"Purist" Game-breaking?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, I'm in an interesting situation. Not one that I necessarily need an answer to, because I don't generally touch 3.5. It concerns a friend of mine who's convinced he's the hottest optimizer since sliced bread, or something like that. He was showing off some wizard shenanagins with Twinspell and Metamagic that made for a massively big zone of damage capable of wiping out armies. We're talking about a total of at least 100k damage, albeit spread out over a wide area. Okay, cool.

I proceeded to point out that there was actually a lot worse you could do in terms of breaking the game and optimization, and referred him to Pun-pun.

He rather subtly snobbed Pun-pun, because of its reliance on either items (the faster ascension) or heavy multiclassing. He proclaimed his own optimization as better (well, heavily implied, but tomayto tomahto) because it didn't rely on "items, multiclassing, or prestige classes".

So, here comes my question. I'm a bit bugged by his attitude, and I'm also not very educated in 3.5's specific game-breaking combinations. Can any of you enlighten me as to worse game-breaking in 3.5 that has conditions to satisfy an "optimizing purist aka snob"? (i.e., no magic items needed, no multiclassing or prestige classes needed)

The biggest requirement is that it be fulfillable by a randomly rolled character. That was the biggest gripe he had.

[tyckspoon]

It's still Pun-Pun. Fundamentally, you can make him with any ability that allows you to use an (Su) ability of a creature when you shapechange. The multiclasses/Wish-for-item abuses were just results of refinements to see just how quickly that ascension could be done, but a straight class Wizard or Psion with Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer gets there too.


The biggest requirement is that it be fulfillable by a randomly rolled character

I'm not even sure what this means. Just.. randomly rolled stats? Ok? That's never stopped a build, especially because you can arbitrarily 'roll' until you have the stats you want anyway..

Edit:
If you need an example:
Pun Pun in 2 books (1 book, but you need Serpent Kingdoms for the Sarrukh description.)
You are using Expanded Psionics Handbook. That's it.
Psion (Egoist) 12.
Required feats:
Overchannel, Metamorphic Transfer, Psicrystal Affinity.
Required Power Known: Metamorphosis (this is why you're an Egoist. If you are willing to spend another feat for Expanded Knowledge you can do it with any Psion specialization.)

Metamorph yourself into a Sarrukh and your Psicrystal into a Scaled One as defined in Serpent Kingdoms. Manipulate Form on your Psicrystal to give it Manipulate Form. Turn yourself into something other than a Sarrukh. Have your Psicrystal give you Manipulate Form. Congratulations, you are now Pun-Pun.

[Xtomjames]

If we're talking purist I can break the game far worse than he can with a Warlock at level 12 with maxed ranks in use magic item Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge Religion.

If we use the PP system in D&D as supplied via Unearthed Arcana I can do 50,000 points of pure force damage to 20 targets so long as they're with in range just by playing a wizard.

Heck I don't need to do the damage, I can have others do it for me. Playing a Bard with the Leadership feat (and related feats) I can utterly control my own army of spell casters to go and destroy things.

Hell, in one game I played a Demigod of Mask and I killed Salune at level 9.

In short his bragging is piddly, at best.

[Ernir]

He rather subtly snobbed Pun-pun, because of its reliance on either items (the faster ascension) or heavy multiclassing. He proclaimed his own optimization as better (well, heavily implied, but tomayto tomahto) because it didn't rely on "items, multiclassing, or prestige classes".

Those are just his arbitrary restrictions. They aren't better, more right, or fancier than any others.

Him being convinced that he's "the hottest optimizer since sliced bread" has nothing to do with him being a competent optimizer, and everything to do with him being full of himself. And that's not going to change no matter how many optimized builds you show him.

[MukkTB]

When you play with yourself you can circlejerk as much as you want. Yeah, optimizing can be fun. But only what you can do when you sit around in a group and actually play has much effect.

In the EVE gaming culture we refer to the people who just play with theories as EFT warriors. Its when they actually start doing something interesting on the field that we take notice.

Pun-Pun is the end of the circle jerk. Only really good for pointing where the cirlce jerk leads to when someone gets started on it. Hes backed up by stupid mechanics. He doesn't sound that fun to play or play with except if you want to make a quick run where you can say "We successfully launched Pun-Pun. Game over man, game over." The roleplaying aspect behind Pun-Pun is pretty much non existent.

Anyone who pushes back the goal line by declaring that Pun -Pun doesn't work within his homebrew rules is just furthering his own circlejerk. Pun-Pun works by RAW I'm pretty sure. DM's shouldn't allow Pun-Pun in a serious game but there are a lot of things wrong in RAW anyway.

And then there's the omnimancer and a couple other 2cd tier game breakers.

Ignore people who are living in a fantasy world population 1. Ignore what happens in the fantasy world population 1. If you really want to show this guy down then grab a couple OP optimizations off the board and sit down to some 3.5 with him. You, him, and a DM. Fantasy world population 3+, one thats built on a group consensus.

TLDR: Don't worry about what he says his theoretical builds can do unless he starts outperforming you at the table.

[Urpriest]

As has been pointed out, Pun-Pun can be done without multiclassing or item reliance. But as optimization is about picking the right classes, refusing to multiclass makes you worse at optimization, not better.

Anyway, you can also do worse stuff as a pure Wizard. Genesis+Astral Projection+Chain Gating Titans. Done.

[herrhauptmann]

Hit him with the D2 crusader. No multiclassing needed.

Or an ubercharger. Really only needs barbarian. But you can do it faster with feats from fighter as well (and better with a smoking+valorous weapon). That's not excessive multiclassing, so he probably won't whine too badly.

His objection about items? Lame. Wealth by level is a big part of a character, particularly at later levels. Ignoring items means he's ignoring a noticeable part of the game.
It's a big part of optimizing. A DMM:Persist/Heighten Cleric is merely awesome without items. With the right items, it becomes very awesome. Just gotta buy a dozen nightsticks.


He's proud of being able to wipe out armies? With a wizard?
Given that most D&D armies are made out of commoners and warriors under level 3, that's not much to brag about. An average of 15 points of damage per square (person) would be enough to kill most of the soldiers within the range of effect.
After that, it's just a matter of expanding your AoE spell to include a big part of the army, and ensuring that even on a successful save, they take enough damage to die. (A 10d6 fireball is 35 damage average, 17.5 on a successful save)


Twinspell breaks action economy a little, instead of casting one fireball per turn, on your first turn you cast one fireball. On your second turn, you cast your second fireball, and your twinned fireball from round 1 goes off. 3 fireballs in 2 rounds. Round 3? You cast another fireball, and if your fireball from round 2 was also twinned, that gets recast. Now five fireballs in 3 rounds.

How about he tries a real challenge? See if he can make a character that can keep the Tarrasque at -10 HP long enough to wish it to death. (Not that it matters, I could've sworn wish/miracle took a few rounds to cast)
Or better yet, kill a balor/pit fiend without also dying.
And he's gotta do that without resorting to the internet for help. (I can do the tarrasque or balor challenge, but not without the help of the internet. Even if I do have access to all the necessary books/spells.)

By the way, if he's such a snob about items/PrC/multiclassing, I think 3.5/PF is the wrong game for him. Since the ruleset was made from the beginning to use all of those. While optimization takes that to 11.

[Coidzor]

He proclaimed his own optimization as better (well, heavily implied, but tomayto tomahto) because it didn't rely on "items, multiclassing, or prestige classes".

Ok, so your friend has some arbitrary fetishes, if they bug you, force him to come up with a real answer rather than trying to forcefeed you BS. Though, if he's that keen on forcefeeding you BS, the title friend is a bit suspect.


So, here comes my question. I'm a bit bugged by his attitude, and I'm also not very educated in 3.5's specific game-breaking combinations. Can any of you enlighten me as to worse game-breaking in 3.5 that has conditions to satisfy an "optimizing purist aka snob"? (i.e., no magic items needed, no multiclassing or prestige classes needed)

No, the only things that satisfy them are measures that involve not kowtowing to them or playing their game. Traditionally these involve a wet noodle.

[Tengu_temp]

Wasn't the original Pun-Pun build a level 13 elven wizard? Also, insert comments on the friend's arrogance here.

[Cog]

Hit him with the D2 crusader. No multiclassing needed.
The d2 Crusader actually does require either multiclassing or a divine spellcasting ally, so no dice on that one.

[herrhauptmann]

The d2 Crusader actually does require either multiclassing or a divine spellcasting ally, so no dice on that one.

Isn't the primary part of it being a really small race that has a weapon of 1d2 damage? Then throw in a crusader stance?
Rereads d2 crusader...
Bugger, forgot about the imbued healing part of it.
Anyway, the rest of my post stands. Though since D&D is a team game, and even in older versions, you'd get a form of Leadership after a few levels... So a buddy using Imbued Healing wouldn't be out of the ordinary...

[Flickerdart]

Wasn't the original Pun-Pun build a level 13 elven wizard? Also, insert comments on the friend's arrogance here.
Psion, I think (for Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer) of whatever ML that Sarrukhs have HD. Uses only two books (XPH and Serpent Kingdoms).

[Urpriest]

Psion, I think (for Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer) of whatever ML that Sarrukhs have HD. Uses only two books (XPH and Serpent Kingdoms).

The Wizard version is higher level and uses Shapechange, IIRC.

[The_Snark]

Psion, I think (for Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer) of whatever ML that Sarrukhs have HD. Uses only two books (XPH and Serpent Kingdoms).

The original might have been a wizard using Polymorph and Assume Supernatural Ability (a feat from Savage Species, similar to Metamorphic Transfer). I'm not actually sure, but from what I know of Pun-Pun I think it'd work.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Heh, thanks for the quick and overwhelming response! The main reason I'm curious is that I think it's a far more impressive feat to blow past his expectations whilst remaining within the arbitrary guidelines that he set.

Yeah, from my brief experience with 3.5, multiclassing and items and prestige classes are a major part of optimizing in the game. Well aware of that, and I could probably try to argue that.

I think it'd be more effective to try another route...which it looks like there are several. Thanks for the swift assistance! Now to scribe this down in my memory.

Other clarifier, I don't actually play with him...3.5 isn't really my game, and I dislike his take on playing D&D, period. So it's not really a matter of him outpowering me at the table. It's just nice to have something to show him, though.

[JaronK]

Hell, the Locate City Bomb does way more damage than you listed and can be done with a straight class no items Wizard. A range of 220 miles is trivially easy. And the total damage can get well over 100k per enemy, for the ones really close to you. Someone right next to the epicenter would take 242400d6+2 damage, without any caster level bumps other than the required Arcane Thesis (Locate City).

JaronK

[kardar233]

The original might have been a wizard using Polymorph and Assume Supernatural Ability (a feat from Savage Species, similar to Metamorphic Transfer). I'm not actually sure, but from what I know of Pun-Pun I think it'd work.

I believe the original Pun-Pun used Assume Supernatural ability on a Divine Minion/MoMF multiclass to Wildshape into Sarrukh at about level 5.

[Darthteej]

Hell, the Locate City Bomb does way more damage than you listed and can be done with a straight class no items Wizard. A range of 220 miles is trivially easy. And the total damage can get well over 100k per enemy, for the ones really close to you. Someone right next to the epicenter would take 242400d6+2 damage, without any caster level bumps other than the required Arcane Thesis (Locate City).

JaronK

I believe the quote from TV Tropes works best here:

A careful study of the various feats involve show this is not a gamebreaker, it is simply cheating."

Fell Drain wightocalypse, on the other hand, works just fine.

[JaronK]

I believe the quote from TV Tropes works best here:

A careful study of the various feats involve show this is not a gamebreaker, it is simply cheating."

It actually works fine, but as one of the standard tricks that is far too powerful and is complex, people always try to prove it can't work, and confirmation bias lets them believe they're right (and stop there). It's like Pun Pun that way.

You just have to realize that the "circle" referred to means it detects anything that would be found within any circle centered on the caster with a radius of 10 miles/CL (meaning the actual spell area is a sphere). This is made obvious by the reference to cities found underground via the spell (which, where it to actually have an area of a circle, would be impossible to find).

JaronK

[Kurald Galain]

He rather subtly snobbed Pun-pun, because of its reliance on either items (the faster ascension) or heavy multiclassing. He proclaimed his own optimization as better (well, heavily implied, but tomayto tomahto) because it didn't rely on "items, multiclassing, or prestige classes".
It strikes me that anybody who is putting up such arbitrary limitations is going to veto any build you show him on grounds of yet more arbitrary limitations. It sounds like classic scrub mentality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub). I wouldn't bother trying to convince this guy; if he likes to believe he's the Greatest Optimizer Ev4r, then why not let him?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

It strikes me that anybody who is putting up such arbitrary limitations is going to veto any build you show him on grounds of yet more arbitrary limitations. It sounds like classic scrub mentality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Scrub). I wouldn't bother trying to convince this guy; if he likes to believe he's the Greatest Optimizer Ev4r, then why not let him?
'Cause it will be fun to crush his ego?