Is the Summoner / Synthesist too powerful?

[Starspawn]

Dear all,

i was thinking about playing a summoner in our next Pathfinder adventure. Since i am a fan of fluid gameplay / Initiative i dont want to bore my fellow players to death with summoned monsters spamming our initiative.
So i decided for the Synthesist variant.
But after i finished building the Character everyone thought the build was far too powerful.
I dont want to copy all the details but i even did not use str. dex. and con. as total dump stats.
But a 1st lv Synthesist with summoned eidolon seems to be more powerful than the average 1st lv Character since he has spells and full BA nat armor and so on.

Whats your point of view? Have any of you had this problem? How can i cap the Synthesist without crippling it. Does this Advantage persist over the next levels?

Thank you for your Help!

[grarrrg]

But a 1st lv Synthesist with summoned eidolon seems to be more powerful than the average 1st lv Character since he has spells and full BA nat armor and so on.


At the early levels? Yes, you are superman. You fight like a Barbarian, and cast like a (Wizard power, Bard# slots). But these will both diminish some as you level.

You have limited action economy, you cannot cast and fight in the same round (whereas a normal Summoner could cast, while his Eidolon fights)

While you have the 'power' of a full caster, you have greatly limited spell slots (same per level as a Generalist Wizard, but only 6 levels of slots instead of 9).

Also, if you are ever without your 'Eidolon-Form' you become much less of a threat (still a threat, but less so).

[awa]

your con is important for your hp so you cant dump it completely.

[togapika]

Your physical stats are always replaced with the eidelon's, even if yours are better...
You also have to decide between buffing and wading into combat from round to round
Also you don't get access to the most powerful spells Wiz/Sorc's do

[awa]

i appear to have been mistaken you keep your own hp to add to the eilodens but your con score is still replaced and it doesn't have a clause saying you hp isn't affected by the change to con

[Starspawn]

Technically you could stay in your eidolon form as long as you are awake. So the only vulnerability is sleeping. You could even heighten your diplomacy by 8 points which guarantees you excellent social acceptment of your eidolon.
Anyway. I was thinking about reducing the daily time you can summon your eidolon. Probably to 1h/lv while reducing the casting time to two standard actions.

[Curious]

Anyway. I was thinking about reducing the daily time you can summon your eidolon. Probably to 1h/lv while reducing the casting time to two standard actions.

Er, why? Either that means you can't use your main class feature in several encounters a day, or it becomes meaningless after a few levels when you have enough hours to have the Eidolon up all the time.

If your players think the Synthesist is overpowered, tell them that it is actually much less powerful than a normal Summoner due to basically losing a whole second set of actions.

[Drothmal]

At the early levels? Yes, you are superman. You fight like a Barbarian, and cast like a (Wizard power, Bard# slots). But these will both diminish some as you level.

You have limited action economy, you cannot cast and fight in the same round (whereas a normal Summoner could cast, while his Eidolon fights)

While you have the 'power' of a full caster, you have greatly limited spell slots (same per level as a Generalist Wizard, but only 6 levels of slots instead of 9).

Also, if you are ever without your 'Eidolon-Form' you become much less of a threat (still a threat, but less so).

+1

This is one of the best summaries I've seen of pros and cons of the syntesist

[Starspawn]

So is there any option or House Rule any of you uses to balance the summoner? IMHO this class is outright broken when starting at 1st. Lv.

[Larpus]

Considering that you get to choose how your Eidolon turns out, then the Eidolon/Synthesist is only as strong as you make him.

So if you/someone thinks it's too powerful, grab more utility evolutions and maybe a small nerf to the extra HP, but honestly I dunno which combatant wouldn't like the weight off their shoulders when it comes to soaking damage.

[panaikhan]

When I statted up my Halfling Synthesist, I went out-and-out Tank.
Not much in the way of damage output (being out-stripped by the Sorcerer and his crossbow is a little embarassing) but definately 'threat' and 'damage sponge'

[Grendus]

The question is not 'is the synthesist too powerful' but 'is the summoner too powerful'. Synthesist is a step down, you trade a lot of power in the action economy (going from two creatures to one) for survivability. There are some nice abuses, like dumping your str and dex and wearing your 'power suit' all day, but that's offset by being unable to full attack with the eidolon's impressive number of natural weapons and still cast spells.

Though as some have pointed out, it is more of a bell curve. Synthesist starts out very strong, full BAB and 18+con hp with plenty of powerful natural attacks. Once the other casters start catching up, the Synthesist takes his place in low T2 high T3 with the other spells known casters. If you wanted a compromise, lower the humanoid's HD to d6 and have it use the humanoid's BAB. That makes it a little bit more manageable while still being viable at higher levels. It should be fine though, at low levels 18 HP won't save you, and at higher levels you're vulnerability to spells designed for use against outsiders offsets your increased survivability.

[Paul H]

Hi

The Synthesist can fulfill more than one role (tank/buffer/battlefield control), and is proportionally more powerful at early levels.

As for economy of action - IMHO the bonuses you get (survivability et al)outweigh the loss. But this is down to personal taste/playstyle.

Biggest weakness of Synthesist is the Dismissal spell. However the Synthesist can benefit from the Augment Summoning feat when casting Summon Eidolon (Summoner 2). Lasts for 1 min/lvl, and makes your Eidolon suit even more powerful!
Note: Augment only works with the spell, NOT the normal summoning, which takes a ritual (not spell).

So for early levels it's powerful, by the time Dismissal is on the NPC's spell list, it's not.
Dismissal:You may have started out this morning as a powerful dragon wielding many 2H wpns, but now you're just party buffer/battlefield control. And squishy!

Please note in Pathfinder Society Games characters 'retire' at 12th lvl, just at the time Synthesists start to be a riskier option.

Finally, Synthesist is better at low level, risky later vs dismissal. Dragon Disciples get good bonuses, and aren't dismissable.

Thanks
Paul H
(PFS Synthesist player)

[Feralgeist]

It takes 10 rounds to Summon, doesn't heal naturally and you get its health as temporary hit points. I made an old man synthesist in a tabletop game. Brutal with preparation, comical when caught unawares it makes for something that is fun to play without being able to outshine in every scene. You can contribute to most situations adequately but not as much as someone who built their char specialized for the task. The action economy issue makes for alot of tough calls too, which becomes more and more important as you gain levels. I reckon its pretty balanced as long as you aren't actively trying to cheese.

[(Un)Inspired]

So is there any option or House Rule any of you uses to balance the summoner? IMHO this class is outright broken when starting at 1st. Lv.

Outright broken!!!!!!11

No campaign is safe.

Hide your kids, wife, etc, etc...

The summoner is a decently powerful stick of beef that gets to borrow a couple of the big boys tricks. The Synthesist less so.

It's hardly a wizard or cleric even at low levels.

[grarrrg]

It takes 10 rounds to Summon, doesn't heal naturally and you get its health as temporary hit points. I made an old man synthesist in a tabletop game. Brutal with preparation, comical when caught unawares it makes for something that is fun to play without being able to outshine in every scene. You can contribute to most situations adequately but not as much as someone who built their char specialized for the task. The action economy issue makes for alot of tough calls too, which becomes more and more important as you gain levels. I reckon its pretty balanced as long as you aren't actively trying to cheese.

Dude.
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