations on the SRD with the "thin sheet of lead" clause; had they done it the way you describe, it would mean lots more typing to identify specific exceptions beyond these, particularly since they'd have to repeat the exception in every splat book that contains divinations as well. So I think in the long run this was the more efficient way.

[NNescio]

I get what you're saying, but I only count 12 divinations on the SRD with the "thin sheet of lead" clause; had they done it the way you describe, it would mean lots more typing to identify specific exceptions beyond these, particularly since they'd have to repeat the exception in every splat book that contains divinations as well. So I think in the long run this was the more efficient way.

The "thin sheet of lead" clause also tends to come hand-in-hand with other conditions like "1 foot of stone", "1 inch of common metal", and "3 feet of wood or dirt", and these conditions do not block Scrying, notably.

'though, the Divination school is definitely rather poorly organized. All those cone detection spells should have been grouped together in a subschool or something.

[Kol Korran]

first of all, thank you everyone for the help, advice, clarifications and more.
i think i'd rule that for teleport, you need to actually know ehre you're teleporting to, and not just how it looks like. sort of "the second floor of Wazoo fortress, the main hall", instead of "the room i can barely see in the scry spell". yes, i know there is a "viewed once" category in the teleport spell, but it seems damn silly to me. you can use that, but in addition tothe above (so inerogating prisoners, other divination and so on).

it won't utterly block the "scry and die", but would require more work (that seems sensible to me).

the lead thing is nice, but fits only villains that don't move about much, or that can have many places covered in lead.

though i liked the suggestion of "not fully accurate teleport", i would like to leave the party the option of teleporting to their destination. so far we used it for covering distance, not scry and die, and in some cases a slight "error" might mean falling into an ocean / lava and so on...

greater teleport for these uses won't come much in this campaign i think, but we'll see.

thank you again for everything. been a great help!
Kol.

[marcielle]

Just rule that you need to view THE WHOLE AREA. As in everything you can see standing from the point you want to teleport to. Unless the man is standing in a 10x10 room, it should be no problem. Or maybe view IN PERSON.

Just for kicks, if the party tries that, send them to a IDENTICAL castle(really, unless you can see the tapestries and decor all castles of the same building material look the same) close by. They have now ported into the throne room of a rather surprised lord/king whose court wizard will instantly see to it they CAN'T tele back out without killing him. And if they kill him well.... I don't think you need help at this point.

[Urpriest]

first of all, thank you everyone for the help, advice, clarifications and more.
i think i'd rule that for teleport, you need to actually know ehre you're teleporting to, and not just how it looks like. sort of "the second floor of Wazoo fortress, the main hall", instead of "the room i can barely see in the scry spell". yes, i know there is a "viewed once" category in the teleport spell, but it seems damn silly to me. you can use that, but in addition tothe above (so inerogating prisoners, other divination and so on).


This is a bit philosophically nonsensical. Knowing what a place looks like (and I suppose how it responds to other senses) is all you can know about it. Names are just things someone happens to call the place, they don't have any particularly deep relation to the place itself.

[Kol Korran]

This is a bit philosophically nonsensical. Knowing what a place looks like (and I suppose how it responds to other senses) is all you can know about it. Names are just things someone happens to call the place, they don't have any particularly deep relation to the place itself.

perhaps my intention wasn't clear. the name i agree is not important, but what i meant is knowing WHERE THE PLACE IS, as in it's location in the world/ space. seeing a place, but not knowing where it is won't suffice.

since i don't expect my players to pull out a grid and pull out a coordinates system, i just assume they'll be using names as reference. (but other ideas are acceptable)

hopefully this is clearer.

[Aidan305]

Personally I have a fondness for the Screen spell in response to players scrying. I once used that particular one to get the players to have the innocent opposition in a heavily contested election arrested while the Villain went ahead with his plan. Shame it's only high level mages can cast it though.