Factotum Help

[Dracon823]

i hope im posting this in the right section.

First off im joining my friends D&D game cause their old member moved away and they have a spot open. So im being let in and building a lvl 9 char. So i want to make a Factotum. Now i want him to be Knowledgeable and charismatic and a great combatant. His stats are as followed for lvl 9

Str: 12
Dex: 17
Con:10
Int:20
Wis: 13
Chr:14

Now i took 3, lvls of Swashbuckler for. Insightful Strike
The feats are as followed:
Two Weapon Fighting
Improve Two Weapon Fighting
Iron Will

Hes human.

Now my question is should i split between factotum and Swashbuckler. Or should i split into rouge for better combat abilitys. Sneak Attack mostly.
I want him to be able to output decent damage.

His weapons of are a Keen rapier and a Frost Short Sword.
Magic items are Death Strike Bracers, and Head Band of Int +1 for the bonus int.

he is suppose to be a Robin Hood type char.

[Kaje]

The standard way for a Factotum to get decent damage output is via Iaijutsu Focus and a Gnome Quickrazor, but I don't think that's exactly what you're going for.

[Lateral]

Stay in Factotum. Three levels is the maximum you'd want to take in Swashbuckler, and Factotum is way better than Rogue.

If you were going for a really Robin Hood-like character, you could use Greater Manyshot in conjunction with Cunning Surge. However, it looks like you're going with TWF- in this case, your best bet would be dual-wielding Quickrazors and going Iaijutsu Focus, but it doesn't look like that's what you want.

[Dracon823]

Even though Iaijutsu Focus looks and sounds great, i dont think it works for the char. Or at least how i see him.

[JaronK]

Well, if you want knowledgeable, you could go for Knowledge Devotion. It eats up a LOT of skill points (be human, pump Int) but goes great with archery as a general tactic (slightly different direction than you were going, but still should be Robin Hood-ish).

JaronK

[HunterOfJello]

If you want a character that is Knowledgeable, Charismatic, and a Great Combatant then you might want to reconsider Factotum. They can fulfill the first two qualifications, but the class really isn't going to be as efficient a combatant as you seem to want it to be if you're looking at levels in swashbuckler and TWF. The Factotum is an amazing class that fulfills every character option except for being great in combat.

~

I would suggest a Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3 with Daring Outlaw if you want a similar character who runs around using TWF.

Bards can be made to be extremely knowledgeable, extremely charismatic, and can be efficient in combat through several means. (Snowflake Wardance on the game table!)

Cloistered Clerics can also be very efficient at being knowledgeable and generally charismatic while being highly efficient in combat, if not always in melee.

~

If you are insistent on the Factotum class, there are ways to play them effectively but it has to be done properly. Look up the factotum handbook on Google to get a better handle on the class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Factotum 4/ Warblade 1/ Factotum 2/ Warblade 2 starting out, future levels should be Factotum 4/ Warblade 1/ Factotum 6. Get Wolf Fang Strike, Hunter's Sense, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Leading the Attack, and White Raven Tactics starting out. At your next and final Warblade level you should get Tactics of the Wolf and trade Leading the Attack for Dancing Mongoose. Maybe substitute some of the Factotum levels for three Swashbuckler, but only after you've got Factotum 8 for Cunning Surge, see below for why.

Say you bested the Iron Wyrm Vault detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat Tactile Trapsmith for 3,000 gp without having to spend a feat on it. That switches Search and Disable Device to Dex, and you add your Int bonus back to them anyway via Brains Over Brawn. Also say you were trapped in the Otyugh Hole also in Complete Scoundrel for the appropriate amount of time to get Iron Will for 3,000 gp without having to spend a feat on that, either. If you don't plan on being the party's trapmonkey then you can just skip the Iron Wyrm Vault and save that 3,000 gp.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to have two extra feats. Also get the Absent Minded and Detached traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm). You'll have seven feats starting out (flaw, flaw, human, 1, 3, 6, 9), so get Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) three times, Two-Weapon Fighting, Knowledge Devotion, Weapon Finesse, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. Get the Collector of Stories skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. Put at least one rank into every Knowledge skill that identifies creatures (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, Planes) and consider putting max or near-max ranks into Nature, maybe Arcana, and maybe a few others.

Get Claw Gloves and at least one other piece of the Garb of the Hunting Cat set from MIC. Get a Hat of Disguise with an Enhancement bonus to Int added (MIC p234), and Sandals of the Vagabond (CC) with an Enhancement bonus to Dex added (MIC p234). A Ring of Sustenance and a Healing Belt (MIC) are also highly recommended. +1 Mithral Breastplate and if you can afford it a +1 Animated heavy shield are good to have. If you still have money to spend, Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance are pretty good with Knowledge Devotion.

Your readied maneuvers should be Iron Heart Surge, Wolf Fang Strike, and White Raven Tactics. At your fourth Warblade level your extra readied maneuver should be Dancing Mongoose. White Raven Tactics can be used on yourself as per the PHB definition of 'ally' so you can take two turns in one round. Your initial round should include any maneuvers you want to use, then White Raven Tactics at the end of it. During the turn gained via WRT you can full attack or charge and then recover all of your maneuvers, so you can do that every turn, though your initiative will gradually move lower. You can charge in and attack with both Claw Gloves and rend, or move-action and Wolf Fang Strike and rend. At Factotum 8 you'll be able to Cunning Surge to Wolf Fang Strike in addition to your full attack, and once you have Dancing Mongoose you'll be able to make ten attacks per round with Greater TWF, since afterward you'll get a White Raven Tactics turn in which to recover all your maneuvers and make six more attacks. As soon as you see opponents you can roll appropriate Knowledge checks for Knowledge Devotion without spending any actions, so it will always give you at least +1 to attack and damage rolls, often quite a bit more especially with Collector of Stories.

[Incanur]

If you want a character that is Knowledgeable, Charismatic, and a Great Combatant then you might want to reconsider Factotum. They can fulfill the first two qualifications, but the class really isn't going to be as efficient a combatant as you seem to want it to be if you're looking at levels in swashbuckler and TWF. The Factotum is an amazing class that fulfills every character option except for being great in combat.

:smallconfused: Wait, what? How do you get from swashbuckler and TWF to efficient in combat? I think I'm missing a step in your logical progression. With dervish levels or Daring Outlaw, maybe. Even then, a properly built factotum competes with skill and aplomb. Factotums make solid trippers at lower levels thanks to Brains Over Brawn. They get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list and thus can mini-nova with wraithstrike or turn into hydra with polymorph. They make fine archers. Etc.

I also recommend the factotum/warblade multiclass.

[hex0]

Chameleon is nice.

You could go Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 3 and be a nice tripper with a spiked chain. Then go into Warblade. Or get some daring outlaw fun in there.

[HunterOfJello]

:smallconfused: Wait, what? How do you get from swashbuckler and TWF to efficient in combat? I think I'm missing a step in your logical progression. With dervish levels or Daring Outlaw, maybe. Even then, a properly built factotum competes with skill and aplomb. Factotums make solid trippers at lower levels thanks to Brains Over Brawn. They get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list and thus can mini-nova with wraithstrike or turn into hydra with polymorph. They make fine archers. Etc.

I also recommend the factotum/warblade multiclass.

The point I was trying to make is that Factotums are both Knowledgeable and Charismatic throughout their levels. However, they are sub-par in combat to most other classes depending on the number of fights per day. At low levels they are efficient at tripping and making use of Brains Over Brawn, but the first post says that the character will be level 9 so that just won't be so.

Further decreasing a potential Factotum 9 to Factotum 6/ Swashbuckler 3 will make the character weaker in combat because they'll have a low bonus to damage that won't amount to much in the long run for the sacrifice of 3 levels in Factotum where they could be grabbing more useful spells. The Factotum 9 will have Cunning Surge and 4 spells per day, one of which will be at 3rd level instead of the Factotum 6 which doesn't have Cunning Surge and only has 2 spells per day, one of which is at 2nd level.

The OP's original position is obviously to attempt to use Swashbuckler and TWF to get lots of attacks to do a bit of extra damage using Insightful Strike or whatever it's called to do an extra 5 damage per hit. If you're interested in that route, then you might as well go do a Daring Outlaw build of Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 6 so he'll be doing 5d6+5 for each proper sneak attack instead of only the 5. Yes, cunning strike gives you a bit of sneak attack damage, but it's only on 1 attack per fight and would only be 3d6 versus 5d6 on every sneak attack.

Going into mostly Factotum while throwing a bit of Warblade or Swordsage into the mix can be a useful idea and it is a much better idea than Swashbuckler.

~

My main gripe about the build was that a Factotum slowed down by Swashbuckler 3 and two TWF feats might is that they won't be doing effective TWF damage and would not end up being as combat effective as other extremely similar builds could be. Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 6 would be far superior with those tactics of TWF. If the character wants to be signifigantly more charismatic while still running around poking people and skill monkeying, then Bard is always an option. And finally, if they're more interested in spells, while still holding up plenty of skill points and charming people, then Cloistered Cleric works surprisingly well in that situation while still being useful in a plethora of other ways.

I hope that makes my point clearer. Rereading the original post I see that my writing did not make my point come across. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Incanur]

However, they are sub-par in combat to most other classes depending on the number of fights per day.

Still don't agree with this, particularly if game in question allows alter self/polymorph nonsense. Sub-par in combat doesn't get you into tier 3.


Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 6 would be far superior with those tactics of TWF.

Agree with this.

[Dracon823]

Well to be frank i didnt post his real stats due to the game is homebrewed.

My char is able to cast spells from the illusion list corrisponding to his max lvl.

Also his full stats are

str:16
Dex:20
Con:10
Wis:20
Int:26 +2 from magic item
Chr: 20 as well.

right now the party consistes of a Fighter, Wizard, Rouge, and a Cleric/brd.

my next three lvls im thinking of taking rouge so i can get the feat that stacks rouge and swashbuckler lvls. then finish up the rest in factotum.

[Safety Sword]

... and Factotum is way better than Rogue.

I'll just wait here for Curmudgeon.

You might want to re-read Cunning Strike and tell me exactly how much damage that's going to add to your attacks. I'll wait.

Edit: I always get Cunning Surge and Cunning Strike confused, apologies... damned brain just won't process this properly! I'm still not sure I have it right... gah!

Another Edit:

Originally Posted by Dungeonscape, page 17
you can spend 1 inspiration point to gain 1d6 points of sneak attack damage. You must spend the inspiration point to activate this ability before making the attack roll. It's really quite clear it's only one point which adds +1d6 - comparing that with sneak attack, it doesn't look favourable.

[NineThePuma]

Another Edit:
It's really quite clear it's only one point which adds +1d6 - comparing that with sneak attack, it doesn't look favourable.FAQ clarifies that it was intended to stack multiple inspiration for multiple dice.

[Safety Sword]

FAQ clarifies that it was intended to stack multiple inspiration for multiple dice.

FAQ - you mean that reliable and reputable rules source. Oh wait, it's not a rules source at all.

FAQ isn't RAW.

This is the bit where you try to convince me it is and I maintain it is not. So let's skip that. :smallwink:

[NineThePuma]

Oh, no. I merely pointed that out. I, personally, use a combination of Iaijutsu Focus, Gnomish Quickrazors, Pierce Magical Concealment, and a Ring of Blinking for my needs.

It was intended for the OP to go to his DM and talk it out. It wasn't intended to be a statement of fact.

EVERYTHING goes to the DM, in the end. I was providing grounds for the OP to make an argument with the DM to let him spend multiple inspiration to go "RAWR, SUPER SNEAK ATTACK"

[Safety Sword]

Oh, no. I merely pointed that out. I, personally, use a combination of Iaijutsu Focus, Gnomish Quickrazors, Pierce Magical Concealment, and a Ring of Blinking for my needs.

It was intended for the OP to go to his DM and talk it out. It wasn't intended to be a statement of fact.

EVERYTHING goes to the DM, in the end. I was providing grounds for the OP to make an argument with the DM to let him spend multiple inspiration to go "RAWR, SUPER SNEAK ATTACK"

All depends on whether you want to cherry pick FAQ to use bits you think aren't totally stupid (and there are many examples of bad and even just plainly wrong interpretations of rules in FAQ) or follow the actual rules for the game (those that appear in rulebooks and errata).

Anything else is a house rule.

[Hirax]

All depends on whether you want to cherry pick FAQ to use bits you think aren't totally stupid (and there are many examples of bad and even just plainly wrong interpretations of rules in FAQ)

I for one am fine with cherry picking the FAQ for exactly that reason. Not saying that's the correct approach, but it certainly isn't a bad one.

[Safety Sword]

I for one am fine with cherry picking the FAQ for exactly that reason. Not saying that's the correct approach, but it certainly isn't a bad one.

The only reason I even mentioned it is because if I was to say "OK, FAQ is now RAW" my game would be in the toilet.

I still don't think that FAQ is correct in the case of Factotum, by the way. It makes Cunning Strike too good if I just keep taking FoI and can instantly add +20d6 to an attack (OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea).

I don't think that was the intention at all. Perhaps put a cap on the number of points you can spend (and consequently the dice you add) and it may be a viable house rule.

[Hirax]

I don't think that was the intention at all. Perhaps put a cap on the number of points you can spend (and consequently the dice you add) and it may be a viable house rule.

My hunch is that it was the intention for it to work that way, given that FoI is an online feat that's not in the book, and written by someone who doesn't have any design credit in Dungeonscape. Even if there was awareness of FoI when Factotum was written, I'd still ere on the side of it being written to work that way anyway, and they were simply unaware of or unconcerned with the ramifications of people loading up on FoI and dumping all their points into it. Which isn't a factor at all during low levels unless you allowed flaws.

Though if anyone is capable of summoning Rich on this petty matter, perhaps he could give us the answer of how it was intended.

[MeeposFire]

The only reason I even mentioned it is because if I was to say "OK, FAQ is now RAW" my game would be in the toilet.

I still don't think that FAQ is correct in the case of Factotum, by the way. It makes Cunning Strike too good if I just keep taking FoI and can instantly add +20d6 to an attack (OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea).

I don't think that was the intention at all. Perhaps put a cap on the number of points you can spend (and consequently the dice you add) and it may be a viable house rule.

Who cares about SA? Fist fulls of D6's sound nice but SA is not that great and the extra standard actions are far more valuable and nobody is arguing that.

[Safety Sword]

Who cares about SA? Fist fulls of D6's sound nice but SA is not that great and the extra standard actions are far more valuable and nobody is arguing that.

I care about sneak attack, for one. I happen to like the rogue class.

Fist fulls of d6 are great if they are your main class feature.

No one is arguing about extra standard actions (at all!), I think we have another Cunning Strike/Surge crossover perhaps?

[MeeposFire]

I care about sneak attack, for one. I happen to like the rogue class.

Fist fulls of d6 are great if they are your main class feature.

No one is arguing about extra standard actions (at all!), I think we have another Cunning Strike/Surge crossover perhaps?

No what I am saying is that nobody is arguing whether the extra standard actions work and yet that is by far the more powerful option. SA on one attack is a waste of inspiration. SA is not worth the cost at all. If you spend all of your inspiration on one SA there had better be only one enemy because you have invested too many resources (in inspiration and in feats using font) to make for one nice attack (that you cannot rely on far too many enemies). If what you are fighting lives or there is more than one enemy you have nothing left to do. The standard actions are much more versatile and can be much more useful and powerful.

[Safety Sword]

No what I am saying is that nobody is arguing whether the extra standard actions work and yet that is by far the more powerful option. SA on one attack is a waste of inspiration. SA is not worth the cost at all. If you spend all of your inspiration on one SA there had better be only one enemy because you have invested too many resources (in inspiration and in feats using font) to make for one nice attack (that you cannot rely on far too many enemies). If what you are fighting lives or there is more than one enemy you have nothing left to do. The standard actions are much more versatile and can be much more useful and powerful.

Ahh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

Like I said, I prefer rogue every day of the week, I was just trying to pint(mmmm beer) point out the Factotum isn't the be all and end all. It does have rule and resource limitations (as you point out MeeposFire).

[Little Brother]

My advice: Alter self=you laugh at the fighter, then kick him in the nuts and take his lunch money. You can also use save or loses and such, and with your skill points, you do the same to the rogue. If psionics are in your campaign setting, take FoI twice, and pay some psion to PsiRef them out repeatedly for absurdly high IP. Knowledge Devotion(CC) is okay if you have the skill points to blow, and being a human with those stats, I don't see how you wouldn't. If you want to, you could take a level of Cloistered Cleric for some domains and turn undead, with you charisma it'd be nice, and get some stuff like, say, divine might.

What weapon do you plan on using? I know it's already been said, but quickrazors are great.

[candycorn]

If psionics are in your campaign setting, take FoI twice, and pay some psion to PsiRef them out repeatedly for absurdly high IP.

If by "absurdly high", you mean "4", then you're right.

With 2 FOI, the first gives 1, and the second gives 2.
When you PsyRef the first out, and select it again, the First gives 2, but you lose the 1 you got from it to begin with. At this point, Psyref will not help any more, since no matter which one you psyref, you will only ever have 2 total feats of it.

Now, if you're human, and you have 2 flaws, and you use all your feats on it, you'll have FoI x 7. With good psyref, you can shift them so:
FoI 1 = 1 point
FoI 2 = 2 points
FoI 3 = 3 points
FoI 4 = 4 points
FoI 5 = 5 points
FoI 6 = 6 points
FoI 7 = 7 points
PsyRef FoI 1 - you have 6 others, so the 1 changes to 7
PsyRef FoI 2 - you have 6 others, so the 2 changes to 7
PsyRef FoI 3 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 4 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 5 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 6 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 7 into whatever other feat you want
End result: Every FoI you keep gives you 7 points, and other feats are usable as you see fit.

[Little Brother]

If by "absurdly high", you mean "4", then you're right.

With 2 FOI, the first gives 1, and the second gives 2.
When you PsyRef the first out, and select it again, the First gives 2, but you lose the 1 you got from it to begin with. At this point, Psyref will not help any more, since no matter which one you psyref, you will only ever have 2 total feats of it.

Now, if you're human, and you have 2 flaws, and you use all your feats on it, you'll have FoI x 7. With good psyref, you can shift them so:
FoI 1 = 1 point
FoI 2 = 2 points
FoI 3 = 3 points
FoI 4 = 4 points
FoI 5 = 5 points
FoI 6 = 6 points
FoI 7 = 7 points
PsyRef FoI 1 - you have 6 others, so the 1 changes to 7
PsyRef FoI 2 - you have 6 others, so the 2 changes to 7
PsyRef FoI 3 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 4 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 5 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 6 into whatever other feat you want
PsyRef FoI 7 into whatever other feat you want
End result: Every FoI you keep gives you 7 points, and other feats are usable as you see fit.No.

You can take this multiple times. Each time you take this feat after the first time, the number of inspiration points you gain increases by 1 (for example, you gain 2 inspiration points if you take the feat a second time). The maximum number of times you can take this feat is equal to your Intelligence modifier.

FoI 1 gives you one, FoI 2 gives you two. Then it turn into:

PsyRef FoI 1->FoI 3
PsyRef FoI 2->FoI 4
Psyref FoI 3 ->FoI 5
And so on, though you would get more from more FoIs, but you don't need them, especially if you can convince(Read cast suggestion successfully) a Psion to cast it repeatedly for you. It lasts an hour/level, and you can cast it at level 6, I believe, so you can get it done 36 times from 1 casting(10 minute casting, x 6 x 6). That would get you 73 IP, or "I don't even have to think about how to use them at this point. Ooh, hey, more actions!"