Fochlucan Lyrist entry

[noparlpf]

So...to enter Fochlucan Lyrist, you need to be at least 10th level (Perform 13 ranks) and have Evasion somehow? I can understand limiting it to levels 11-20, but why does it require Evasion? "This class is a fusion of the druid and bard base classes", and neither gets Evasion...

Anyhow, for a build that assumes that Evasion isn't actually supposed to be an entry requirement because it's not from either Bard or Druid, I was thinking Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Bard casting: 16th level; Druid casting: 19th level. So you get a couple of 6th-level Bard spells and a couple of 9th-level Druid spells. For a build that requires Evasion, I guess replace two levels of Druid with two levels of Monk, unless there's a way to get it with only a one-level dip or via a feat.

[Luca]

If level adjustment buyoff is in effect then the shadow template (+2, LoM) can get you evasion, as well as a few other goodies like +2 luck bonus to saves and fast healing 2. Not to mention total concealment in any kind of shadow.

[noparlpf]

None of the other players at my school like XP. They use a more free-form system where the DM decides when we should level up. And if we go with the 1 XP=5 gp rule (from magic items involving XP), I can't afford LA buyoff at all.

See, I get that XP means doing a little more paperwork, but it simplifies so many things. Crafting, spells with XP components, all kinds of things.

[Optimator]

It requires evasion because it is a reference to 1st edition bards.

[Starbuck_II]

So...to enter Fochlucan Lyrist, you need to be at least 10th level (Perform 13 ranks) and have Evasion somehow? I can understand limiting it to levels 11-20, but why does it require Evasion? "This class is a fusion of the druid and bard base classes", and neither gets Evasion...

Reference to 1E Bards. They required levels in Thief. 1st Prc ever.


Anyhow, for a build that assumes that Evasion isn't actually supposed to be an entry requirement because it's not from either Bard or Druid, I was thinking Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Bard casting: 16th level; Druid casting: 19th level. So you get a couple of 6th-level Bard spells and a couple of 9th-level Druid spells. For a build that requires Evasion, I guess replace two levels of Druid with two levels of Monk, unless there's a way to get it with only a one-level dip or via a feat.

Ring of Evasion works too. You just lose class features (not spells) when ring gets dispelled.

[hex0]

If you can somehow cheat Wildshape Ranger to learn Druidic, you can qualify with Ranger 9/Bard 2

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC the usual way to get the Evasion requirement is to get the feats "Shape Souldmeld: Impulse boots" and Open lesser(?) chakra to get evasion.

[MeeposFire]

IIRC the usual way to get the Evasion requirement is to get the feats "Shape Souldmeld: Impulse boots" and Open lesser(?) chakra to get evasion.

Best option assuming you have feats to burn unless you like being restricted to a specific item (I hate doing that personally).

[Elric VIII]

One that I rather like is Bard 1/Cleric 5/Combat Medic 4/Lyrist 10.

Use Initiate of Milil to add Bard and Cleric levels.

Combat Medic (HoB) is a divine PrC that grants Evasion.

You can pick up Druidic via Speak Language (unlike starting languages, it has no restriction on secret languages).

Sanctum Spell or Heighten+Versatile Spellcaster gets you 1st level Arcane spells. Alternatively, trade 1 level of Cleric for either a second level of Bard or 1 level of Wizard (and advance Wizard casting with lyrist)

You can make up for the effective bard levels lost due to Combat Medic with Chaos Music (Drg Magazine 326). It is a chaotic-only feat that adds +4 to your Bard level, up to your HD (Practiced Spellcaster for Bardic Music).

So you walk away from the build with either Cleric 19/Bard 11 or Cleric 18/Bard 12. You could also go Druid into Combat Medic, but you couldn't stack levels using Initiate of Milil.

[gorfnab]

Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spellsinger 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9 - gets you 9th level arcane and 8th level druid spells

Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 5/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9 - needs some source of evasion but nets you 9th level arcane and 9th level druid spells.

[MeeposFire]

It is possible if you dumpster dive enough to get 9th level spells on both sides and +16 BAB (nines in both sides usually requires sublime chord and another early 9 caster class). The problem is unless you are starting at level 11 or so it is so painful to get to a point where you are actually good since before 11 or 12 or so you are so multiclassed it is hard to do anything well. After 12th level or so you quickly gain power but it is a very painful mountain to climb.

[noparlpf]

I try to avoid Sublime Chord because it's used for so many ridiculously cheesy things.

Anyway, as for Evasion: this isn't 1E, it's 3.5. So should I just ask the DM whether he thinks the Evasion requirement belongs in 3.5, or should I go with a Ring of Evasion?

[nedz]

Ring of Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

We seem to have this debate ad infinitum, but a Ring of Evasion doesn't grant you the feat so its not a valid pre-req for FL by RAW.

[Starbuck_II]

We seem to have this debate ad infinitum, but a Ring of Evasion doesn't grant you the feat so its not a valid pre-req for FL by RAW.

It doesn't ask for Evasion feat. It asks for Evasion only read the book again.
Rangers grant as if TWFing and they count.

Read the FAQ.

[nedz]

Evasion class feature - sorry.
Nothing in the FAQ or Errata which I can find ?

[sreservoir]

Evasion class feature - sorry.
Nothing in the FAQ or Errata which I can find ?

class feature? no, "Special: Bardic knowledge and evasion abilities." doesn't have to be from calss.

[CapnVan]

Ring of Evasion works too. You just lose class features (not spells) when ring gets dispelled.

Ring of Evasion is an argument that will never be answered, so let's skip that.

But the second half of that isn't correct: Spells are a class ability. When you no longer qualify for the class, because your ring has been dispelled, you lose your spells too. All you keep are: BAB, HP, and saves. Complete Warrior, p. 16

[Coidzor]

Ring of Evasion is an argument that will never be answered, so let's skip that.

Considering OP went straight to "ask the DM" with it anyway, pretty much.

[Urpriest]

I try to avoid Sublime Chord because it's used for so many ridiculously cheesy things.

Anyway, as for Evasion: this isn't 1E, it's 3.5. So should I just ask the DM whether he thinks the Evasion requirement belongs in 3.5, or should I go with a Ring of Evasion?

It may not be 1E, but the whole point of the Fochluchan Lyrist is to replicate the 1E bard. If the 1E bard didn't work the way it did, Fochluchan Lyrist wouldn't exist.

[Coidzor]

Real question is why its skill requirements are randomly set up to require 10th level.

Wouldn't be quite as bad if it could just get entered with the Rogue 2/Bard 2/Druid 2 the designers obviously wanted because they had such a fetish for even-level multiclassing.

[Godskook]

I try to avoid Sublime Chord because it's used for so many ridiculously cheesy things.

I agree that Fochlucan Lyrist and Sublime Chord really shouldn't be mixed unless your DM is explicitly asking for 'full-power'.

Although, I think the 'easy' way to measure if Sublime Chord usage is 'cheesy' is if you can make the same thing happen with a wizard or sorcerer. If you can, its not really cheesy, since all you're doing is getting a couple bardic buffs in place of whatever wizard/sorcerer abilities you gave up. In builds where you're blatantly bypassing obstacles that even wizards can't get around, then you're getting into the chedder.


Anyway, as for Evasion: this isn't 1E, it's 3.5. So should I just ask the DM whether he thinks the Evasion requirement belongs in 3.5, or should I go with a Ring of Evasion?

I don't think the evasion requirement unintentional, so your DM might likely rule against you there.

And for the record, what's wrong with:

Druid 7/Rogue 2/Bard 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

[hex0]

Druid 7/Rogue 2/Bard 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Because that is what they intended?

But how do you get the performance skills?

Would Prestige Barded wizard make this better

[Anarchy_Kanya]

But how do you get the performance skills?
Take Rogue and Bard after Druid?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Ring of Evasion is an argument that will never be answered, so let's skip that.

But the second half of that isn't correct: Spells are a class ability. When you no longer qualify for the class, because your ring has been dispelled, you lose your spells too. All you keep are: BAB, HP, and saves. Complete Warrior, p. 16

Complete Divine, page 70. That is all.

[Greenish]

Evasion class feature - sorry.
Nothing in the FAQ or Errata which I can find ?There are PrCs that require "Evasion as a class feature", but the lyrist isn't one of them.

[Coidzor]

And for the record, what's wrong with:

Druid 7/Rogue 2/Bard 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Unbalanced, doesn't make sense for a druid to nerf itself by stopping to be a druid to become a bard.

Hell, it doesn't fit with the soppy sodding fluff.

[Big Fau]

Ring of Evasion is an argument that will never be answered, so let's skip that.

Which is why Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)+Open Least Chakra works better. Not only that, the DM can't steal your Boots, and you get Uncanny Dodge.

[hex0]

Take Rogue and Bard after Druid?

The druid has it cross classed though. You need 13 ranks

[Coidzor]

The druid has it cross classed though. You need 13 ranks

8+8+6+6 skill points is greater than 13.

[Starbuck_II]

There are PrCs that require "Evasion as a class feature", but the lyrist isn't one of them.

I assume he thinks Evasion class feature is a prereq listed by the class, but he needs to reread the prereqs and note it never says anyuthing about class.

It wants you to circumvent the method whether Soulmeld or Ring.

[sreservoir]

I assume he thinks Evasion class feature is a prereq listed by the class, but he needs to reread the prereqs and note it never says anyuthing about class.

It wants you to circumvent the method whether Soulmeld or Ring.

wants? probably not; that wouldn't really get the nostalgia factor properly. but effectiveness says you'll want to anyway.

does it amuse anyone other than me that the product of three 3/4 BAB classes is a 1/1 BAB class? and that most-intended entry has a final BAB of 16, just enough to get the fourth iterative?

[noparlpf]

does it amuse anyone other than me that the product of three 3/4 BAB classes is a 1/1 BAB class? and that most-intended entry has a final BAB of 16, just enough to get the fourth iterative?

If you mix 3/4 BaB classes you tend to get less than 3/4 but often more than 1/2. You'll never magically get extra BaB out of it. On the other hand, I think Fochlucan Lyrist is a 1/1 BaB class (I don't have the book open right now, though).

[sreservoir]

If you mix 3/4 BaB classes you tend to get less than 3/4 but often more than 1/2. You'll never magically get extra BaB out of it. On the other hand, I think Fochlucan Lyrist is a 1/1 BaB class (I don't have the book open right now, though).

yes. bard, druid, and rogue are all 3/4 BAB. a bard 2/druid 6/rogue 2 has BAB 6, which is only 1 more than 1/2 BAB -- though just enough to get the second iterative two levels earlier. and then it goes into FL, and suddenly, 1/1 BAB.

[CapnVan]

Complete Divine, page 70. That is all.

I'm looking at p.70 and see nothing under Ur-Priest that would have any bearing on whether you lose spells when you no longer qualify for a PrC, nor anything that would override Complete Warrior.

Care to expand?

[Urpriest]

wants? probably not; that wouldn't really get the nostalgia factor properly. but effectiveness says you'll want to anyway.

does it amuse anyone other than me that the product of three 3/4 BAB classes is a 1/1 BAB class? and that most-intended entry has a final BAB of 16, just enough to get the fourth iterative?

That last is almost certainly intentional.

The whole point of the 1E bard was this sort of uber-multiclass that could do anything. It's the wellspring from whence Theurges, Gishes, and Caster-Skillmonkeys all sprang.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I'm looking at p.70 and see nothing under Ur-Priest that would have any bearing on whether you lose spells when you no longer qualify for a PrC, nor anything that would override Complete Warrior.

Care to expand?

As per the rules of Complete Warrior and the special section under the Ur-Priest entry the Ur-Priest CAN'T function because the class breaks its own rules, thus it loses all of the class features.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'll tell you how you do it (not really)

Rogue 2/Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

You are a bard who is also a rogue.

You learn just enough about reading people's minds to be a mindbender.

You find some convoluted plan to get a Loremaster (who can learn Druidic without the stigma) to teach you, for whatever it costs.

You finally realize your dream of stealing power from the gods as an Ur-Priest.

You by this point are 10th level, you take a level in Sublime Chord, feeling the music flow through your veins.

You go and take a four year degree program at the College of Fochluch.

You count to 20 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhDJe8IP8A0)

It's like eating dirt for so many levels, but eventually you go from weird guy to minor god of magic like a snap.

[Coidzor]

Well, the bard levels can lead to being MVP for assists (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

[Dusk Eclipse]

As per the rules of Complete Warrior and the special section under the Ur-Priest entry the Ur-Priest CAN'T function because the class breaks its own rules, thus it loses all of the class features.


Considering those rules only appear in CWar and CArc, and that they don't appear in the in the primary source for Prg. Classes (the DMG) it is safe to assume that those particular rules only apply to the Prg. Classes in said books, otherwise we have problems such as the Schrodinger Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest

[Anarchy_Kanya]

It was already established that this rules became general rules. It's somewhere in an official FAQ, but I don't know where exactly. Someone linked it in one of the recent threads. Maybe even this one. I'm too lazy to search.

[Dusk Eclipse]

FAQ=/= RAW, besides I find it a completely stupid rule, if you follow it exactly as it is stated, you loose your class when you run out of spell slots...

[Big Fau]

FAQ=/= RAW, besides I find it a completely stupid rule, if you follow it exactly as it is stated, you loose your class when you run out of spell slots...

And when you complete the Dragon Disciple class.



Let's just say that WotC has horrible editing skills. The sample NPCs in the Bo9S are all incorrect for some reason or another, the ones in CM are just as bad, and it just gets worse as you go earlier on.

[Starbuck_II]

And when you complete the Dragon Disciple class.



Let's just say that WotC has horrible editing skills. The sample NPCs in the Bo9S are all incorrect for some reason or another, the ones in CM are just as bad, and it just gets worse as you go earlier on.

No, The Bo9S adaptation NPC who is RNV but not worshipper of Wee Jas isn't incorrect. He just is using the adaptation showing how you can reflavor.

But others are rid with bugs yes.

[noparlpf]

I remember seeing a CE NPC druid in one book...I might have the alignment wrong, but I know for sure that she wasn't neutral on either axis.

[etrpgb]

A fairly complete tutorial (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds) for Fochlucan Lyrist.

About the various possibilities I think the simplest is also the best:
Rogue 2/Druid 1/Bard 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8
You probably need high int or Able learner as Green Whisper has not all Knowledges in class.

Otherwise the martial fochlucan:
Bard 1/Ranger* 9/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
*Spell-less variant from Complete Warrior. You get the spells from the druid and the bard.

Some other ideas (http://crystalkeep.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3939).

Off topic: I find fun the whole ``FAQ is not RAW''. What is the point of FAQ then?

[Big Fau]

Off topic: I find fun the whole ``FAQ is not RAW''. What is the point of FAQ then?

The FAQ is largely a collection of common questions sent into CustServ compiled into a single location. It is little more than a Q&A that CustServ asked actual DMs who happen to be employed by WotC what their opinion on the matter is.

Said DMs were, more often than not, completely unfamiliar with the work in question (for works such as Magic of Incarnum) or who had given the work a cursory glance (for the Bo9S and MiC).

Very rarely, they actually asked the writers of the books in question.


In other words, the FAQ is a load of crap from people who sometimes play, but are not directly tied to the creation of the books themselves. Advice given by the FAQs is best either ignored or taken with a grain of salt, as they often contradict themselves.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Considering those rules only appear in CWar and CArc, and that they don't appear in the in the primary source for Prg. Classes (the DMG) it is safe to assume that those particular rules only apply to the Prg. Classes in said books, otherwise we have problems such as the Schrodinger Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest

Yep, that was what I was getting at.

[Optimator]

The FAQ is largely a collection of common questions sent into CustServ compiled into a single location. It is little more than a Q&A that CustServ asked actual DMs who happen to be employed by WotC what their opinion on the matter is.

Said DMs were, more often than not, completely unfamiliar with the work in question (for works such as Magic of Incarnum) or who had given the work a cursory glance (for the Bo9S and MiC).

Very rarely, they actually asked the writers of the books in question.


In other words, the FAQ is a load of crap from people who sometimes play, but are not directly tied to the creation of the books themselves. Advice given by the FAQs is best either ignored or taken with a grain of salt, as they often contradict themselves.
Well put. Its usefulness is dubious at best.

[etrpgb]

And what about an evil spy from the enemy?
You need Wis 14 and Cha 14 but it should be not a problem.

1 Bard (Heighten Spell)
2 Druid
3 Druid
4 Druid (Versatile Spellcaster)
5 Bard
6 Blighter
7 Blighter
8 Rogue
9 Rogue
10 Bard
11 Bard
12 Bard
13 Fochlucan Lyrist
14 Fochlucan Lyrist
15 Fochlucan Lyrist
16 Fochlucan Lyrist
17 Fochlucan Lyrist
18 Fochlucan Lyrist
19 Fochlucan Lyrist
20 Fochlucan Lyrist

Or... a little forced.

1 Bard (Heighten Spell)
2 Druid
3 Druid (Versatile Spellcaster)
4 Druid
5 Bard
6 Blighter (Alternate Source Spell)
7 Blighter
8 Blighter
9 Rogue
10 Rogue
11 Sublime Chord
12 Sublime Chord
13 Sublime Chord
14 Fochlucan Lyrist
15 Fochlucan Lyrist
16 Fochlucan Lyrist
17 Fochlucan Lyrist
18 Fochlucan Lyrist
19 Fochlucan Lyrist
20 Fochlucan Lyrist