Build Help: lvl 10 (5 caster), 99kgp

[Keegan__D]

This is my first level 10 character, and I don't often play spellcasters (nothing over 3), so I'm all sorts of in the dark. I have a few ideas on what to do with all that money, but it's mostly ability boost and weapons.

If you find this too long, skim restrictions and read what I'm thinking.

Restrictions
My DM requires us to have at least 5 caster levels (half-casters don't count 'till they gain spells, and prestige classes must increase caster level, or it doesn't count towards the required 5), and is limiting us to humans, elves (all), and dwarves (all), though racial variants and most templates are fine. Any source besides homebrew. He's even got a ton of magazines.
The only variant/template he doesn't like (so far) is the SS Feral template, unless I can give an incredible flavor reason why there's a feral creature as a member of a cabal.
3.5, some 3.0

What I'm thinking
I'm looking for a dominantly martial gish with spells to support it. It's a high-challenge campaign (mostly combat), so it's gotta be able to smash through standard lvl 10 challenges without much problem. I'm leaning towards either a charger build (Fighter, barb, sorcerer), a Drow assassin build (sneak atk/skirmish, poisons, and ability drain spells), or dropping martial prowess and coming up with a Darth Vader build.
The metamagic variant from UA (material components) is in play, and I'd like to get maybe one feat to use it. If you see something awesome on the variant that I missed, do tell.
Suggest anything. Like I said, I don't play high level or casters usually, so please share your wisdom.
4 good/decent stats, no negatives

World around us
Flavor ideas are welcome, though I don't know much about the world. It starts off with our cabal of three just having killed a dragon (hence the extra gold). I think it's a mostly industrial world, though still around normal D&D times. Magic is common enough that we're fighting other magical orders, but it's more on the down-low in public. He's pretty hush about anything else, though pressing about specifics shouldn't be hard.

Priorities
Party members include a bard/rogue/virtuoso (uncertain on prestige), and a Pokemon Master (summoner/evoker wiz). We have a little healing available with the bard (and we'll need it based on his style), but I think a magic item, considering our money, should cover it. With the others the way they are, most utility spells will be covered, so a large spell selection isn't necessary, and I'm not interested in most damage spells.


Pleases and thankses :smallsmile:

[Randomguy]

There are two standard gish in a box classes: the duskblade (from phb2) and the hexblade (from complete warrior). (Spoilered because of length.)

Duskblades:
The duskblade is an intelligence based spontaneous caster that gets full BAB, good fortitude and will saves and d8 hd. They can cast while wearing armour without spell failure (and the higher level they are, the heavier the armour they can wear). By lvl 10, they can cast while wearing medium armour and a heavy shield.

Duskblades get combat casting as a bonus feat. They can also channel touch spells through their weapons, one of the best features of the class. Another good class feature is quick cast: basically they can quicken a spell without changing it's level, but only twice per day.
By lvl 10, duskblades can cast 6 lvl 0, 8 lvl 1, 7 lvl 2 and 3 lvl 3 spells per day. They aren't great for metamagic, since they only learn up to 5th level spells, but their spell list is very different from the sorcerer wizard spell list: for them, polar ray is a 5th level spell.
They don't get many buffs on their spell list though.


Hexblades:
Hexblades get spells at about same rate as paladins do. They get full BAB, d10 hd, good will saves and about 1 lvl 1 spell and 1 lvl 2 spell per day at lvl 10. They're charisma based casters that also get charisma as a bonus to saving throws. They specialise in debuffs, and can curse people 3 times per day at lvl 10. They get a familiar at lvl 4 and can trade it for an illusory dark companion that can't fight, but gives enemies next to it a -2 penalty to saves and AC. They also get a 2 bonus feats by lvl 10. Hexblades can't be good. Personally, I don't think they're too great.

Either one can make a good charger build. Fun fact, since both cast spells spontaneously, you can use either one to make a decent dragon disciple. In fact, hexblade 5/dragon disciple 5 gets more spells per day than hexblade 10. (But no lvl 2 spells.) Sadly, that only gives you two spells known.

Multiclassing to make a gish:
The sorcadin is a relatively good gish. First, take two levels of paladin for divine grace. Then take 4 levels of sorcerer. Now you qualify for the spellsword prestige class (from complete warrior). Only take one level: this gives you BAB +5 and lets you cast spells as a lvl 5 sorcerer. It also lets you ignore 10% of spell failure chance. Now, you qualify for Abjurant champion. Start off with 3 levels in this and keep advancing in it 'till you finish the class. It gives full BAB and casting, and lets you extend all your abjuration spells without changing the level of the spell. At lvl 2 you automaticall quicken all your 1st level abjurations. (And all second level ones at lvl 4). Lvl 4 also lets you spend a spell slot for one of several bonuses.This is also a charger build.

For spells known (for gishes) You're best off ignoring spells that do damage and getting spells that make you more awesome and harder to kill, so mostly transmutations and abjurations.

If you want a sneaky character, than beguiler is pretty awesome: 6+int skill points per level on an int based caster, d6 hd, and your spell list is equal to your spells known. It's pretty much the easiest to play of all casters. You mostly get illusions and enchantments though, so you and the bard would be treading on each others toes.

Of all of these I'd recommend duskblade: Your group needs a decent fighter, and duskblades are easy to play and relatively powerful.

[graeylin]

It's not the most powerful build you can get, i leave that stuff to the other masters of the build here on the boards. But when I read your set up, my first thought was Duskblade too.

It gives you a bit of melee meat, and keeps the spellcasting as well. Your group of three needs to be more of a finesse group that a huge power/blasty group, so the duskblade may work perfectly.. just enough melee to handle lots of stuff thrown your way (especially with some summoned help), but not so much that the DM needs to throw huge battles your way to keep you challenged. With a DB and your group, there will be fights you do, and some you walk away from and try a different way.

I think a DB would be perfect. it would make your party stretch themselves to not treat every encounter as a 'kill it till it dies' effort.

[Xtomjames]

As caster's go you have plenty to choose from and since you're doing gestalt you have a lot to work with.

Since all the books except for homebrew are available to you I'll give you some suggestions here.

Druids are nice allrounders and are very powerful 10 level and beyond.

Warlock/Artificer is a brilliant combo especially in later levels (12th level is when it gets really fun), both are magic users/casters though through obviously non-standard definition.

Arcane Swordsage will allow you to be essentially a spellcaster with extremely limited spells that are almost always available to you and gives you the ability to swap back and forth between normal swordsage (with maneuvers) and the arcane swordsage class.

Hexblades and Duskblades are an interesting group of warrior type spell casters and they bring to the table a lot even though they're meager in some respects.

If you want to play a more tricky character I'd go with a Bard, you become a skill monger and if you take perform Beatbox or Body Sound or something of the like you can cast spells without being noticed. Bard is probably the most versatile Arcane spellcaster considering the skill and spells gained.

Another option would the Favored Soul which is essentially the Divine version of the Sorcerer. You get some interesting buffs, a full spell list, and no domain restrictions. Not to mention you become proficient and gain weapon focus for the deity's favorite weapon.

If you're more adventurous I'd say go with the Tantrist from the Book of Erotic Fantasy, full arcane spell caster, gains bonus feats like a Fighter, and you can use the Naked AC bonus rules to get a rather brilliant AC bonus while not wearing armor. Further, your body is your spell book. The only draw back is to gain your spells for the day you must have sex and masturbation doesn't count.

The Dread Necromancer is a rather vile option for you, mix it with a Cleric gestalted and you'll have a potent fighter who can heal and summon back up support.

Another option is the Spellthief mixed with a Warlock and you've got yet another potent combo, you get sneak attacks, can steal your opponent's spells and have invocations and eldritch blast. You can be a Long Medium Short and Up Close range character.

You could also consider the Armored Mage gestalted with either Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Knight, Cleric or Favored Soul any of these combinations would make you a very potent spell caster and melee fighter.

I noticed none of your co-players are psionic. Something to consider is to take a psionic class (some dwarves and humans are psionic naturally, such as the Elans and Duergar) in which case you could do something rather nasty in game with the money you have. Play a psion or Psi-Warrior and get a ring of anti-magic field. Your powers should work just fine in the anti-magic field while no one else's spells will including ranged area affect spells and ranged target spells.


You could go a step further in absolute annoyance and go with the Psi-Artificer.

Then there's the Incarnum soulmedling classes, the Dragonmarked class. The Binder is an interesting choice from the Tome of Magic, as is the Shadowcaster. Truenamer is interesting but very difficult to use, I suggest if you take Truenamer gestalt it with a very powerful fighting class that can also cast spells. A potent combination would be a Truenamer/Paladin or Truenamer/Bard.

If you want to adventure outside of the Primary books the Encyclopedia of Arcane Chronomancer is an interesting spell caster to consider.

Finally a template that will annoy the crap out of your DM but is very fun, is the Divine Minion template. There are various versions of this template. The standard version out of the Deities and Demigods book at the lowest LA which is a +0 you get visibility out to 1 mile (in all forms you may have), gain max hit dice each level, move at 60 feet or gain +30 feet to what ever your speed is, immunity to: transmutation, energy drain, mind effecting effects, DR 35/+4, Energy Resistance: Fire 20, SR 32, Immortality (can't die of natural causes or from massive damage), you do not have to eat breathe or sleep, Automatic Actions: You do not have to make skill checks if the DC is 15 or less, to use the skill in this way is a free action. Get a divine rank of 1 and the bonuses get better, you gain your own domain, can use teleport without error at will, apply your Divine rank as a bonus to essentially everything, you gain your own portfolio a Divine Saliant Ability etc. The Divine rank acts as an LA and you don't gain HD from this LA, though your creature type changes to outsider.

In fact something you could do with this is get a Divine rank 1 from a dead and forgotten god (make the backstory the god gave up his/her last bit of power to you for releasing it from a long imprisonment and it died, or something to that affect). Up your charisma to as high as you can get it (through magical means or otherwise-needs to be level 29) and then take Alter Reality as your saliant divine ability. You will then have full access to all Arcane and Divine spells and all Metamagic Feats.

[graeylin]

As caster's go you have plenty to choose from and since you're doing gestalt you have a lot to work with.

i think i am going blind (or perhaps senile.. i am getting old), but where did you get from the OP that this was a gestalt game? I have looked a couple times, and am not seeing that, so am I missing something that you see? Am I seeing something and not recognizing it? what did my brain miss?

:smalleek:

[Randomguy]

You're not missing anything. OP never said anything about gestalt.

[graeylin]

Ah, thanks. I see these things (or don't see them, as the case may be), and begin to wonder if age and stress are really catching up to me. Family history and all, I tend to watch for signs.

Good to know, this was not one.

[Xtomjames]

Under OP, section "What I'm Thinking" "I'm looking for a dominantly martial gish", gish as I understand it is a shortened slang for gestalt, often referring to a martial and magic pairing.

[Randomguy]

I'm pretty sure gish means melee spellcaster, actually. I'm certain it has nothing to do with gestalt.

[CyMage]

Under OP, section "What I'm Thinking" "I'm looking for a dominantly martial gish", gish as I understand it is a shortened slang for gestalt, often referring to a martial and magic pairing.

While gestalt makes gish characters much easier to build, they are not one and the same. As others pointed out, gish means a martial caster who normally buffs themselves to become powerful. Gestalt is an option outlined in the DMG for more powerful characters.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Under OP, section "What I'm Thinking" "I'm looking for a dominantly martial gish", gish as I understand it is a shortened slang for gestalt, often referring to a martial and magic pairing.

Er, gish isn't gestalt. Eldritch knights, clerics, and druids were the first gish. They aren't gestalt.

[graeylin]

Ah, even better. Mystery explained, neither one of us is going down the nuts path...

Gish is a fighter/mage... in the old old days, exactly that.. a fighter/wizard multiclass. Now, we have duskblades and warblades and battlesorcerers and all... oh my!

[Flickerdart]

Does 5 caster levels mean "more than 5", "less than 5", "exactly 5", "CL5", "5 levels in a casting class"? Because if it's a limit then you'll want a fast-track PrC like Divine Crusader or Ur-Priest to give you the highest level of spells for the smallest CL.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Level 10, gish.... 99k gp can buy a lot of Night Sticks.

Go NG Human Druid 9/ Cloistered Cleric 1, having gained the Cleric level after Druid 8. Feats should be Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, and Divine Metamagic: Persistent. If you can use flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), get Companion Spellbond and Natural Bond as well. Your Cleric domains should be Travel and Wrath, with the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Wrath, and switch your Knowledge domain from Cloistered Cleric to the Knowledge Devotion feat. Max ranks in Kn: Nature but only put five ranks in Kn: Religion and one rank in each of the others, so you'll always get at least a +1 bonus to attack and damage against every opponent. I'd max out Listen, Spot, and Handle Animal, and probably Survival. Your animal companion should be a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) which you've used Handle Animal to grant the Warbeast template to (MM2). With Natural Bond you'll get to count all of your Druid levels toward its benefits. You should prioritize your ability scores Wis > Con > Int > Cha > Dex > Str, every level-up should go into Wis, and maybe even start out middle-age or old age if your Con is pretty high.

Get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed (9,000 gp per DMG), at least two Lesser Rod of Extend, a Circlet of Rapid Casting with a Wilding Clasp, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, at least eight Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (turning) spell foci with Unguent of Timelessness applied to them, and six Night Sticks. Note that a Wilding Clasp makes an item 'continue to function' when you wild shape; part of a belt's function is to hold other items. Thus, any items tucked into your belt when you wild shape (metamagic rods, bone talismans, etc.) will not meld into your form so you can still use them.

You'll have enough turning attempts for four persistent spells per day without using any bone talismans, which should be saved for actually turning undead anyway. Use the Bead of Karma on your Strand of Prayer Beads before buffing every day. Use a Rod of Extend to cast Longstrider, Snowsight (Frostburn), and Luminous Armor every day, and also cast Greater Resistance daily. Your DMM: Persistent buffs should be Bite of the Weretiger, Superior Magic Fang, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Master Air. Note that these are all at caster level 13, and you should share every one of them with your animal companion. If your party members each want to buy a 1st level Pearl of Power and go in thirds for more Lesser Rods of Extend, you can cast Snowsight on each of them as well every day, and use the spell Obscuring Snow (Frostburn) whenever you're out adventuring.

Stay Wild Shaped into a Dire Lion or a Smilodon (Frostburn) or a Megaraptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#megaraptor) (post-errata). In combat, use the Circlet of Rapid Casting and a Rod of Extend to cast Produce Flame and then charge in, and you'll get fire damage added to all of your melee attacks as per holding the charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardCastaSpell) on a touch spell. You can also take the form of a Cave Triceratops from Miniatures Handbook, use Rhino's Rush and charge with a gore attack, then the following round trample the opponent and move away as part of that, and then repeat that as often as necessary. Your other Druid spells prepared can be utility spells and condition fixers, offensive spells like Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm, Icelance, and Creeping Cold (which should be Rod of Extended), and maybe Enrage Animal and Nature's Favor for your animal companion.

With regards to the Bone Talismans, with the Unguent of Timelessness your Bone of Turning should last just under 33 days with the Bead of Karma. Note that the spell foci can be reused indefinitely, and the unguent never wears off. You're going to be preparing Bone Talisman once every day, maybe more if you use some, and casting it at the end of the day on whichever bone's duration has just run out. Each of the bones should be threaded onto a long loop of string, possibly numbered or color-coded, and each time you recast it you move that bone around the string to the other end of the row. Whenever you use one of the bones for turning you always use the one with the shortest remaining duration. Yes, Druids are just as good at Turning Undead as Clerics are, though it takes a little bit more effort and paperwork to accomplish. As long as your character has a system and you keep track of how many you use you shouldn't run out during an adventure, they can all be renewed during downtime.

During the next few levels try to get a Standard Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. At level 12 or 13 you should prepare Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity every other day, cast both with the Rod of Extend and use the pearl to recover and cast Energy Immunity again with the rod. Each will last 48 hours, thus they only need to be cast every other day. On the days in between, prepare Energy Immunity twice and use the pearl to cast it three times, again with the Rod of Extend so they'll last 48 hours. That will give you continual immunity to all five energy types and a +6 Resistance bonus to all your saving throws, and be sure to share those with your animal companion.

This is an extremely powerful character, and not too difficult to play once you get the hang of it. You'll get your Wisdom bonus to AC from the Monk's Belt, plus the Luminous Armor, natural armor of your form, and the bonus natural armor from Bite of the Weretiger. Your melee attacks will be extremely powerful between your buffed Strength and bonuses to damage, plus fire damage from Produce Flame. Your animal companion is also considerably strong, every three HD it gains (6th, 9th, 12th, etc.) it gets another feat like any one else which should be Ability Focus: Poison, Virulent Poison from Savage Species, and then give it the Mage Slayer line of feats from Complete Arcane, just be sure it's getting cross-class Spellcraft ranks ahead of time to qualify for them. Between its poison attacks, Leaping Pounce, and the buffs you share it should be more powerful than some of your previous characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html).

[Hirax]

Restrictions
My DM requires us to have 5 caster levels (prestige classes must increase caster level, or the level doesn't count)

I'd also like some clarification here. Are you limited to 5 levels of caster progression, so if you took wizard5 you'd be unable take any class, including another wizard level, that would advance your casting progression any further? I agree with Flickerdart if that's that case.

[Keegan__D]

Thanks, Randomguy, for the full class descriptions. The Duskblade seems interesting, and I especially like the spontaneous Int-based casting, but I don't much care for the abilities past 5th level. Does anyone know of a prestige class with full progression that would suit the Duskblade?
Though, with Quick Cast and Arcane Channeling, it doesn't say anything about not using other classes. Free quicken for Wizards would be cool. UA variant to get fighter feats?
The beguiler was a consideration, but with most of the spells already being covered, I figured we'd end up too focused.

Biffoniacus_Furiou, that's a bit complex, and I don't think my DM would appreciate it, likely coming back with "only if you let me play pun-pun." It's not something that I could really come up with, and he'd spot it instantly.

As for the caster requirement mix-up, we must have at least 5 caster levels. The class must gain spells per day/known and the sort for it to count. Half-casters (like paladins) don't count until they gain spells, and prestige class levels only count if that level increases a spellcasting level. I've fixed the original post to hopefully be more clear.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Duskblade is actually pretty good to stick with at least until 13th level. As far as BAB, HP, saves, and spellcasting, the only prestige class that's not decidedly worse than taking more Duskblade would be Abjurant Champion, and its greatest draw (Abjurant Armor) doesn't even work with any spells a Duskblade gets. You could get slightly better spellcasting by going something like Duskblade 2/ Warblade 4/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Dragon Disciple or Warblade 4, since you'd get access to most of the better Sorcerer/Wizard gish spells.

For something completely different, Crusader 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5 gets some cool abilities and decent psionic manifesting. You'll need to spend a feat on Wild/Hidden Talent and spend your low level skill points carefully, but it gets a +20 BAB and with Practiced Manifester you'll have a manifester level of 19 for bonus powerpoints and augmenting.

Just a single-classed Druid with Natural Spell, Natural Bond, and Companion Spellbond will be stronger than all of the above without any complicated tricks. The main draw of what I posted may be complicated to set up, but in return it's actually far less complicated during play. You could just tell him that since you're not used to playing casters you got a build off the internet, and bring a backup character in case he rejects it.

[Keegan__D]

I haven't done any reading in Psionics so far, but I will check that department out, and if the DM is okay with it.

The more I see it, solid Druid looks better and better. I'm a fan of spontaneous casters; Is there a variant other than the one in UA that lets a Druid cast spontaneously?

[hex0]

If you are going to take Duskblade, take it to 13 for full arcane channeling then you can get out.

You can channel any spell you know.

Duskblade 13/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/(whatever) 1
Duskblade 13/Chameleon 7

or any spell you can steal...

Duskblade 13/Spellthief 1/Psionic Rogue 1/Arcane Trickster 3 /Abjurant Champion 2 (impromptu sneak attack to steal any spell you want 1/day)

But let's not get hasty...(or maybe we should?) :smallamused:

Duskblade 13/Spellthief 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 5
Duskblade 13/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Swiftblade 3

[Randomguy]

I haven't done any reading in Psionics so far, but I will check that department out, and if the DM is okay with it.

The more I see it, solid Druid looks better and better. I'm a fan of spontaneous casters; Is there a variant other than the one in UA that lets a Druid cast spontaneously?

What's wrong with the one in UA?

The only other thing other than an actual spontaneous casting druid that comes to mind is a spirit shaman: They chose their spells known each day from the druid list, and cast those spells known spontaneously. That's just about the only similarity they have with druids, though.