Reducing the Summoner to Tier 3?

[Curious]

So, I'm having tentative thoughts about a setting where magic- true magic -is simply unworkable for human(oid)s. As a result, they must form bonds with more inherently magical creatures, such as outsiders, dragons, and the fey, and channel their power. As I'm aiming for a tier 3 area for classes, the Binder, Dragonfire Adept, and Totemist are probably in, and I'm looking for a Warlock fix so I can include that as well. However, I'd also really like to include the Summoner to represent those who have managed to create a more permanent and personal bond with a spirit.

However, the Summoner is a tier 2 class. So I'm wondering what can be done to nerf them down to tier 3. My first thought was to reduce the number of Summon Monster SLs they get, and then to nerf their spell list a bit, but I'm not sure that would be enough. Any ideas, Playground?

Here's the Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com), and the Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons).

And here's the Summoners spell list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---summoner).

[tyckspoon]

Change their spell-list back so that all of their spells are the same level as the Wizard versions? As I understand it, while the Summoner only gets up to 6th level spells, a lot of its high-end power comes from having some really good spells compressed down to lower levels to fit that progression. Moving them back off the spell list would cut out a lot of the Summoner's stand-alone power and make it rely more on the Eidolon and class features (and if you're going high enough, you probably want to remove Gate from the Summon Monster spell-like progression.. because even with Pathfinder nerfs applied it's still, you know, Gate.)

And/or remove things that are not really in-theme but just let the Summoner serve as more of a traditional Wizard; he doesn't really need things like Acid Pit, Pellet Blast, and Create Demiplane(!) to be a summoner.

[Curious]

Change their spell-list back so that all of their spells are the same level as the Wizard versions? As I understand it, while the Summoner only gets up to 6th level spells, a lot of its high-end power comes from having some really good spells compressed down to lower levels to fit that progression. Moving them back off the spell list would cut out a lot of the Summoner's stand-alone power and make it rely more on the Eidolon and class features (and if you're going high enough, you probably want to remove Gate from the Summon Monster spell-like progression.. because even with Pathfinder nerfs applied it's still, you know, Gate.)

And/or remove things that are not really in-theme but just let the Summoner serve as more of a traditional Wizard; he doesn't really need things like Acid Pit, Pellet Blast, and Create Demiplane(!) to be a summoner.

Hm, that sounds like it would probably work. Their spell list is one of their biggest strengths, so I guess I'll just have to go over it with a fine-toothed comb, considering how many are discounted.

[Fax Celestis]

You could probably just remove the spellcasting completely, and let it choose on the fly whether to Synthesis or not.

[Curious]

You could probably just remove the spellcasting completely, and let it choose on the fly whether to Synthesis or not.

I think that may be a little extreme. I mean, without spells, even with at-will synthesising, it's pretty much just a Totemist minus utility abilities or the ability to maintain its main class feature (Eidolons don't heal naturally).

[grarrrg]

How about: They don't get any 6th level spells, but let them top off at 6 spell slots a level instead of 5 (plus Cha bonus slots).
If necessary, spread out when they do get a new spell level

[Starbuck_II]

So, I'm having tentative thoughts about a setting where magic- true magic -is simply unworkable for human(oid)s. As a result, they must form bonds with more inherently magical creatures, such as outsiders, dragons, and the fey, and channel their power. As I'm aiming for a tier 3 area for classes, the Binder, Dragonfire Adept, and Totemist are probably in, and I'm looking for a Warlock fix so I can include that as well. However, I'd also really like to include the Summoner to represent those who have managed to create a more permanent and personal bond with a spirit.

However, the Summoner is a tier 2 class. So I'm wondering what can be done to nerf them down to tier 3. My first thought was to reduce the number of Summon Monster SLs they get, and then to nerf their spell list a bit, but I'm not sure that would be enough. Any ideas, Playground?

Here's the Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com), and the Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons).

And here's the Summoners spell list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---summoner).

Summoner gets Cantrips, SLA summons, and Eidolon. = Tier 3. Still restricted to SLA or Eidolon (or both at same time out unlike normal).

Loss of spells is a serious loss. I say leave Cantrips for flavor/utility.

[Curious]

How about: They don't get any 6th level spells, but let them top off at 6 spell slots a level instead of 5 (plus Cha bonus slots).
If necessary, spread out when they do get a new spell level

Hm, that sounds both quick and effective. Definitely considering it.


Summoner gets Cantrips, SLA summons, and Eidolon. = Tier 3. Still restricted to SLA or Eidolon (not both at same time out as normal).

Loss of spells is a serious loss. I say leave Cantrips for flavor/utility.

While it may be tier 3, at that point the class seems a little boring. All you ever do is either spam summoned monsters or let the Eidolon beat the tar out of whatever you're facing.