Balancing Epic Levels W/ Houserules

[Murg]

I'm planning a campaign that will go up to 30th level, and I need to figure out how to keep things from falling apart when the characters reach high levels.

The scenario I'm concerned about is like this:

High level PCs use high level divination to find location and weaknesses of main villain. PCs buff themselves up, teleport to villain's inner sanctum, time stop, villain gets turned into paste from high level spells, PCs teleport out, DM (me) tears his hair out.

There's so many things to consider I'm sure I haven't come up with everything, but this is what I have so far. I divided it into the basic house rules that I always DM with, and then house rules specifically designed to balance epic level gameplay:

Basic House rules:
1.The campaign setting is a hybrid of Forgotten Realms and Oriental Adventures (Kara-Tur). No stuff from other campaign settings, no Dragon magazine, no psionics.
2. Instead of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 for hit points PCs get a flat 3, 5, 6, 8, 10.
3. In this version of Forgotten Realms permanent magic items are extremely rare, but limited use items like potions, wands and scrolls can still be bought in major cities. So I don't have to worry too much about epic items unbalancing the campaign.
4. No more than 4 classes total! This is to prevent PCs from taking a bunch of front-loaded classes.
5. This will be a fast XP-gain campaign.
6. Standard 25 point buy character creation.

House rules specifically designed to balance epic levels:
1. No Time Stop or Shapechange spells? Or make them have a big XP cost?
2. No teleport or planar-traveling spells above 5th level? This could prevent the scenario I described above.
3. Epic spellcasting exists but researching epic spells will be so incredibly difficult that if the PCs make a concerted effort to research an epic spell at level 20 they might finally get it by level 30, just in time to use it on the BBEG in the last battle of the campaign. So epic spellcasting would be there mostly for the epic-level Bad Guys to use (“Let’s stop the evil wizard from sinking the continent!”).
4. What to do about wildshape??? I'd rather not ban it outright, but maybe nerf it somehow, and at the same time give some other boon to make up for the nerf?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm planning a campaign that will go up to 30th level, and I need to figure out how to keep things from falling apart when the characters reach high levels.

The scenario I'm concerned about is like this:

High level PCs use high level divination to find location and weaknesses of main villain. PCs buff themselves up, teleport to villain's inner sanctum, time stop, villain gets turned into paste from high level spells, PCs teleport out, DM (me) tears his hair out.

There's so many things to consider I'm sure I haven't come up with everything, but this is what I have so far. I divided it into the basic house rules that I always DM with, and then house rules specifically designed to balance epic level gameplay:

Basic House rules:
1.The campaign setting is a hybrid of Forgotten Realms and Oriental Adventures (Kara-Tur). No stuff from other campaign settings, no Dragon magazine, no psionics.

Oriental Adventurers is not particularly balanced, though often in the bad way. Psionics are no more broken than vancian casting.


2. Instead of d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 for hit points PCs get a flat 3, 5, 6, 8, 10.

This doesn't really prevent brokenness. Just randomness.


3. In this version of Forgotten Realms permanent magic items are extremely rare, but limited use items like potions, wands and scrolls can still be bought in major cities. So I don't have to worry too much about epic items unbalancing the campaign.

Craft feats exist, right? So...no. Also, rarity of items only makes power spreads wider, as this hurts casters less than melee.


4. No more than 4 classes total! This is to prevent PCs from taking a bunch of front-loaded classes.

And, this does not make balance a thing. I can gleefully take any of the most broken caster classes this way, and not worry. What, I have to take all ten levels of incantatrix? And go into epic incantatrix? I'll manage to get by, I suppose. (/sarcasm)

Melees need dips. Oddball, fluffy concepts need dips. Break the game builds don't.


5. This will be a fast XP-gain campaign.

I don't see how this makes things more balanced at all.


6. Standard 25 point buy character creation.

Low point buy is rather unlikely to make epic any more balanced.


House rules specifically designed to balance epic levels:
1. No Time Stop or Shapechange spells? Or make them have a big XP cost?

And, other 9th level spells exist, right? Like wish? And genesis?


2. No teleport or planar-traveling spells above 5th level? This could prevent the scenario I described above.

So, you mean, no teleport or planar traveling spells at all, right? This doesn't strictly stop planar travelling, it just makes it a bit more difficult.


3. Epic spellcasting exists but researching epic spells will be so incredibly difficult that if the PCs make a concerted effort to research an epic spell at level 20 they might finally get it by level 30, just in time to use it on the BBEG in the last battle of the campaign. So epic spellcasting would be there mostly for the epic-level Bad Guys to use (“Let’s stop the evil wizard from sinking the continent!”).

What do you mean difficult? Are you banning mitigation? In that case, people will just not take epic spellcasting ever.


4. What to do about wildshape??? I'd rather not ban it outright, but maybe nerf it somehow, and at the same time give some other boon to make up for the nerf?

Wildshape by itself is not horrific. Druid would still be a powerful class without it. It's the combos that makes it crazy. And there's little point banning or nerfing wildshape if PaO is in the game.

[Murg]

Thank you for the advice, it gave me some ideas!


Oriental Adventurers is not particularly balanced, though often in the bad way. Psionics are no more broken than vancian casting.

I'm not too worried about Oriental Adventures, since it seems to be less powerful than "normal" D&D. I don't allow psionics as I'm not familiar with it and it would be one more kind of attack the bad guys would have to have some kind of defense against.



Craft feats exist, right? So...no. Also, rarity of items only makes power spreads wider, as this hurts casters less than melee.

I was thinking the costs of using the craft item feats would limit PCs from abusing it too much, but now that I think about it that's probably not enough.

So my options are to revert back to default, and have to deal with the unbalance that epic items bring.

Or...Maybe I could increase the cost of the craft item feats for permanent magic items, this would effectively limit them to NPCs and provide a reason why permanent magic items are so rare. But you are correct to point out that rarity of magic items hurts casters less, and this would still be a problem unless as DM I awarded more non-caster magic items, but then I'd have to come up with a reason for the lack of caster-based magic items? Maybe many of the caster-based magic items were destroyed as part of a magical backlash when Mystra (goddess of magic) was killed during the Time of Troubles?



And, this does not make balance a thing. I can gleefully take any of the most broken caster classes this way, and not worry. What, I have to take all ten levels of incantatrix? And go into epic incantatrix? I'll manage to get by, I suppose. (/sarcasm)

Melees need dips. Oddball, fluffy concepts need dips. Break the game builds don't.

But aside from outright banning incantatrix how can I prevent game breaking builds? Sure the DM has final say on any character, but many builds may not be obviously broken at first...and retroactively banning a build is not ideal. Preventing excessive dips prevents at least one method of class-combo exploitation --> players can still take that one level of mindbender, they just have to realize they've only got 4 classes total.




I don't see how this makes things more balanced at all.


The fast XP-gain was primarily to make up for the lack of permanent magic items. For an adventure that said "this is for a party of four 8th level characters" I'd probably run it for my PCs when they were at 10th level because they would be under-equipped compared to what an 8th level party would be expected to have.



And, other 9th level spells exist, right? Like wish? And genesis?


Genesis would be difficult to cast as the PCs would have to find some way of getting on the ethereal plane.

Was thinking of banning wish too, but I was hoping the cost for casting it would be enough of a deterrent to save it for emergencies. But in a fast XP-gain campaign maybe not...



So, you mean, no teleport or planar traveling spells at all, right? This doesn't strictly stop planar travelling, it just makes it a bit more difficult.


My aim is to stop planar traveling short of using epic level magic. It seems to be the only way to prevent the PCs from popping into the BBEG's throne room and zapping him.



What do you mean difficult? Are you banning mitigation? In that case, people will just not take epic spellcasting ever.


I was thinking of making it difficult to acquire the seeds used to create epic spells -- I'd make the PCs have to quest for them -- so epic spells would not be available right away once the PCs reached epic levels.



Wildshape by itself is not horrific. Druid would still be a powerful class without it. It's the combos that makes it crazy. And there's little point banning or nerfing wildshape if PaO is in the game.

I'd rather not ban PaO either, but I've gotta do something about these combos.

The last campaign I ran didn't even make it to epic levels, yet the PCs were still strong enough the do the teleport-into-the-BBEG's-lair-and-kill-him thing. I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve me rewriting the Player's Handbook, lol!

[Seerow]

I'm not too worried about Oriental Adventures, since it seems to be less powerful than "normal" D&D. I don't allow psionics as I'm not familiar with it and it would be one more kind of attack the bad guys would have to have some kind of defense against.


Magical Defenses and Psionic defenses are one in the same. Unless you for some stupid reason decide to use the Psionics is Different optional rule.



The last campaign I ran didn't even make it to epic levels, yet the PCs were still strong enough the do the teleport-into-the-BBEG's-lair-and-kill-him thing. I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve me rewriting the Player's Handbook, lol!


The solution is to not play epic. Seriously not a single one of your house rules actually fixes anything, except making Epic Spellcasting harder (but in a completely undefined way, so really hard to even qualify that as a houserule). You can either have a gentleman's agreement with the players to not try to completely destroy the game, or play lower levels when characters have options that can be accounted for and planned around. Trying to actually fix epic levels would take essentially rewriting the player's handbook, and the ELH, and MM besides. And doing that requires a greater degree of system mastery than your houserules indicate you possess.

[Shpadoinkle]

The last campaign I ran didn't even make it to epic levels, yet the PCs were still strong enough the do the teleport-into-the-BBEG's-lair-and-kill-him thing. I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve me rewriting the Player's Handbook, lol!

If you have a problem with this kind of play then standard D&D, whether you get into epic or not, is simply not the kind of game you're looking for.

"Balancing Epic" is essentially impossible. Banning epic spellcasting doesn't really fix anything, casters can still make melee, monsters, and anything else this isn't a full caster grab its socks and scream uncle until it's hoarse.

My suggestion would be to either play E6 (or E8 or E10 if you don't want to stop at level 6) or simply find a different system.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm not too worried about Oriental Adventures, since it seems to be less powerful than "normal" D&D. I don't allow psionics as I'm not familiar with it and it would be one more kind of attack the bad guys would have to have some kind of defense against.

Psionic-magic transparency is the standard rule. Psionics aren't different.

[Medic!]

Call me crazy, but epic levels exist for the sole purpose of breaking games. It's like the chewy caramel center you get as a reward for eating all those damned peanuts. I'd say let 'em go nuts. *shrug*

Trying to balance epic levels to the same standard as lower or mid levels is like trying to keep a bulldozer in your sandbox.

[Jeraa]

A huge step toward balancing epic play is to remove the current epic spellcasting rules, though that still won't change how powerful casters can be compared to non-casters. That happens pre-epic.

Teleport can somewhat be fixed by making it less accurate. Make all teleports send you to someplace close to your destination instead of the exact location. Say, 1% of the total distance travelled. So teleporting 100 miles will place you somewhere within 1 mile of your target. Teleporting 1000 miles places you somewhere within 10 miles. And either get rid of Greater Teleport completely, or just apply the same 1% inaccuracy as Teleport.

Short range teleports aren't meaningfully affected (teleporting only a mile means you appear somewhere within 50 feet of your target).

With this change, Teleport and Greater Teleport are still useful for getting you close to your target, but you will still have to walk their normally once you get close.

[Seerow]

A huge step toward balancing epic play is to remove the current epic spellcasting rules.

Teleport can somewhat be fixed by making it less accurate. Make all teleports send you to someplace close to your destination instead of the exact location. Say, 1% of the total distance travelled. So teleporting 100 miles will place you somewhere within 1 mile of your target. Teleporting 1000 miles places you somewhere within 10 miles. And either get rid of Greater Teleport completely, or just apply the same 1% inaccuracy as Teleport.

Short range teleports aren't meaningfully affected (teleporting only a mile means you appear somewhere within 50 feet of your target).

With this change, Teleport and Greater Teleport are still useful for getting you close to your target, but you will still have to walk their normally once you get close.

What's to stop you from teleporting again?

I mean, say we track down someone 12,000 miles (almost exactly across the world from you) away. I teleport once, I am now within 120 miles of the target. Teleport again, I'm now within 1.2 miles. Teleport a third time, and I'm within a spitting distance.

Sure it's more resource intensive, but we're talking about epic levels, where 5th level spell slots can be thrown around like candy.

[Jeraa]

I never said it was a perfect fix, especially for epic levels. Those are already so messed up totally balancing them is next to impossible. But that change will help pre-epic (and somewhat help with epic - you do have to prepare multiple teleport spells), where 5th levels spells can't be "thrown around like candy."

[CTrees]

Have odd planar traits making divination much more difficult, or make scrying protection/detection much more common for well prepared antagonists. Scry'n'Die becomes less viable.

"Unusual Planar traits" could also be used to block teleporting (or give it a high likelihood of Bad Stuff) a/o time manipulation (Time Stop and similar). These seem to be your biggest concerns. Maybe the plane is ruled by an insane, corrupted Inevitable of extreme power (could lead to more strictures against transmutation in general, as well)? Actually, that could be a fun end boss for an epic campaign...

Also... if you're *really* worried about the game being broken? Drop the ridiculous "4 classes max" clause (it doesn't penalized T1/T2, but it does hurt melee and more exotic builds) and simply ban the first two tiers, period. It's a blunt instrument, but it'd actually go a long way towards being a reasonable solution. Not sure how well that works in epic, though - the game is all about being broken at that level, and I'd normally say "just roll with it and see how insane an enemy set they can kill."

[Lucy Land]

The last campaign I ran didn't even make it to epic levels, yet the PCs were still strong enough the do the teleport-into-the-BBEG's-lair-and-kill-him thing. I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve me rewriting the Player's Handbook, lol!
You don't have to rewrite the PHB. But take it from me, epic levels are the chance for players to cut loose with their stuff, and the only way to keep the rules [remotely] balanced is to cut loose with your ban hammer.

Scry magic? Long range teleports? Polymorph? Miracle, wish, Mord's Disjuction? Epic spellcasting? Banned, banned, banned, banned, and banned! Plot device spells don't need rules. Wild shape? Banned! Let druids use the PHB2 variant instead. Metamagic reducers, whether from PrCs or feats? Banned!

If you don't want PCs weighed down with magical trinkets, ban item creation and magic marts! You're going to need some kind of innate enhancement bonus system, because more XP does NOT make up for less bling.

When in doubt, come here for advice. When still in doubt, ban it!

If you really can't bring yourself to whip out the ban hammer, I'll second Shpadoinkle's suggestion to find another system.

[Murg]

Also... if you're *really* worried about the game being broken? Drop the ridiculous "4 classes max" clause (it doesn't penalized T1/T2, but it does hurt melee and more exotic builds) and simply ban the first two tiers, period. It's a blunt instrument, but it'd actually go a long way towards being a reasonable solution. Not sure how well that works in epic, though - the game is all about being broken at that level, and I'd normally say "just roll with it and see how insane an enemy set they can kill."

That sounds like a good and simple solution.

I'll drop the cap on classes and make tier 1 for NPCs only. XP gain will be normal. Things will still eventually get unbalanced but it'll take longer and when it happens I'll just have to deal with it.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Scry magic? Long range teleports? Polymorph? Miracle, wish, Mord's Disjuction? Epic spellcasting? Banned, banned, banned, banned, and banned! Plot device spells don't need rules. Wild shape? Banned! Let druids use the PHB2 variant instead. Metamagic reducers, whether from PrCs or feats? Banned!
Why even play epic if you will ban everything that's cool about it? I mean, all this things are available pre-epic, so why should they be banned from an epic game? If you think that you won't be able to deal with such high gameplay then don't do it, because otherwise there's no point.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why even play epic if you will ban everything that's cool about it? I mean, all this things are available pre-epic, so why should they be banned from an epic game? If you think that you won't be able to deal with such high gameplay then don't do it, because otherwise there's no point.

...I don't think that poster was talking about only epic.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

...I don't think that poster was talking about only epic.
Epic, high level, same thing. What's the point in playing when you ban the hell out of it? Play E6 or something...

[Sith_Happens]

The last campaign I ran didn't even make it to epic levels, yet the PCs were still strong enough the do the teleport-into-the-BBEG's-lair-and-kill-him thing. I'm trying to come up with a solution that doesn't involve me rewriting the Player's Handbook, lol!

Instead of changing large swaths of the game rules in an attempt to prevent this, have you ever thought about just giving your villains some of the many means of preventing it that already exist?

They want to scry on the BBEG? Mind Blank if you want it to straight up not work, or Detect Scrying + False Vision if you want to mess with your players. They want to use an epic spell to scry on the BBEG? Epic versions of the above spells.

They've located the BBEG and want to teleport straight to him? Greater Anticipate Teleportation (Spell Compendium) + Time Stop. Takes the "die" part of "scry-and-die" and turns it back on the players. As in, "Your spell takes you to the precise location you designated. Which is now inside of both a Prismatic Sphere and a Reverse Gravity spell. Everyone make three Reflex saves, two Fortitude saves, and two Will saves."

Obviously, the above tactics are a bit trickier to pull off if the BBEG isn't a caster, but still entirely reasonable given Epic-sized piles of gold.

[Runestar]

1) You can't harm enemies in a timestop, so that spell is really only useful for buffing and summoning now.

2) Villains don't have to be passive. You have set it up so that when the PCs try the scry-and-die stunt, it sometimes work, and sometimes, it turns out to be a trap set out by the enemies, or the place is just plain warded, and they have to invade it the old fashioned way. May want to read up on undermountain to get some ideas.

3) Waterdeep has Halaster's Teleport Cage, a 9th lv spell which when cast in an area, really screws around with attempts to teleport in or out of that area by diverting you to another area. You can repeatedly cast said spell to blanket an entire area. In fact, the entire Undermountain is under the effect of said spell! :smallamused:

4) I am not familiar with mythals (LEoF), but my understanding is that they are essentially city-wide magical effects, so you could use them to ward an entire area against divination and other spells you find troublesome dealing with.

5) I will probably just let wildshape stay. It is really the least of your problems, considering druids too can cast shapechange? :smalltongue:

[Lucy Land]

...I don't think that poster was talking about only epic.
Word.


Epic, high level, same thing. What's the point in playing when you ban the hell out of it? Play E6 or something...
I assure you, there's a big difference between banning a few of the game's most problematic tricks, and banning 7/10 of the game.

[Yahzi]

teleport to villain's inner sanctum
Forbiddance. It's relatively cheap, and it lasts forever. There's probably tons of old spells lying around, completely forgotten. Isn't your BBEG smart enough to build his fortress in the middle of an ancient magical zone?


3. In this version of Forgotten Realms permanent magic items are extremely rare, but limited use items like potions, wands and scrolls can still be bought in major cities.
You did this exactly backwards. It's wands and scrolls that break the game, by removing all limits from casters. It's permanent items that allow melee types a chance to keep up. Also, most of the broken stuff are spells, not items.

Try it the other way, where wands and scrolls don't exist, but other things do.

[Icestorm245]

I've only been in one epic level campaign myself, and even then, my group and I are -very- bad at exploiting rules and optimizing characters (one of the reasons I'm on this forum is to learn how to better myself and my group as a whole). But as for teleporting in and killing the bad guy dead, isn't that detered easily? Just have the guy they think they're killing a clone of the real guy, and when the PCs think they won, pop out the real bad guy. The players will be significantly weakend since they used most of their best spells on the clone. Or have a cloister effect that prevents teleportation so they need to go in the old fashioned way.

[Optimator]

My group plays in level 21-30 all the time. One big rule is no epic spell casting. We use Improved Spell Capacity and create homebrewed level 10, 11, 12 etc spells. Everything else works okay as long as the DM is competent--creating appropriate challenges is the key.