Tactical Nuke

[Calanon]

Ok a player asked me this at my game today and i was left dumbfounded...

How does one make a Tactical Nuke for 3.5? I figured it would just be a Disintegrate spell that made sweet tender love with a few epic level spells... and i mean that kind of sweet tender love that makes her wanna brag about it to her friends... Yeah, you know what I'm talking about :smallwink:

Anyway so how would a Tactical Nuke play out in 3.5? any way i think of it i can only imagine a spell so powerful that it pretty much wipes a country off the map >_> and as a DM I would ban it faster than you can say "Can I prepare Celerity?"

[TheGeckoKing]

Er.......Enlarged Enhanced Intensified Widened Apocalypse From The Sky?

[Malimar]

Apocalypse from the Sky. 9th level corrupt spell from BoVD.

EDIT: ...swordsaged.

[Vespe Ratavo]

This reminds me of a Murphy's Rules I once read, about a game that did have rules for nuclear weapons. To paraphrase that game, "to simulate the use of strategic nuclear weapons, soak the map in lighter fluid and apply a flame." :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Locate City Bomb?

[King Atticus]

Probably talking about the Locate City Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138285)

edit: swordsaged but I've got a link :smallwink:

[faceroll]

Widened Maximized Empowered Energy Admixed Meteor Swarm would be a pretty good approximation of a tactical nuke.

[tyckspoon]

It's relatively easy to kill all the (weaker) creatures in an area- the Locate City bombs will do that, as will things like Storm of Vengeance or Apocalypse From The Sky. D&D's rules make it quite difficult to achieve the everything-is-gone level of destruction of a real nuke, tho; D&D buildings and objects are much more durable than real-world ones. Your best bet for that kind of destruction is usually weather-control spells; a Druid casting a Maximized Control Weather can force hail/rain/thunderstorms/tornados/hurricane winds over a 3-mile radius for 2 days straight, depending on what appropriate catastrophic weather for the season is.

[Runestar]

Epic spell using Apoc as base seed, then add in weather seed to make it a 2-mile radius and double the range (+2 each time?) :smalltongue:

[legomaster00156]

Shamelessly stolen from the TV Tropes CMoA page.


This Troper once had a high-level (16 or so) druid. Fun, of course, but in the run-up to our confrontation with the campaign's Big Bad, we were called upon to break a siege, in which we would have to fight an invasion force of goblinoids OVER A MILLION STRONG. Being a quite pillage-happy party, we had acquired over the course of our game numerous magical items- including about forty necklaces of fireball and a helm of brilliance. Fun enough on their own. Being a druid, I was fond of wild shaping, and had purchased a wilding clasp, which lets you retain your equipment in wild shape. My druid, upon hearing the task before the party, had only this to say: "Fetch me a catapult, and aim deep." I strapped on all forty necklaces of fireball, donned the helm of brilliance, and attached my wilding clasp- then had myself launched right into the middle of the goblinoid hordes. Quoth the DM: "So... you're in single-digit HP, stranded in the middle of millions of enemies, and you have probably one action left before they take it in turns to sodomize you with halberds. Any last words?" My response: "Wild Shape. Fire Elemental." Anyone who knows 3.5 can guess exactly how it went down, but for the rest of you, I'll spell it out: 200 Fireballs, 50 Prismatic Sprays, 100 Walls of Fire. This is the high-fantasy equivalent of A NUCLEAR STRIKE- and being made of fire, I was * immune* to all the damage I threw. It's well and truly gratifying to have a seasoned DM- and then make his jaw hit the table. To top it all off, that single shot caused the remnants of the million-strong siege army to "scatter like roaches".

[faceroll]

Tactical nukes have very low yields compared to other atomic weaponry, as they're intended to be used on the battlefield against opposing militaries.

What it it sounds like you're looking for is a strategic nuclear weapon which you use against enemy populaces and production facilities.

[ericgrau]

Low for a nuke is still pretty darn big.

[DeAnno]

How does one make a Tactical Nuke for 3.5?

In one campaign I was in, an Artificer actually built a nuclear weapon by using true creation to get U-235 and then teleporting a small sphere of it into a larger hollow sphere (creating a critical mass).

[nedz]

Shamelessly stolen from the TV Tropes CMoA page.
There is so much wrong with the example:-
200 fireballs - yes but all in the same 20' radius.
Where do the other spells come from ?
How does being a Fire Elemental make you immune to Prismatic Spray ?

[noparlpf]

Shamelessly stolen from the TV Tropes CMoA page.

This Troper once had a high-level (16 or so) druid. Fun, of course, but in the run-up to our confrontation with the campaign's Big Bad, we were called upon to break a siege, in which we would have to fight an invasion force of goblinoids OVER A MILLION STRONG. Being a quite pillage-happy party, we had acquired over the course of our game numerous magical items- including about forty necklaces of fireball and a helm of brilliance. Fun enough on their own. Being a druid, I was fond of wild shaping, and had purchased a wilding clasp, which lets you retain your equipment in wild shape. My druid, upon hearing the task before the party, had only this to say: "Fetch me a catapult, and aim deep." I strapped on all forty necklaces of fireball, donned the helm of brilliance, and attached my wilding clasp- then had myself launched right into the middle of the goblinoid hordes. Quoth the DM: "So... you're in single-digit HP, stranded in the middle of millions of enemies, and you have probably one action left before they take it in turns to sodomize you with halberds. Any last words?" My response: "Wild Shape. Fire Elemental." Anyone who knows 3.5 can guess exactly how it went down, but for the rest of you, I'll spell it out: 200 Fireballs, 50 Prismatic Sprays, 100 Walls of Fire. This is the high-fantasy equivalent of A NUCLEAR STRIKE- and being made of fire, I was * immune* to all the damage I threw. It's well and truly gratifying to have a seasoned DM- and then make his jaw hit the table. To top it all off, that single shot caused the remnants of the million-strong siege army to "scatter like roaches".

The problem there is that it takes a lot more than a single Wilding Clasp for that. And some of those numbers are a bit off...10 Prismatic Sprays, 20 Walls of Fire, 30 Fireballs, and then for the necklaces the number varies. And all of the Fireballs would go off right at your location, affecting only the goblins within 20' of you. And even that is only assuming the items fail their saves.

[NNescio]

The problem there is that it takes a lot more than a single Wilding Clasp for that. And some of those numbers are a bit off...10 Prismatic Sprays, 20 Walls of Fire, 30 Fireballs, and then for the necklaces the number varies. And all of the Fireballs would go off right at your location, affecting only the goblins within 20' of you. And even that is only assuming the items fail their saves.

Including the Walls of Fire, that would (potentially, due to randomness) affect targets in a radius of 100 ft, 'though I seriously doubt that any significant bulk of the 1-million strong goblin army can be fitted within an area of less than 400 5x5 squares.

Also, changing into a Fire Elemental will not technically set off a Necklace of Fireballs. The character has to fail a save against a magical fire attack first (before the items' saving throws are even taken into account), and the Druid does not have any further actions to activate a bead after Wildshaping. Furthermore, the Helm of Brilliance will not detonate at all, as its gems will only explode after the user has actually taken damage from magical fire.

(And after a failed Will Save, but that part can be failed deliberately.)

[noparlpf]

I think the helm might go off if it takes fire damage itself, but I'm not sure. Does being in contact with a fire elemental do "magical fire damage"?

[Lateral]

Locate City Bomb?


Probably talking about the Locate City Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138285)

Not if you're trying to blow stuff up. The version that uses Explosive Spell to blow things to the edge of the radius doesn't work; since it's a circle, not a sphere, it bumps them up 0 feet, dealing 0d6 damage. The version with Fell Drain works, but it doesn't blow stuff up, it just causes the apocalypse.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not only that, but it's expensive as hell. I mean, it's what, 125,000? For that price, I'd just get a Third Eye: Conceal and play guerrilla tactics, sniping officers and noncoms from the shadows until they become so demoralized they give up and leave.

[King Atticus]

Not if you're trying to blow stuff up. The version that uses Explosive Spell to blow things to the edge of the radius doesn't work; since it's a circle, not a sphere, it bumps them up 0 feet, dealing 0d6 damage. The version with Fell Drain works, but it doesn't blow stuff up, it just causes the apocalypse.

Didn't say it would work...just that it was probably what he was thinking of. :smallwink:

[noparlpf]

The version with Fell Drain works, but it doesn't blow stuff up, it just causes the apocalypse.

Now, I really want to use negative levels offensively. But I don't want to deal with having to escape the Wightocalypse every time I win an encounter. Isn't there a spell that stops creatures from being raised as undead? 'Cause if not I just need to get the Cleric to pump his Turn Undead ability...
Yeah, sorry for derailing the thread a little bit. But I think most of the good ideas for nukes or similar effects have already been mentioned.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Now, I really want to use negative levels offensively. But I don't want to deal with having to escape the Wightocalypse every time I win an encounter. Isn't there a spell that stops creatures from being raised as undead? 'Cause if not I just need to get the Cleric to pump his Turn Undead ability...
Yeah, sorry for derailing the thread a little bit. But I think most of the good ideas for nukes or similar effects have already been mentioned.

Consecrate and Hallow, I believe...

[Cipher Stars]

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tactical_Nuke_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)

[Calanon]

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tactical_Nuke_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)

****ing serious? O_O

[tyckspoon]

****ing serious? O_O

Yes, fear the mighty power of a blank wiki page. :smallamused:

[Calanon]

Yes, fear the mighty power of a blank wiki page. :smallamused:

just search it on the site again and it comes up :smalltongue:
you silly cactuar...

[Demon of Death]

Yes, fear the mighty power of a blank wiki page. :smallamused:

It's the last parenthese at the end of the link
Also, I know I've been swordsage'd.

[tyckspoon]

just search it on the site again and it comes up :smalltongue:
you silly cactuar...

Eh. It's Epic anyway, and you see all those 'ad-hoc' in there? That's Epic Spell code for 'make stuff up and hope your DM agrees with it.'

[_Zoot_]

Tactical nukes have very low yields compared to other atomic weaponry, as they're intended to be used on the battlefield against opposing militaries.

What it it sounds like you're looking for is a strategic nuclear weapon which you use against enemy populaces and production facilities.

I'm so glad that you said this, I was about to go nuts. :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tactical_Nuke_(3.5e_Epic_Spell)

Link's broken. The last character is outside of the URL tags.

[Calanon]

Eh. It's Epic anyway, and you see all those 'ad-hoc' in there? That's Epic Spell code for 'make stuff up and hope your DM agrees with it.'

Safe Time: OH CRAP! Time Duplicate!

Time Duplicate: Yeah?

Safe Time: He's cracked our code!

Time Duplicate: HOLY ****! WERE SCREWED! Now no DM will allow us!

Me: ...I still love you :smallsmile:

Both: NOBODY CARES!

Me :cry:

Eclipes: Trollface.jpeg

[SaintRidley]

Eh. It's Epic anyway, and you see all those 'ad-hoc' in there? That's Epic Spell code for 'make stuff up and hope your DM agrees with it.'


It's also dnd wiki, the home of so much of the world's stupidest and most poorly thought out homebrew.

[TheJake]

Locate City Bomb?

Yep. Winner. Nothing I've seen beats the Locate City Bomb. Nothing short of Pun-Pun that is.

- J.

[DefKab]

Didn't Bigby make that?

Bigby's Tactical Nuke?

Seems up his alley...

[Mr.Bookworm]

Apocalypse From the Sky is a strategic nuke, given that a 17th level caster using it is dealing 10d6 sonic to everything within 170 miles.

And given that you have to sacrifice an artifact to use it, it is pretty squarely in the plot device level.

Maybe something like this?

Split the Heavens
Evocation [Fire, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 5 rounds
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: One 1000-ft.-radius circle; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No

When you cast this spell, two motes of light appear in the designated space, slowly orbiting each other before accelerating impossibly fast and then spiraling inwards to slam into the other mote. They violently explode when they collide in a flash of light and sound that can be seen and heard for dozens of miles.

Everything within 500 ft. of the explosion takes damage, as indicated on the following table. The Reflex save DC for half damage is also increased by the amount indicated on the table.

{table=head]Distance | Damage | Reflex DC

10 ft. or less | 100d6 fire and 100d6 sonic | +50

50 ft. or less | 50d6 fire and 50d6 sonic | +35

100 ft. or less | 30d6 fire and 30d6 sonic | +20

200 ft. or less | 20d6 fire and 20d6 sonic | +10

300 ft. or less | 10d6 fire and 10d6 sonic | +5

400 ft. or less | 5d6 fire and 5d6 sonic | +0

500 ft. or less | 1d6 fire and 1d6 sonic | +0

[/table]

Everything within the radius, even if they did not take damage, must make a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. If they fail this save, they must make another one at the same DC 24-hours later. If they fail again, they take another 1d6 points of Constitution damage. This continues until they die or they succeed on the Fortitude save.

Material component: A piece of cobalt.

---

Not strictly accurate, but it makes a big boom.

[2xMachina]

Not if you're trying to blow stuff up. The version that uses Explosive Spell to blow things to the edge of the radius doesn't work; since it's a circle, not a sphere, it bumps them up 0 feet, dealing 0d6 damage. The version with Fell Drain works, but it doesn't blow stuff up, it just causes the apocalypse.

Locate City having a circle makes it unworkable. Even the given examples only works if it's a cylinder or something.

[TurtleKing]

@Mr. Bookworm: You have a discrepiency with you ranges. You list the area as 1000ft radius which is 2000ft diameter. Yet on the table and text you put the damage only going out to 500ft. Another thing is with a range of long the soonest you could get the spell would result in 1080ft has the max range. Based on that you would likely be having it go off pretty much in your face.

I have one to add that is while smaller adds the option to be metamagic'd. Channeled Sonic Blast if cast for two full rounds hits everything in a 60ft radius spread for upto 10d10 sonic damage and permanently deafens. Since it is a Bard 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 5 you can apply some metamagic to really have some fun, but you can not increase the damage dice beyond 10. Also looking back at who can get it Bards can also nuke with this option. Matter of fact that brings up a curious thing of a Bard might be able to pair this with the spell Amplify to increase the range if that can work.

[noparlpf]

What book is Locate City from anyway?

[2xMachina]

Races of Destiny on page 166

If it's a circle, how does it detect the underground city it says it could (if it were the one with the shortest route)?

[noparlpf]

True, it says "isn't likely to", not "won't". What if he can turn into an earth elemental? Then it doesn't matter that it's through earth and according to that text he should locate that underground city. Even though it's a "circle". I'd say it's a reasonable houserule to assume it means "sphere". Was there any errata for Races of Destiny?

[CTrees]

That's my thing with the Locate City circle v. sphere argument - if you're at sea level, and there's a city up on a hill/mountain/plateau, and LC activates in a circle around you, the city will not be located. Hell, if the city is ten feet above sea level, the spell will be useless. Further, D&D has plenty of examples of cities flying in the air, underground, underwater, etc. Is Locate City really intended to be incapable of locating any of these? That seems ridiculous, especially if the example references finding an underground city (afb at the moment).

[Eldariel]

What kind of a kiloton yield are you looking at in the nuke? Getting the proper radius would probably be the biggest problem; D&D as a rule does rather small effects outside weather effects such as Control Winds. Epic handily solves that tho.

[Chess435]

Apocalypse From the Sky is a strategic nuke, given that a 17th level caster using it is dealing 10d6 sonic to everything within 170 miles.

And given that you have to sacrifice an artifact to use it, it is pretty squarely in the plot device level.

Maybe something like this?

Split the Heavens
Evocation [Fire, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 5 rounds
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: One 1000-ft.-radius circle; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No

When you cast this spell, two motes of light appear in the designated space, slowly orbiting each other before accelerating impossibly fast and then spiraling inwards to slam into the other mote. They violently explode when they collide in a flash of light and sound that can be seen and heard for dozens of miles.

Everything within 500 ft. of the explosion takes damage, as indicated on the following table. The Reflex save DC for half damage is also increased by the amount indicated on the table.

{table=head]Distance | Damage | Reflex DC

10 ft. or less | 100d6 fire and 100d6 sonic | +50

50 ft. or less | 50d6 fire and 50d6 sonic | +35

100 ft. or less | 30d6 fire and 30d6 sonic | +20

200 ft. or less | 20d6 fire and 20d6 sonic | +10

300 ft. or less | 10d6 fire and 10d6 sonic | +5

400 ft. or less | 5d6 fire and 5d6 sonic | +0

500 ft. or less | 1d6 fire and 1d6 sonic | +0

[/table]

Everything within the radius, even if they did not take damage, must make a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. If they fail this save, they must make another one at the same DC 24-hours later. If they fail again, they take another 1d6 points of Constitution damage. This continues until they die or they succeed on the Fortitude save.

Material component: A piece of cobalt.

---

Not strictly accurate, but it makes a big boom.

That is absurdly powerful, even for a 9th level spell.

[TurtleKing]

Don't remember if anyone has mentioned it yet that Frostburn has quite a few spells for hitting a large area.

[marcielle]

Locate city bomb. BUT. Instead of locate city, use wish. Because it says you can teleport anything anywhere...
"A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane"
...it technically has an effective range 'EVERYTHING IN THE PLANES'. You just shunted everything that failed its save to Xoriat, including all the gods that rolled a natural 1.

Note - the best way I've found of using this is with an Ultimate Magus. That way you dont have to sacrifice a ton of feats on metamagic reducers and can perform it THE SECOND you can cast 9th( note, you need to use practiced spellcaster trick to get levl 20 wiz casting by 20th level).

[ericgrau]

That is absurdly powerful, even for a 9th level spell.

With a 5 round casting time, it's fairly poor in combat. But all you have to do is cast it before you're noticed and then it's ridiculously, ya.

[Flickerdart]

Locate city bomb. BUT. Instead of locate city, use wish. Because it says you can teleport anything anywhere...
"A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane"
...it technically has an effective range 'EVERYTHING IN THE PLANES'. You just shunted everything that failed its save to Xoriat, including all the gods that rolled a natural 1.

Note - the best way I've found of using this is with an Ultimate Magus. That way you dont have to sacrifice a ton of feats on metamagic reducers and can perform it THE SECOND you can cast 9th( note, you need to use practiced spellcaster trick to get levl 20 wiz casting by 20th level).
Nope. That would be a targeted effect (with the targets being the creatures) rather than an area effect.

[marcielle]

Area of Effect being defined as the area a spell affects. Wish alters reality. Hence 'reality'(all planes but Xoriat and maybe the astral sea) is the area of effect.

Unless 'area of effect' is just a technical term that does not nescesarily need to mean the same thing as it's constituents. In which case...derp.

[Flickerdart]

Area of Effect being defined as the area a spell affects. Wish alters reality. Hence 'reality'(all planes but Xoriat and maybe the astral sea) is the area of effect.

Unless 'area of effect' is just a technical term that does not nescesarily need to mean the same thing as it's constituents. In which case...derp.
You're confusing area and range.

[marcielle]

No, I meant that the way I understand the spell is that you talk and reality itself is rewritten. You use the wish-teleport to shift from Material to say, the plane of Fire. Material is rewritten to NOT contain you and Fire is rewritten so it does. Hence Fire and Material planes are the all in the 'area'. Point is moot anyway since no DM who wouldn't just let you use aforementioned 'Split the Heavens' would let you do this.

[Zonugal]

Don't remember if anyone has mentioned it yet that Frostburn has quite a few spells for hitting a large area.

Oh yeah, I remember some high level spells being really good for this type of thing (just re-flavor the snow as ash, and you'll have a horrific spell-effect).

[Flickerdart]

No, I meant that the way I understand the spell is that you talk and reality itself is rewritten. You use the wish-teleport to shift from Material to say, the plane of Fire. Material is rewritten to NOT contain you and Fire is rewritten so it does. Hence Fire and Material planes are the all in the 'area'. Point is moot anyway since no DM who wouldn't just let you use aforementioned 'Split the Heavens' would let you do this.
It's a targeted effect; it has no area. By your reading, the target would be "one universe", which is still a target and not an area.

[dspeyer]

Two pages and no anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89) yet? Remember that you can easily shrink the one listed if you want to vaporize a smaller area.

[Arundel]

No, I meant that the way I understand the spell is that you talk and reality itself is rewritten. You use the wish-teleport to shift from Material to say, the plane of Fire. Material is rewritten to NOT contain you and Fire is rewritten so it does. Hence Fire and Material planes are the all in the 'area'. Point is moot anyway since no DM who wouldn't just let you use aforementioned 'Split the Heavens' would let you do this.

(Ignoring your issues with targeting) You're trying to rationalize the multiplanar nature of DnD into rational thought. Its not going to work. However, by your logic I think you could apply the same theory to planeshift. Or gate. Obviously not metaphysics as intended.

[Qwertystop]

No. Wish, used for teleporting, is targeted. It does not affect an area, it affects a target and teleports them.

Fireball (for example) is an area effect. It affects everything in an area.

Locate City was written as affecting an area (1 mile circle).

[Arundel]

Two pages and no anti-osmium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2013195&postcount=89) yet? Remember that you can easily shrink the one listed if you want to vaporize a smaller area.

Why do that when there are such less shady ways to do it?

[Jack_Simth]

Ok a player asked me this at my game today and i was left dumbfounded...

How does one make a Tactical Nuke for 3.5? I figured it would just be a Disintegrate spell that made sweet tender love with a few epic level spells... and i mean that kind of sweet tender love that makes her wanna brag about it to her friends... Yeah, you know what I'm talking about :smallwink:

Anyway so how would a Tactical Nuke play out in 3.5? any way i think of it i can only imagine a spell so powerful that it pretty much wipes a country off the map >_> and as a DM I would ban it faster than you can say "Can I prepare Celerity?"
There are a number of ways to do such things, depending on what you mean.

The Locate City Bomb has a couple of variations, but essentially becomes "reflex save and die" for everyone within a very large radius (OK, people with Evasion get to live). Alternate versions turn every 1 HD living critter in the range into Wights (or Zombies).

Wight Bomb: Locate City (Races of Destiny - 10 miles/level radius effect, 1st level Divination spell) + Snowcasting (Frostburn - gives a spell the cold descriptor) + Flash Frost (Frostburn - makes a cold spell deal 2 points of cold damage)+ Fell Drain (Libris Mortis - Living critter that takes damage also gains a negative level. Note that due to the way negative levels work, anything with 1 HD that gains a negative level dies immediately, and rises as a wight 24 hours later. Most things have 1 hit die.). Note that this leaves structures intact (unless the wights decide to wreck them).

Zombie Bomb: Locate City (Races of Destiny - 10 miles/level radius effect, 1st level Divination spell) + Snowcasting (Frostburn - gives a spell the cold descriptor) + Flash Frost (Frostburn - makes a cold spell deal 2 points of cold damage)+ Fell Drain (Libris Mortis - Living critter that takes damage also gains a negative level. Note that due to the way negative levels work, anything with 1 HD that gains a negative level dies immediately. Most things have 1 hit die) + Fell Animate (Libris Mortis: Any living creature slain by a spell with this metamagic rises immediately as a zombie). Note that this leaves structures intact (unless the zombies decide to wreck them). This is harder to do than the Wight bomb, but has the advantage that the zombies rise immediately; the wights have to wait a while.

Damage Bomb: Locate City (Races of Destiny - 10 miles/level radius effect, 1st level Divination spell) + Snowcasting (Frostburn - gives a spell the cold descriptor) + Flash Frost (Frostburn - makes a cold spell deal 2 points of cold damage) + Energy Substitution (Complete Arcane: make it an Electric spell) + Born of Three Thunders (Complete Arcane: Half sonic damage, have electric, adds a reflex and a fort save for different effects) + Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane: Anything caught in the area of your reflex save spell gets pushed to the edge, taking 1d6 damage per ten feet of movement). Edge is ten miles/level away from where you cast it. 5280 feet per mile. So that's 5280d6 damage per caster level (or 0d6, or 1d6, depending on funny interpretations that would render Locate City itself completely useless). Note that this leaves structures intact (bizarrely) unless the Evasion-equipped survivors decide to wreck them. This just kills everything outright (although there exists a metamagic feat in the Book of Exalted Deeds that makes it skip good-aligned critters).

Apocolypse from the Sky has already been mentioned. Does Locate City Bomb without the feat investment, but is very likely to render the caster dead. Note that this does serious damage to structures.

Major Creation and Antimatter (also critical masses of radioactives) has already been mentioned. Catch, of course, being that you need to bring real-world physics into a game of D&D to make it work. Note that this does serious damage to structures.

Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane) + Delayed Blast Fireball + Quintessance (Expanded Psionic Handbook): This one takes a lot of setup, one feat, and a cohort to manufacture Quintessance (or a few specific one-character builds, but eh). Put the bead from an Explosive Spell Delayed Blast Fireball into a blob of Quintessance, and drop the dot into a barrel. Repeat until the barrel is full. To set it off, destroy the barrel in such a way that a bunch of the quintessance will get blasted off the beads. Each blast scatters a bunch of beads. You get massive areas of damage, basically at random, as the Delayed blast fireball beads detonate, pushing their companion beads to the edges of their area. Repeatedly. Area of damage and amount of damage depends on how many beads you have in the barrel, and how they end up distributed. Does significant damage to structures.

Those cover the "Really big area of destruction" effects fairly well.

There's more, though.

If you're just looking to apply a massive amount of damage to something all at once, and don't care about the area....

Explosive Runes bomb: Get a bunch of loose-leaf papers. Cast Explosive Runes on each and every one at a high caster level. Tie them up in a bundle. Toss them at someone's feet. Cast Dispel Magic (area version) at a low caster level. When you fail to dispel an Explosive Rune, it explodes for 6d6 force damage to everyone and everything within ten feet (reflex half, with some caveats). If you've got 100 of them bundled up (the number of pages in a spellbook), and you fail to dispel all of them (CL 5 Dispel vs. CL 20 Runes, say), then you deal 600d6 damage to anyone within ten feet of where the package landed. Helps to have a companion on the throw. Be warned: You don't want to have this on your person in case of area dispels. Use a Handy Haversack.

Suicide Bomber: Has been mentioned, I think. Basically equip someone with a lot of those slotless Necklaces of Fireballs. Have them set one off at their feet, and voluntarily fail all saves. BOOM. Everything within 20 feet needs to make a rather lot of saves for half damage. Not suicidal if the bomber is immune to fire.

[dspeyer]

I just thought of one more: gate.

It creates a circle (diameter up to 20 ft) on any plane (never says can't be your own) such that any object passing through it in one direction is sent to a location of your choice. Put one end in the center of the sun. Brownian motion should pull about half the material through (or more if a suction effect exists). The material will then seek thermodynamic equalibrium, releasing energy roughly equal to its original pressure times volume, in a very short amount of time. Handwaving vigorously, a 5 foot hunk of plasma coming through a 20ft portal from a 250Gatm environment should have about 270 megatonnes tnt equivalent energy.

If the sun happens to be a dung beetle in your cosmology, you can probably still get pretty good results with the outer core of the earth, or even a magma-pocket from a soon-to-erupt volcano, but the calculations are left as an exercise for the reader.

[marcielle]

Hmm, ok then. SCIENCE TIME. Wish for area in a radius of target to have it's temperature raised by 0.0000000000000000000000001 degrees celcius until it's total replicates the same amount of heat from a fireball. Asumming a fire ball is over a 100 degress celcius ( this would actually be pretty low estimate) you have an astronomical area. In fact you can keep on going until you are tired of saying zeros. Since Wish can affect things across planar boundaries, you can nuke something in the material from the safety of your personal demiplane. and this gets over the whole, locate city is a flat disc problem.

[Mr.Bookworm]

@Mr. Bookworm: You have a discrepiency with you ranges. You list the area as 1000ft radius which is 2000ft diameter. Yet on the table and text you put the damage only going out to 500ft. Another thing is with a range of long the soonest you could get the spell would result in 1080ft has the max range. Based on that you would likely be having it go off pretty much in your face.

The damage only goes out to 500 ft., but the pseudo-radiation effect goes out to 1000 ft.

And the range is intentional. Ever played Paranoia?


That is absurdly powerful, even for a 9th level spell.

It has a 5-round casting time and has a very visible effect at the point where the explosion occurs. A monk could murder you in the face if you actually tried to use it in combat. Anything level appropriate will probably be able to take it (it's 350 damage average at ground zero and half of that is fire) or have a way to get outside the blast radius. Still, you are right, it does probably need to be scaled back a bit.

Split the Heavens
Evocation [Fire, Sonic]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: One 1000-ft.-radius circle; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No

When you cast this spell, two motes of light appear in the designated space, slowly orbiting each other before accelerating impossibly fast and then spiraling inwards to slam into the other mote. They violently explode when they collide in a flash of light and sound that can be seen and heard for dozens of miles, also creating a distinctive mushroom cloud of smoke and debris that rises up above the site of the explosion. Anyone who sees the motes may identify the spell being cast with a DC 24 Spellcraft check.

Everything within 500 ft. of the explosion takes damage, as indicated on the following table. The Reflex save DC for half damage is also modified by the amount indicated on the table.

{table=head]Distance | Damage | Reflex DC

10 ft. or less | 25d12 fire and 25d12 sonic | +10

50 ft. or less | 20d12 fire and 25d12 sonic | +5

100 ft. or less | 15d12 fire and 15d12 sonic | +5

200 ft. or less | 10d12 fire and 10d12 sonic | +

300 ft. or less | 5d12 fire and 5d12 sonic | +0

400 ft. or less | 1d12 fire and 1d12 sonic | +0

500 ft. or less | 1 fire and 1 sonic | +0

[/table]

Everything within the radius, even if they did not take damage, must make a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. If they fail this save, they must make another one at the same DC 24 hours later. If they fail again, they take another 1d6 points of Constitution damage. This continues until they die or they succeed on the Fortitude save.

For 5 minutes afterwards, smoke clogs the air around the site of the explosion. Everything within 500 ft. of the explosion is treated as if it were under the effects of fog. The radius of the fog-effect shrinks by 100 ft. for every minute that goes by.

Material component: A piece of cobalt.

That's 325/260/195/130/65/13/1 damage on average; if the target has fire immunity (which a lot of things do) or Improved Evasion it becomes 162/130/97/65/32/6/1 average. The Reflex saves would be (assuming caster with a spellcasting stat of 30) 39/34/34/29/29/29/29. A 20th level Rogue with a Dex of 26 and a Cloak of Resistance +5 can dodge a nuclear explosion that goes off in his face on a 14. I decreased the casting time a bit so you might be able to use it in combat, if someone doesn't smack you in the face over two turns worth of actions.

I think that works out pretty well.

[Anthrowhale]

There are a number of ways to do such things, depending on what you mean.

There's another. I've always thought of Forgotten Realm's Serpent Kingdom's Erupt as a nuke. It's a L9 cleric transmutation[fire] spell doing 10 damage/level in 100'/level burst (fort 1/2).

With a Hathran Cleric or Archivist and Earth Spell to push up your caster level, you can do ~500 damage in a 1 miles radius, adequate for breaking most structures and almost all creatures, as you might expect for a nuke.

[Rhatahema]

A pricier but more versatile variant of the Explosive Runes Bomb would be to stack columns of Shalantha's Delicate Disks [Lost Empires of Faerun, 6th level spell]. It costs 200gp per casting, but creates a 1' diameter disk 1" thick that can be broken with a DC5 Strength check or by having 1 point of damage dealt to it. On breaking, it casts the spell stored in it as if cast by the creator. The damage potential is great, but like a lot of other examples, the biggest limitation is that there's not a lot of ways to increase the area. What would be the best way to scatter those bombs?

[Jack_Simth]

A pricier but more versatile variant of the Explosive Runes Bomb would be to stack columns of Shalantha's Delicate Disks [Lost Empires of Faerun, 6th level spell]. It costs 200gp per casting, but creates a 1' diameter disk 1" thick that can be broken with a DC5 Strength check or by having 1 point of damage dealt to it. On breaking, it casts the spell stored in it as if cast by the creator. The damage potential is great, but like a lot of other examples, the biggest limitation is that there's not a lot of ways to increase the area. What would be the best way to scatter those bombs?Sell them as cobblestones for the empire's new road-building kick.

[Wings of Peace]

You use True Creation to create a 5'x5'x5' cube of electrons. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9617348&postcount=21)

[CTrees]

The first inherent problem with True Creation -> Antimatter is... the very idea of antimatter only started to be developed in the late 19th century. It's very reasonable for a DM to rule "if you don't even know something exists, even in theory, you can't create it." A knowledge check would be reasonable, but a knowledge check for concepts several hundred hundreds of years ahead of their time, without any of the background theory that led to them... should be difficult (albeit likely trivial at epic levels).

The second inherent problem (which extends to things like "open a Gate to the center of the sun!") is that physics may not work that way. "I'm sorry, you can't open a Gate into the center of the sun. The sun is an epic level illusion spell, generating only light and moderate, variable heat up to ~110F - thus why it can be Iron Heart Surged away. You have no idea what plasma is." "Conservation of momentum? Never heard of it." "What do you mean, center of the planet? You're on a plane; it extends infinitely in every direction, including down, but it's all dirt, all the way down, until you get to the turtles. then it's all turtles, all the way down." "Uranium? What's that? The only elements are electricity, fire, acid, cold, sound, and force. Those, along with positive and negative energy, make up all creation."

[Flickerdart]

When you're as deep in TO as antimatter bombs, it's probably pretty safe to assume that some Pun-Pun has replaced the sensible eight elements with a couple hundred really odd ones, just to mess with people. :smallbiggrin:

[Wings of Peace]

The first inherent problem with True Creation -> Antimatter is...

Antimatter and electrons are not the same thing. Also the point of theoretical optimization is that it's the theoretical extreme. Yes a DM could rule these things away but then you're dealing with practical optimization.

[Alleine]

The first inherent problem with True Creation -> Antimatter is... the very idea of antimatter only started to be developed in the late 19th century.

Of course the counter to that is that you're a wizard with a higher intelligence score than several geniuses added together. You have magic, which you've got wrapped tightly around your little finger, at your beck and call, and a very strong desire to make something explode in a most spectacular way.

Isn't there some passage in either the PHB or the DMG that tells you to assume that unless otherwise stated physics is pretty normal? I mean aside from the DM saying 'no', and the fact that magic exists. I recall something of the sort coming up in threads like this that get into physics.

[Wings of Peace]

Of course the counter to that is that you're a wizard with a higher intelligence score than several geniuses added together. You have magic, which you've got wrapped tightly around your little finger, at your beck and call, and a very strong desire to make something explode in a most spectacular way.

Isn't there some passage in either the PHB or the DMG that tells you to assume that unless otherwise stated physics is pretty normal? I mean aside from the DM saying 'no', and the fact that magic exists. I recall something of the sort coming up in threads like this that get into physics.

Is this the part you're thinking of?



BEHIND THE CURTAIN:
HOW REAL IS YOUR FANTASY?
This section on world-building assumes that your campaign is set in a
fairly realistic world. That is to say that while wizards cast spells, deities channel power to clerics, and dragons raze villages, the world is round, the laws of physics are applicable, and most people act like real people. The reason for this assumption is that unless they are told otherwise, this situation is what your players expect.

It goes on to explain how you might change physics, but the general assumption in the guide is that your world follows scientific principles.

[Alleine]

It goes on to explain how you might change physics, but the general assumption in the guide is that your world follows scientific principles.

Yes! That's the one. I always find it odd when people bring up the D&D physics =\= real world physics bit. I mean, unless you're the kind of person who likes to build the entire universe from the ground up, you're unlikely to come up with a decent set of physical laws that your players won't be able to annoy you with by picking it apart at every opportunity. That and most players also don't try to re-create nuclear devices, but maybe I just don't get to high levels often enough.

[Wings of Peace]

Yes! That's the one. I always find it odd when people bring up the D&D physics =\= real world physics bit. I mean, unless you're the kind of person who likes to build the entire universe from the ground up, you're unlikely to come up with a decent set of physical laws that your players won't be able to annoy you with by picking it apart at every opportunity. That and most players also don't try to re-create nuclear devices, but maybe I just don't get to high levels often enough.

I only thought of that chapter because of an old thread on the 339 boards about applied science in D&D. The end result was a functioning deathstar (which I believe was sentient) that could drop planet ending bombs made out of portable holes in addition to firing it's laser.

[noparlpf]

We actually brought up the calculations to figure out how far somebody fell in a round (and then subsequent rounds; one guy had had enough physics to calculate rough terminal velocity of a humanoid) when we couldn't remember the actual number.

Anyway, my Material Plane is just like the real-world universe. It goes on essentially forever and has essentially infinite worlds. But no, Int alone does not mean you know all this. You need to research it all yourself if you want to know it (depending on the world; some worlds have more scientific progress), and you can't just decide to "research physics" because you don't know what physics is in the first place.

[Wings of Peace]

because you don't know what physics is in the first place.

Unless you're an Omnifiscer or some variant there of.

[noparlpf]

Unless you're an Omnifiscer or some variant there of.

A what?

Also holy **** my pretzels just made a popping sound. Is it normal for an unattended bag of snacks to make sounds?

[Wings of Peace]

A what?

Also holy **** my pretzels just made a popping sound. Is it normal for an unattended bag of snacks to make sounds?

A character with an infinite bonus to all skills (and thus knowledge checks). (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer)

[noparlpf]

A character with an infinite bonus to all skills (and thus knowledge checks). (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer)

Sweet. That's pretty cool.

[Alleine]

But no, Int alone does not mean you know all this. You need to research it all yourself if you want to know it (depending on the world; some worlds have more scientific progress), and you can't just decide to "research physics" because you don't know what physics is in the first place.

Well no, but you have to admit a 30+ int level 20 wizard would probably be able to make some pretty quick logical leaps. I mean, you spend some time gaining mastery over magic, and notice that some things act certain ways. It works even better if you're playing up the inquisitive aspect. He gets bored after mastering magic and decides to take a closer look at the world. It might not be nearly as easy as I'd think, but given a lifetime of study I can see a wizard getting pretty deep into physics. Hell, with enough divinations to double check his work with the gods... :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

"...Or, we could just summon a horde of angels." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

A few hundred thousand chain-Gated Solars all casting area spells is kind of like a nuke, right?:smallbiggrin:

[TurtleKing]

Wait no can't go including real world physics in D&D. If you do magic will disappear.:smallwink:

[Wings of Peace]

Wait no can't go including real world physics in D&D. If you do magic will disappear.:smallwink:

Magic doesn't necessarily clash with physics (aside from conservation of energy), it just introduces a new principle to the universe, same as any soft science plot filler like Adam or Mass Effect Fields. In this case though we're just calling it magic and being purposely vague.

[TurtleKing]

Really? I heard it would.What didn't get the Flight of the Dragons reference?

[Alleran]

Oh yeah, I remember some high level spells being really good for this type of thing (just re-flavor the snow as ash, and you'll have a horrific spell-effect).
Of all the spells in Frostburn, Iceberg has to be the best. Not really for damage (it outpaces Meteor Swarm and so on, but that isn't hard - Erupt is probably a better comparison to Iceberg than Meteor Swarm is, given what it does to the surrounding area, and there's also Frostfell), but because you're dropping an iceberg on somebody. An iceberg. The hilarity factor alone makes it completely worthwhile.

[noparlpf]

Well no, but you have to admit a 30+ int level 20 wizard would probably be able to make some pretty quick logical leaps. I mean, you spend some time gaining mastery over magic, and notice that some things act certain ways. It works even better if you're playing up the inquisitive aspect. He gets bored after mastering magic and decides to take a closer look at the world. It might not be nearly as easy as I'd think, but given a lifetime of study I can see a wizard getting pretty deep into physics. Hell, with enough divinations to double check his work with the gods... :smallbiggrin:

I'd probably allow a Wizard with 30+ Int work things out, but I don't know what I'd let him work out because the basic principle of conservation of mass and energy doesn't even exist in D&D-land. (Unless you make magic draw on another plane which is just constantly having energy and mass sucked out of it.)

[Wings of Peace]

Really? I heard it would.What didn't get the Flight of the Dragons reference?

I'm being purely hypothetical of course. My explanation was based largely on my own personal views on how the two could mesh together.

Edit: I'm as good at getting references as I am at reading white text. :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

I'd probably allow a Wizard with 30+ Int work things out, but I don't know what I'd let him work out because the basic principle of conservation of mass and energy doesn't even exist in D&D-land. (Unless you make magic draw on another plane which is just constantly having energy and mass sucked out of it.)
Well, considering the six elemental planes (I'm counting Positive and Negative, here) are all infinite, that could actually work quite well.

[noparlpf]

Well, considering the six elemental planes (I'm counting Positive and Negative, here) are all infinite, that could actually work quite well.

Well, it's the only way things make sense.
So there's infinite mass and energy to access. If you actually succeed in destroying mass, have you really reduced the total amount if that amount is infinite?

[CTrees]

The first inherent problem with True Creation -> Antimatter is... the very idea of antimatter only started to be developed in the late 19th century. It's very reasonable for a DM to rule "if you don't even know something exists, even in theory, you can't create it." A knowledge check would be reasonable, but a knowledge check for concepts several hundred hundreds of years ahead of their time, without any of the background theory that led to them... should be difficult (albeit likely trivial at epic levels).

For the "trivial at epic levels," that extends to the omniscificer and other TO builds - I should have been clearer, but I was thinking about the epic skill levels. Regardless, I included that specifically to address how a properly built character could, yes, research science up to the modern day, in order to think creating antimatter or what have you might be a fun idea. (also, Wings of Peace: I wasn't responding to you and your suggestion of a cube of electrons. I was responding to the general suggestion of using antimatter in D&D. I know, quite well, the difference)


The second inherent problem (which extends to things like "open a Gate to the center of the sun!") is that physics may not work that way. "I'm sorry, you can't open a Gate into the center of the sun. The sun is an epic level illusion spell, generating only light and moderate, variable heat up to ~110F - thus why it can be Iron Heart Surged away. You have no idea what plasma is." "Conservation of momentum? Never heard of it." "What do you mean, center of the planet? You're on a plane; it extends infinitely in every direction, including down, but it's all dirt, all the way down, until you get to the turtles. then it's all turtles, all the way down." "Uranium? What's that? The only elements are electricity, fire, acid, cold, sound, and force. Those, along with positive and negative energy, make up all creation."

To everyone addressing "physics is assumed to act as normal, unless otherwise specified," I'll direct your attention to my bolded "may." I didn't include it for my health. I know the default assumptions. My entire second paragraph was DMing advice. A player tries physics based TO-shennanigans, here are some extremely reasonable ways one might deal with those. None of these are necessary during the initial world building phase of the campaign, either - they can be used once the question comes up, or a reasonable alternative could also be used, completely on the fly. These are solutions one may use, or may not. The "Behind the Curtain" callout from the DMG is not binding.

There, that about addresses everything I wasn't saying, which people were calling me out on for... some reason.

[Mixt]

A guy i know did something like this once.

I don't think this will actually help you, but i thought i throw out this little anecdote here.

He wanted to replicate the Final Fantasy spell Flare.
Which is essentially a single-target concentrated high-yield nuclear explosion/Miniature sun that the unfortunate target ends up right in the middle of.

One ridiculous epic spell later...

"I want to increase the range on this thing":smalleek:

It went from "Single target" to "Hits everything in a 5 mile radius" by the time he was done with it.

Several cities found themselves suffering the effects of basically being enveloped by the sun that day, leaving nothing but smoking craters behind.

Fire immunity? Doesn't matter, you still take massive damage.
In Final Fantasy, Flare is basically a whole lot of Nuclear Fire, but it counts as non-elemental damage, probably because there's more than just fire involved when you are getting owned by a star.
So nope, fire immunity won't keep you from dying horribly.

The DC on that thing was...monstrous.

Trust him to replicate a high-end Final Fantasy spell and then improve on it's destructive power by adding more range, just because he wanted to wipe out a few cities.

He only stopped blowing stuff up when the DM got tired of his shenanigans and started playing along with the Final Fantasy theme, by having Bahamut and his MEGAFLARE breath weapon show up
and blast him. (You blow up a few cities, a god shows up and strikes you down with a bigger version of the thing you used to blow the cities up, beware the godking of dragonkind, he's got solar breath!)

That whole campaign was pretty messed up...
For the record, it ended with the world being destroyed. By the PC's (Those who hadn't gotten themselves killed by a angry dragon god that is)
Because they decided they wanted to recreate "The Day Of Lavos" from Chrono Trigger.
Yes, it involved epic magic cheese.
Bastards.

DM: You want to what?
PC's: We want to create a epic spell called "Destruction rains from the heavens!"
DM: ...I give up, you succeed, the world is destroyed, everything dies, campaign over.

[CTrees]

Pfft, newbs. Should have been done from a private demiplane, via Astral Projection. World explodes? Okay, onto the next one! :smalltongue: I kid, I kid, haha!

[Mockingbird]

Portable hole attatched to a large javelin with a bag of holding on the end
Make it bigger while it's in mid-air, somehow, by delaying an enlarge spell or something.

Portable hole hits the ground first, javelin falls through it, bag of holding falls through too.
Everything in the radius is teleported to the astral plane. :D
This is hardly world-destroying, but if you're fighting a tarrasque, it would be much easier if the tarrasque was on the astral plane.

[Qwertystop]

Portable hole attatched to a large javelin with a bag of holding on the end
Make it bigger while it's in mid-air, somehow, by delaying an enlarge spell or something.

Portable hole hits the ground first, javelin falls through it, bag of holding falls through too.
Everything in the radius is teleported to the astral plane. :D
This is hardly world-destroying, but if you're fighting a tarrasque, it would be much easier if the tarrasque was on the astral plane.

I don't think the tarrasque would fit entirely within a 10-foot radius. Would it:
A: Not be affected; B: Get sucked in; or C: Have the bits of it in that 10-foot radius cleanly removed and sent to the Astral?

Also, why would it be easier? Just means you need to use a Plane Shift, find it again, and kill it as normal. Of course, it would probably starve, so it would be perma-unconsious and effectively defeated.