[3.5e] Sneak Thrower build

[alzagor]

Here's the build I was working over -- thoughts?

My main drive was to create a little six shooter (daggers) . But I wanted him to be a bit rounded, so he's not only good for a ranged attack. Added a bit of spellcasting for flavor. I would've like to put more time into social skills, but I'm not sure there's a technical need for that in the campaign.

The campaign will probably dry up before we hit 20, so that rules out a lot. The first five levels are going to be accelerated to 5th or 6th. This is mainly to get the group working together before the proper campaign.

Lastly, Tome of Battles and other less classic base classes are not desired.


Halfling (Strongheart)

1. Rogue 1 - PBlank, 2WF, racial-sub for +1d6 Ranged SnAtk.
2. Fighter "Targeteer" 1 - "Vital Aim", ACF "Armored Mage"
3. Rogue 2 - new feat+++, Evasion
4. Rogue 3 - ACF Penetrating Strike or Death's Ruin, +SnAtk.
5. Swashbuckler 1*** - Weapon Finesse
6. Swashbuckler 2 - Daring Outlaw, Grace +1, +SnAtk.
7. Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike
8. Fighter "Targeteer" 2 - Weapon Focus
9. Master Thrower 1 - Quick Draw, new feat+++, pick up Hidden Blade skill trick
10. Invisible Blade 1 - Unfettered Defense, +SnAtk.
11. Invisible Blade 2 -Bleeding Wound
12. Invisible Blade 3 - Uncanny Feint, Death Stalker, +SnAtk.
13. Whisper Knife 1 - Uncanny Dodge, Rapid Shot
14. Whisper Knife 2 - +SnAtk.
15. (more Rogue, Master Thrower, Invisible Blade, or Whisper Knife)


+++I have some great abilities rolls, but one god awful 6. 13-2/18+2/15/15/6/13. I dumped this into Wisdom, so there's a toss-up if I wanted to pick up Force of Personality or Agile Athlete to patch the low ability. Alternatively, I'd just pick Craven.

****I have to think about removing Swashbuckler since reading this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216999.

Originally, I was trying to embrace the Halfling Paragon and Halfling Substitution levels to be more pure to the race, instead of mutting it up. However, it's hard to justify the costs for the Paragon 3-class dip.

[Daftendirekt]

...Only one level of Master Thrower? Did you miss the capstone somehow? You know, that thing that turns all your thrown attacks into touch attacks? It's only the best thing ever for a thrower.

I'd suggest this:

Rogue* 7 OR Fighter 2/Rogue* 4 OR hell, why not, Ranger 3/Rogue* 3

That gets you the required +5 BAB for Master Thrower. Fighter would just get you feats apart from the ones you need for entry.

Then, take Master Thrower 5. Palm Throw and Weak Spot are the ones you will take, period. Third trick is up to you.

NOW, go into Whisperknife, take as much of it as you want. It's all tasty stuff for a thrower.

And your weapon will be Halfling Skiprocks, found on RotW pg. 165.

*And that first rogue level had better be the Halfling Rogue substitution level from RotW.

[Dralnu]

You probably want more Master Thrower. If I recall, one of the tricks is "palm throw" and gives you double the dagger output. Its a volley so not double sneak attack, but still very good.

You say you want a character that is well-rounded, good social skills, and has some spellcasting. Keld Denar's Flick build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11) does all that. You're a bard that buffs all his (and allies!) attacks with extra fire damage. Then you also have spellcasting, great social skills, and other utility. You can replace the warblade levels with stuff from your current build.

[Curmudgeon]

Why isn't Far Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot) there? Without that feat you'll always have issues throwing daggers. With foes at 5' distance you'll provoke attacks of opportunity when you throw, and at 10' distance you get the first (-2) range increment penalty. At least with Far Shot your dagger range increment becomes 20', so you can throw at 10' and 15' ranges without problems.

[alzagor]

RE: More Master Thrower levels --
RE: Master Thrower "palm throw" --

-- Good ideas! I had some of those ear marked for later. Nothing immediately comes to mind why I skipped over it so quickly (this is the 6th iteration or so). Originally I did have some Ranger levels in there, for example.

RE: Flick build --

-- Great link! Some good solid ideas in there, if not the whole concept.

RE: Far Shot --

Yes! That got lost in the shuffle. It was one of the earlier feats I picked, but it must've been accidentally lost when trying to consider a feat to patch the low Wisdom score. Definitely worth having.

Thanks for the solid advice :)

BTW, Skiprocks -- does it depend on the DM or is it fairly simple to find and carry a bazillion of those?

[Hirax]

If you can fit 4 levels of bloodstorm blade in there somehow, I'm sure you wouldn't mind getting the throw anything feat for free, and having any weapon you wield gain the returning property, and being able to make a full attack with a single thrown weapon. IE, you can throw the same dagger multiple times in one round.

[Daftendirekt]

The neat thing about Skiprocks is that they are treated as ammunition for the purposes of enchanting, but don't have that whole "chance they break on use" thing going for them. So, get say... a dozen Returning Skiprocks (as well as any other enchantments you want, if you're higher level) for super cheap and you're set.

And seeing as you're a halfling, only a douchebag DM would say no to you having them.

[alzagor]

So if I ignore Invisible Blade class and take 5 Master Thrower levels, it looks like the only thing I'm missing out of significance is a couple +Sneak Attacks and his ability to Feint as a move (or free action). Are there any good tactics to strive for that are on par with these Feint bonuses?

ps. Good idea with the Skiprocks -- I was worried they'd be considered lost after every shot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget Sneaky Shot. Slight of Hand check to make opponent denied dex bonus to AC is made of win. Keep in mind, it doesn't make an opponent flat-footed, it flat denies dex bonus, which means sneak attack, even on things with Improved Uncanny Dodge...

[Daftendirekt]

Invisible Blade is for melee builds anyway. The whole thing with it requiring ranged feats is retarded. And here's why. To quote the PHB:

"As a standard action, you can try to mislead an opponent in melee combat so that he can't dodge your next attack effectively... blah blah blah a bit ...the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC... And so on.

Point being: feinting is melee only, so the Invisible Blade -- a class that makes Feinting uber -- requiring three RANGED feats is ridiculous. I don't know what the hell they were smoking when they did that.

[Drelua]

Invisible Blade is for melee builds anyway. The whole thing with it requiring ranged feats is retarded. And here's why. To quote the PHB:

"As a standard action, you can try to mislead an opponent in melee combat so that he can't dodge your next attack effectively... blah blah blah a bit ...the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC... And so on.

Point being: feinting is melee only, so the Invisible Blade -- a class that makes Feinting uber -- requiring three RANGED feats is ridiculous. I don't know what the hell they were smoking when they did that.

Actually, the invisible blade was originally intended to be a 10 level PrC that included range abilities, and the ranged feat requirements were left in accidentally, then later errata'd out. So yeah, that doesn't belong in a ranged build, but at least they didn't screw up quite so terribly as it seems.

[grarrrg]

1. See link to Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276&highlight=katana+thrower) in my sig.
2. Read ENTIRE first post.
3. Make slight changes.
4. PROFIT!
[/thread]

[Doughnut Master]

Would Bloodstorm Blade allow for ranged feinting?

[Hirax]

Would Bloodstorm Blade allow for ranged feinting?

Theoretically yes, I run it by your DM first though. Its 'treat ranged attacks as melee attacks' might allow for shenanigans that your DM doesn't wish to deal with. This is particularly true with chargers using it.

[Hague]

Have you tried using this build by swapping Rogue with Scout? Not sure if everything would work out as well, but the extra move speed and ability to ignore difficult terrain work to make up the Small sizes' movement speed.

Also, I've been reading Dragon Magic lately and I noticed a PrC called Hand of the Winged Masters that has a capstone that is intriguiing: True Stealth. It allows you to take a -10 penalty to a Hide or Move Silently check to defeat Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent and Tremorsense abilities. Also, at that point it also deals +1d6+x damage and converts your sneak attack to fire energy type (or other energy damage based on your heritage breath weapon if applicable) where x is the number of special attack dice (sneak attack, sudden strike or skirmish) Also, they inherently double the length of "harmless" arcane spells cast upon them (this doesn't count as doubling in the sense of Extend Spell, so it may be extended again) This means that with UMD and spell completion you can double the effectiveness of most buffs.

[minchazo]

Four levels of fighter would let you eventually get ranged weapon mastery with your skiprocks, in all ways better than far shot. (though it would stack, too.